Effective Dit Da Jow Herbs

[ntc]

I am pretty sure that quite a few of you on this forum use Dit Da Jow to treat bruises, broken bones, etc. I wanted to start a thread to see what herbal formula combinations you found useful, assuming you made your own linaments. There are a ton of formulas out there, and it would be cool to know which formula combinations worked for what types of injuries. Great if you could share your experience... especially if you feel which herbs are "must-haves" in a formula for it to be effective.

(Let's focus on custom formulas, and not over-the-counter generic formulas like Five Photo Brand, etc..... thanks.)

Happy new year to everyone.

[Phil Redmond]

I have a few formulas. I always use Taa Yan, Mut Yeut, and a few others to remove stasis and promote circulation. I can post a picture of the Chinese characters for them when I get to my formulas. Of course no Jau is good without Hung Fa.

[ntc]

Thanks, Phil. I also use those ingredients frequently. In addition, I also like to include San Qi as one of the main blood movers, along with Mo Yao.

By the way, what is your thought of using Camphor which I find quite a few people using in their formulas? I usually am hesitant to use this only because of the heat component, and if I did use it, I try to counter it with something like Bo He as a cooling agent. In fact, I frequently include Bo He in my formulas to minimize the heat that could form so as to facilitate the healing aspect. Do you use coolers and which ones do you use?

[aelward]

Tian Qi, Dang Gui (tail), Ru Xiang, Mo Yao, Zhang Nao... all cool things to put in the mix...

[ntc]

aelward: definitely agree with you.

[aelward]

LOL, speaking of Camphor...

I think it is good to use because it is definitely something that a person feels and therefore can encourage circulation. The only time I have used Zhang Nao in a formula, I also used Bing Pian-- albeit the synthetic type-- another one which can be felt.

In terms of hotness, though, Camphor does not begin to rate with chuan jiao-- another ingredient in some herbal plasters you see out there.

[aelward]

Oh yes, I forgot Xue Jie. It is one of those which gives some jius that dark color. Expensive, though, and makes a huge mess...

[ntc]

Along those lines, I sometimes use Gan Cao, and Shi Gao in addition to some toxic (painkiller) herbs. Never used Chuan Jiao in these linaments, but I can see your point. That herb is pretty warming, just like another one I sometimes use, Chuan Xiong. So, other than just giving the patient the tingling feeling of something happening, what else would you use camphor for?

[yuanfen]

jows can be smelly--- but with camphor? Whew!

[ntc]

Joy..... good point !!! ;-) (hehehehehe)

[Phil Redmond]

Does anyone here have a preference of white liquor over dark in their formulas? I used to buy "home made" Saam Jing Jau in NY Chinatown but since I moved to Detroit I've been using Vodka for lack of a SJJ source. I've been told that white liquor is better, but I'd like to hear opinions from you guys (generic).

I prefer not to use camphor in my Jau. Not because of smell but because of it's properties.

[Phil Redmond]

I let my Jau stand for at least 3 months before use. What say you guys? The older the better of course. Also, I noticed one commercial Jau that I used to buy in NYC was made with rubbing alcohol. I have also used Tincture of Arnica which can be purchased at a drug store when I was out of Jau.

[ntc]

Phil:

White vs dark wine... which is better... hard to say. Ask ten different Dit Da specialists, and there is a good chance the answers will be evenly distributed.

From my own experience, most either use the dark wine or pure vodka. From a TCM perspective, dark wine is an excellent blood mover, and hence would seem to be the better choice. I myself use the dark-colored Shiao Xing Rice Wine (drinking quality, which is a higher quality, versus the cooking version). I have found that to be very effective in the treatments I have administered. One of my good friends, a 70 year-old Dragon style master and also a TCM/Dit Da specialist from Hong Kong and trained in Dit Da in China, uses pure vodka most of the time. He says that its characteristic is extremely powerful and is even better than the dark wine. I haven't tried using vodka yet, but do plan on trying that someday just to make some comparisons.

[ntc]

Regarding soaking time, in general, 90 days to 180 days is the rule-of-thumb for the herbs to take its chemical effect on the wine. I have been told that the longer you soak, the stronger the wine gets, but I also have friends who say that once the reaction between the wine/herbs is completed, soaking any longer won't make any difference. However, also depending on the herbs, some herbs are meant to be quick absorbants and not meant for soaking... you basically heat up those herbs in the wine right before treatment and then apply them. Soaking those herbs would actually neutralize those herbs. But these are rare situations and most often you will find herbs being soaked for 3mos to 6mos.

[yuanfen]

I dont sell jow though I share mine when I want to with some students if they ask.

I have stored batches- but no longer make my own...nor do I get over the counter. I get mine via a martial artist who has been in CMA much longer than me- he is familiar with many martial jows
particularly from two great(non wing chun) CMA artists. He works witha Chinese herbalist in LA to get it just right---appearance, smell, touch and effectiveness.Very helpful and no bad effects- except for signing on in net forums.
My hands are not scarred or calloused but they have above average resistance to injuries(the da in context of dit da jow)

I would never use one with rubbing alcohol.
I also use some Indian martial mixes for my own purposes. Indian martial arts also use(d) pre and post activity lotions and liniments of various kinds.

Again, I do not prescribe or sell.

Sometimes I go to a Chinese herbalist abd accupuncturist in my area who is from Tianjin and has considerable experience and training and evn teaching experience. First part of his training
was like 2/3 of med school.

Also- btw given the outrageous cost of medical care in the US- I think preventive care is the best way to go and I have put my chips on that....while not closing the door on other alternatives including MD/allopathic. Three generations of MDs on both paternal and maternal side. Dad wasa superb diagnostician- but his jaw dropped when I showed him the places where I had been acupunctured. Different paradigms.

Incidentally, he could tell in autopsies if excessive use of aspirin existed from the pock marks in the stomach lining.He always wondered why aspirin and some other things were so easily available while for other things you have to pray to the gods.

((My almost 90 year old mpther has knee pain. Ibuprofen does zilch for her. Mobic can help but the HMO wont go for it- money.
What is managed is the money- not the care))

I know the limits of what I do and if I thought I needed sutures
I would go to a surgeon.

[ntc]

Joy.... great background you have... and not to mention wise words of advice. I would love to learn more about Indian herbs someday, opportunity permitting. Thanks for sharing.

[ntc]

I just came across a really interesting thread in another part of this forum that talks about someone with an ACL problem being helped by Dit Da.... thought I'd share the link, in case you have not read it. This is what has always amazed me about TCM and especially the healing powers of herbs.... seen enough of similar situations in my lifetime to make me a believer, not to mention actual cases I have treated as well.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27132

Happy reading.

[wentwest]

Wow,

This has been a fascinating thread to read! I had no idea that making home made Jao is so prevalent. I'd love to try making a general purpose one sometime, but how would I go about it? Can any of you gentlemen point me in the right direction (book wise or otherwise) to find recipes and sources for the ingredients (herbs).

Joy, you mentioned a friend of yours who works with an LA Chinese herbal specialist. I live in LA, and I ownder if it might be possible to get in touch with him?

Anthony

[ntc]

Wentwest:

Here is a link to an article posted by someone on the subject. It is a pretty easy-to-read article on Dit Da Jow, and will help you create your own. It also has a pretty generic formula in it, that, judging by its ingredients, I think should work pretty well. The only herbs that I might add to the formula to make it a bit more effective are pain killing herbs (one would be sufficient). When you go to an herbalist to get the herbs, ask him to recommend a good one for you to add to the formula.

Happy mixing.

http://www.wingchun.org/txt/misc/jow.html

[wentwest]

ntc,

I just read that thread you linked to in your post. That was very cool. I had a similar experience years ago in NYC. I had pulled a tendon in my shoulder taking a poor fall in Aikido. My shoulder hurt for over a month without getting any better. I could barely raise my arm above my shoulder level without excruciating pain.

A visit to my regular Western doctor at the time resulted in an x-ray and a confirmation that I had pulled a tendon in my shoulder and it was inflamed. He told me to take it easy on the shoulder and it would heal by itself in a few months. Meanwhile I was not able to train, and the pain was affecting my work as well.

A frined of mine referred me to Kenny Gong, in NYC. He's a Chinese accupunture and herbal specialist who also happens to teach Chi gung, Hsing-i and Pa Kua. He's well know in the NYC area for being very good at treating Martial Arts injuries, and indeed my Aikido Sensei was one of his patients (though I only found this out upon my first visit to Mr. Gong.

In any case, he treated me with accupuncture, and rubbed some kind of jao into my shoulder afterward. He vigorously rubbed my shoulder and started to work my shoulder by rotating my arm. Within about five minutes he had my shoulder moving through the full range of motion. After that he stopped and asked me to move my arm on my own through the full range of rotation. I was amazed! Only at the very top position of my arm (and stretching it straight up at that) did I feel any pain at all, and it was very minimal compared to the excruciating pain I felt before coming into his office.

Mr. Gong told me that because I was young (late 20's at the time), that I would not need any further work. Had I been older he said I might have needed one or two more visits, but because I was still young I would be fine. I'll never forget that it was a Friday afternoon, and he said that by Monday all trace of pain would be gone. He was exactly right. Three days later the pain was completely gone, and I've never had a problem with my shoulder since :)

I've been a believer ever since!

[ntc]

Wentwest:

Good story... thanks for sharing. I am hoping that more people in the US will be open to Dit Da as a form of treatment for neuromuscular injuries, because it is a very powerful and effective therapy. Unfortunately, it has two major stumbling blocks in the US - one is licensing as it closely resembles (on paper) something an osteopath would do, which is similar but not the same. And secondly, the use of herbs is still a grey area in the US because of the FDA. Fortunately, they have not been very active in monitoring the usage of Chinese herbs in Chinese Medicine, and I hope they stay that way.

Good luck to you in making the herb. Since you are in LA, you should be able to bring the formula to any herbal store in Chinatown and ask the store hebalist for (a) making the herbal powder, (b) advice on any missing herbs, and (c) any other recommendations. I would, however, highly suggest that you try to get some Chinese (character or pinyin) translations for these herbs prior to going to the herbal store as it is very likely those store herbalists would not know the latin names which are shown in the formula.

[wentwest]

ntc,

Thanks for the link to the article/recipe! I'll definitely research the proper characters, and give it a try. Thank you very much for the information

To me this is an example of the best that the internet can be... a tool to bring people together from all parts of the world to share ideas and information. How did we ever manage before the internet??

In the spirit of the New Year, I'm thankful for this forum (and those responsible for it... thx Gene Ching) and all of the members who make it so great :)

[yuanfen]

FWIW- my repost from another forum...my accupuncturist/herbalist has helped me with my knee- not "cured"
it... but no surgery thank you and no replacement thank you and plenty of wing chun leg work, chor ma, biu ma, chi gerk and even ground work with that knee. But wont be entering
marathons or running with Marion Jones- much as I would love to.
A beauty of wing chun is the allowance to work within your limits
and adjust..
Ip Man himself supposedly had even better feet than hands- but kicked less and depended on hands later.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

acupuncture definitely hasa place in the healing systems. No healing system is a cure all. I would go only to an experienced and well trained acupuncturist.
I would not go to an MD or a chiropractor doing acupuncture.
Years ago an acupuncturist was not able to help me with my hearing loss-though there was a tempoary improvement. Could be that I should have finished the recommended number of treatments which I didnt..
My current acupuncturist has helped me and others substatntially.
He is very good in both diagnosis and treatment. He also was a faculty member in Tianjin and his training included western med courses as well in the first several years.
I have osteoarthritis in my left knee and narrowing of bone space
in the knee joint and bone spurs to boot. Given my love of CMA- an artificial knee is out of the question-it would put an end to stancing, kicking , footwork and everything else except walking pain free. (An orthopedist was shocked at what I could do with that knee- in spite of the xrays)
Ibuprofen does zilch for me. But accupuncture treatments keeps my pain at bay and keeps me efficient and mobile and effective in martial arts.
There are good and bad MDs- a bad one can kill you. And there are good and bad acupuncturists.
BTW my acupuncturist is an herbalist too and has helped people who I have known.
Aletrnative medicine including good acupuncture is definitely here to stay.

[ntc]

Man... Joy, you have been through a lot.... you show the scars of a true warrior !!!

I believe I read in some of the threads that you did tai chi as well. If you did Yang tai chi, that should help you with your orthopedic problem, and keeping your lower limbs and ligaments well lubricated and functioning will do you much good.

In general, I think it is exciting that TCM has come such a long way in the US. A lot of people are benefitting from the fruits of the art. And then, there are the true masters like your acupuncturists who are estalishing roots in the US and helping this profession to really have a solid foundation. Way cool !!

[azwingchun]

I have a very good TCM friend of mine who says that he prefers to use double distilled Rice wine, though it is a little more expensive he says. I usually use Vodka in mine, seems to work just fine. I had asked him about rubbing alcohol and he says that if you want to use it to keep cost down it should be only 50% and then 50% other, whether that is Vodka or whatever. He says rubbing alcohol is fine, but it evaporates to quickly.
He has given me about 7 different recipes, if anyone is interested I would be willing to share them. Just private message me if interested. ;)

[azwingchun]

I have a very good TCM practitioner friend of mine who says that he prefers to use double distilled Rice wine, though it is a little more expensive he says. I usually use Vodka in mine, seems to work just fine. I had asked him about rubbing alcohol and he says that if you want to use it to keep cost down it should be only 50% and then 50% other, whether that is Vodka or whatever. He says rubbing alcohol is fine, but it evaporates to quickly.
He has given me about 7 different recipes, if anyone is interested I would be willing to share them. Just private message me if interested. ;)

[Vash]

Soon as I get the money, I'm gonna mix up some of azwingchun's recipes.

[Phil Redmond]

ntc

From a TCM perspective, dark wine is an excellent blood mover, and hence would seem to be the better choice. I myself use the dark-colored Shiao Xing Rice Wine (drinking quality, which is a higher quality, versus the cooking version). I have found that to be very effective in the treatments I have administered. One of my good friends, a 70 year-old Dragon style master and also a TCM/Dit Da specialist from Hong Kong and trained in Dit Da in China, uses pure vodka most of the time. He says that its characteristic is extremely powerful and is even better than the dark wine. . .
Now I'm not sure which to use based on what you wrote. Can you explain the TCM reason for dark liqour being a better blood mover? I aways wondered if the coloring in liqours was added or natural. Also, I've been told that the liqour shouldn't be more than 40 proof. I used to think that a higher alcohol percentage was better. What's your take on that? It makes sense when you said that different herbs will have different chemical reaction times. I did find out that putting the herbs in a food proccessor and making a 'powder' instead of having pieces of the herbs helps a lot in dissolving them.

[Phil Redmond]

Since this thread seems to be going strong I would like to add what I have heard from both Western medical professionals and TCM practitioners. Always rub a contusion/bruise towards the extremities and away from the heart and lungs. Blood clots can travel to these areas.

[Phil Redmond]

wentwest
I've been told by many Chinese TCM people that the commercial jaus/jows and other medicines from China aren't regulated very well. I was told this on two occaisions when I was purchasing Zhen Gu Shui (sp)? from 2 different herb stores. The packaging looks exotic and all but the PRC's version of the FDA seems to have different standards form the West. IMO

[Phil Redmond]

wentwest,
It's a small world. I was a student of Kenny Gong. I'd be willing to say Sifu Gong saved my life with an internal medicine formula he gave me. I had a bad bruise in the area around my liver. He gave me a formula and sent me to an herbal shop. He cooked up the medicine, I drank it and he massaged the area. A while later I coughed up an ugly blood clot. I still have the formula with the Shing Yi logo on the paper it was written on.
BTW, he passed away a few years ago.

[wentwest]

Mr. Redmond,

I did not know that Kenny Gong had passed... I'm very sorry to hear that. It does explain why I couldn't track him down the last time I tried to in NYC (probably about two years ago). Your story about Mr. Gong possibly saving your life doesn't surprise me. He definitely knew his medecine and what he was doing. I'm glad I had the chance to meet him and be treated by him while he was still with us.

As for it being a small world, I don't know if you recall, but I emailed you a while back about Fu Jow Pai, and GM Wai Hong. It seems we met some of the same folks on our respective journeys. Yes the world seems smaller every year.

Shifting tangents here, I visited Cambodia last year with my girlfriend, and the first thing we did was visit Angkor Wat, even though we arrived late in the afternoon. It was approaching sunset (and the closing time for visiting the Wat), but we wanted to see what we could right away. Well, walking across the stone bridge to the Wat's entrance, we were the only two going in whil hundreds of people were filing out. We felt like Salmon swimming upstream.

About half way across the bridge I was walking with my head bowed down, marveling at the stone work when I heard, "Is that Anthony?" I almost ignored it thinking it was directed at someone else, then I heard my name called out, and I looked up to see an old friend of mine beaming at me. He and his new bride were on their honeymoon, and I didn't know that they would be in Siem Reap at the same time. Well that really made the relative size of the world sink home! I mean, what are the odds??

[Vash]

Anyone tried the Iron Body formula Gene's hawkin' over at the martialartsmart?

[Phil Redmond]

wentwest,
I got this from the link below:
"In 1996, just a few short months after giving this wonderful interview, Master Kenny Gong passed away. My heartfelt condolences to all of the students he left behind. I know that he is sorely missed."
http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/KGong.html
I remember writing you now. Fu Jow Pai Sifu Wai Hong was my first gung fu instructor after coming home from the Marines in 1970. This was before Tak Wah Eng, Paul Vizzio, Huey Cambrelen and lots of the big names at Fu Jow were even Sifus. Did I mention that Morgan Fairchild was my training partner in those days?

[wentwest]

Mr. Redmond,

Thank you for the link to the article/interview with Kenny Gong. I'm going to read it right after I post this.

And yes, you did mention that Morgan Fairchild was one of your training partners back then (though I had forgotten that).

*sigh* I guess I was just a few years too late ;)

Ah well, it seems I'm forever working on my timing!

Anthony

[aelward]

RE: Zhang Nao

Zhang Nao feels nice and tingly; it also has the properties of invigorating blood and transforming stagnation. Also expels wind and dampness, which are pathogens that can invade an injured area when the local defense mechanisms are weakened through trauma.


RE: Color of the wine

Based on the five-phases view of Chinese medicine, the color of herbs often imparts properties. Reds (in dark wines) are related to blood and are therefore beneficial in moving them. Whites are cooling, which can be a good thing in many traumatic injuries.

Students are always giving my Sifu alcohol for his birthday and Chinese New Year; but we have seen him use it (including XO!) for his Jiu. Also, you definitely want less than 100 proof because that is when it starts to evaporate too quickly.


RE: Dit Da practitioners:

If you are in the Bay Area, I recommend Dr. Chen Jian in Oakland. He was on the cover of Kung Fu Qigong magazine a while back, and was pretty famous in China. He played a role in Nanquan Wang, a classic mainland Chinese martial arts flick.

Anyway, I had an awful trapezius muscle spasm, could not even move my neck, and a bong sao was impossible. One treatment fixed that up immediately!

[yuanfen]

aelward sez:
If you are in the Bay Area, I recommend Dr. Chen Jian in Oakland
------------------------------------------------------------------
John- Doc Fai Wong of Choy li fut- is supposed to be a pretty good acupuncturist....?
joy

[aelward]

Hi Joy,

I have not heard anything about Sifu Wong's acupuncture. As for Dr. Chen, he does not do acupuncture; just dit-da.

[yuanfen]

John- thanks for the info on Dr. Chen.
Doc Fai Wong does do acupuncture.
He had come for a choi li fut seminar which I attended and I had a brief discussion with him - a second opinion if you will on acupuncture specifics.

[Ernie]

killer thread

can i ask yee of great wisdom
what would you say are some must haves
that all martial artist should keep for training injuries
since i have been through , broken back,collar bone , ribs,leg and fingers ,
scare tissue is making me sound like broken glass when i move :)
i have 2 jars of jow that have been brewing for 5 years one is wsl recipe and the other came froma a dr. out of brazil
but i never really use it

i have been able to keep functional by working out and stretching but this just mask the problems

so any advice would be welcome :D

p.s.
if anybody wants the jow recipe i have just email me it's in chinese wsl hand written.

[David Jamieson]

alcohol is a blender and the vehicle to spread teh herbs.

massage is what is going to break up a lot of the initial dead blood cells that gather at the area of hematoma.

the herbs used to sustain the healing process are varied.

arnica blossom, or root or leaves are of high importance in the making of a jow. The arnica possesses a great deal of the qualities required in a jow.

There are other herbs that promote heat and blood flow or that sustain the effects of those herbs that do.

the alcohol should be fairly vapourous and clean imo, the more residues in the alcohol is just more stuff that isn't doing anything just sticking to your skin.

cheers

[blooming lotus]

Am about to pass through Hong Kong, Deng Feng then on to Beijing. Does anyone know of a good hebalist in these of these districts? If they speak english, not neccessary but even better

[aelward]

Ernie,

I would love to see your jow recipe. Please e-mail me at: aelward@yahoo.com

Thanks!

[ntc]

Ernie:

In response to your question about your injuries, it really depends on your injuries. You may need to combine some deep tissue massage (Dit Da) using some of your jow, and might even have to make a plaster bandage to place over the injured area. This may need one to more treatments, depending on the severity and length of your injury(s). A suggestion, if you wish to explore the Chinese way of treating injuries, is to seek a Dit Da practitioner and have him take a look at your injuries and make a recommendation for you to treat yourself, as well as letting him treat you.

Meanwhile, you may also wish to consult an acupuncturist and let him know of your injuries. Unless you are in rough fights a LOT, one of the reasons why someone would get hurt frequently with the injuries you have (other than being a rowdy fighter) is a possibly deficient kidney system. The acupuncturist may be able to prescribe some herbal teas for you to tonify/strengthen your kidney system which would help lessen the injuries. In Chinese Medicine, the kidney system rule the muscles and bones in a lot of ways, hence weak kidney system implies weak muscle/bone system.

Hope that helps.

[ntc]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
ntc

Now I'm not sure which to use based on what you wrote. Can you explain the TCM reason for dark liqour being a better blood mover?

In all honesty, I am not sure I know the right reasons for why dark liquor is a better blood mover. Personally, I have used the dark liquid more than the white, and I have found it to be pretty effective. And you are right, a lot of the coloring comes from the herbs themselves.

At the same time, I can offer this argument. In Chinese Medicine, "dark" is oftentimes associated with Yang, which is also associated with "Heat", while "white/light" is associated with Cold. When you want blood to move, you usually would want something that is not cold as that would "freeze" the blood, so to speak. Using this argument, dark would be better than white. But that is only one perspective. The real bottom line is, whether you use white or dark, if it works, that would be the one to use, dark or light.

Perhaps, someone else has another argument for dark versus white wine base as a better blood mover???

[ntc]

Ernie:

I just thought of something. Looking at your post again, it appears that a lot of your injuries are bone-related. Here are two thoughts:

- you could think of using the over-the-counter linament "Zheng Gu Shui".... this one has a very good formula for assisting the healing of injuries to bones. You might want to give it a try.

- did you know that the Chinese believe that crabs possess a very special medicinal property for healing serious bone injuries? Well... now you do. One of the things you can do is:
. get a crab, empty out all the insides, as you want to use only the shell
. burn the crab shell till it is charred; then crush the shell into powder, and add this to your Dit Da Jow plaster.

Good luck.

[Ernie]

ntc
thanks for the response , my gung fu brother is into tcm and is a acupuncturist , he has offered to help me out , but i'm not to keen on letting things stick into me , not the pain i'm just a germaphobe , :D

i know it's all in my head

the injuries are in no way slowing me down , i'm just thinking down the line as i age , if i should do things now to help me later
working out and having a strict diet keeps my engine running well but the gears might be breaking down inside '' scar tissure makes a nasty grinding sound when i rotate my shoulder'' it's kind of funny
great party trick:D
but i'll give tcm a chance , any body in los angeles you can recomend , i wont go to my gung fu brother i don't mix up frienships like that

thank you again

[ntc]

Ernie.... you are welcome.

First of all, for the tonification of your spleen (and possibly some of the other organ systems, depending on your situation) fortunately does not necessarily entail having needles stuck in you. In fact, herbs are more appropriate for the tonifying, but the herbal teas do taste extremely bitter.... just a warning.

Regarding TCM in LA, I can't say that I know of a good one to point you to. But the good part is, for what we have been talking about, you should be able to go into any herbal store in Chinatown in downtown LA, see the acupuncturist/Chinese doctor who is there, tell him/her your condition, and you will be treated right there and then.

Just FYI.... there is also a good chance that if you saw a non-Chinese Acupuncturist who was also good at herbs, you may get prescribed an herbal formula in tincture form so that you just have to take drops, versus boiling the whole pack of raw herbs and drinking a whole bowl of very bitter soup. Since I am from China, I am advocate of the raw herb approach and it does not bother me, but I know that it does bother a lot of people. So I just wanted to let you know that there is an alternative available to you.

Meanwhile, perhaps someone else can recommend a good acupunturist in the LA area?

[Phil Redmond]

ntc,
What so you think of using Bo Jau? I have two formulas for it.
(For those who don't know, it's an internal tonic).
Some say it puts lead in your pencil. ;)


ernie, you're got at least 3 recipies on the way to you.
Paz

[ntc]

Do you know the latin pharmateutical or Mandarin Pinyin of the herb or the Chinese character? Off hand, can't say i recognize the herb "bo jau" (or is it a formula? or ???)

[Vash]

What's a good Jow or tonic for healing injuries to the cartilage and muscle of the rib cage?

[ntc]

Vash:

Any of the Dit Da jow formulas discussed in this thread and the over-the-counter ones (eg, five-photo brand, 701 brand, etc.) will be effective for your injuries. A key to the treatment is knowing how to massage and physically manipulate the injured area using the jow as a assisting healing facilitator. Then, in terms of any associated internal injuries to that area, the internal injury will need to be diagnosed and then herbs will be prescribed for intake to treat those internal injuries. And depending on whether any Qi flow was obstructed and how seriously, some form of Qi Gong breathing exercises may also be prescribed.

Hope that answered your question.

[Vash]

Thanks, it did. I'll check out getting a few of the Jows mentioned.
Wish we had a China Town around this part of the country, but unfortunately we don't.

[Phil Redmond]

That's the trouble with Romanization.
It's usually sold in Chinese herb shops. It's made with liquor and herbs and taken internally, a shot glass daily. Some one has compared it to the old Geritol tonic if you know what I mean. I know it's pronounced, bo jow/jau in Cantonese though that doesn't help you with the tone right? I'll ask a friend of mine to write the characters for it.

[ntc]

That would be great.

Meanwhile, if I read out "Bo Jow" loud, it would translate to "Precious" (or "Valuable") "Wine". This could just be a generic term to indicate a very special herbal formula mixed with wine that has many benefits. If this were the case, then it would be difficult to say without seeing the formula. But generally, you can say that they are like taking vitamins or vitamin supplements to help with strengthening your body.

A lot of the off-the-counter herbal teas sold in Chinese herbal stores are really good for tonifying your body, and making it strong, especially (as Ernie had pointed out earlier) as we age and our body starts showing signs of wear and tear. These in general are very good tonics (I myself frequently take one called "Zhi Pak Dei Huang Wan", used to tonify the general body, clear Heat, and detoxify), and are usually inexpensive (about $3 per bottle good for about 30 servings). The main thing to be careful about is to know the current symptoms of your body (eg, are you currently over-heating, or over-cooling, or in TCM terms.... Yin or Yang, Excess or Deficient) so that you would not pick the wrong tonic formula (eg, you would not want to pick a formula that had a strong Heat element if you were overheated as it would make your Heat-related symptoms worse).

[Becca]

Don't make my own, for the most part. But I do have a nice, non-Chinese linement. It isn't as effective as Maridian (Brand name Jow I use) but can be made quickly, and can be used on broken skin as soon as the bleeding has stopped.

1 12 oz bottle Aloa in a jell
3 drops camphor
3 drops lavender oil

Also make it without the camphor for general pain releif. Rub a bit into your temples when you have a migrain, close eyes for 5 minutes, and the migrain's gone.:)

[ntc]

Very interesting, Becca.... will try it sometime. Thanks for sharing.

[Ernie]

ntc


couldn't find ''Zhi Pak Dei Huang Wan''
http://www.wrc.net/store/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=500
is this similar

also this any good
http://www.wrc.net/store/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=503

and this is the other one you were talking about
http://www.wrc.net/store/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=508

just lining up my shopping list
thank you for all your help , you to phil and john

[Ernie]

just wanted to add this
http://800herbdoc.com/

been hearing some really good stuff about this guys products , two close friends have been taking his stuff for a year and they keep ranting on about how it made a big difference .
so i thought i would pass it on , i'll give it a shot and get back to you on it

[ntc]

Ernie:

"Liu Wei Di Huang Wan" is similar. It is a bit more of a warming nature, while the other one that you could not find is a bit more of a cooling one. The other one could also be spelt "Zhi Ba Di Huang Wan".... (I am not sure of the pinyin spelling).

Regarding "Shi Quan Da Bu Wan", I am not familiar with that formula as I have not used it, but based on the description, sounds like another kidney/spleen type tonic that focuses on certain deficiencies that happen post-morning. So, couldn't give you a feedback on that... sorry. Perhaps someone else could??

[aelward]

"Zhi Bai (Bo) Di Huang Wan" cools heat in the lower burner (i.e., Kidneys and Liver) While nourishing Yin (imagine that your organs are made of sponge, the Yin is the water in the sponge that gives it body) . It is good for older people who have a deficiency in Yin with heat symptoms like hot flashes, night sweats, dark urine, etc.

It is a variation of "Liu Wei Di Huang Wan," which nourishes Yin. You would generally use Liu Wei, but Zhi Bai is more frequently used in peri-menopausal women.

"Shi Quan Da Bu Yin" (10-ingredient complete nourishing drink) is a warm formula that strengthens Blood and Qi. It is a combination of "Si Jun Zi Tang" (four gentlemen soup) which strengthens Qi and "Si Wu Tang" (four ladies soup) which nourishes blood with the addition of Huang Qi and Rou Gui (cinnamon). It is typically used for people who suffer from chronic consumptive disease but do not have heat symptoms. It is often misused by the general public for fatigue-- it is often overkill and can mess with the overall harmony of the body.

A good brand for all of these pills is Min-Shan, which has strict quality controls and GMP certificates. Many other herbal formulas contain pharmaceuticals, heavy metals, pesticides, and other nasty stuff. Best to buy from California, which has strict import controls.

[Ernie]

wow tcm 101
let me get my note book out things are getting interesting :D

o.k. what would be something a training fanatic such as myself [ wieghts,ma,running, etc] 7 days a week

would use as preventive maintenance ,

as far as protien,carbs,fats,and supplements that's all covered , these things i know about .

just thought i would open my mind to other alternitives

[vikinggoddess]

nice thread. thanks for the tip ntc.

i don't think anyone mentioned a mugwort/ai ye soak yet. you can make a strong decoction then put a towel in the tea and wrap your foot (or whatever) up in the towel. resoak the towel and continue application for 20 or 30 min.

you can also use the mugwort for moxabustion over bruises after massage and oil application to promote healing. a moxa stick is easier, but cones work fine if you are careful. here is a demo for insulation moxabustion. if you do it over a bruise, just put a paper towel between the skin and cone instead of the ginger.
http://chinesetherapeutics.org/moxademo.html

i use a home made wine externally and internally. it's just the herbs i have on hand in vodka, but i've had good results w/ it: san qi, frankincence/ru xiang, dang gui. when i get some myrhh/mo yao i will add it too.

[ntc]

Vikinggoddess:

You may want to try adding Hong Hua and Xue Jie into your formula.... these are primary herbs that are added to most Dit Da formulas for treating trauma injuries The other ones you are using.... San Qi, Mo Yao, Ru Xiang, are some of the other key components.

[vikinggoddess]

thanks, ya i know there a so many many herbs. i'm slowly building my pharmacy starting with key herbs from the main categories.

do you also use tao ren? i learned to use hong hua always together with tao ren for trauma.

another idea is to cook with zang hong hua/saffron, which is similar to hong hua but stronger to cool blood and release toxicity, when you have a trauma injury.

[ntc]

I did use tao ren with hong hua a ways back, but when I was getting the same results with hong hua alone, I decided to go that route. I have not tried cooking with saffron but will give that a shot sometime.

Two other herbs that I include often with my formulas are San Ma Chuen and San Shek Lek (sorry, these are Cantonese pinyins, and I don't know either their Mandarin pinyin or Latin names). They are incredible pain killers and detoxifiers, and unfortunately they are also almost impossible to buy at US herb stores. I have unsuccessfully tried to do so, and my only supplies are those that I purchased while back in Hong Kong.

By the way, thanks for sharing your mugwort decoction. I have to try that sometime.

[Ernie]

hey been doing my research on stuff came across this what's your take on this statement



The reason I use only Organically Grown and Wild Harvested Botanicals is simple. They are STRONGER. This has been known for years. Because better care is taken in feeding these plants the natural nutrients they require, Organically Grown food, herbs, and plants have 4 to 10 times more nutrition and healing plant chemicals (phytochemicals) in them.
To me it’s simple. That’s a 4 to 10 times better chance you have of getting well or preventing disease. Our family of Wild Harvesters are the best and most conscious in the industry. They never strip the land and if the plant is in short supply, like Ginseng for example, they replant it. Wild Harvested means going out into the field where the plant has chosen to live and pick the best of the best, the strongest, healthiest, most vital plants which in turn will give you the most strength, health and vitality too.



Almost every herbal product sold in America uses imported commercial grade herbs. Why would anyone import herbs from the other side of the world that naturally grow right here in the United States? There is only one reason, foreign herbs are dirt cheap. These herbs are imported from India, China, Egypt, Mexico, wherever, where slaves people get paid $15 a year to pick them. I pay American Organic farmers $40 to $50 a pound for the finest organic Habanero Cayenne peppers when I could buy them from China or India, like all of the other companies do, for 40 or 50 CENTS a pound. All I can say is you get what you pay for. These cheap, dirty, imported herbs are not only weak in strength, but what they are carrying on them can make you real sick. These countries have uncontrolled use of pesticides, insecticides and chemical fertilizers. Many still use DDT. These herbs are very often contaminated with E. coli bacteria from human waste and unclean conditions. I ask you, if when you travel to these countries and you can’t eat the food or drink the water without getting deathly ill, why would you use the herbs from these countries when you’re sick? It is a good way to make yourself even sicker.


If this isn't bad enough, most manufacturers sterilize their herbs with toxic gas



When imported herbs finally reach American shores, they are almost always put into Ethylene Oxide Gas Chambers to kill bacteria. Ethylene Oxide treatment is standard with all the major herb importers and suppliers and its residues can stay on the plant for over a year. EO, as the industry refers to it, is proven to cause Cancer, Leukemia, mutate unborn children and even cause abortions, kill liver and nerve cells. Do I need to go on? This is a dirty little secret of the herbal manufacturers and they hope you won’t ever find out. A few years back I wrote an expose on the EO gassing horror in a few magazines and newsletters. You would think that the American herbal councils and associations would have addressed this issue, but instead I was told by friends that they had closed door meetings to discuss what to do about Dr. Schulze, the whistle blower, who is hurting the herbal product industry. I don’t give a **** about the herbal product industry. My allegiance is to my customers and their health!
Recently, many herbs sold as Organic in America have been impregnated with Ethylene Oxide toxic gas too, and they can still be called Organic. After all they were grown organically. Recently one of our Organic suppliers told us that we were the only company they know of that will only use non-gassed herbs, and ALL of the other herbal manufacturers requested E.O. gassed herbs.
Our herbs are organically grown on pristine, clean, certified organic American farms from the cool, rich, damp forests of the Pacific Northwest to the fertile Mississippi bottom land to the Florida Panhandle. They are shade dried and many are shipped to us overnight, fresh and in wet burlap. We also support transitional farmers who are in the organic certification process. These farmers and their families need to be supported for making the right choice. We spend the majority of every year finding the best farms, the most premium herbs, the cream of the crop. Our herbs are the richest, highest quality and most potent herbs available anywhere in the world, and they are never gassed with poisons.






If you read my letter to you on pages 4 and 5, I started making herbal formulae in my kitchen to save my life, not to make money. And then later on in the clinic, I made my herbal formulae even stronger to save my patients’ lives. I have always had one focus when making my herbal formulae – GETTING PEOPLE WELL!



The herbal research books and the so-called herbal experts say that in manufacturing herbal extracts, you usually only need to put 10% herbs into the bottom of the container and the rest is the extracting liquid. They say that 10% herbs are all that’s necessary and if you use more herbs, you’re wasting them. WHO CARES. Have they forgotten people’s lives are at stake? Let me tell you, if it were their ass on the line they would be cramming herbs into the vat with a pile driver and then jumping up and down on top of it to get every last root and leaf in. Actually, when it’s their ass on the line, they go to the doctor and take antibiotics, I know, they tell me. Well my family and I don’t use drugs, we don’t go to doctors EVER and my herbal products are our medicine too. We use every one of my formulae – me, my wife and my seven year old son. We depend on them. I learned long ago, never skimp on putting enough herbs into the extracts. I also learned whatever you do, fill the vats to the top, the very top, because someday your life may depend on it.





The big difference between me and all the other herbal manufacturers is that I ran a clinic for 20 years. I know what it feels like to sit face to face with the sobbing parents of a dying child and watch it take its last breath. When you run a clinic, especially like I did with many very sick people, you do anything and everything to make the strongest herbal extracts possible. After all, when your parent, spouse or child is dying, you never skimp on the herbs!
We start by filling the vats up to the very top with my herbal formulae blends of roots, barks, leaves and flowers. Then we add our liquid menstrum to just cover the herbs. Once the herbs are saturated we wet grind the herbs into an applesauce-like consistency. After a day or two of sitting, the herbal mash settles to about half to two thirds to the top of the vat. Then we add more herbs, wet grind again and keep doing this until when the mash settles, there is only about an inch of liquid on the top. This is about 98% concentration. No one could squeeze more herbs into our vats!
Once we have a vat full of this herbal mash, we let it brew for about 14 days. The phases of the moon are as important for farmers planting and harvesting crops as they are for manufacturing herbal extracts. Consequently, we start the herbal brewing process on the new moon and strain and press it on the full moon, the same way herbal doctors have done it for centuries. Modern manufacturers say that my 14 day brewing cycles are old-fashioned, a waste of time and unnecessary. They have abandoned this tried and true method of making high potency herbal extracts for modern and quick 2 to 3 day special extraction processes.
After 14 days we press the mash out in our 24,000 pound pressure herbal press. Because of our concentration of herbs and the thick jelly-like consistency of the brewed mash, the pressing and filtering is a very slow and time-consuming process. The results are we get much less herbal tonic compared to other manufacturers, but what comes out of our presses is the finest, most saturated, richest and most potent herbal juice extracts in the world.

it goes on and on here is the site http://800herbdoc.com/p8.html

[ntc]

Originally posted by Ernie
ntc


and this is the other one you were talking about
http://www.wrc.net/store/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=508


Ernie: Yuppers

[Phil Redmond]

ntc, here's the Chinese characters for the internal Bo Jau medicine. I've been taking this for 20 years. It's really good for stamina and general well being IMO. I know the last character is wine/liquor. What is the first one?

[Phil Redmond]

While on the topic of hung fa. There are some stores that sell both safflower and saffron as hung fa. Saffron is way more expensive so most jaus are made with the cheaper safflower. I always use saffron from Spain which is the best and the most expensive.

[aelward]

The first character is used a lot in Chinese medicine, often translated as "tonify." The conceptual idea from the character is that you supplement or make-up for something that is lacking.

Most formulas that "tonify" are consumed internally. They might be used to strengthen a specific organ system, muscle, sinew, Qi, Blood, Essence, Yin, Yang, or other aspects of TCM physiology.

[Phil Redmond]

aelward,
Thanks a lot for the translation.

[blooming lotus]

speaking of improving qi and improving micro - cellular circulation and overall function, what can anybody tell me about LingZhi?

[vikinggoddess]

ernie,
i m very much in favor of growing chinese herbs in the west. if you want to do this, a good book is "Herbal Emissaries bringing Chinese herbs to the west, a guide to gardening, herbal wisdom and well-being" by Steven Foster and Yue ChongXi. Right now i am growing aloe, huang qin/scutellaria, fo ti/ he shou wu, zi su ye (zi)/ perilla, bohe/mint, ai ye/ mugwort, cong bai/scallion. kudzu/ge gen is all over Georgia. i wonder if it can be harvested.

I don't like to rely on imported herbs for a number of reasons, but most herbs I have are from China. it seems it is easier to find Chinese patent formulas with herbs grown in the US compared to bulk herbs. I really don't like patents and would choose bulk imports over domestic pills due to the strength of bulk herb formulas. i would like to see the US Chinese medicine community focus together on herb cultivation. here is another reason why this is important:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L07291760.htm

Blooming lotus,
i don't know how lingzhi/ reishi works on a cellular & molecular level. here is what i know from my teacher though: the active ingredient is in the spores. it increases immunity and is useful for treating cancer and hiv. highest quality is purplish-red.

[aelward]

I wonder how the nature of the herb changes when grown in another location. Afterall, some regions of China are the preferred origin of some specific types of herbs; and even Ginseng grown in America significantly changes the properties. Given climatic and soil differences, it would not surprise me if there were differences in quality. Not to mention the supposed difference in potency between cultivated and wild herbs.

As for cultivating herbs here to protect the natural ecosystems, I think you would have to look at the environmental impact of introducing foreign plants here. Also, I wonder if herb harvesting in China is doing the same amount of environmental damage as the mass deforestization of South and North America due to American consumption habits (thank you McD's!).

[aelward]

Hi Ernie,

Without knowing your overall constituion, it would be hard to give you any recommendations. But basically, from a TCM point of view, someone who trains really hard is expending a lot of Qi. When your Qi starts to run low, your body starts tapping into its Essence-- a vital substance that cannot be replaced (well, that is open to debate...).

So for someone who is otherwise healthy and trains rigorously, it might be better to have a "warm" diet that helps build Spleen function and Qi production as well as foods/herbs that support the Kidneys (where Essence is stored). The herb "He Shou Wu," available in concentrated pill form, is supposed to be good for protecting Essence.

Also, if you do a lot of high impact training, then you probably have stagnation issues-- basically, getting hit or subjecting your muscles and bones to impact can cause Qi stagnation and Blood stasis. Therefore, taking a lot of nourishing herbs will only further encourage stagnation-- they should be balanced with herbs that promote Qi and Blood circulation. Also, use Jow on places where you get hit frequently-- like the forearms after a lap-bong-da cycle or wooden dummy work.

Also, Taiji practice cannot hurt. It helps improve Qi and Blood flow, as well as build Qi reserves. From a Five-Elements point of view, it is very Water (circular motions, stillness) in nature; as opposed to Wing Chun which is Wood (flexibility, upright, direct). Wood easily generates Fire which rises (think: Yip Man, throat cancer; Wong Sheung Leung, stroke; Bruce Lee, cerebral edema). In the Five Element relations, Water can nourish Wood while control fire.

Once again, these are just general terms. You really should seek out a Chinese Medicine Practitioner so that they can tell you where your strengths and weaknesses are and how to improve that.

[vikinggoddess]

for sure the potency of the herbs changes with environment. there are already a lot of chinese herbs that are growing here and some relatives. the relatives are discussed in the book i mentioned. chinese substitute species quite often. there are plenty of herbs already here to cultivate. plant trade an experimentation has been fundemental throughout the development of chinese medicine and should continue in n. america with both chinese and n. american herbs. we need to continue in this way (and also with research) in order to make this medicine evolve.

[blooming lotus]

what I can glean from information I have on lingzhi/reshi is that is is effective for TOTAL qi regeneration, which is why your teacher probably tells you it is useful for treatment of cancer, hiv and other incurable diseases and viruses. That was my first thought when I read the information.
At a micro-celuar level pertaining to organ function, it works on nanospherical ranges of measurements ( one hundred thousandth the width of a human hair), stimulating activity for want of better description, pushing "bad" qi out of cells through force of the new qi influx. These spores can also apparently be incorperated into fabric to cause rre(reflective resonant energy) in effect reflecting the qi back into our bodies ( being that we absorb qi and radiate qi at a particular frequency conducive with the qi omitence from the what I now know is the spores.
Of course, cultivation methods and climate at growth of the reishi are huge factors but if I had an essence made from these spores
cultivated at the right temperature and manufactured by this uniquely patented method, it would be safe to assume, that using thesse porducts both externally in fabric and internally as a top-up essence and aintence peptide, a person would achive max qi at all times and inccur resulting full health right?
I actually used these products for a while, and had awesome qi for iron shirt etc and was feeling more healthful and vital than I could of imagined was possible. I lost alot of weight though, which led me to believe that bodies function best at this very lean muscle and fat level and because of prequ qi levels for this state of function that this is probably how the monks and yogis do it on little or no food for long periods ( but perhaps without the lingzhi :D )
If this is the case...that this promotes full qi and micro-cellaur function ( including organ function etc) doesn't that leave anything else redunant? ( except maybe a good soothing jau ):D

[Ernie]

aelward
hey thanks man ,
i just started taking noni juice just to see what happens :D
but i'm going to china town on sat. to go shopping

[ntc]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
ntc, here's the Chinese characters for the internal Bo Jau medicine. I've been taking this for 20 years. It's really good for stamina and general well being IMO. I know the last character is wine/liquor. What is the first one?

Phil: The first one is the character for "Bo", which means "to fix, or to mend". So in the context of "Bo Jow" for Dit Da, it would mean "a wine to fix or to repair".

However, another use of this is totally different, and refers to "make-up banquet". "Jow" is also the chinese character used for "banquet", so "bo" in this context would mean to repair a banquet, ie, make up for a banquet you missed.

[Becca]

I think I'm beginning to understand why I have a hard time learning Chinese.:D

[ed78]

found this recipe, how does it sound
Fu Zi--30 gm (1 oz. is 28 gm. For convenience, we say 30 gm)

Ban Xia--30 gm

Di Gu Pi--60 gm

Bai Bu--60 gm

Long Gu--30 gm (optional--this is heat-treated cow bone (dragon bone))

Tian Nan Xing--30 gm

Hong Hua--30 gm

She Chuang Zi--30 gm

Chuan Xiong--30 gm

Hua Jiao--15 gm--will be phased out due to new FDA restrictions

San Qi--15 gm

Xue Jie--30 gm

Ru Xiang--30 gm

Mo Yao--30 gm

Ding Xiang--30 gm

Dang Gui--30 gm

Da Huang--15 gm

Add separately after cooking:

Camphor/Borneol Crystals--15 gm

Menthol Crystals--15 gm

it is for one gallon

[vikinggoddess]

what is the preparation method? for external or internal use?

30g FuZi and 15g Da Huang sounds kind of ridiculous to me for internal use hit medicine, but I'm no expert. If it is indeed for internal use decoction, then FuZi must be prepared in boiling water approximately 1 hour in advance to remove toxicity. If this solution makes the tongue tingle, then it is still toxic and FuZi must be boiled longer.

http://alternativehealing.org/fu_zi.htm

[ed78]

"It is a great general purpose Jow for Iron Palm, bruise healing, pain reducing, and circulation enhancing. "

found this recipe on a website, only description available. was gonna order it but wasn't sure if its any good. i can post the site if anyone wants.

[ntc]

ed78:

Interesting formula.... since it came from someone else, it is difficult to try to decipher why it was put together the way it is.

Here is my take on it:
- looking at the combination, it appears like a combination of two types of formulas
- one formula is for bruise/injury repair (internal or external intake)
- the other is internal injury, especially to the chest area (internal intake likley)
- if I were to make a guess, I would say that the formula would be very applicable to hits sustained in the upper body area, especially in the chest and back
- the herbs would help to detox any internal blood stagnation in that area, and assist in preventing further degeneration of the victim's health by protecting against external pathogenic invasion like Wind and Cold

At the same time, you definitely could use it for Iron Palm training, cause the healing of bruise ability is there, but some of the herbs may be wasted in this case, as they will not be relevant to what you are trying to use them for.

Also, if the linament were to be taken internally, I agree with Vikinggoddess about caution on the preparation, especially pertaining to the toxicity of Fu Zi. If this was external, then the quantity is a good one for use as a pain analgesic. However, if this was internal consumption, you may wish to research this a bit further before trying it. Sometimes, very toxic herbs are used to repel the poisonous injury inflicted internally by the iron palm strikes, but this is not very common. Again, if this were the case, you will want to know what you are doing before executing.

To reiterate, this is just guessing from my side. Probably only someone who is either the author of or has ties to the original formula will be able to give a really good account of the basis of this formula and its application.

Hope this helps.

[blooming lotus]

so to get best effectiveness out of a jou, what ingredients do you folks consider as must haves?

[vikinggoddess]

I would like to suggest external wear of bloodstone for injury. I am finding success in using this stone for women with stagnant menstual blood with clotting. I think this is also the best choice for use in gua sha. You can get these stones in pefect shape round 40 mm for gua sha. For using stones, the best placement of the stone is near the injury or area of bloodstagnation. I do have also a preparation method for using this stone internally, which I will share if anyone is interested. I am wanting to hear some feed back as to how this stone works compared to other methods that you currently use.

You need at least a cherry sized piece of stone. You can find it easily in a stone store. It is dark green with red spots. Looks like this:
http://healingcrystals.net/images/stones/300315bloodstones.gif

I call it the Dang Gui stone. Element Wood. Moves stagnant Liver Qi and Blood.

If there are many people here who are interested to tryk this then I can make a bulk order of the donuts which are okay for wear or for gua sha. I will only charge you cost. I am just interested for learning the results in hit medicine, but I believe they will be good.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

A friend of mine puts a type of beetle in his jow. I have seen it in Ark Wong's jow also. Does anyone know what type of beetle it is?
Thanks in advance!

[ntc]

Without seeing the bug itself, it is hard to guess which one it is as a lot of bugs are added to Chinese formulas and linaments. I would venture to guess that a good possibility is that it is Chan Tui (also known as Cicaeda (sp?) ). Chan Tui (only the skin/shell is used) is very commonly used in decoctions to treat arthritis because of its effectiveness in treating in external Wind. Arthritis in TCM is directly related to Wind combined with Dampness (usually) and sometimes other pathogenic factors. In some external Chinese linaments, a formula very similar to Dit Da has some Wind herbs added to it which therefore makes it very effective in not only treating trauma, but in arthritis as well. That would be my guess. In addition, oftentimes, you would also add She Chuan Zi to the formula.... this combination with Chan Tui makes a very good arthritis formula when added to Dit Da Jow. Soaking period is the same as Dit Da Jow.

[azwingchun]

I have a recipe that has oriental ****roaches (if I remember it correctly) in it......can't remember the Chinese name of it right off hand, I will have to look at the formula again.