Do you use a backfist a lot?

[IronFist]

A lot? Or ever? When sparring/fighting? Do you use it as a lead or in the middle of a combo?

Discuss.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

yes and usually after blocking to start a combo vs. leading or middle.

though i suppose i do those as well. it's been a little while.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i never actually do a spinning back fist while sparring but i think about it sometimes.

[Liokault]

I never use it but I do wonder why it is banned in some kick boxing.

[Oso]

back fist to the face is pretty fast but what I really want is for them to block so I can then grab their blocking arm.

[yenhoi]

I use it as kinda like general move for sweeping or covering the line in order to pickup what ever it is he happens to be doing. Also for covering while I switch leads, or to grab onto things (or at least some kinda bridge....) After any other punch, you can roll that arm/hand into a backfist with or without any sort of stepping/footwork. Its a primary movement in nearly any drill that we do, empty handed or with sticks or knives. There are also arm wrenches, levers, and my favorite: destructions - that arise out of the backhand motion.

:eek:

[David Jamieson]

no.

i favour jabs, hooks and crosses moreso than any other punching attack.

cheers

[Chang Style Novice]

Backfist is pretty fast, but also pretty weak. Tactically, if you're in a position to backfist your opponent, you've probably got both hands on the same side of him, and if you can reach his face with your backfist, he's probably able to reach the back of your head with a stronger technique, like those KL mentioned.

In other words, if you're about to throw a backfist, it may be that you're in a tight spot because of poor footwork and are throwing it out of desperation. Spinning backfists - I dunno. As I've said before, I don't want to turn around when I'm fighting for any reason. Just seems like too much opening.

[Merryprankster]

More importantly, I think, is the structure of the backfist. It doesn't actually stop anything. A jab will interrupt forward movement. A backfist will not--it's too easy to fold it up at the elbow.

Not a big fan of it. I suppose it has its uses, but I don't like it...

[old jong]

I think it had it's biggest use in the seventies point sparring karate era!...A flicky jumping backfist to the top of the head and you won! :rolleyes: ;) Ah memories! ;)

[Water Dragon]

I've personally never been in a situation where a jab was not a better choice than a back fist.

[Vash]

I like the basic backfist from Isshinryu in place of going from side to side with it. I don't like closed-fist strikes to the head, so this helps out just fine.

[Oso]

what about striking to cheek bone just below the eye or the eyebridge? These would cause the eye to shut wouldn't they?
If you were bareknuckle you could also open a cut in either place which would further hinder vision.

I think the difference is that the backfist will stop forward movement if they react to it but not if they don't.

i just use it as the start of a series.

to further describe my initial comment:

if I back fist to the head with my lead hand and they block with the same hand then that gives me the opportunity to stick to that wrist and trap the arm allowing me the opportunity to enter on that side with less resistance.

a back fist with a full boxing glove would be pretty much useless.

[Judge Pen]

I use a backfist from time to time. They work well in combos and will use them to set up a mid level kick or a sweep.

As for the snappy back-fists in point sparring; it's nothing a good side-kick won't cure! :D

[SevenStar]

I don't use it. I prefer the jab.

[backbreaker]

Someone I knew told me at a tae kwon do school that used to be here , their friend got hit pretty bad by a spinning backfist and quit the school. In muay thai they do spinning back elbows

[IronFist]

I wasn't talking about spinning backfists. I forgot to mention that.

[yuanfen]

Old Jong sez:

!...A flicky jumping backfist to the top of the head and you won! Ah memories!
----------

Nasty Anderson!!
Where are they now.....

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I don't use it. I prefer the jab.

I love the jab, but the two techniques do not have to be mutually exclusive. I find that a backfist in conjuction with a side-step will set you up for a good leg-technique in a way that a jab can't. It's just a different tool to use.

[backbreaker]

I might use a backfist as a way to break the opponents structure using "peng" energy and spiraling

[rogue]

If someones guard is across their torso I'll use a left Isshinryu style backfist after slapping down their lead hand with my left. Sets up the middle level reverse punch with my right real nice.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by rogue
If someones guard is across their torso I'll use a left Isshinryu style backfist after slapping down their lead hand with my left. Sets up the middle level reverse punch with my right real nice.

Or a variation on this and Oso's technique: right lead backfist. stick to their wrist, trap and then bridge and trap with your left hand, pull down their guard while throwing a straight right to their head and quickly followed by a crushing fist or a reverse punch to their body.

A "blitz" type sparring technique we drill is a front-sweep, spinning back-kick, back-fist, round-house. The front sweep and round house are right leg techniques and the spinning back kick and back fist are with the left.

[Brithlor]

My backfist isn't that much quicker than my (wing chun) straight punch so I would rarely ever use a backfist to the face... The spinning backfist has some uses though, but this thread excludes them.

I do use LOW vertical backfists to the groin, however...

[rogue]

Judge Pen, pulling the lead down is a little too commited, and the slap is real short. I used to pull down the lead arm (TKD technique) until my friend who is a Tai chi player would do mean things to me when I did that. After sparring with him long enough I switched to the short slap with a relaxed hand. It takes one of his hands out of play for a second and still leaves me two. He then did a variation which was to just relax his arm and drop it on mine and then hit with that same hand so he had no telegraph. I'm still trying to get his version.

[Merryprankster]

After sparring with him long enough I switched to the short slap with a relaxed hand. It takes one of his hands out of play for a second and still leaves me two. He then did a variation which was to just relax his arm and drop it on mine and then hit with that same hand so he had no telegraph. I'm still trying to get his version.

Go see a boxing trainer. Parry and come over top. It's classic.

[IronFist]

What's an Isshinryu style backfist? I should know. Isshinryu was my first style (altho that was back when I was like 8 so I don't remember very much).

[fa_jing]

Mine sucks, but a Wing Chun whipping punch (downward backfist) is a good punch.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by backbreaker
Someone I knew told me at a tae kwon do school that used to be here , their friend got hit pretty bad by a spinning backfist and quit the school. In muay thai they do spinning back elbows

that's a different technique. I do use those on occasion. also, I'll use a spinning bottom fist.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


I love the jab, but the two techniques do not have to be mutually exclusive. I find that a backfist in conjuction with a side-step will set you up for a good leg-technique in a way that a jab can't. It's just a different tool to use.

yeah, it's just a different tool. I can't get any serious power though. a jab is a probing technique generally, as you know, but there are those some odd guys that can get good power out of them - I'm one of them. Also, as it's illegal to use them in the ring, I've never really gotten in the habit of using them. When I was in longfist, I did use the spinning backfist though.

[rogue]

Go see a boxing trainer. Parry and come over top. It's classic. Working on a variation of that too, the one I described doing is before the other guy throws.

IronFist, don't know about in Vashs school but the Isshinryu backfist comes up the middle and is a whipping action into the nose. so it serves some of the same funtion as a jab. Some Isshinryu schools call the uppercut, second type of punch taught in Isshinryu, a backfist. The backfist I learned in TKD always came from the outside and was a temple strike.

[David Jamieson]

rogue-

the way i learned it in isshinryu was to snap and figure eight the back fist.

the preferred target was the bridge of the nose, but the back fist could also have benn changed to accomodate any angle and strike the head.

but, it was generally a head strike.

jeez, i haven't done the karate in a long time but every now and then i remember stuff from it.

cheers

[Merryprankster]

Working on a variation of that too, the one I described doing is before the other guy throws.

Ah. Gotcha!

Question--

Would this be very effective on a boxing style guard? I'm only asking because it seems to me you'd have to reach pretty high and pretty far to do something like this.

I can see it if the guard is lower and it's strictly a close in move...

Just curious--not arguing.

[Vash]

Originally posted by rogue
Working on a variation of that too, the one I described doing is before the other guy throws.

IronFist, don't know about in Vashs school but the Isshinryu backfist comes up the middle and is a whipping action into the nose. so it serves some of the same funtion as a jab. Some Isshinryu schools call the uppercut, second type of punch taught in Isshinryu, a backfist. The backfist I learned in TKD always came from the outside and was a temple strike.

What Rogue said. The arm motion is similar to an uppercut, but there is a "secondary" whipping motion which changes the strike.
Generally goes to the bridge of the nose.

There is another backfist in Isshinryu, similar to the one in Tae Kwon Do. Not really fond of it, though. Sooner just drop a Seiken oi Tsuki on a body than a sideways backfist.

[IronFist]

I'm trying to remember back to when I was a kid in Isshinryu Karate class. We did something like a backfist that was more forward like to go into the nose. I think maybe that's what you guys were talking about up there. Like ok, Bruce Lee does his backfist with his side facing you, and it like extends to his side. We did it with our fronts facing you, so it was like more forward. Is that what you guys mean?

[Oso]

It can also be used as an "excellent bait" to catch his elbow while he blocks it. It can be block easily and it's a good bait. What you real want is "his elbow".

that's what I was trying to get at.



what about 'side hammer'?

backfist type hinging but with the bottom of the fist?

[Oso]

agreed.


I feel the side hammer is stronger than a standard back fist mainly due to the decreased flexibility of the wrist from bottom to top. for some reason that I haven't figured out, the side hammer is slower than the back fist.

[Oso]

could be, indeed.

actually, I tend to use back fist a whole lot by waiting or forcing them into a rt lead while i'm in a right lead then faking a back fist towards their leading hand and sticking and following by jamming their arm against their body and using short quick sweeping leg attacks and pressing against their body with my arm or my body if I get that close in which my back fist hand usually will hook to the head and latch on and or cut through as I reap the leg a la osotogari/diagonal cut.

probably my #1 fav attack

but now everyone knows it so I will have to devise a newer secreter favorite attack:D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by rogue
Judge Pen, pulling the lead down is a little too commited, and the slap is real short. I used to pull down the lead arm (TKD technique) until my friend who is a Tai chi player would do mean things to me when I did that. After sparring with him long enough I switched to the short slap with a relaxed hand. It takes one of his hands out of play for a second and still leaves me two. He then did a variation which was to just relax his arm and drop it on mine and then hit with that same hand so he had no telegraph. I'm still trying to get his version.

I see your point. Maybe I hadn't fought anyone as skilled in tai chi as you. When I do, I'll learn my lesson, but this combo has worked well for me in the past. BTW, When I talk about pulling down their guard, I usually only need an inch or two for my lead hand tho slip through so it's a fairly quick combo and can be followed up with a left front thrust kick or a left front sweep.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso


that's what I was trying to get at.



what about 'side hammer'?

backfist type hinging but with the bottom of the fist?

That's what we referred to as a bottom fist.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vash


What Rogue said. The arm motion is similar to an uppercut, but there is a "secondary" whipping motion which changes the strike.
Generally goes to the bridge of the nose.

that strike is also seen in shotokan's heian yondan kata.

[Oso]

That's what we referred to as a bottom fist.

correct...'hammer' if done vertically

so you execute the bottom fist both horizontally and vertically?

when executed horzontally do you feel it's slower but stronger than a backfist?

[SevenStar]

yeah, I do.

[Genesis]

The spinning back fist is a really powerful move if used correctly.

For example, you throw a hard low kick that misses and you use the force to spin around and then strike with your back fist. It is used a lot in Muay Thai, and in MMA.

Shonie Carter uses it, he hit two on some guy in the ufc, the first one dazed him, and the second on later in the fight knocked him out.

[Oso]

wouldn't any spinning technique be considered 'Low %' ?

If the opponent is unaware enough (whatever the reason) for a spinning back fist to work aren't there plenty of other 'finishing'/KO attacks that would be safer?

[Vash]

Originally posted by sc_guy
Borrowing his force to "move in" or "spin around" are always safer than doing it all by yourself.

Indeed.

[rogue]

Maybe I hadn't fought anyone as skilled in tai chi as you. I'm as good at TC as a Century Bob or a SD guy.:p My sparring partner was the one good at TC and SC. His sensitivity to any grab or push on his arms was annoying.


Would this be very effective on a boxing style guard? I'm only asking because it seems to me you'd have to reach pretty high and pretty far to do something like this.
I can see it if the guard is lower and it's strictly a close in move...
Exactly right MP. Some TKD and krotty fighters like the cross arm guard at about nipple level to protect their torso, I'd guess a side effect of no head shots amongst other things. It also works on fighters who keep their lead hand at chest level and sticking out. Against a boxer, MT or any guard that the hand is closer to the body and more upright it won't work. It's really an offensive move against someone who is a counter fighter (TKD/American Karate variety) or someone who is hesitent.


the way i learned it in isshinryu was to snap and figure eight the back fist. KL, The snap is important, the figure 8 your remembering may be the block along with the backfist. Isshinryu really seems to like using one hand for both the block and initial strike.

[No_Know]

I think I do not use a backFist. Back hands perhaps. The added area of fingers I can vary the texture of the strike. A backFist I can change the heaviness but it seems somewhat inflexible (to making contact).

I have concern that I disable most to all use of my hand if I disrupt my nuckles by backhand or the bones of the back of my hand.


I No_Know

[anerlich]

One of my instructors used to regularly break eight untreated roof tiles with a backfist. He was also not awarded points for them in point karate tournaments ("no power") until he "accidentally" flattened a couple of opponents with them.

The "no power" criticism is unjustified, though he told me he'd still rather hit to do damage with a straight right or palm.

Spinnig backfists are often disallowed because they seem to be difficult to control and people seem to get injured. They might be an "inferior" technique, but if the guy outflanks you they might be the best option you have.

I remember an interschool points tournament we had once just for fun, we normally spar medium to full contact. Spinning backfists were against the rules, and my Sifu emphasised this point several times. One of my buds had his round, the guy moved just so, and WHAM, my bud threw a textbook spinning backfist and decked his opponent. There was a collective gasp from the audience. Immediate disqualification, though everyone saw the funny side to it, even the guy he hit.

[Chang Style Novice]

Anerlich

Well, the criticism isn't "no power" but "relatively less power than other options." However, depending on where you are relative to your target, it may also be your ONLY option, as you mention.

So, they have their place, just like anything else. I stand by my statement that ideally you should position yourself where your best tools will be most effective. Wow, look at me court controversy!:D

[Cheese Dog]

Don't use backfists much myself, except occasionally pretty much as Oso does. I have known a few guys that could get good power from them. I've seen a few people get knocked flat with a stepping/lunging backfist and one guy knocked out cold with a spinning backfist.

[Christopher M]

I think it's a fabulous angle to work, but I think there's alot of options coming out of that angle other than a literal backfist. You can work that same sort of angle with alot more 'stopping power' using either alot of structure (http://aikidocircle.optix.net/Images/Techniques/KokyuNage1RichardAndFrank.jpg) and/or with offbalance and manipulation (http://www.authenticbeladiri.com/images/s1-4_jpg.jpg).

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by rogue
I used to pull down the lead arm (TKD technique) until my friend who is a Tai chi player would do mean things to me when I did that.

Tai Chi!? The old man in the park art!?

Just kidding! :D I think I can picture what you're talking about; good stuff! Did you pick up any taiji methods formally from him (or someone else)?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
More importantly, I think, is the structure of the backfist. It doesn't actually stop anything. A jab will interrupt forward movement. A backfist will not--it's too easy to fold it up at the elbow.

Not a big fan of it. I suppose it has its uses, but I don't like it...

That's exactly what I was going to say. And that, while getting backfisted in the cheekbone (for example) isn't fun, it's also not all that serious. Getting jabbed in the nose takes more of a toll (even if the only consequence is a sneezing fit). :)

[yenhoi]

I was talking about using the backfist/backhand motion to defend against strikes. Like instead of just rolling your shoulder into/with his cross... alos throw the backfist into his bicep or floating rib or neck.. or catch his jab and throw your backfist into his incoming cross.. this gets my arm where it needs to be to wrench his forearm and pull him into another punch, wrench his elbow or bicep and take him to the ground, or wrench his neck into some sort of throw.

The backfist is all over the place 'round here.

A common bag/pad drill is jab-cross-hook, backhand with rear hand while you step into the opposite lead (roll cross into backfist..) follow from the new lear with a cross hook cross or similar. The backfist is used to check or destroy or otherwise hold the line while the other big gun comes smashing through.

:confused:

[apoweyn]

Yeah, the backfist is good for initiating contact. That's true.

Besides, sometimes your hands just aren't where they need to be to throw a jab. Good to be able to throw something from that angle. And the backfist is pretty versatile.

But the lack of 'stop hit' in it does mean I don't use it as much as I used to.

[Oso]

soooo......

a lot of people use it while recognizing that it is a quick, low-power strike utilized to set up stronger follow up strikes...

...while some people don't like it at all because the jab fulfills the same spot in their toolbox.

[apoweyn]

I guess the jab fulfills the same spot in a general sense. But now that I'm thinking more about it, there are some specialized uses for the backfist.

I'm thinking of the gunting, in particular.

[backbreaker]

Cool story. I've heard stories before where a challenger knew he was defeated, and gave up before he was hurt.

[SifuAbel]

Low power?

ohhhhhhhhhhh.k.



:rolleyes:

[anton]

No CLF players to defend the mighty gwa choy? and been choy?

[IronFist]

Wow when I started this thread I just meant a regular backfist. Now I'm learning all kinds of stuff!

[rogue]

I'm thinking of the gunting, in particular. You're right, my old TKD Master will backfist your hands, arms and biceps as a lead in to a in close attack. Hurts like hell.

IronFist, that's the good part of this forum. There are some guys who really do know their stuff. :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
You're right, my old TKD Master will backfist your hands, arms and biceps as a lead in to a in close attack. Hurts like hell.

Nice!

[Chang Style Novice]

For those asserting the power behind the backfist, let me rephrase like this:

If you had just one shot at Clay Aiken's (or choose your villain here) snotbox, would you use your backfist, or some other strike?

[yenhoi]

Some other strike depending on where my hand was...

Like I said... I use the backfist on the other guys arms.

:p

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
For those asserting the power behind the backfist, let me rephrase like this:

If you had just one shot at Clay Aiken's (or choose your villain here) snotbox, would you use your backfist, or some other strike?

Yeah, but you wouldn't use a jab either!

[Mr Punch]

To the people who say it isn't powerful enough, maybe that's because you don't train it enough...? How often do you use it on your bag?

I don't train the horizontal backfist much, but I do try the relaxed 'controlled drop' of Lo Man Kam's wing chun (probably choy li fut influenced) vertical backfist. It's very nice! :eek:

I train by raising my arm slightly elbow-up, and turning it over , dropping the elbow into my centre line, whilst slightly extending the fist as it reaches its low point. My arms do not straighten, but keep a little slack at the elbow so as not to strain the elbow and to maintain versatility in event of wanting to change the strike.

I practise this as a big sweeping move, onto a table/sparring mitt, or a smaller less dramatic move onto a bag or sparring mitt.

Both moves are useful for breaking grips. The big one is good for stepping back at an angle, and simultaneously sweeping a backfist and a hammerfist at your target. It can contact with a face-raking action, or just to damage his arm. A good time to use it would be from a lap sau, or an attempt at an elbow control. Mine isn't bad, but my training partner's feels almost like good tai chi, when you hit at someone and suddenly there's nothing there and you fall into a little vacuum which just sucks you onto his blow whilst rendering you frighteningly off balance.

The small one is also good for grips, and wearing out guard arms/the sides of somebody's jaw ! :eek: :eek:

Both, being vertical, can actually offer quite a bit of protection going in, as the elbow goes first, sweeping aside, tying up or hopefully crushing the guard, kind of like riding a jab.

They can both also be good as a range finder and a set-up to a throw/takedown, cos it gives you a chance of a good flow from an outside overrarm position.

Just my tuppennyworth, but if you don't train it, it's gonna be no use to you.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
For those asserting the power behind the backfist, let me rephrase like this:

If you had just one shot at Clay Aiken's (or choose your villain here) snotbox, would you use your backfist, or some other strike? That's a silly argument.

It may have power to disrupt somebody's balance, to break down a guard, to crack a bloody walnut, but still be no good against 'Clay Aiken's snotbox'.

Different tools for different jobs. Different weapons for different targets.

[anton]

Mat has taken aim and sent the correct flying across the room with a single gwa choy.