Is this current era the gracies fault or the shamrock's fault

[backbreaker]

I've been thinking about how this mma thing came about and I've been thinking it's not at all the gracie's fault. First off Royce beat shamrock in UFC 1. The original show was style vs. style , a promotion for GJJ, and jason delucia is only one red sash so it doesn't bother me. UFC was almost banned for good. But then after many losses and the most boring time limit draws ever seen ( dan severn , oleg taktarov, etc.), Ken Shamrock stats pushing this sport ****, trying to lump jiu-jitsu , pankration , wrestling all together as "grappling" instead of associating jui-jitsu with martial arts like kungfu. Now it's too late and the world has changed and is out of control.

[Vash]

How long have you known you were a troll, and when did you decide tiw as safe to come out from under your bridge?

[Vash]

All in all, I've got about 10 years in the biz.

[Vash]

By the by, it might be helpful for your credibility, such as it is, if you filled out your profile.

In fact, if you check my profile, you'll see what you want to know about me.

[old jong]

Originally posted by backbreaker
Now it's too late and the world has changed and is out of control. I want a grappler to be killed by kungfu.

Why not report all grappling gymns and schools as Al Qaida training facilities?...Let Bush and his army take care of them!...:eek: ;)

[Merryprankster]

Who's responsible for this era?

So called "TMA experts" who claimed ridiculous, obnoxious, stupid things about their capabilities and styles, made fighting seem mystical and esoteric, and then who proceded to get a hideous beatdown from people who had never been taken seriously before.

The "TMA" would be taken a hell of a lot more seriously if there weren't such a plethora of idiots out there spouting nonsense about how they'll just drop into horse stance to counter a takedown, done deal, etc.

Yeah, I know.. that's not REAL TMA...

Which leads me into one of my KFM conundrums:

If 99% of CMA taught out there is crap, how is it that everybody here is in the other 1%?

[Vash]

If everyone just did karate, this wouldn't be a problem . . . ;)

[PHILBERT]

MP, because those people are simply in denial and will not see that grappling does work, just like TMA, under certain situations (I myself would not wanna grapple with broken glass around me if I could help it). They feel there beliefs are being destroyed.

Imagine proving to the Pope that God did not exist, imagine how someone who was that much into there religious beliefs was proven wrong, would they deny the proof? Or freak out and cry like a little pansy? Those who sit there and cry that grappling is only for the ring say that because they are simply denying it.

[David Jamieson]

my personal observation is that the whole major shake up in the martial arts world came with the Gracies.

They simply put out the all styles challenge and consistently met and bested all comers. Once they had become know, they started to get countered, eventually they were countered a lot and even beaten at their own game by those who trained to do it.

I think that in the martial arts as an industry there are all kinds of people with the best intentions who just happen to be either promoted in a very hyped way by someone else, or are ineffective communicators themselves or indeed have been fed an incorrect history and repeat these misconceptions again and again.

But, I would say that history, lineage, esoteric blah blah et al has little or no meaning for martial artists who learn martial arts to refine their actual fighting skills.

There is a niche in TMA that has become a port for all kinds of shenanigans, that's for sure. It's easy to hide your inability in a crowd of people who are looking for magic and have thereby blinded themselves before they even came to you.

It is these same people that refuse to look at martial arts for what they really are. MARTIAL. So many have come to sit back on the esoteric and paid little attention to the hard work and it really shows in how they fight in a contest.

It's hard to find the most balanced blend in martial art and esotericism which also helps teh person understand themselves, which is often part and parcel to this type of discipline.

And a lot of us tend to wear the rose tinted glasses when we look at an instructor, black belt, sifu etc etc. We are all human and we all have something to offer.

Merry- I think your just a bit jaded about it, but you know there are some for real kungfu guys out there in the world. The real good ones just aren't as accessible as we would like them to be and that's their choice to make. You can't force someone to teach you afterall, no matter how badly you want to know.

Just sayin. :)

cheers

[shaolin kungfu]

Sorry 'bout that.

[Vash]

I'd love to do some grappling. I've done a bit with some rather skillful BJJ peeps, actually.

But, with the existence of a rather bothersome back problem, I think I'm gonna be an armchair warrior in this ;)

[SifuAbel]

MA is not that big.

UFC isn't that well known either. The average person on "the street" couldn't tell bas ruten from sigfried and roy.

I blame karate.

I think merry is lost in the drama of the story.

[rogue]

The average person on "the street" couldn't tell bas ruten from sigfried and roy. I bet they could. Well it is easier now that one has a hole in his head and a big wound on his neck.

[SifuAbel]

They still might mistake him for sigfried.

[Chang Style Novice]

D@mnit, are they still prohibiting tigers from UFC?

I know tiger style is allowed, but I want real tigers!

[rogue]

Good point SA :)


MA is not that big. Something we do forget.

I'm a karateka but think the entire BJJ and MMA thing is great. The Gracies opened up a style of fighting that was alien to most of us. MMA is a wonderful way to see how certain things may work against another highly trained fighter. The great thing about MMA is that nothing in the rules say that you have to be a grappler or a striker. You choose your fight game and see how it does. When I first came to this forum the big topic was raising mantids, now it's how to counter this or that, the backfist, footwork and girlfriends who don't pay bills. That's progress in my book.

[SifuAbel]

I do think though that the whole thing has become a generalized drama. The "TMAs" is a huge group of people that vary from extreme suckage to 5 demon bag. To corral them all into a studio apartment and give then one name is counter intuitive.

The same goes for MMA. I seen pisant weaklings say "they do MMA so you better watch out" so many times its not even funny anymore.

[backbreaker]

The rear naked choke could be applied to an animal?

[cerebus]

Nah! You could never apply it on ME! :D :D
-The Animal

[Ralphie]

I reverted to kung fu the other night, and dropped in a horse stance... I was taken down and hit my head. BTW, I just was a tad slow in my sprawl, so I got caught in between, hence the horse stance (lowering my level and didn't get my hips back in time).
MMA is a good sports venue. Grappling of all kinds are usually good martial arts. Most grappling schools are like othe MA studios and don't stay open long. If there were a larger pool of Kung Fu schools willing to lay it on the line in a sports format, you would see Kung Fu guys beat MMA/Grapplers. A lot of times, mixed martial arts just means be good at one thing, and be able to defend various types of attacks. Look at crocop, he's got that viscious kick, and mainly trains to beat people that way. Many KF guys only think about themselves, and not their opponent because they never put themselves in position to be beat by their opponents (touch fighting). Good CMA has unfortunately been held close by and amongst other Chinese practitioners and circles. Those who have taken it outside those circles, except for some formats, have not done so in a way that translates well (they've adopted the Americanized Kratty Dojo method). Perhaps as San Shou develops, or a modified version that is more like vale tudo comes out, you will see KF guys start to kick ass. One of the core principles of CMA is flexability and adaptability. There is a current necessity for CMA to develop and expand venues for using KF in a realistic way, and not as an ego stroke.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
D@mnit, are they still prohibiting tigers from UFC?

Only fully resisting tigers.

[norther practitioner]

I don't usually get into these mma topics too much, but for almost precicely what Ralphie just posted.... I don't train for it, I usually spar to spar other strikers, and if we include some sort of anit grappling etc. it is very limited just because I really don't plan on fighting in a mixed ma atmosphere. I do practice throws (not enough) etc. I give it up for those who do all of this, and I think that as Sans Shou grows, you'll see more of these guys also include countering grappling in there training (I'm talking after the throw)... and hopefully this whole cma sux at mma thing will pass. But truth be told, I don't train for that type of thing, and I suspect that there are very few kung fu schools that do. To the ones that do, big up, to the ones that don't (including my own) don't fool yourselves into thinking you do.

[Ray Pina]

Fault? No, we should be thanking them ... call it BJJ, MMA, whatever. It has at least woken me up! I'm sure many others.

With that said, I have been focusing on combating grabblers now specifically for a few months:

Some things I have found in theory and practice:

1) if you know how to position your entire weight over your front leg and remain stable, it's difficult for a shooter to lift 200 lbs when down in that position.

2) In theory, the shooter is going for a Knight (leg in chess terminalogy) while presenting not his Queen, but his King (head).

3) Many of these grapplers play by funny rules: they can twist you and snap off a shoulder, but you can't rock then in the throat, coller bone or face when rolling.... many also want to start in the mount. Some will go so far as to start via the knees, but again, they are against striking.

My overall thought: Grappling is important to know as a fighter, at the very least to know how to deal with it in the case of falling ... who is assured there will never be a bannana peal underfoot?

After cafeful study, which contiues, I see it is the same as stand up fighting. Better not extend (I saw some footage someone posted recently: lots of over-extension by both parties but never capitalized on) and position is king.

In the end, MMA greatest contribution is not grappling, it's realism. Seeing someone get their arm torn off is very inspiring. It has brought the real back into MA, something it has lacked for a long time.

[CAMEL KILLER]

I am still amazed at alot of you TMA guys when talking about MMA. I myself am a freestyle and Greco roman wrestler with 27 years + experience and was a member of 2 Jr. National teams.

I boxed in the Army and trained in Muy Thai and BJj at Ricksons old acadamy on Pico. I consider myself a well rounded fighter and have a 9-3 fight record (King of the Kage, California pankration championships, Kage Kombat).

Sometimes I find myself getting real defensive when listening to some of you make statements like "I cannot be taken down" or "I don't need to know how to fight on the ground", or how some obscure MA teaches you grappling and or grappling defenses. Most of your statements are very misinformed or you are just very naieve.

I've trained with literaly hundreds of "active" fighters. i have also been fortunate enough to show a few Tradition martial artists (guys that have been training seriously for more than 10-15+ years) that alot of what they learned and trained would not actually work against a trained fighter. Most of them asked me to come in when they heard from parents of kids that I teach wrestling to that I was an active fighter.

From my experience this is what happend in most cases. i would show up after they held a class and introduce myself. We would be very corgial and talk for awhile, mainly about fighting and experience then other things non related. We would then discuss shortfalls of different arts including ours. Then we would swap advice and hit the mat to go through some demonstrations.

9 out of 10 times we would end up going over takedowns and takedown defense meaning I would spend the better part of my evenning showing the instructor takedowns and defense. At times I would have to show hium the effectivness of the takedown and have him try to hit me or stop me always to no avail.
What happens most of the time is that they cannot believe I had such an easy time with them. I would let them start in a full sprawl and still get the takedown pretty easily. Now, after all was said and done I would explain to them that I have Internation as well as National experience in wrestling so most guys they would roll with wouldn't be at the same level as I was but they usually got the point.

Only once or twice did I actually run into someone that was so blinded by the TMA's that they actually believed that I could not pull of what I was doing to them in a real fight although we were (they were definately but most of the time i was only 1/2 to 3/4) going full speed. I even let them use strikes to defend any way they could and I did not strike. But for some reason they still did not believe the advantages.

The best example was against a san Shou guy who wanted to try his throws against me (i was a 4 time California state Greco champion and 2 time national placer). I agreed and when we were done I ended up letting him work out with my wrestling team that I coached.

My post was not intended to bash Traditional martial arts. I could have easily stood with them and boxed most of their ears off but that wasn't the reason my my visiting them or vise versa. It was to prove that no esoteric or well known martial arts wrestling defense, takedown defense or takedowns will help you against a either a well trained wrestler or grappler that sole art is grappling.

[Ray Pina]

I can apreciate everything that you have written. However, do not think for a moment that there are not "Traditional Martial Artists" -- though I'm not sure I would classify myself as that -- that have not had the same experience with grapplers.

This is not to say that X style is better than Y style -- and I'm surprised someone of your admited calibre still fancies that. I would suggest that you are better trained and combat tried and tested then they were.

I know some kung fu guys that are quick to dismiss karate -- a style I have trained in for over 10 years as a kid and my intro into MA ... I beat them with a sidekick and reverse punch. That simple combo was backed up by 25 years of training, sparring, fighting (winning and losing) and the intention that goes with it.

No style is perfect.

[backbreaker]

Efist- I have not met a really good IMAist , muay thai fighter , or grappler who does not beleive their style is the best. All I ever hear is in hong kong way back whenever , all these kung fu guys all got knocked out by muay thai :p

[CAMEL KILLER]

Again, I didn't mean to make it a "this art is better than that art" but common sense says that if you want to learn to be proficiant at grappling then learn a grappling art. If you want to be proficiant at striking learn a striking art. I won't go to a Karate/Kung Fu dojo to learn to grapple and i won't look to my wrestling room to learn striking. Although some TMA's teach some grappling techniques i wouldn't pretend to think that that is all i need to learn in order to be proficiant against a grappler..

I would bet the farm that there is no art more proficiant at ground control and takedowns than wrestling. In saying that, I being a grappler (primarily) could not expect to step into a boxing ring and beat a trained boxer with a couple strikes I learned while wrestling.

[Ray Pina]

Actually, CAMEL, in that regard I'm with you 100%.

I got what I needed from Karate then moved on to "Kung Fu". Wing Chun taught me sticking and trapping, ect.

Now I've moved on to Internal. I've gotten my ground work from my present master. He's 63 and has been training since he was five so he's seen and studied a lot.

To be completely honest with you, I never believe when a kung fu guy talks of ground fighting. Though that video someone posted today din't loolk terrible. Some stuff looked good, some like it could be good but my fighting sense would be warry to try it. What it does show, and what strictly ground fighters SHOULD be thinking about, is that people know your stuff works and are busy trying to crack the case.


Backbreaker, as soon as you say "all I ever hear is that guys in hong kong say".... I've seen some of your posts. They stink of newbie who has seen some good stuff and has fallen in love with his chosen style so thinks everyone else sucks phase. Go out and play! Not with corner McDojo students. Go find a short, stubby Japanese guy who has studied Isshin-Ryu for 33 years and see what you can do? Go find a Chinese man who has studied Southern Mantis in NYC Chinatown since he was a gangster at 12 years old, has a scar on his face. See how well your shiny wall studii with padded mats technique fairs.

Talk is cheep. Working techniques on classmates that do the same thing as you is great training, but not combat. When you do go out, AND LOSE SOME FIGHTS, you'll respect everyone who fights -- regardless of style -- and has made it their life's intention of improving and learning.

Best in your training
Ray Pina

[canglong]

Evolutionfist,
In my opinion you make some good points the truth is the truth and that fact remains constant no matter how one discovers truth. Of course in most of the discussion on these pages discovery seems to be the main point of contention among varying minds. People seem to gravitate to boards like these to discuss technique and then others things I think the day that the readers and posters of thoughts on this and like boards is looking for is when we can all discuss concepts theory and principles the backbone of technique for they truly are our common ground regardless of style my hope is that day is coming sooner rather than later.

Good health to you now and always.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Talk is cheep. Working techniques on classmates that do the same thing as you is great training, but not combat. When you do go out, AND LOSE SOME FIGHTS, you'll respect everyone who fights -- regardless of style -- and has made it their life's intention of improving and learning.

Best in your training
Ray Pina


Excellent

[backbreaker]

Hey , I don't want to flame this thread. But....

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27147&pagenumber=1

Felipe , how's your internal problem. I hope one day your forum members can improve their internal problem

[Felipe Bido]

Then again...

I deleted the post I wrote, because I don't like to read adult people (as I suppose you are) whining and crying. It's a pitiful thing.


Buh'bye. Use PM's and toilet paper

[Ray Pina]

Backbreaker, every family has its inner squablings -- and members they're embarassed about. It means nothing more than a desire to raise the bar. So when someone says they study Hsing-I, Ba Gua or Taiji, it means something.

Hsing-I is already known as a no nonsense style. Ba Gua as a very intelleigent one. Taiji, Taiji needs some very heavy PR.

What is your intention here? Why not produce one, long winded flamming, trolling post: tell us how great your style is -- I'm guessing BJJ or some form of mixed Chinese boxing and throwing thing -- how you've never lost and how none of us -- who have lots more experince than you in both number of years training and styles -- don't know what we are talking about.

And please don't back up any of your comments. Just make blanket statements. This is the beauty of the internet. Get it all out of your system and join the rest of us adults in furthering martial arts. In the end, it may very well be combined anyway -- just like the human gene pool.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Why not produce one, long winded flamming, trolling post: tell us how great your style is --

WEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

[truewrestler]

I don't know what the h311 this thread is about but this might be the single funniest video I have ever seen:

http://www.rubytopaz.com/video/sparbig.mpg

[Felipe Bido]

HA!...nice clip:D

[backbreaker]

:D I only practice pure styles. Pure, real new frame chen taijiquan, pure real mauy thai , and pure real greek(?maybe actually japanese?) pankration. Also real wild goose qigong which is thousands of years old. I have done internal styles since I was 8 years old ( yang style , xingyi, bagua). I know of at least five people who have done kungfu for over 10 years who would not beat an mma fighter.I even know some who basically stuck around for 10 years and bought their rank.My rank in the style means something but others with the same rank bought it. I guess not everyone grasps the internal. I don't try to bad mouth other styles. I have made it a goal to fight in 2004( at least muay thai fights) I better get training hardcore all day long . I balance all aspects of internal and external in training. Decent rant?

[Ray Pina]

Actually, that was pretty good;) Good luck.

[CAMEL KILLER]

Pankration is Greek not Japanese and was started in Greece over 2000 years ago.

Definately NOT Japanese.

[Ralphie]

I don't know what the h311 this thread is about but this might be the single funniest video I have ever seen:

I don't know, that lady seemed pretty tough :D

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ralphie


I don't know, that lady seemed pretty tough :D
That was a lady????:eek:

[CAMEL KILLER]

That clip would be funny (I almost pi$$ed my pants) except fo rthe fact that there are people like him/her out there teaching that crap as self defense and passing it off as some unbeatable style. What happens when a student of his/hers goes out and gets into a fight in the street and instead of walking away from a situation decides to put their training into action and gets their head kicked in?

The people should be the ones accountable seeing as they are willing to take peoples money to teach them this BS and call it self defense or a fighting art..

[old jong]

That was not a lady!...http://www.rubytopaz.com/images/1crop.jpg

:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

Boy Georges training at Dairy Queen?... (http://www.rubytopaz.com/video/stickybig.mpg)

[Ralphie]

That was not a lady!...http://www.rubytopaz.com/images/1crop.jpg

serious lol @ that...Maybe it was the man boobs that threw me off.

[CAMEL KILLER]

I disagree. From the looks of that picture it may as well be a lady.:eek:

[old jong]

There's the name! (http://www.rubytopaz.com/images/markbram.gif) ... But,we can't be 100% sure of something anymore in that crasy world!...:rolleyes: ;)

[backbreaker]

I can't figure it out . I can only conclude that Felipe shares much in common with his fellow stylist Djimbe :confused:

[Felipe Bido]

Yeah, backbreaker, our names end with 'e'

:D why are you so sad, bitter, and whining that much, man?...go out there, get a girlfriend, live a life...enjoy, breathe...