cross training and forms collecting

[SevenStar]

From various threads on various forums, I've realized that not everbody makes a distinction between these two. People think that merely speding a year or less in one style and then going to another, not having a solid foundation in any of them, etc. is cross training. In my eyes, that is forms collecting, not cross training. What are your thoughts?

[Royal Dragon]

Yup, that's why I only work about 3 sets, mostly one is a holding posture set for the conditionig, and the other two are pretty short fundemental sets.

If I have a partner, I don't even do any more than warm up with it, I prefer all two man work of the sets techniques.

[apoweyn]

Right there with you Sevenstar. The crux of crosstraining is that you have a coherent framework to filter new ideas through. Can't develop that without putting some serious time in. Style hopping is a world apart.

[scotty1]

I don't think anyones going to disagree with you on here.

Apart from the fact that you're right, I don't think they'd admit it.:)

[MasterKiller]

People think that merely speding a year or less in one style and then going to another, not having a solid foundation in any of them, etc. is cross training. In my eyes, that is forms collecting, not cross training. What are your thoughts? Not all styles do forms, right? If you spend 1 year in BJJ, and 1 year in MT, not really getting a solid foundation in either, is that technique collecting or cross-training?

waiting for the ubiquitous "1 year in MT is better than 5 years in CMA...." :D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Not all styles do forms, right? If you spend 1 year in BJJ, and 1 year in MT, not really getting a solid foundation in either, is that technique collecting or cross-training?

Good point. Forms collecting = style hopping.

[David Jamieson]

I don't know if you would be able to collect to many forms as a beginner in each style.

most kungfu teachers won't teach the forms of their style until a foundation is set.

if you have a foundation and go looking for new forms, what harm is there in that?

if you train consistently with resisting opponents, your style will reveal itself over time anyway regardless of all the forms you have.

having said that, i enjoy learning one or two new forms a year from a different style. this year it's wing chun for me:D so far so good.

cheers

[rogue]

Agree 7*. Goes hand in hand with JKD guys discarding what is useless and not knowing how a technique should be used. I think we have a horn of plenty on the table when it comes to exposure to other martial arts but many don't have the disclpline not to gorge themselves.

[scotty1]

"most kungfu teachers won't teach the forms of their style until a foundation is set."

That may not be the case in a lot of schools.

[MasterKiller]

That may not be the case in a lot of schools. There are foundation-building forms (which most people start with) and then there are application-building forms. I think a lot teachers fail to make this distinction to their students.

[Mika]

I agree.

To avoid any terminology crises, I would say 'forms' could mean a collection of techniques, as well, and not only Kuens.

This matter has long puzzled me. Hailing from somewhere else, I found the American acceptance of this type of approach to martial arts a little peculiar. It is OK to have trained several arts in a relatively short period of time (say, 5 arts in 5 years).
I am NOT saying this doesn't happen anywhere else - it does - but it seems to me that in the States it is fairly well accepted outside the actual MA circles. We could easily enter a philosophical discussion on modern cultures and so on, but...;)

Style hopping, however, would be the same as majoring in business for a year, then in geology for 6 months, then in chemistry for one semester, etc.
End result: not much :D

As we all know, the real aspects of any style are revealed AND understood only after several years of hard training, and in many cases only when the student has proven himself or herself to the Sifu. Of course, what I mean by 'real aspects' is open to speculation, but y'all know what I mean..;)

If more people would realize that really learning a martial art takes time, it would be much easier for many of us (the fact* is that most martial art students have tried several arts, and relatedly, many teachers spend a lot of time teaching students who soon disappear).
Devoted students make devoted Sifus make devoted schools => everyone wins, especially the art in question. But naturally, there is room all kinds of people and mindsets. Live and let live :)

Mika

*Not really a fact as much as it is an educated guess.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Mika
... As we all know, the real aspects of any style are revealed AND understood only after several years of hard training, and in many cases only when the student has proven himself or herself to the Sifu. Of course, what I mean by 'real aspects' is open to speculation, but y'all know what I mean..;)

If more people would realize that really learning a martial art takes time, it would be much easier for many of us...
Nicely put! Kind'a like going back to the basics and finding more layers to the technique, that takes time and practice, as well as guidence from your Sifu.

[SifuAbel]

If they spend a only a little time in each school then they are only "collecting" beginner forms.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Not all styles do forms, right? If you spend 1 year in BJJ, and 1 year in MT, not really getting a solid foundation in either, is that technique collecting or cross-training?

waiting for the ubiquitous "1 year in MT is better than 5 years in CMA...." :D

I would consider it style hopping, but of course, 1 year in MT is better than 5 years in CMA. :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
If they spend a only a little time in each school then they are only "collecting" beginner forms.

but would you consider that colecting or cross training?

[SifuAbel]

I would concider that masterbation and a giant waste of time.

[SevenStar]

since you consider that masterbation, do you concur that those guys did actually master something?

[Royal Dragon]

Question for SC guy,
Do you think it is better to learn a bunch of stuff in 5 years, or spend the first 5 years really working a single system, before branching out?

[Water Dragon]

sc_guy has repeatedly slammed the correct onto the concrete while screaming, "ARE YOU SCARE YET?!?!?!?!"

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sc_guy
If one can not stay in horse stance for at least 3 minutes then his throwing will be weak.

That's the only part of that post I disagree with. That would imply that judoka and other grappling styles that don't do stance training have weak throws...

[Mika]

Yup, good points y'all have.

1) What is cross-training?

If I had to define that, I would say cross-training has more to do with MMA than any traditional martial arts, Chinese or otherwise. That in and of itself is not good or bad or right or wrong.

But one could cross-train in traditional arts, as well. However, learning one art fairly well - at least the basics of it - would be almost necessary. We all know it is easier to learn and especially understand other martial arts once we have a solid understanding of one. This is debatable, I know, but if you just play along here, you will understand what I am trying to say.

2) All the aspects of fighting listed (by sc_guy) are included at least in Choy Lee Fut. So, it is not necessary to cross-train to become a well-rounded fighter or martial artist.

3) Everything depends on the goals. Always. How well would I do against my brother-in-law who is a black belt judoka (studied that art since 1985)? We will never find out, but it would be hard to guess...would be interesting, too...;)

I have two points here.

It is virtually impossible to the bulk of us to be good at all ranges of fighting. This can only be done after a very long (what is long? 10 years? 15 years? what is good? got me there...;)) period of time and having put in a lot of effort under a good teacher. In other words, usually only professional fighters attain this level of expertise.

Also, is it necessary to be an expert at all ranges? The simple fact is that with everything else being equal (okay, everything else is NEVER equal, but philosophically), the person who has more experience in one range, usually can handle himself or herself better than the person who has kind of tried to learn everything at the same time. Naturally, time is a factor as well, so the all-rounded person might do okay after, say, 15 years of training. Then again, that other person has become even stronger at his or her range during that same time...;)

That is neither here nor there, but reference to real life should be found in that. Factors affecting the outcome of a fight are multiple, but when dissected, these variables always surface.

So, what I said about forms collecting in reference to going to college applies here, too. The more one tries to learn, the harder it is to really learn.

However, learning basics of all ranges is necessary to be able to understand fighters from other styles. If I am not mistaken, in the olden days the fighters would study other stylists very carefully to learn how to counter their techniques. This was actually vital at the time and was one of the reasons - understandably - why school doors were kept tightly closed when inner circle disciples were studying with the Sifu.

Of course, if one style offers a wide variety of material, it should be taken into account. Use it. If it all is included in one style, that is always the best way to go as the techniques compliment each other, teaching methods are familiar, etc.
But it is not necessary to try to be an expert at all ranges. Learning the most useful moves and knowing how to counter them should be enough for most. IMHO.

But it all depends on the goals...;)

Just some thoughts...:)

//mika

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mika

2) All the aspects of fighting listed (by sc_guy) are included at least in Choy Lee Fut. So, it is not necessary to cross-train to become a well-rounded fighter or martial artist.

CLF has in depth ground grappling?

It is virtually impossible to the bulk of us to be good at all ranges of fighting.

It's not so much an issue of being good, but more of experience. I am better equipped to deal with kickers, for example, if I have trained with them and know what they do.

Also, is it necessary to be an expert at all ranges?

Not at all. Once again, you're not trying to be a master of all trades, only competency

Learning the most useful moves and knowing how to counter them should be enough for most. IMHO.


How are you going to learn them? by trying to teach them to yourself, or by training with someone who is good at them?

\

[SifuAbel]

A more general view of crosstraining is simply the difference between long range and close quarter fighting. How you go about each is up to your preference and body type. How far into each is up to your basic strategy.

[Mika]

7, yes, Choy Lee Fut does have ground fighting. The way it works in CLF is that the ranges are taught - and I am talking in-depth teaching; all ranges are covered fairly quickly, but obviously (available time, ability to learn, etc.) not in great detail - from "outside in", if that makes any sense. Thus, seeing CLF ground techniques is not very common as only very advanced students practice them in a serious manner.
Or so I am told...;)

By asking how important being able to fight in all ranges is was not meant to dispute anything anyone had said in this thread, but more as a philosophical question. When it comes down to it, EVERYTHING (in life, not just martial arts) depends on the goals. If one is happy just learning an art because it is beautiful and relaxing and doesn't care about how well he or she could use the techniques in a street fight, that would be that person's prerogative. If another person wants to learn as much about fighting and various techniques as is possible, it is his right to go out and learn more. To each his own :)

To answer your question, if fighting is the focus, then learning new material from another person would be more effective (however anyone wants to define that word in this context). If one simply wants to explore, I suppose self-teaching could offer worthwhile experiences.

But to come back to the original question, I would say again that learning the fundamentals of one art really well (5 years of good practice should suffice for most) is recommended before branching out. Then again, many variables come into play here, and sometimes that might not be necessary, especially if we are not talking about traditional arts. Also, in relation to that statement, some of the MMA schools have overlapping techniques, so that would even moreso defend the position of utilizing cross-training sooner than in that mentioned 5 years.

It all depends &c...;)

Just my 2 cents :)

//mika

[MonkeySlap Too]

Today's MMA world has more in common with the 'old days' of CMA than most would think.

[Royal Dragon]

Aggreed

[Vash]

"The Gee Gong would always work even you tell your opponent ahead of the time"

NOTHING always works.

NOTHING.

And, as an aside, I'd much sooner have tested technique than theoritical training. You shouldn't rely on the forms; train them, but don't rely on them.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Today's MMA world has more in common with the 'old days' of CMA than most would think.

true.

[Chang Style Novice]

SC Guy -

It sounds like the gee gong you are talking about is simply extraordinary physical attributes. Now, it's true that these can be developed, but what happens when you meet someone with similar physical attributes?

That's what Vash is talking about that nothing works every time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sc_guy

The Gee Gong is something that you developed from forms, stances, uphill running, single leg weight hopping, equipment training and obtain some ability that most people do not have. The Gee Gong would always work even you tell your opponent ahead of the time. Your opponent still can not stop your attack. Gee Gong is hard to develop because it's boring and painful and gradually it will be lost in the future generation. This approach was never used in Judo in the first place. The major difference between SC and Judo. Having discussed this with many Judo players and they all believed that Gee Gong approach is not proper for our centry. Simplely nobody will do it - too boaring.

Not true. Judo does apparatus training - instead of the pulley, we use inner tubes tied around a pole, practicing sweeps on tires, etc. One of the guys I train with did 900 repetitions daily with the inner tube (300 reps each of his three favorite throws) while he was getting ready for the world championships. That said, nothing ALWAYS works.

The "Wen - hip throw or waist lifting", "Twai - shoulder throw or bowing", "Twan Don - firemen carrier", "Bao - Embracing", all require to have a strong horse stance. The power is completely coming from "straight up both legs from a low horse stance". If your opponent weight more than 300 lbs then without strong horse stance of "3 - 5 minutes" ability, how can you apply your technique on such a big guy. Of course you may switch to different techniques but what if you don't have other techniques to switch to?

Not sure I agree with that one either - not completely, anyway.you need strong legs, but not necessarily a 3-5 min. horse stance. I have done the fireman's on a guy that weighs right at 300. I don't have a 5 min horse stance, but I can squat over 400 lbs. I have strong legs. I've had that same technique done on me by guys who are WAY smaller than me - they are wrestlers with strong legs.

Who said a "dependable technique" which work on anybody with any size and speed is easy to come by? It takes a lots of tedious, painful training time.

I completely agree.

[Chang Style Novice]

Nah, it's always possible to be a sore loser and complain that you would have one if only this or that.

It's not the best choice, but it is an available choice. And one that many choose.

[SevenStar]

I think they exist - but I think that the majority of them exist in the sport fighting world. professional level fighters train their arses off. Sport fighters in general train hard - they have to if they are going to win. Of course, you will have the ones who aren't big on competition and slack more than others, but a competition based school is still going to make sure you're in decent enough shape to hold your own in a tourney.

[PT-Kali]

I don't see any big problems learning different forms as long as you don't go overboard with it, learn most of the form's applications, and continue to train with it. From my understanding of traditional CMA, this was done a lot back in history. One story in particular is how under some Hung Gar lineages they teach Bung Bo (a Mantis form), that was picked up by the then master for whatever reason.

I've picked up a couple of Chinese forms (e.g. Black Tiger, Tongbeichuan) that I enjoy practicing even though I'm a kali-man, I find them good for developing leg strength, coordination, etc.

[Royal Dragon]

Do you know anybody be able to stay in "horse stance" and finish his dinner (about 30 minutes)? I know somebody who could in the past 100 years. Do you expect anybody who will have that ability in the future? I doubt it!

I know a Tai Tzu guy or two that require 1 hour in low horse for the Black sash level (or what thier equivelant of it is).

If you get the young ones, highschool aged, you can get them to do whatever you want, becasue they just don't know anybetter. It's easy to get them all caught up in the legands, fantasies and what not of being a warrior. They will train that hard just to be cooler than the kid next to them in line (and for the "Chicks")

When I used to teach, I started out with a watered down version of what I did comming up, for the Kids program. Later, I added adult classes, and saw that I had to water the kids program down for THEM!. Funny thing is, after slowly progressing the kids, I had 13-14 year olds holding 3 minute Horse stances (I made a game out of it, winners sparred first). I KNOW if I had kept the program going, I'd have them holding 10 or more by now.

If you get them when they are 10, teach them a system heavy on forms, drills, Qi Gong and conditioning, keep the apps simple and fun. Then when they turn 18 really go back, and explore the content of the forms, one form at a time and really make them fighters, there is no reason why the traditions cannot be preserved.

[Vash]

Royal Dragon has taken the correct, dressed it up like a 12 year old boy, had it sit in a dark, locked closet, and screamed through the door, "Who's Your Daddy, and What Does He Do?!"

:eek:

[Becca]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I know a Tai Tzu guy or two that require 1 hour in low horse for the Black sash level (or what thier equivelant of it is).

May systems require 1 hour or more, Pai Lum included. It is even rumored that those testing for black belt must hold it while the testing Sifus eat breakfast.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL @ Vash!!

Becca, your absolutely right. There are still sytems that hold to the old requirements. I am willing to bet that there are just as many, if not more of them today as there were a generation ago. The issue, is there are 10 times more Crap schools as well, so the good ones get drowned out in the flood of medocrity.

[WinterPalm]

Royal Dragon- 400 pd squat! That is impressive. I think leg strength is very good. People say that horse stance is not good because you don't move, but I find when I move, because of horse stance, my legs are solid and my gait is very smooth. Some can squat a lot and not do a very long horse stance. Some can do a horse stance for a long time and barely squat their body weight. As far as throwing goes, I don't have much training other than technique and have learned that leverage and body mechanics have more importance than a heavy squat or five hour horse stance, having either, however, can just increase the potence of the throw.

PT Kali-where did you study Black Tiger? Was it Hak Fu Pai, that is the style I study.

As far as cross-training goes, I spent time in various arts for over a year, learning a bit here and a bit there and eventually found the school I am at. Being thankful for that does not negate the fact that I brought with me next to nothing. Tai Chi for a year gave me increased flexibility and knowledge of my body and how it moves and how to increase awareness but as far as fighting, nothing was learnt. Over two years now with my Sifu and I am starting to grasp the movements and intentions of fighting in a specific system.

I don't think cross-training is unnecessary because one's chosen art should contain enough to counter anything thrown at one. That being said it does take many years and I know I am not even close to that. Above all else, I think confidence in yourself and your Sifu's teaching in necessary, for without it you will lose everything.

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, that was SevenStar with the 400 pound squat.

As for the horse stance, I see it as a method to build proper structure, and develop muscular endurance. Yes, it will build quite a bit of strength too, but once you can hold it a good 3 minutes, I think you've pretty much got all the strength developemt your going to get out of it. Unless you start doing it with weigthed vests and such.

I feel a horse is part of a well rounded lower body developemnt system that includes various types of squats, with and with out weights, lots of jumping, flexibily/range of motion training, and holding ALL the major stances, including the Horse up to 10 minutes each.

[Vash]

Don't forget physical therapy for patella tracking problems!

That sh!t'll make your legs ripped, powerful, and flexible!

Bizzatch!

[PT-Kali]

Winterpalm- I got the Black tiger form from a NSL school. The sifu there has been generous enough for me to learn some forms from him privately. Namely, the Black Tiger, Tongbeichuan, and next is Er Lu Mei Fu Chuan. I think it's great that he's excepted me as a private student, since CMA aren't my predominant art. Believe me, most sifu I inquired about learning from either shrugged me off or wanted to charge me like $200 an hour to learn from, I guess since I wasn't one of their regular students. I can go to just about any escrima, kali, or even most silat schools and be welcomed with open arms, but the Chinese styles it seems likes to keep their "secrets". At least that's my experience.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WinterPalm

I don't think cross-training is unnecessary because one's chosen art should contain enough to counter anything thrown at one. That being said it does take many years and I know I am not even close to that.

IMO, that's all the more reason to cross train. I don't want to wait 7 years to learn how to counter a double leg for example. Not only that, but I'd learn better double leg defenses from a grappler that deals with them all the time than I would from say, black tiger.

[SifuAbel]

Thats another question, who is going to double leg you?

[David Jamieson]

I think "cross training" could be defined a little more clearly here.

A lot of kungfu training is in fact cross training.

You have basics, drills, forms, two man drills, bag work, target work, weapons, sparring, etc etc.

Often times people will put in a run or two (or three) a week and do some regular cal at home with their practice.

Some guys take on a traditional martial art and a competitive martial art either ring based fighting of some sort or competitive forms, etc etc.

After 10 years in any given style, I think you've probably cross trained a lot of things.

Ultimately, nobody has it "all" lol. ...for now. Not for lack of trying on some guys parts though.

cheers

[WinterPalm]

Sevenstar- true enough. A grappler will be wise to the ways of double leg take downs, but again, he must be confident in his technique that he isn't going to hit the ground from someone slipping away with quick footwork. Or say he knows how to deal with a grapple of any amount of legs or arms, but what about a side kick to the stomach? His training may lack this because he is used to training for taking out kicks from his training comrades. I'm not saying they don't train for kicks, but what about someone with a very good kick-such as the grapple point about knowledge and focus.
Either way the practioner must be competent and confident in his ability whether it be jiujitsu or black tiger.

[MonkeySlap Too]

sifuabel asked 7*: Thats another question, who is going to double leg you?

That, good sir, would be me.

[Merryprankster]

Or me... or anybody who wrestled in high school. Old habits die hard....




he must be confident in his technique that he isn't going to hit the ground from someone slipping away with quick footwork.

Footwork isn't going to save you here. You need more than that--a knowledge of pressure and angles.

Also, a well-balanced shot results in recovery to standing, not falling over onto the ground. The middle of a shot is a well balanced, strong position that can take pressure from any angle--not unlike a good stance--ie, it's weaker in some directions than others, but allows the ability to adjust quickly and smoothly.

A drunken fratboy leg dive tackle is significantly different than a shot.

[SifuAbel]

So thats two with monkey and merry, who else?

Frankly, I don't think the number of those who do a double leg on purpose is very high. And from those the number attacking you are even slimmer.

"Footwork isn't going to save you here. "

This is a bit fatalistic. It can happen and it has. This has been my problem with the grapple guys online for years, the notion that no matter what I do I "will go down" and that nothing I do can stop that yet many have tried and have had a real tough time doing so. Not that its impossible to get me down, but for some the cost was more than the worth of the attempt. For others it wasn't but didn't always leave them where they wanted to be.

[MonkeySlap Too]

The catch here SA, is that 99% of the folks who dismiss throwing skills have no idea how to really deal with it. I also find the MMA attitude over bearing at times, but I'm sure the guys who only did kicky-punchy thought the same of my crew when we were throwing thier @sses all over the place in the pre-UFC days. The rreal point that most MMA guys need to make, is that to get really good at beating something, you gotta fight against it.

Which, it sounds like you do, so no big deal.

[SifuAbel]

"kicky-punchy" LOL is this point fighting?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Nah - but back in the 80's everyone seemed to forget that throwing is part of CMA - and the others that wuld come fight were TKD or kickboxing types...I blame it on a LOT of very bad CMA - people teaching who should not have been.

Course, I still see a lot of it that way...

[Merryprankster]

This is a bit fatalistic. It can happen and it has. This has been my problem with the grapple guys online for years, the notion that no matter what I do I "will go down" and that nothing I do can stop that yet many have tried and have had a real tough time doing so. Not that its impossible to get me down, but for some the cost was more than the worth of the attempt. For others it wasn't but didn't always leave them where they wanted to be.

You only addressed half of what I said to make it look like I'm being an idiot. I made it quite clear that footwork is only part of the solution. Understanding pressure and angles is a necessity. Unless you are lightning quick or have an incredible sense of timing, or the other guy just telegraphs it, it's hard to avoid a shot strictly with footwork.

[SifuAbel]

"I blame it on a LOT of very bad CMA - people teaching who should not have been."

And sometimes they were teaching things under the name of kung fu when in fact it wasn't. Like all these kungfu/karate schools that teach soemthing yet else.

Still, there is actual bad kung fu out there. But in my experience its not 99 % . Its maybe 50%. Thats the way it was in fla anyway. Which were mostly disgruntled students that broke away and started their own cult, er, school. :D This number is about schools not styles.

To get back on topic I'll repeat my over all opinion. Cross training is about learning to fight in long range, close quarter and entangled. How you go about do it is soley up to you. There is no perfect formula.

[SifuAbel]

"Unless you are lightning quick [and]or have an incredible sense of timing,"

thats me. :D

No, chief, no attempt at makeing you look like an idiot. People can read.

And I agree footwork without a remedy is no solution. The guy is still in play. So you have to act before he can regroup.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Thats another question, who is going to double leg you?

I think you really underestimate the number of people who wrestle in high school and/or college in the united states.

[SifuAbel]

How many of them turn into muggers?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
How many of them turn into muggers?

How many people will try to mug you with their bare hands, rather than with a gun?

A better question would be, "How many of them would be likely to get drunk and take a swing at you in a bar?"

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by FatherDog


How many people will try to mug you with their bare hands, rather than with a gun?

A better question would be, "How many of them would be likely to get drunk and take a swing at you in a bar?"

The answer to both, none.

I don't go to bars. :D

But If I did it would be most of them. Taking a swing isn't doing a double leg.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SifuAbel


The answer to both, none.

I don't go to bars. :D

But If I did it would be most of them. Taking a swing isn't doing a double leg.

I was using "taking a swing" in a figurative sense. If the drunken *******, or road-raging *******, or general ******* that you get into a confrontation with is someone who's wrestled in the past, a double leg is far from an unlikely possibility.

[SifuAbel]

IMHO, the odds are slim that said drunk is a wrestler that can perform at peak while inebriated.

Here, the "what if" factor is a stretch.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
IMHO, the odds are slim that said drunk is a wrestler that can perform at peak while inebriated.

Here, the "what if" factor is a stretch.

Drunk was just an example. A poor one, since you don't go to bars.

My point was that a non-trivial portion of Americans have some wrestling experience. Assuming that a double-leg is something that's rarely going to come up 'in the street' is not something I'd feel comfortable doing.

[Royal Dragon]

IMHO, the odds are slim that said drunk is a wrestler that can perform at peak while inebriated.

Reply]
Never underestimate a guy who's "Fighti'n Drunk" , especially if he's Irish, and from Chicago.

[Vash]

Indeed. EVERYONE knows Drunken Kung Fu originated in Ireland, was transplanted to, and evolved in, Scotland (go Scots!), and was eventually given to the Chinese martial artists via some dude who got drunk and was kicked out of his home by his rather thick wife.

In fact, the original name was "Drunken Dumb @$$," but was changed for fear the children would hear to "Drunken Dumb Fool."
It's current title is most often pronounced "Drunken Young Tool" to describe the most wasted 7th Grade graduate at the local Wal-Green's parking lot.

As an aside, I'd love to learn a Drunken form.

[SifuAbel]

Lets break it down even further. How far removed from high school can you be without losing ability? I'm not worried about some pot bellied 40 year old doing a double leg on me.

I'd say the chances for all these things happeneing at once are slim.

It would be an exercise to go a mall and ask if the average person even knows what a double leg is. They'd probably think its a new pair of pants.

How many people per year even get in a wrestling team? 100 % of the boys? 50 % , 10% , 1%

Lets say there are 200 boys in the sophmore class, are all of them on the team? lets say there a 1000 boys in the whole school. How many actually get on and are any good?

These numbers are shrinking into the void.

Heck, how many practcing JJ supermen are getting into bar fights on a daily basis?

[Vash]

SA:

Are you saying that training defense against this type of takedown is pointless, or that it is being overemphasized?

Just for my own clarification.

[SifuAbel]

Not that its pointless. Know your opponent is only logical.

But, its being drawn into this big drama making it seem that there is a wayward mutant high school wrestler on every corner just waiting to get you.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
Sevenstar- true enough. A grappler will be wise to the ways of double leg take downs, but again, he must be confident in his technique that he isn't going to hit the ground from someone slipping away with quick footwork. Or say he knows how to deal with a grapple of any amount of legs or arms, but what about a side kick to the stomach? His training may lack this because he is used to training for taking out kicks from his training comrades. I'm not saying they don't train for kicks, but what about someone with a very good kick-such as the grapple point about knowledge and focus.
Either way the practioner must be competent and confident in his ability whether it be jiujitsu or black tiger.

That's why I advocate cross training. In that post from you I quoted, it sounded as if you were saying that you can wait however long to learn how to deal with grappling tactics. My point was that

1. your style may not have such techniques, and if they do, they may not be as effective as those of a grappler

2. why wait all those years to learn it?

the same is true for a grappler. I'm not gonna go to a bjj school to learn how to strike. I'll cross train in a striking art.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Also, a well-balanced shot results in recovery to standing, not falling over onto the ground. The middle of a shot is a well balanced, strong position that can take pressure from any angle--not unlike a good stance--ie, it's weaker in some directions than others, but allows the ability to adjust quickly and smoothly.

A drunken fratboy leg dive tackle is significantly different than a shot.

I think that's what many people fail to realize.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Lets break it down even further. How far removed from high school can you be without losing ability? I'm not worried about some pot bellied 40 year old doing a double leg on me.

I'd say the chances for all these things happeneing at once are slim.

It would be an exercise to go a mall and ask if the average person even knows what a double leg is. They'd probably think its a new pair of pants.

How many people per year even get in a wrestling team? 100 % of the boys? 50 % , 10% , 1%

Lets say there are 200 boys in the sophmore class, are all of them on the team? lets say there a 1000 boys in the whole school. How many actually get on and are any good?

These numbers are shrinking into the void.

Heck, how many practcing JJ supermen are getting into bar fights on a daily basis?

then you must factor in who's fighting in the first place - chances are, it's gonna be a younger guy. if it is, then he may not be that far removed from his training. A guy in his 30's just joined my bjj class who still has an awesome shot.

with the chances being you will get into it with a younger guy, there's machisimo factor - of those 1000 boys, the ones that are good (and possibly ****y, due to the fact that they know they are good and are too young to be humble about it) will be the ones not backing down to any type of confrontation, especially in a bar or any other public place.

When I was in HS and college, the majority of friends I had that fought alot were wrestlers.

[Merryprankster]

No, chief, no attempt at makeing you look like an idiot. People can read.

Ah. I'm overstating the case. I was punchy when I wrote it and couldn't think of the right words, which are "It's only half of my argument." Besides which, I certainly don't need YOUR help in looking like an idiot. I do quite fine enough on my own.


I'm not worried about some pot bellied 40 year old doing a double leg on me.

You may need to be. :D Some of those pot bellied 40 year olds are dangerous. In all seriousness, MOST of the people who wrestled were decent athletes and once the pattern was ingrained, it's like riding a bike. I hadn't actually shot in on anybody or gotten on the mat for over 5 years, but when I finally did, I really wasn't that rusty at all. Oh, my timing was probably a tad off, but it was plenty good enough for the most part.

As for how many of them are getting into bar fights down the road, haven't a clue.

Why don't we look at it from a multiple opponent scenario? If you get a couple or three guys, I bet one tries to grab and restrain you so that the others can pound. If you know how to deal effectively and quickly with a good shot or good body lock, then dealing with the bad version becomes a piece of cake. These are both things that are simple to learn, leave you in an upright position when you get good at it, and the rewards are worth the relatively minor investment.

It's much like dealing with a hook vice the drunken roundhouse swipe.

[Mika]

Originally posted by sc_guy
If you let him taste the "reality" in the 1st day then his MA training direction will be set correctly for the rest of his life.

Hmm...I see your point. Do you not think, though, that this approach might be a little too harsh for most would-be martial arts students in modern society?

Of course, if the goal is to be a tough fighter, this might work.

Since this thread has taken a slight turn from page 1, let me ask y'all something: is the goal to be a well-rounded fighter as soon as possible or is it something else? If something else, what?

Peace :)

//mika

[David Jamieson]

"...there is a wayward mutant high school wrestler on every corner just waiting to get you."

yep, sounds like KFM to me. :D

A couple of points of observation from my short life:

1-people out there getting into beefs in the local pub are generally crappy fighters anyway, half the time this stuff happens they're drunk.

2-A lot of people "think" they are more than they really are when it comes to ability to defend oneself.

3- people think that movie fu is real and it works the way it's shown on tv.

4-people think that because someone gets in a ring and fights that they are a good fighter, better than people who don't get into rings.

5-Most people in the martial arts haven't been in a for real fight including a large number of instructor level people.

6- Quite a lot of people think that training in wrestling will save them on the street, same goes for kungfu or karate.

and 7- there is no training against a bullet.

So my point is, Just train if you enjoy it. If you like ring fighting, then do that, but please recognize it for what it is and don't give all these B.S attributes to people because they ring fight. If you really want to fight for real, you will find that the circumstances are wholly different than what you currently think they are.

And just as you are not giving rose tinted attributes to tv gladiators, mind you don't project mystical abilities onto old chinese men either.

The common denominator in all of us is that we are made of flesh and blood and that can be destroyed readily in a very short period of time in any of us.

cheers

[Mika]

Kung Lek, good post :)

However - and I will say this only this once here on this forum (I have almost said it on many other threads before, so I think I should just this once) : there is a world of difference between average martial arts students and professional fighters. But the difference between true masters and those professional fighters is even greater. This difference can be measured - in both comparisons - in many aspects, not just fighting.

True masters never - I dare say, even if I am not 100% certain - post on forums like this. They rarely if ever write articles about themselves or their art. Sometimes other people do that for them and sometimes at their request (but even then there are good reasons for this). True masters are not very famous. They do what they do for reasons very different from fame and money or being tough.

Since most of us do not really know what, who, how, when, and where about these masters, we should not be so quick to even try to judge them. Our world is so very different from theirs, and since it is because of them that we can enjoy our little hobby called martial arts, we should always remember to respect them in the greatest manner.

I mean no disrespect to anyone by this message. I just felt - after having observed these conversations for almost 2 years - I should state this.

Peace :)

//mika

[Royal Dragon]

True masters never - I dare say, even if I am not 100% certain - post on forums like this. They rarely if ever write articles about themselves or their art.

Reply]
Hmm, you see Sc Master John Wang on Empty flower all the time. He seems pretty dedicated to preserving the arts through spreading them as widely as possible.

Sometimes other people do that for them and sometimes at their request (but even then there are good reasons for this). True masters are not very famous. They do what they do for reasons very different from fame and money or being tough


Reply]
Yang Jwing Ming, Lian Shou Yu, Adam Hsu, Liao Wu Chang (I have several comercial videos of him & his Tai Tzu & Monkey)and the guy who founded Tagou, Liu Baoshan (In think that's him, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

Masters, are masters, and most of the good ones become well known. The bad ones do too, fame is not nessasarily indicative of a quality master, but it does not nessasarily rule quality out either. Those who are concerned about the arts dying out, MAKE themselves public figures, to spread it as far, and wide as they can, because they know if they don't, the numbers will dwindle till the true art becomes extinct.

[Merryprankster]

However - and I will say this only this once here on this forum (I have almost said it on many other threads before, so I think I should just this once) : there is a world of difference between average martial arts students and professional fighters. But the difference between true masters and those professional fighters is even greater. This difference can be measured - in both comparisons - in many aspects, not just fighting.

Wow! You must be able to read minds to testify as to what TRUE MASTERS think.

Is TRUE MASTERS like REAL CMA or the GOOD GRAPPLER?

[MonkeySlap Too]

MP has double-legged the correct, and slammed it to the mat. Ooh, there's some gravel.

[Mika]

RD, true, you are right.

Merry, no, I do not. Most people here do not, either. That kind of was the point I was trying to make.

Like I said, what I was referring to has been evident in certain posts on this forum often enough that the distinction could be made for everyone's benefit (many here are just beginning their journey in martial arts). I meant no harm by it.

The last thing I would like to do is a stirrup. So, I won't. If someone took my post as such, I apologize. That was not my intention.

I still stand by my previous post with the clarifications made by RD.

One last thing: dedication and true mastery are not the same thing. I know teachers who teach for a living, yet are far, far removed in their skills or other attributes from masters who have been chosen to do what they do. They all are very dedicated, but not in the same way, even if the art in question is the same.

Having said that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being dedicated. Good Heavens, just the contrary. But any guess work concerning masters one has not met or practiced with or the generalization of according matters is questionable. That's all I am trying to say.

And this thread is about something else, anyways, so let's just focus on that. So, as I asked before, what are the goals in one's training?

//mika

[Merryprankster]

I'm hardly upset. I just think that it's presumptuous to assume that a TRUE MASTER would never post here. Masters are people, just like anybody else.

For every tale of the monk-like master, who controls their sex life, their food intake, sleep, etc, there is another tale of a master who hung out in rough places, drank like a fish, swore like a sailor and got laid like a champ all the while getting in more bar fights than we can imagine.

And there were the guys in between, too.

[SifuAbel]

Hey! I post here!! :D :p :D :p

The times dictate the medium. Its only a matter of time before the next generation of "masters" become computer savvy.

There are a good number of people here that have multiple decades of experience.

[Merryprankster]

There are masters, true masters, and Sifu Abel :D

Hey, I might be in California sometime in April. Any chance of finding out (friendly like) if I can take you down? :D

Yes, I'm proposing a friendly session (provided timing works out) where you can hit me.

[CrippledAvenger]

Just to chime in and be a voice from the peanut gallery, but I believe Merry is correct on the masters posting here thing.

[Mika]

Merry, I agree with you, if we take into consideration what SA said. In years to come, there will be more and more posts from the high up, I am sure.

As much for granted as we all can take the internet, that is not yet the case everywhere.

Merry, if I change the term true masters to Grandmasters, do we then have a common ground here? ;)

In any case, I still would like to hear someone answer my question about the goals. I am curious. If we are still talking about cross-training, that is...:D

Peace :)

//mika

[SevenStar]

so, what/who defines what a true master is?

[Mika]

7, that was THE question I wanted to avoid. No point going down that way, so let's just forget the whole concept. Those who understand my point, have no problem with this. Those who don't or who just want to dance with this, sorry...;)

sc_guy, okay, sure, why not? But I was kind of trying to say something else. Never mind, though :)

Peace :)

//mika

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mika
7, that was THE question I wanted to avoid. No point going down that way, so let's just forget the whole concept. Those who understand my point, have no problem with this. Those who don't or who just want to dance with this, sorry...;)

:D

you just killed my thread jack attempt.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
There are masters, true masters, and [uber master] Sifu Abel :D

Hey, I might be in California sometime in April. Any chance of finding out (friendly like) if I can take you down? :D

Yes, I'm proposing a friendly session (provided timing works out) where you can hit me.

Well, if I'm not traveling then sure. I leave for a stunt trip in march. I don't think you want me to hit you though.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
True masters never - I dare say, even if I am not 100% certain - post on forums like this. They rarely if ever write articles about themselves or their art.

Reply]
Hmm, you see Sc Master John Wang on Empty flower all the time. He seems pretty dedicated to preserving the arts through spreading them as widely as possible.

Sometimes other people do that for them and sometimes at their request (but even then there are good reasons for this). True masters are not very famous. They do what they do for reasons very different from fame and money or being tough


Reply]
Yang Jwing Ming, Lian Shou Yu, Adam Hsu, Liao Wu Chang (I have several comercial videos of him & his Tai Tzu & Monkey)and the guy who founded Tagou, Liu Baoshan (In think that's him, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

Masters, are masters, and most of the good ones become well known. The bad ones do too, fame is not nessasarily indicative of a quality master, but it does not nessasarily rule quality out either. Those who are concerned about the arts dying out, MAKE themselves public figures, to spread it as far, and wide as they can, because they know if they don't, the numbers will dwindle till the true art becomes extinct.

You forgot to mention Royce Gracie, Matt Thornton and Tim Cartmell. ALot of masters don't speak ENglish well or use internet much so that's why.

[Mika]

7, you asked about Choy Lee Fut ground work earlier in this thread.

Today Sisuk Mark Whelan, a highly, highly respected Choy Lee Fut Master, Grandmaster Chan Yong-Fa's trusted man, and a phenomenal full contact fighter, has answered this same question on the clfma.com forum.

Here's the original question first:

"Hi!!!
It's always good to read a story about past training sessions -it explains a lot how it should be done.The story is both interesting and inspirational.
MaWailung you have mentioned one of Chen Wanhon's favorite technique(s) kow tarn.
I know that grappling techniques are taught at the advanced level in CLF system - that is why not many people have seen actually how these techniques look in CLF.Could you or anyone say a little about standing grappling or even maybe ground grappling techniques in CLF.How does it look like in comparison to judo or wrestling double leg or single leg take down?Or maybe these techniques in CLf are mostly based on sweeps like kow tarn?Kow tarn looks a little to me like judo o-soto gari (in this technique leg goes similar to what you do in kow tarn but one hand is pulling oponents arm and the second arm pushes oponent's chest - the arm movement is similar to what you do when you chenge direction of car by moving the stering wheel).
Could anyone share some light about take downs in CLf in comparison to i.e. wrestling take downs? are they similar or different?
In judo throw techniqes are divided in thre main categories - arm throws, body(hip) throws and leg throws - that means e.g. in arm throws you arm are leading force in executing a throw.How does it look like in CLF?Any similarities?Kow tarn by judo standards would be a leg throw.
Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Rob"

And Sisuk MaWailung's answer:

"Choy Lee Fut take downs, throws locks should be taught from the day the students joins the Gwoon. The leg throws are a little more easier to comphrehend than the multiple locks and throws and so we start here.

Kow Tarn - a foot trip or throw using the heel and lower leg. Using the Bak Wa Bay Kuet- fighting theories that includes the three internal gates and the three external gates. The throws/takedowns use the three external gates. 1. Legs 2. Hips 3.Shoulders
Kow Tarn should be practiced by placing your heel behind the partners leg and drawing the leg back @ 45 as fast as possible. The hips and shoulders are used to increase the throw. The drwaing of the heel is to uproot and place off balance your partner. Kow Tarn is to farn ching - create imbalance and to take controll of your partners balance. Kow tarn should be executed as if you were trying to force your partner into the splits with one sudden jolt.

Train with a partner with and without hands on. Grab your partner and sweep the heel of the lead foot from under them. As you feel their balnce off centre drive them to the ground with the shoulder and wasit follow up. Do not push or pull, just drop/slam them where you stand. Move away from them to avoid ground confrontation, unless of course you are training the lok kil sarn sau!!

Chow Kirk- uplifting kick or sweep is aimed at the front or back of the lower limbs. Again it is a attack to creat imbalance of your partner. Draw the leg of your partner into a spilt by up rooting and then drawing the leg back towards you. This creates an un-natural stance and will uposet the balance for a spilt second. Then we teach a kneeling stance onto the shin or calf to force the partner down. Again slam them to the ground.

You need to move awy from the attack until the beginnner has started to learn the ground locks.

Kow Tarn, Chow Kirk, So kirk, Lok wa, Darp ma just a few leg take downs. Well some more next issue."

So, the ground work is called Lok Kil Sarn Sau.

Hope this helps :)

//mika

[Merryprankster]

I don't think you want me to hit you though.

Ummm...I'm entirely unsure how to take this. I've boxed. I've done some MT kickboxing. I'm no stranger to getting smashed around a bit. I was envisioning some modicum of protective gear for full out sparring if we choose to do that.

But no, I don't want you to hit me. That's kind of how it works...you know, not getting hit while doing stuff to the other guy. That's the general idea, right? :D

I really am approaching this in good faith. I'm just being a bit of a smart ass in my phrasing because I AM a bit of a smart ass.

[SifuAbel]

"I AM a bit of a smart ass."

Well, duhhhhhhhhhh!! :D

[Merryprankster]

Well, it's just that we've had our disagreements in the past (although I think most of them were terminology barriers) so I didn't want it to sound like I have a secret agenda or even an open one, to have a "challenge match." That's not my intent!!!

[SifuAbel]

Thats OK , MP. Usually I tell my sparring partners one thing. Follow the 11th commandment.

"Do unto others as you would have done unto you."

[Merryprankster]

So, ummm...

I guess that means, the strawberry jelly, the loofah, the five medium sized blue crabs and the hulk hands are out of the question... even if buttered?

[rogue]

LOOFAH!!!!!!! :eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

Buttered Loofah=band name!

[SifuAbel]

Please , no crabs, I don't want to shave the wookie.

:rolleyes:

Only if I get to wear a full latex dive suit.

:D

[rogue]

This thread just lurched into the disturbing sexual image zone!:eek:

[Water Dragon]

This thread has caught the ghey

[SifuAbel]

You threw ghey at this thread? For shame.

[Merryprankster]

A full latex dive suit eh?

Kind of like a shiny rubber love yam? I can dig it.

It's on! You bring the dive suit, I'll bring the chamois cloth, the windex, a package of lifesavers and a bunny costume.

[ShaolinTiger00]

WTF? pics?

[SifuAbel]

On the baseball diamond.

Bring mangos and rice.

[rogue]

OMG The correct is currently being gang raped in the prison shower by the ghey and his henchmen the faiyg and the romo.

[SifuAbel]

With rogue in the back room holding a towel and cigarettes. Dressed like a contestant from "Lets make a deal".

Wooden shoes, a too too, clown makeup, and a LA lakers jersey.

[Chang Style Novice]

I gotcher 25 gallon drum of habanero flavored astro-glide. Where do you want me to put it?

And no, I mean where do you want me to put the drum, not where do you want my to put the astro-glide.

[SifuAbel]

Oh darn, you messed up my come back.

Hmmm, thats a combo, rice, mangos, loopha, astroglide, red clay, windex, lifesavers, skittles, peanut butter, a life size statue of Rogue complete with pre applied bird droppings, scuba gear, a fire truck, a pot bellied pig, a leather clad Knifefighter as "the gimp", and a week old tuna fish sandwich. (try saying this out loud without stopping)

Ok, that will about do it. Talk about MMA.

[Chang Style Novice]

That's habanero flavored astroglide. Do you have any idea what kind of hazmat certification and EPA variances I had to go through to deliver this?

[rogue]

Got Qi?

[David Jamieson]

Try the curried chicken, I hear it's all the rage in poughkeepsie.

This place is a veritable soup of stream of conciousness kungfu chit chat. No doubt there are some genuine and bonafide masters of various arts posting here.

cheers

[Vash]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
This place is a veritable soup of stream of conciousness kungfu chit chat. No doubt there are some genuine and bonafide masters of various arts posting here.

Um . . . noooooooo. There's some martial artists describing tools which they will employ in there ****sexual gatherings.

duuuuh. :rolleyes:


























































































:(



































































































;)