Tan Tui- Is it a separate school of its own?

[taichi4eva]

Can Tan Tui be considered a separate kind of kung fu? I know it is a part of Chaquan, but it seems that many kung fu masters were said to have mastered Tan Tui Men Quan (Ku Yu Cheong of Northern Shaolin, Chiu Chi Man of Praying Mantis, even Bruce Lee).

[NorthernShaolin]

Yes, Tan T'ui can be considered a stand alone style. However, many masters reconize the value of this set have have incoperated into their curriculum. It is not only Ch'a style as you mention but most Northern styles have in the last 200 years.

It is written that if you just learn Tan Tui, you will have enough to defend your self.

There are many variations of Tan Tui such as 10, 12, 14, 16, 24 and if you conduct a search here I believe if I remember correctly, there is mention a 36 row. There is also reference of secret rows too.

[Robert Young]

taichi4eva,

Tan Tui is not really a seperate kind of kung fu. Tan Tui was used to train basic techniques such as stances, punches, kicks, and simple body moves. It is used as entry training routines in northern Chinese martial arts. Most northern Chinese martial styles use Tan Tui to train their beginners. So, it does not belong to any styles.

NorthernShaolin,

When people describe Tan Tui, they tend to glorify it. But, Tan Tui itself can not be a complete system. Don't get me wrong, it is a very very good training routine. It has its own purpose. We practice Tan tui too. It gave us solid foundation so we can practice more advance techniques. In the past, northern martial arts teachers use it to train beginners. It can be modified as long as the teachers thought the new routine can help their students. That is why there are so many differernt version of Tan Tui exists. Bottom line is that, Tan Tui is used to train basic stances, punches, kicks, and body moves. You can still use it to defend yourself to normal people. But, to fight with people with martial art background, you really need more advance training.
Just my personally opinions.

Cheers,

Robert,

[MasterKiller]

Tan Tui was a separate system all to itself before it was adopted into Northern curriculums.

[ngokfei]

Tan Tui "perhaps" existed as a stand alone style in the past but no reference exists today of it.

Even so, what did the "Original" Tan Tui look like. You have versions that go from resembling "bad karate" to very intricate and I believe advanced techniuqes and theories.

For example: the version I do has its root from the Chin Woo but in time was modified to combine rows, add others, etc.

As robert commented regarding a complete MA. I really don't see why Tan Tui couldn't be considered such if a complete MA was to include all the ranges and skills (striking, trapping, throwing and grappling/joint locking) along with qi gong infusion.

As we do our set it contains all of this and so It should be considred a complete MA.

It is true that alot of schools have adopted the rudimentary ideas of tan tui and as such have not really studied/mastered its secrets.

IMO its a great set, especially for combat. Not very pretty but very realistic.

[Robert Young]

> As robert commented regarding a complete MA. I really don't
> see why Tan Tui couldn't be considered such if a complete MA
> was to include all the ranges and skills (striking, trapping,
> throwing and grappling/joint locking) along with qi gong
> infusion.
You have said it. Tan Tui does not have enough materials in all the ranges and skills (striking, trapping, throwing and grappling/joint locking). You have to include all the ranges and skills to it to make it complete. Tan Tui is not designed to make a complete system from the beginning. That is not its purpose. Don't make thing too complicated. Other forms have their purpose. Tan Tui is the same, It has its purpose. If it is a complete system, then there is no need to have other empty hand forms in most of northern shaolin systems.

Tan Tui does have the basics. But to be really good at all range and skills, you really need other training. There are many more ways of punches, kickings, throwing and grabbing in other forms. There are also other moves like steps, application combinations and many others that are also missing in Tan-Tui. CMA is not just punches and kicks.

On the other hand, Tan Tui is a very good training routines. Without it, most of our students could not build up a good foundation. That is why most northern shaolin systems have it.

We use Tan Tui as a training routines for beginners and intermediate level students. There are lot more things that need to train to make a student to get a higher level of skills.
If you mant to make Tan Tui a complete empty hand training system, you need to add a lot more materials to it. Then, it is not the original Tan-Tui routine any more.

[NorthernShaolin]

According to the archives in China, it is reconized as a stand alone style. So if they said it is so then it is.

Tan Tui is complete onto itself with its existing techniques. All techniques have many levels of applications. As one masters a style, he gains the ability to "see" the other less obvious applications for the same technique.

Take any row in Tan T'ui, one can see the obvious application. But what makes this set stand the test of time is what is beyond what is obvious. This is what makes Tan Tui a stand alone style.

Other sets within a style exist but are really an expression of the same or similar techniques found in bacis sets. Some people like to call these sets higher level but higher level sets come and go with time.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Tan Tui is a special love of mine.

For me Tan Tui is a style. I udes to think it was an extinct style unitl I had the opportunity to speak with the late Fred M.A. Wu. He spoke to me about how the practitioners would stamp and shout during their practice. He also spoke to me about the dummy work that they would do and about, hold on to your hats, Tan Tui Chi Kung! To this day I have not seen these methods.

I once spoke with GM Chan about His Tam Tui method. He told me that is method is more advanced that the others. I have yet to have the opportunity to see that as well.

Ngokfei, please share more about the theories you have come across.

Thank you

mickey

[mickey]

I had to break this up into 2 parts:


My study of Tan Tui has focused on the extraction of techniques: blocking, striking, grappling, throwing and killing. They are all there; e.g., there are at least 12 throwing techniques in Tan Tui. They are not designed to be gentle either. The opponent's head is smashes into the ground or lands with something broken.

Ultimately one's perception of whether Tan Tui is a style may be shaded by the martix of the method that they are studying and by the practitioners own perceptions about the knowledge presented them.

mickey

[mickey]

Please forgive the typos,

Post one : used

Post Two : smashed into ..,and matrix

mickey

[Robert Young]

> According to the archives in China, it is reconized as a stand
> alone style. So if they said it is so then it is.
I do not know such a archives exist. It is probably created by someone recently. Even if it exsits, what it said may not quite right. Chinese never did archive in the past.
What I practiced is called Jiao Men Quan which is muslim style. Tan Tui is our core material. Chinese martial art masters seldom wrote down their materials because they did not teach people casually in the past.

> My study of Tan Tui has focused on the extraction of
> techniques: blocking, striking, grappling, throwing and killing.
> They are all there; e.g., there are at least 12 throwing
> techniques in Tan Tui.
Maybe your Tan Tui have 12 throwing tech. Mine does not have. But, if you can get good throwing techniques out of it, that is very godd. Try to practice with Chinese Shuai Ciao people and see the difference. They are specialized in throwing.

Personally, I don't believe one material cover all. But, people can believe whatever they like.
It is easy to test if Tan Tui is a complete system. Just practice it only and try to test it with people from other styles. If it works, it works. There is nothing to argue about. I will be very happy to see someone can do that. I believe in fact.

[NorthernShaolin]

Originally posted by ngokfei


It is true that alot of schools have adopted the rudimentary ideas of tan tui and as such have not really studied/mastered its secrets.

IMO its a great set, especially for combat. Not very pretty but very realistic.

In closing I think Eric says it all.

[MasterKiller]

That clip is posted on Empty Flower. No reason for you to waste your bandwidth.

http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/

[MasterKiller]

I better save it then! It's a good clip.

[mickey]

Please do post the other version. I would like to see it.

Thank You,

mickey

[norther practitioner]

Interest being expressed here too.:D

[rik]

Shaolin 12 section Tui tui does contain all the catagories of hand to hand combat found
in Chinese martial arts - striking, sticking, trapping and catching, throwing, various combination of these, etc. and in that sense it can be said it is complete. However in the sense that an CMA should contain the 18 weapons it is not a complete system :-)))).

I think the point is not whether Tan Tui contains every technique but that it is good basics that makes good fighters and that one is better off having master basics and knowing how to use them under the stress of combat in many situations, than knowing many advance and complicated forms. Because the Shaolin tradition has many impressive 'advanced’ sets some people get the false impression that more techniques creates a more effect fighter. My teacher would remind us of the importance of mastering the basics and knowing how to use them and not to just learn dozens and dozens of forms. To underline his point he would say that in the past there were very effective fighters that only practiced tan tui.

r.

[NorthernShaolin]

r.

Good point. It reminds me of some fighting stories documented about Huo Yuen Chia, founder of Ching Wu (Jing Mo) Association, Even though his main style was Mi Tsung Chuan, in every fight that he was involved, witnesses have stated he used techniques from Tan T'ui, specifically his favorite was the first and second rows.

[count]

Tan Tui does cover all ranges and has some good throws. Think about #4 and #8 alone. Although I agree it is mainly foundational and without pao chuan and cha chuan could not be considered complete, I still think there are are some good locks, takedowns and throws in Tan Tui.

On a side note, are you mad with us at Emptyflower "sc_guy"? :D We miss you:(

[Lokhopkuen]

It is my understanding that Tan Tui is a complete martial art as Master Chan Poi is reputed to know the entire system. This was told to me by one of his high level students.

Peace

[mickey]

sc_guy,

It took a trip to chinatown to get vegetables for me to figure out who you are. Thank you for sharing your clips with us.

Of the two clips, I prefer GM Han's because it has more flow, more power and more root. It is the root aspect that I do not see very much in the Long Fist styles.

With regard to this version, the emphasis is on alignment and strength development. This seems to be the case with most 10 line versions. The 12 line versions have more technique, especially with regard to throwingand grappling.

I did happen to see an excellent 12 line version from Taiwan. It contained double stamping kicks.

Thanks again,

mickey

[mickey]

Tan Tui did have a weapon form. It was a knife form that was called Six Harmonies Knife, liu ho dao. I got this from the glossary of Liang Shou Yu's Kung fu Elements. I think this Tan Tui weapon form did make it to Taiwan. Whether it still exists is questionable.

mickey

[Robert Young]

SC_Guy,

Good to see you here. Thanks for sharing.


For others this is FYI,
The Tan Tui clips from sc_guy is OUR Tan Tui routines. That is what I learned and practiced. As far as I know, there is no locking or throwing techniques in it. The Tan tui routines I learned is passed down from my GM Han to my teacher and another senior students of my GM Han. If there is other version of it, I would like to know about it because it is almost impossible to have another version of Tan Tui other than 12 routines from Ching-Woo.


Northern Shaolin,

> It reminds me of some fighting stories documented about Huo
> Yuen Chia, founder of Ching Wu (Jing Mo) Association, Even
> though his main style was Mi Tsung Chuan, in every fight that
> he was involved, witnesses have stated he used techniques
> from Tan T'ui, specifically his favorite was the first and second
> rows.
The only time Huo Yen Chia fought is to fight with a local MA guy when he came to Shang Hai. The technique he used is more of Shuai Caio technique than Tan Tui. It is documented in the book published by the founder of Ching Woo association. Huo Yuen Chia was not the founder of Ching Woo actually. The founder was called Cheng, Gong-Ze. The founder has published a book about Ching Woo several decades ago. I still have the book.


Count,

> Tan Tui does cover all ranges and has some good throws. Think
> about #4 and #8 alone. Although I agree it is mainly
> foundational and without pao chuan and cha chuan could not
> be considered complete, I still think there are are some good
> locks, takedowns and throws in Tan Tui.
If the #4 and #8 are from ten routine Tan Tui, I think you have mis-interpreted the usage of the routines. The ten routine Tan Tui today were from Central Guoi-Shu Guan, and is what I learned. There is no throwing in #4 or #8 as far as I know. There is no locking technique either. Why? Qin Na is our specialty. Locking is in QinNa's category. My teacher does not see it, and I don't see it in Tan Tui. I hope you can prove me wrong, but....

Mickey,
> With regard to this version, the emphasis is on alignment and
> strength development. This seems to be the case with most 10 > line versions.
The 10 line version you mentioned was mostly passed down from my GM Han. It is GM Han's personal way of training actually. Other masters had their own ways of training. But the alignment and strength development techniques were our training guideline from my GM Hang.


Another FYI,

The Clips of Tan Tui from SC_GUY is a simpler and perfprmance version of Tan-Tui. The way we trained for Tan Tui is to hold the kick a little longer to gain the strength of the kicks. Other commands are for other puposes that have nothing to do with combat.
I wish I can get a job in southeren california and move down there. BUt, Tan Tui is stilll a basic training routines.

[NorthernShaolin]

Thank you Robert Young for your information. Very interesting.

[mickey]

Robert Young,

I do understand your perspective with regard to the 10 line version that you practice. I was speaking primarily from the 12 line perspective. I should communicate better.

Was the ten line version developed at the Nan King Central MA Institute?

mickey

[mickey]

Lokhopkuen,

RE: GM Chan and Tam Tui

Has he ever taught it out?

mickey

[count]

Originally posted by Robert Young
SC_Guy,

For others this is FYI,
The Tan Tui clips from sc_guy is OUR Tan Tui routines. That is what I learned and practiced. As far as I know, there is no locking or throwing techniques in it. The Tan tui routines I learned is passed down from my GM Han to my teacher and another senior students of my GM Han. If there is other version of it, I would like to know about it because it is almost impossible to have another version of Tan Tui other than 12 routines from Ching-Woo.

Count,

> Tan Tui does cover all ranges and has some good throws. Think
> about #4 and #8 alone. Although I agree it is mainly
> foundational and without pao chuan and cha chuan could not
> be considered complete, I still think there are are some good
> locks, takedowns and throws in Tan Tui.
If the #4 and #8 are from ten routine Tan Tui, I think you have mis-interpreted the usage of the routines. The ten routine Tan Tui today were from Central Guoi-Shu Guan, and is what I learned. There is no throwing in #4 or #8 as far as I know. There is no locking technique either. Why? Qin Na is our specialty. Locking is in QinNa's category. My teacher does not see it, and I don't see it in Tan Tui. I hope you can prove me wrong, but....

Another FYI,

The Clips of Tan Tui from SC_GUY is a simpler and perfprmance version of Tan-Tui. The way we trained for Tan Tui is to hold the kick a little longer to gain the strength of the kicks. Other commands are for other puposes that have nothing to do with combat.
I wish I can get a job in southeren california and move down there. BUt, Tan Tui is stilll a basic training routines.
Robert,
I know you are more familiar with the longfist system's many forms than I. I have only about three years of longfist as a basic foundation, and we only learn Tan Tui, Pao Chuan and Cha Chuan in our school. But than, I did spend an entire year learning Tan Tui on three levels including applications and moving steps. The Tan Tui I still practice today, even after 20 years, is the one you see in the video sc_guy posted. In fact, and sc_guy will verify this, the one in the clip comes from an original 8 mm film that my own teacher has. It was projected onto a bed sheet to transfer it to VHS, LOL. The only difference in the way we practice it is we do all 3 sides of #8, 9 and 10. We don't come all the way up on the finishes to single leg, and of course, we hold each posture painfully long. But than, if you already know Southern California, than I think you probably already know my teacher too.

The applications I have been taught, I doubt are mis-understood. Why, because the are identical to the form (except bring the backhand forward in several casses to guard), and because they are simple and logical, and because they work. They work in free fighting. How do I know, because I have used many of them in free fighting with live and resisting opponents. BTW, we also learn a 2 man version of Tan Tui, but most of the applications are done with a mind to keep the form going.

When you circle your arms and cross them in front as in lines 4, 7 and 8, it is an armlock and the reason for sitting so low in twisted stance, is to put the pressure on and take your opponent to the ground. Line 4 has a diagonal cut and a front sweep combination and line 8 has a diagonal cut. It's there and I would have to show you on your own body so if you stop by in Southern California, please stop by. If you wanted to meet people with some of your own background, you probably would have found us anyway. And I would give anything to learn the 2 man Qinna form. ;)

[count]

sc_guy,

I know what you mean about the bickering and arguing. It's so pointless. And anyone that would argue against the truth isn't worth the effort in the first place. But most of us are grateful for the information you share.

PS: have you thought about Qingdao this summer? When I told Sifu Tsou you were thinking of going too he seemed to get very excited.

[David Jamieson]

nice clips.

my personal opinion is that the old man's version is better than his students. Not that the student is bad, he isn't, just that i think the old man is better. :)

cheers

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Sifu Han's kung fu is much higher than that of his student. But that is to be expected...he is after all the master and the student is...still a student. Perhaps with time and considerable more instruction and practice, the student will reach the level of Sifu Han's performance clip.

GHD

[rik]

Looking at Shifu Han's 10 section Tan tui confirms in my mind that the 10 section and 12 section version are connected. In some sections (ie. 1, 3, 4) the similarities are more apparent than others. Section 8 and 9 however are quite different. Despite these difference the similarities in the underlining patterns can be seen. This in my mind confirms the traditional history of Shaolin Tan tui. We went thought through this in another early discussion at some length. Basically tradition according to the older generation says that Shaolin monks adopted tan tui making some changes to it and added two sections. From what I understand Shanghai Jingwu propagated the same history of it as we do.


Our Tan Tui comes from different linage than the one that came from Chao Lien-ho and the Shanghai Jingwu. Our lineage moved from the Luoyang area in Henan province to Beijing during the mid 1800's then to Shanghai during the 1910's.
At lest in looking at Chan Kin Man's book "Northern Shaolin Twelve Tantui Boxing Series" published by the Hong Kong Chan Hong Heung Kung Fu Association in 1984, I would say that our tan tui is very simular although not identical to the Jingwu version.

However many of the applications are different, at lest as shown in the above mentioned book.
e.g. Section 11, which shows a catch-trap-throw, we do this also but quite differently. Our application for section 4 is different.

r.

[mickey]

Greeitings All,

I thought Louyang (Loyang) was in Shantung Province.

mickey

[Robert Young]

COUNT,


> But than, if you already know Southern California, than I think
> you probably already know my teacher too.
I know my teacher has some younger brothers immigrated to southern California. But, I don't know who your teacher is. Would you be kind to tell me your background?

> When you circle your arms and cross them in front as in lines 4,
> 7 and 8, it is an armlock and the reason for sitting so low in
> twisted stance, is to put the pressure on and take your
> opponent to the ground. Line 4 has a diagonal cut and a front
> sweep combination and line 8 has a diagonal cut. It's there and
> I would have to show you on your own body so if you stop by
> in Southern California, please stop by. If you wanted to meet
> people with some of your own background, you probably would
> have found us anyway. And I would give anything to learn the
> 2 man Qinna form.
I think I know how you interprete the routines on #4 and #8. I have seen people done that. But, That is not what it was interpreted from GM Han. Our interpretation on those are simply grab and hit with foot step back. It is like applying grab and hit under retreat. I bet that was your teacher's interpretation. It's actually normal. People may endup interprete moves their own way. My Long Fist younger brothers have similar interpretation also. They were taught and trained by me in the past. But after I was away from Taiwan for almost ten years, they ended up interpreted that way. Some even interpreted into something else way out of line. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong. All I'm saying is that it was not original meaning.

GM Han only taught his first two groups of senior students personally. Most of my younger Long Fist uncles were taught and trained by those senior students. GM Han might have taught a little bit here and there to those younger students, but not much.
As you can see, it is very easy to have moves changed or meaning interpreted differently in that kind of teaching environment.

I go to southern California from time to time to visite relatives. I would be very happy to meet people related to me. Let me know how to contact you.

I'm happy to teach two man QinNa form, but it takes two person with certain background. I would be happy to show you some basics if we have the chance to meet someday. Not I don't want to teach the form directly. The fact is that, in all my Long Fist uncles, only two or three of them can perform the form.


MICKEY,

> Was the ten line version developed at the Nan King Central MA
> Institute?
Yes and No. The first eight routines are the original one. Nan King Central MA Institute added the 9 and 10 routines for double kicks.

[count]

Robert,
I study Baguazhang with Jason Tsou. He was with the same generation as Adam Hsu under Liu Yun Qaio. So I guess you would say our longfist comes from Adam Hsu who got it from Grandmaster Han. When I started with Sifu Tsou, in the early 80's, it was a requirement for everyone to learn basic longfist before Sifu picked a style for you. I consider that fortunate since I have seen others come into the school more recently, and not be forced to learn basics first. The serious students always go back and beg for the basic training after seeing how valuable it is. Considering Sifu Tsou's background with Shuai Chiao, it would not surprise me if that was his interpretation of the applications. Still, I use them with the same movements and entries etc. as the form and they are quite effective.

As I said, everyone at our school eventually gets some exposure to Longfist. I know at least one other bagua brother who I could work on the Qinna form with, who has also been through our longfist training. I would be thrilled to meet you and introduce you to my Sifu, if you haven't already met him before. You can always reach me here or at emptyflower website, or through our school website that is linked in my signature.

Jeff "count" Kabaker

[Robert Young]

COUNT,

> I study Baguazhang with Jason Tsou. He was with the same
> generation as Adam Hsu under Liu Yun Qaio. So I guess you
> would say our longfist comes from Adam Hsu who got it from
> Grandmaster Han.
> Considering Sifu Tsou's background with Shuai Chiao, it would
> not surprise me if that was his interpretation of the applications.
That explains it. Adam Hsu seldom learned his Long Fist directly from GM Han. He was taught and trained mostly by his senior brothers. And he did not stayed in Long Fist very long either. Long means several decades. I have been with my teacher for 30 years. Every time I went back to see my teacher, I learn something new about our Long Fist, even today.

Cheer,

[count]

I understand what you are saying and I already knew a little about you from reading your posts at the EmptyFlower forum. I have only trained maybe a handful of times with Adam and my main interest is bagua. But I am grateful for the training I got in Longfist from my teacher, Sifu Tsou. We did Tan Tui this morning for a full hour, which after the holidays and everything, it was brutal.:eek:

Hope to meet you someday,

[taichi4eva]

"Prior to his enrolment in Yip's classes, [Bruce] Lee had had no exposure to a serious fighting art. He had been taught the rolling, punching, swinging, and kicking movements of tam toi, a northern system of kung fu exercises which are a mandatory part of the physical education curriculum of every Hong Kong youth"

So everyone in Hong Kong's a kung fu master then? I can just imagine a bunch of people doing tan tui and practicing nunchakus in a park somewhere....I'm just joking. Was tan tui really a part of the physical education curriculum along with other sports like baseball, tennis, etc.? Was it considered to be part of some P.E. unit entitled "KungFu101"? Just how famous is tan tui in Hong Kong? And, if we are arguing here, could we say that Bruce Lee had mastered Tan Tui before anything else, including his famous Wing Chun?

[count]

Originally posted by sc_guy
]Count:

Strange enough the invatation letter that I have received does not have the date in it. Do you know the date and competation list? It will be nice that Tsou Ja Sean and I could form a US team together.
Our trip is planned for the last 2 weeks in August. We already have at least 10 people commited to going and plan a pretty extensive itinerary besides Qingdao and the tournament. I don't know the exact tournament date and Sifu Tsou is away on a trip until next weekend. I'll have him get in touch with you as soon as he gets back.

[mickey]

Hi taicih4eva,

I don't ever remember Bruce Lee being called a master of Tan Tui. I do remember seeing a video that featured Dan Inosanto. Dan stated that Bruce taught it as part of his curriculum when he was in the US. I guess it was during the "early phase" of his teaching.

I do remember hearing the term "Tan Tui Hall" in reference to a training place in Hong Kong. I don't know much beyond that; but, it sounded like day care for children.

mickey

[mickey]

Hi Northern Shaolin,

I was reviewing the responses made by Robert Young about Huo Yuan Chia. If Huo used Shuai Chiao, that is not at all conflicting with your tradition that he used Tan Tui techniques from lines 1 and 2. Lines 1 and 2 both have throwing techniques. So now it can be said that Huo fought using throwing techniques from lines 1 and 2 of Tan Tui.

Of course, we are talking about the 12 line version.

mickey

[stimulant]

Tan Tui was a seperate style....but I dont think it is practised as a seperate style anymore

[taichi4eva]

"I do remember hearing the term "Tan Tui Hall" in reference to a training place in Hong Kong. I don't know much beyond that; but, it sounded like day care for children."

LOL....day care...really...a lot of McDojo's are like that.

[mickey]

On the other hand,

I remember Shum Leung (Ying Jow Pai) speaking in an interview about a Tam Tui Wong. This person has practiced Tam Tui for years and can fight with it. This was written in the now defunct Journal of Asian Martial Arts.

mickey

[rik]

Mickey,
Re: Luoyang. This city is an ancient Imperial capital located in the northwestern part of Henan.

In old school CMA, locking, throwing, and the so call 'chin-na' etc. were not separate arts but were integrated with striking etc. Generally all systems had them to various degrees.
As far as accounts of what technques Huo Yuanjia used or didn’t use in his fights I would take most of it with a grain salt. Generally even first person accounts of these kind of events tend to be wildly different. This is the case even when you have expert observers.
Huo was a famous martial artist but became legendary almost immediatly after his death in 1910 and there were many stories about him. My teacher, who started training in Shanghai in the mid ‘20s remembers that it was said although Huo Yuanjia did not know many sets he was regarded a master and was very skilled in the basics and Tan Tui. How true this was - who knows. What is most certain, if Huo was anything of the fighter he is claimed to be, his basics were excellent.

r.

[mickey]

Hello rik,

Thank you for the info.

I agree with you with regard to old school Chinese martial arts. The specializations we see now may have been to help preserve certain aspects of Chinese martial arts.

With regard to Huo Yuan Chia, what techniques he used and what he knew, you might enjoy the irony of the following. When I was first learning Tan Tui, I asked how Tan Tui men fought. I was told "Lost Track"; i.e. like Lost Track practitioners.

mickey

[NorthernShaolin]

mickey,

r. is right about Huo as a legend immediately after his death.

And about Robert Y's comment about Huo only in one fight and using Shuai Chiao as he cited from a book, I've read that particular document many years ago too. I've also read many other documents that RY perhaps does not have access to or is unaware of their existance that contains other figths that involved Huo. (RY stated earlier 'Chinese never did archive in the past.' is a general statement by him and is obviously not true. I elected like many others here not to challenge his statement because there is really no point in doing so because it is only an opinion and overall would not serve any positive purpose.)

Secondly, I've realized that RY has learnt 10 row and not 12 row Tan T'ui so I dropped the subject since I felt the discussion would not be productive. I respect his view point from the 10 row perspective.

Lastly, but I admit that this does not weight too much since it is second hand info but important never the less, is that many years ago I've had conversations from some of the original Jing Mo students who were classmates of Huo's son. They acknowledged that Huo did not know many sets and when he fought, he used Tan T'ui techniques.

[NorthernShaolin]

Anyway... as old as Tan T'ui is, it would not have lasted as along as it has just on the merits that it is a good set for basics. Sets and styles last the test of time for a reason and it is not because of the obvious, i.e., perceived basic techniques.

If people placed themselves in a situation that Tan T'ui was the only existing set available to them, I am confidenced that in time they will be able to see the real value and the hidden secrets of Tan T'ui and not just brush it off as a basic set.

[rik]

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other fights that involved Huo.
.................................................. ................
NorthernShaolin,
My teacher mentioned this as well.


.................................................. ................
'Chinese never did archive in the past.' is a general statement by him and is obviously not true.
.................................................. .....................
Our Shaolin tradition claims there were records
and this is in keeping with one of the characteristics of Chinese Buddhist monasticism.
r.

[mickey]

Hi Northern Shaolin,

I am in agreement with both of you. I understood your silence.

mickey

[count]

Can anyone provide a translation for the poems of Tan Tui? I started to discuss them with my teacher a couple of times, but it usually leads to more and harder practice. LOL! So I don't bring them up in class too often. :D Not that I don't prefer the harder practice, I'm just curious.

[NorthernShaolin]

count,

are you talking about 10 row or 12 row?

[count]

Originally posted by NorthernShaolin
count,

are you talking about 10 row or 12 row?
Well, I'm mainly interested in the 10 since that is what I still practice and am most interested in, but I have learned the 12 and I'm interested in that too. I was never told about poems for the 12 in the past since my Northern Shaolin teacher wasn't Chinese, but I constantly hear them related to the 10 where I am now. Just curious since I think they shed more light on the applications that could be added to this discussion.

[ngokfei]

Wow Great Thread. Go away for a couple of days and look...

Northernshaolin, you've already said what I've been thinking. Good thing I read all the responses 1st.

No 1 teacher knows it all. And students should get better then their teachers to prevent stagnation and give honors to their style.


Tan Tui is a legacy. If it was less then it wouldn't have so many descendents.

As I read some where, go something like this:

"If you breath now instead of later you have lost". I interpret it to mean one action/thought has many outcomes so one action in a "Form" can have many meanings/interpretations.

Great thread,

[NorthernShaolin]

count,

Here you go:

Poem for 10 Row Tan T'ui

Row one is oi hit the enemy as you hit with a whip

Row two is to buffet with both fist crossed

Row three is to knock the enemy's head

Row four is to bar the road with fist

Row five is to buffet and protect yourself with your arms

Row six is to hit with a single fist

Row seven is to hit with both fist

Row eight is to swing your fist sidewards or backwards

Row nine is to hold the fist together

Row ten is to kick with your foot as if your an arrow.

.

Poem for 12 row Tan T'ui

Row 1: Buffet forward with a single fist in advance position

Row 2: Hit the enemy with both fist cross

Row 3: Knock the enemy's head with your body turning backwards

Row 4: Buffet with your fist and kick the enemy with your foot

Row 5: Protect your head and hit the enemy's chest

Row 6: Buffet with both fist; prostratating the leg

Row 7: Hit the enemy's ear with one fist and kick him hard

Row 8: Protect your head and groin with the fist

Row 9: Hold the fist together and separate them

Row 10: Kick your enemy with the foot as you hit him with an arrow

Row 11: Buffet sidewards with a hook-fist

Row 12: Recover to the original position.


Sounds like it was composed more for route memory rather than for applications.

[count]

That's great, I have to save this. It's not as detailed as I thought but thanks so much!:)

[stimulant]

Thats very interesting count

From the Tan Tui I know (10)

I would guess by comparing them to the poem that numbers 3, 5 and possibly 10 are the same....but the rest would appear to be different....though obviously I would have to see them to compare.

[mickey]

Count,

Laurie Cahn of the WuTan did a very nice article for Karate/Kung fu Illustrated on the 10 Line Tan Tui that you practice. I think it, to some degree, offers the enrichment that you are looking for.

If she is still active and in this world try contacting her. She may have a longer version. Martial arts magazines often edit down submissions to fit space-- the results can be tragic.

mickey

[norther practitioner]

Again, many thanks NS.

[Lokhopkuen]

RE: GM Chan and Tam Tui

Has he ever taught it out?

mickey[/B]


Not sure Mickey. Northern Shaolin has a greater knowledge of styles and history so I would bow to his wisdom in this matter. However I was told the system actually had many forms beyond the popular 10-12 routines and that not many folk outside the system know much about it. I have never studied with Master Chan but my friend said their was/is an entire system of hand forms and related weapons sets practiced to this day in Shandong.

Then again I could have heard it wrong and I am just spreading misinformation.
Ahhh the internet forums. The wild west of of the bad quote, hehehehe!

Peace Bradda

[mickey]

Lokhopkuen,

Thank you for sharing. I find the Wah Lum people's absence on the present Tan Tui threads a little puzzling.

mickey

[stimulant]

I just saw the Tan Tui on http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/

it is sooooo similar to the ones Lu Jun Hai of Mizong Quan teaches.

[norther practitioner]

It is very similar to mine as well, I'll have to ask my teacher who taught him our version.:)

[rik]

After all this talk about Tan Tui I remembered a book about 10 section Tan Tui I bought in the early 80's.
I have most of them stored in my basement in boxes :-)))) and after some rummaging about I did find a couple.
One, you might find interesting was written in 1982 by Ma Zhenbang. He had studied 10 section Tan Tui and other Cha Quan sets from Ma Enchen of Shaanxi Province in the early 1940's. The set strongly resembles Shifu Han's set but is done with much lower postures. The forearm position after the circular movement, that is done after many of the punches, has it positioned waist high and parallel to the ground in front of the body (we do this as well). Other than #8 the most have some resemblance to
the first 10 lines of our Shaolin 12 section Tan Tui.

The poem for the set is as follows. (We interpret #9 to contain a wrist lock used as a counter, so I found the poem rather interesting.)
Note the ending advice.

#1 coherent steps that are hard resist.
#2 the skill of cross that gives you the knack of springing and shooting
#3 slash and squash that you can brave the darkness
#4 enables you to block the adversary with a shooting palm
#5 prepares you for an incoming intent
#6 guides you to advance and grapple by artifice of crooking and sprinkling
#7 teaches you the flowery elbow bending as a means of defense
#8 directs you stamp and tread with body rotation and hands waving.
#9 nine gives the skill of locking and sticking with a sweeping leg of a mandarin duck
#10 teaches you the flying kick - the key skill of spring leg
the poem continues:
If you do not follow the set rules, you r practice is a mere waste of time.
Plain and simple though the skill may be, you will find it a powerful
weapon after persistent training and practice.
Protecting body and building up strength, it offers you manifold skill in fighting the enemy.
As the first technique since beginning of history, the Ten Routine Spring Leg
handed down from generation to generation.

r.

[stimulant]

I've just posted a description of our MiZong Quan Tan Tui 1 in the 'how many variations of traditional Tan Tui are there???' thread. Does anyone do the same vaerison as me?

[GeneChing]

This forum is a great resource if you use our search function before you ask. We had a wonderful thread on Tan tui lyrics (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=12377) last year.

[count]

Originally posted by GeneChing
This forum is a great resource if you use our search function before you ask. We had a wonderful thread on Tan tui lyrics (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=12377) last year.
Forgive my internet faugh-pah your exhalted, high poobah of the board. Next time I may just do that but since I thought it was relevant at the moment of the dialog I thought I would bring it up again. I missed that thread since I generally hang around the internal board as a preference. I didn't realize the level of expertise and sharing as well as the civil manner of discussions on this board. Thank you all. But since you brought it up, I notice some of your translations clearly speak of qinna and throws. Interesting.

[GeneChing]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off sounding negative. I'm sure there's plenty of threads I've forgotten over the years. Lord, I hope so.

The lyrics thread project last year was really well received. It was a lot of fun and it brought out some great discussion amongst the BSL members of our forum here.