Southern-style whirlwind kick

[LittleGhost]

Hi,
I suppose you know this flying kick where you jump up with your left knee up for instance, turn 360 degrees leftward in the air, while your right foot kicks around in a crescent shape, finally landing on the left side of the body on the ground.

I'd be interested in some sensible applications for this technique, and I don't mean the obvious and oh-so-practical "you turn completely around in the air to kick a guy to the mouth and then fall down". Were you taught any?

I was taught it can be an escape maneuver when you are thrown with a hip- or shoulderthrow - with your right arm being seizes, you go with the motion of the throw, jumping and over-rotating your body to the left, so as to fall on your side rather than on your head.

Any comments/other applications?

[Tit Sa]

Sounds like some bull$hit acrobatic wushu maneuver to me.

I guess it can be an escape move; but then some people see Jesus Christ in a potato chip too.

[LittleGhost]

AFAIK This technique can be found in 'traditional' forms too, especially in those that contain more 'ground fighting' (as in fighting from the floor, not grappling) moves. It is usually followed with some kind of scissor kicks while lying on the side.

The idea is that this kind of "extreme" techniques (tumbling,falling etc.) are mostly used to escape dire situations, such as being pushed off ballance, locked or thrown. So using it for escaping hip throws isn't so highly improbable, IMHO. After all when you got thrown, over-rotating using this (or similar) maneuver is the only thing you can do to prevent you from falling on your head.

But I'd be interested if other forum members have different applications.

[David Jamieson]

if you attempted a tornado kick while your right arm was in a lock and you were being thrown, you would most likely get your arm broken.

just envision it in your head for a sec...ok? there ya go, broken arm. :D

from my personal viewpoint, i like this kick, it's fun to do, it takes some skill and ability, and of course it is found in quite a few forms in a few cma.

does the kick have a practical use? I haven't honestly seen a demonstration of a practical use for this kick. At least not the 360 degree version of it.

I would be interested on what other north Shaolin players give as an app to this kick as well.

cheers

[LittleGhost]

I don't know what you mean - in most (if not all) hip throws, your arm isn't locked, so there is no danger of breaking your arm.
Maybe you are thinking about a plain tornado kick, rather than the southern version where you rotate horizontally and land on your side.

But there is really nothing easier than trying it out - have someone throw you with a hip throw(hand+head), much like in the "real" hipthrow, ie so that you'd land on your head/shoulder (gently - more like just putting you down).

Just go with the momentum and do a "falling tornado kick" (not a 'northern' tornado kick but 'southern' one - your spine almost horizontal instead of being vertical). Done correctly, you land on your side just like what you trained for by doing the "falling tornado kick".

Don't take my word for it, just try it.

[Tit Sa]

In a correct throw the person is put on his head. He isn't thrown into it like in Kano Judo.

As I said, Jesus Christ in a potato chip.

[cerebus]

Heh, heh! I know what you're talkin' about LittleGhost. Yeah, it seems like it could be very practical as a hip (or even shoulder) throw defense. In fact, that's about allI can really see it as being. You're not realistically going to smash the top of his foot or finish off a downed attacker with it (as some people actually believe, LOL). And the scissors kick afterwards is a good followup to the throw defense (well, potentially anyway). Later.:D

[SifuAbel]

The only things I can think of is that you are grabbing with your left hand or "wrapping the pole " with the right as you come around and kick the back of his head then land with him under you.

Or that you are going for a leg scissor or sweep after the kick. This is done in drunken monkey a lot but without the kick or the turn..

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by LittleGhost
I don't know what you mean - in most (if not all) hip throws, your arm isn't locked, so there is no danger of breaking your arm.
Maybe you are thinking about a plain tornado kick, rather than the southern version where you rotate horizontally and land on your side.

But there is really nothing easier than trying it out - have someone throw you with a hip throw(hand+head), much like in the "real" hipthrow, ie so that you'd land on your head/shoulder (gently - more like just putting you down).

Just go with the momentum and do a "falling tornado kick" (not a 'northern' tornado kick but 'southern' one - your spine almost horizontal instead of being vertical). Done correctly, you land on your side just like what you trained for by doing the "falling tornado kick".

Don't take my word for it, just try it.

What hardcore southern system uses this kick the way you describe it? The only place I have seen it is in comtemporary wushu dit da (falling).

GHD

[Eddie]

r u talking about the kick in nan chuan, tornado kick and the player lands on the floor with his one leg in front and the other bend?

That kick is good for training break falls and a few other things, but I doubt that it is realy that practical.

I hear what you are trying to explain about using it as a counter for a throw, the movements are similar, but I dont know if it was intended as such.

[Tit Sa]

Eddie you hit the nail on the head.

That is neither a "counter" or an "escape" move to a throw.

It is at most a breakfall, a bad one at that, and that is already giving wushu more credit than it deserves.

99.99%, the original intention of that move was aesthetics.

[Eddie]

> 99.99%, the original intention of that move was aesthetics.

Agreed. Dont get me wrong, its a great form and that move is good for basics. Woulnt use it as a break fall, but I can see the thought behind it.
I have nothing against modern wushu, some moves might be overdone, but then again, the trainign will surely make u a better athlete,

[mantis-1]

So can someone enlighten me as to what southern style has this kick.....

[nospam]

Here's a practical use..believe it or not...I was seconds from a bar fight and I used it to discourage the 2 morons from getting hurt.

I was pretty pumped (2 zombies) and ready to go (my 'tested' limit was 3 guys, so I wasn't worried about just 2 (besides, most people grouped in 2-3 fight as individuals and the 3rd (person yet to be smacked) is most likely gunna quit before he gets started)..so I called them both on and did a tornado kick with a major emphasis on the smacking of my foot to hand just prior to landing. It was pure hollywood but as we all do..they bought it hook line and sinker.

They looked at me and decided they'd try one more time with the Ladies inside than dance with me outside :D

We trained for this kick on the heavy bags. With full momentum of a good forward jump and good execution..it can work. It is a very advanced kick and you need to know how and when to use it. It is no different than any other advanced technique. It should be practised, tested in safe conditions and become second nature. I had a lot of trial and error inside the kwoon with this, no different than any other advanced attack that would otherwise expose me to more risk than reward. But simply because YOU do not know how to use it or fail to see it's application beyond the inexplicable, does not automatically place it in the garbage bin.

There are many aspects of Kung fu that seem improbable..at least at the beginning stages. But never impossible. I remember doing a 360 spinning backfist as a bridge in a tournament at Black belt level. Guess what...it worked.

Of course using (training) a kick such as the one discussed herein is a dangerous adventure. For both you and your unlucky training partner...this is one reason why it is best done at the advanced stage. There needs to be trust and control on your movements.

I say work towards the improbable. It'll simply become normal with achievement of good gung.

nospam.
:cool:

[Tit Sa]

Nospam-

Umm...what you did is the traditional tornado kick. That is different from the wushu crap that LittleGhost described; in which you get a running start, do the kick, then land on your side. With emphasis on how high you go into the air, and the form you have when landing on the ground.

[nospam]

Oh..heh heh. As I posted I wondered about that.

Oh well..there was a story to tell anywho.

I've seen THAT move done in the movies as a means to get out of the way..sort of like when Neo and Whatshername walked the walls in the Matrix to dodge all the flying bullets :D

I imagine when it comes to wushu, we must remember it incorporates 95% acrobatic type moves that are plausable within its scope of creation. In otherwords, let's do sumfin fancy to attract attention from dem wide-eyes! Hey. Look at us! What do you have..ice capades?!? Ha!

nospam.
:cool:

[cerebus]

"95% acrobatic type moves"
Actually that particular breakfall/kick and the "Carp Kip" to get back onto one's feet are the only acrobatic moves in Wushu's Nan Chuan form. The rest of the techniques are taken straight from Choy Lay Fut & Hung Gar (performed at fast-forward speed :D ).

[Eddie]

Dont care what others say, I love nan chuan.
Then again, I like most types of forms (even wushu).
You think there is something wrong with me? :D

No spam, I liked your website. very cool stuff.

[Jet Johnson]

This kick is a finishing move, after throwing your opponent off balance backwards. When I first started practicing, I would use it often and not only never land it, but also get tired a lot faster. Until I was told by my teacher that it is only intended to be used either to create some distance between you and your opponent, or as a finishing move after a combination.

[LittleGhost]

Thank ya'll for your input. It seems that we agree (well at least some of us :-) that it is not a kick, but rather a breakfall.

I don't know if this is related, but master Liang Shou Yu (sp?) in his book about Shuai Chiao shows similar move to throw your opponent after your leg is caught.

Tit Sa:
>It is at most a breakfall, a bad one at that,

Why do you think it is a 'bad' breakfall? What does a 'good' breakfall look like then?

But I started to wonder myself - is this technique traditional or not? Do you really think it was made up recently for aesthetic reasons only?

I think I've seen it being used in southern chinese 'dog boxing' forms. Without a running start and linked with hand techniques. I always thought that the falling version is more 'traditional' than the classic 'northern' tornado kick (landing on your feet).

Can anybody enlighten me on the origins of this technique?