View Full Version : But does it really work???

Dragon Spirit
09-12-2000, 01:43 AM
Yea ok, we have all heard about the story where the 4th degree black belt martial arts master engages in a battle with some totally untrained drunken bar brawler and he somehow manages to get his butt kicked in. "This has lead many people to remark, "That crap dosnt work in a real fight!"

So whats the deal, is all of our hard work for nothing, how is it possible our 4th degree black belt lost to some chump? Is all of our martial arts training totally useless for self defense and fighting???? Not really, actually here's the real reason why our master lost.

Being a skilful martial artist and a great fighter are two differnt things. Being a good martial artist means you learn all the moves, and all the philosophies of that style. You learm how<-- to deliver that powerful roundhouse kick but not when<-- or why<--. All three are important. Perhaps in addition, he failed to develope many important traits needed to be a skilled fighter, maybe he didnt spar enough (Which is not to say that the black belt wasnt a skillful martial artist.) The bottom line is this black belt trained to learn martial arts and self defense, but hes not the greatest of fighters because he left out things like, sparring, timeing and distanceing... all the strategies on what to do in a real fight, when to use them and the reasons why.

So heres my point, we all study the arts for our own reasons right, I personally study the arts because I love to fight... I love the moves and the movement, and the philosophies. My goal in martial arts is to become the greatest fighter I can possible be. But maybe ur different, maybe you just wanna learn self defense, maybe alls you wanna do is know that you have the ability to defend urself if you have to. So what I am saying is if ur goal is to become a great fighter, than train to become a great fighter. If ur training to mearly learn martial arts, dont be dissapointed if you lose an important match. Remember the differences between the two and be sure to stay focused on your goal, and in time whatever you want the arts to be, will be. (Thank you kent for teaching me all of this, very educational stuff) Good luck everybody with your training, keep up the good work!!

[This message has been edited by Dragon Spirit (edited 09-12-2000).]

09-12-2000, 02:12 AM
But a martial art must focus on actual combat in order to be a "martial" art.

If you don't train to fight, you aren't a martial artist. Martial artists train to fight.

And I still don't get the difference between self defense and fighting. Fighting doesn't have anyting to do with fairness, or a ring. In a fight, the intent, the primary goal if you will, is to injure another person or to keep that person from injuring you. Otherwise, it's a competition, not a fight.


MonkeySlap Too
09-12-2000, 02:30 AM
What JWT said. Right on.

Dragon Spirit
09-12-2000, 02:46 AM
I understand what u are saying, martial arts is fighting there one in the same of course thats obivious. But I beleive there is a fine line mentally, between practiceing to become a good martial artist, and practiceing to become a great fighter. Martial arts isnt just about hand to hand combat and fighting, it goes way beyond the physical and mental plain of existance. To me its more a spiritual journy of ones self then anything else. As Bruce Lee once said, he believes that the martial arts is all about expressing ones self which is why some people practice the arts, not just to beat people up and defend themselvs, but as a way of saying this is who i am, understand??? So what I believe, and correct me if I am wrong... that training to become a great martial artist isnt just about fighing or defending, but about expression, and if that is true then training to become a great FIGHTER, is mearly training to do well in combat. Martial arts is fighting, I am not saying training to become a great martial artist dosnt involve any fighting or self defense that would be foolish, hell thats mostly what its all about. But what I am saying is training to become a great fighter and training to become a skilful martial artist are possibly to different goals for a certain individual, and may be a good reason for why some of our kung fu guys of high ranks lose to punks like our bar brawler. How does that sound???

[This message has been edited by Dragon Spirit (edited 09-12-2000).]

09-12-2000, 07:36 AM
Well said spirit,that puts into words something that I was unable to .Well said

09-12-2000, 10:10 AM
ameen dragonspirit!

the truth is the martial artist is not training to fight he is training to demonstrate his art. if this is not true, then how much percentage of a black belters test is sparring and how much is demo form, demo weapons, demo breaking, answer philosophy or history wuestions, do this technique do that. how many times did he go full contact with his classmate. to separate competition fighting from "real" fighting is stupid, what is "real" fighting that you do other that "spar" or "competition"? do you go the sidewalk and bash each other heads in? because if you dont you are not doing real fighting either! the more kinds of fighting you do as a martial artist the better, not adding grappling or adding this or that. even the grappler master his fighting before he cross train, and even if he does, when he is serious in a fight what does he go back to? grappling which he is an expert in.

most martial artist, especially the new "modern/streetfighting/cross training" martial artist does not know anything good enough to kick anybody ass who is not in a wheelchair. because he is just collecting technique and spending his money on tapes seminars and pay per view. instead of going out and testin himself he is talking about what style is better, why martial arts (that he quit 10 years ago as a beginner) does not work.

twenty or more years ago people respect the martial artist because he can kick ass. the schools are smaller then, the path takes longer, and he is tough. today there is to much ideas in the martial arts, concepts, new trends, stuff like that. and to many people in the schools. that is why people suck. before you have to ask to join, today you "sign up", the schools ask YOU. people quit when classes are hard now. they are more into form or collecting information now than fighting or perfecting what it is they are learning. why? because it is big business now, and 75% of the people are following the ideas of a actor because everybody is so convince he was a great fighter yet nobody has seen him fight.

okay i am talking to much i gotta go.

09-12-2000, 10:05 PM
yea youre right man,Im sure that Sakuraba,Ken shamrock,and Bas Rutin,all cross trained martial artists,cant fight in real life.Silly me,I actually thought those guys were dangerous.

09-12-2000, 10:23 PM
All martial arts can do is make you a better fighter than you were before. And a black belt usually just represents black belt knowledge, not necessarily the ability to apply that knowledge successfully. I've known black belts I could easily beat, and others that could easily beat me (I'm nowhere near black in anything).

Also, in a real fight, there are so many different variables that the fight can easily turn tables in the blink of an eye. A lucky sucker punch or whatever, the MA may not even be able to use 90% of his skills. I mean, if Michael Jordan just happened to be standing under the hoop eating a sandwich not even "playing," I could score an easy lay-up on him if I came out of nowhere!

09-13-2000, 01:12 AM
jimmy23 i am talking about the martial artist who does not go out and FIGHT. just learning differents kinds of techniques wont do it. buying videos grappling wont do it. i am talking about all this talk and no DOING. most of these guys talk and thats it.

of course a guys who trains in cat-dog style will be okay if he is fighting. but at the same time if he does not train and get enough experience it will not help him at all.

back to the first topic i believe to many martial artists spend all there time learning this and that and no time doing it. that is why he says they are not learning to fight. like these styles with over 500 techniques. there is no room for develping a skill in one way of fighting. martial artists (many of them) want to spend all there time learning all 500 and are not interested to train the few they can count on for a real fight

Dragon Spirit
09-13-2000, 04:30 AM
My fellow martial artist's ask yourself this. What do you want from the arts? Why do you train, what is the real reason you like martial arts... whats the point!?!?! As I have already said, to me martial arts has been created for self defense and expression... it shows who you are, its purpose is also to help explore and discover ones self. It teaches discipline and helps to build character, it gives you the willpower and confidence you need to handle any situation. It makes me happy and it feels like a part of me!!

You see this is the thing, martial arts means so many differnt things to so many different people which is why its so great. To some its just a way of fighting and kickin peoples ass, to others its a form of expression, and then there are some people who just use it to find out who they truly are though there training. And that is why I have decided, that being a skilfull martial artist and a great FIGHTER are different. To answer the main question of my post, does martial arts really work, the answer is yes! Through hard training you can truly become a great fighter, understand that the arts can in no way offer perfection and can never guarentee victory but thats just the risk we must all be willing to take! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-The Dragon-

Rolling Elbow
09-15-2000, 11:33 PM
Guys, this is a really good topic.

The important thing to know about the MA is that it can only make you a better fighter than you were..Unless you live and train it hard and everyday, it is highly unlikely that you will ever attaing the skill level and experience of someone who has made it their life for over 20 years.

Because many of us don't have the time or have not been practicing for as long as others, it is important to know that physical and mental abilities as well as the ability to adapt to diff. situations is what distinguishes every single martial artist...even those that hold the same rank. % black belts are all black belts.., one will be more effective than the rest...why? Because training and the MA means that you have to work with your own physical limitations and assets. You have to do the learning...and YOU have to apply what you've learned by making the proper decision in a stressful situation..

I've often thought.., why keep training? It seems like I still have no chance when I wrestle my brother or he attacks me with jabs and crosses..., but then I think. Each time he has done this, he has been a bit surprised by some of the shots I've thrown in and I too have been surprised at how much more I was able to see and feel through sensitivity and his attacks. Might I still get killed? perhaps, depending on the opponent...but is there any question that I am better off with some training? DEFINITELY! With year after year of training, it is only logical that one will feel more comfortable with contact,pain, and his own movement. This with time, will increase your effectiveness on the street. There will likely be tough *******s that will take you to town...but a realistic goal for all MA is this:

It is alright never to win, but always shoot not to be completely defeated...If you can walk away from a fight and have minimized or nutralized the effects of an attack, you are doing what the art intended..., you survived. Remember, on the battle field, it is very rare that a man goes without a scratch. Forget the daydreams.., concentrate on movement and the reality of being hit. Minimize the damage the hit can cause and learn to control your mind. If your mind is defeating you, everything you do will break down as a consequence. The instinct and the skill need to be one and one the same: /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif not /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif in a fight.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

09-16-2000, 05:14 AM
great reply RE

09-16-2000, 01:16 PM
Sakuraba? Bas Rutten? Dangerous?
Depends on the situation...

Put me in the ring with them, and yes, they will probably mop the floor with me. I have no interest in going to jail; the techniques in which I train--eye gouges, tendon separations, joint breaks--will land me there, despite the supposed "no rules" environment of the "reality" contests.
On the other hand, let's put our NHB players in a answering a domestic dispute. Hubby gets overwrought, and just as Mr. Rutten gets him down in a really GOOD mount, wifey sticks him in the back with the carving knife she just brought out of the kitchen.

Whatever else they have evolved into, and whatever else you or I get out of them, the martial arts--and I mean the REAL martial arts, not the sports like TKD or BJJ--were designed to incapacitate an attacker quickly, so that you were distracted for the minimum time in mass combat. At one time, these practices were state secrets; state of the art national defense.

It sometimes makes me sad to people jumping up and down in their colored belts and pajamas and being told by their instructors that they are learning the ways of ancient warriors (when they are really just learning to play "tag" and "uncle"); but then, I feel that there are WORSE things that they could be doing with their time.

Jason C. Diederich
Pax Nobiscum

09-17-2000, 04:26 AM
very good point.However,I think a lot of what keeps a cop alive has more to do with "street smarts"(please dont ask me to give a good definition of that!).For example,Im sure that you wouldnt just gouge hubbies eyes or cave his knee in.It seems tactics (where youre partner is and what he does,seperating the spouses,,stalling till backup arrives).To me this is more a matter of battle tactics,like the ones a good bouncing crew uses /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .A right cross to the chops may incapacitate hubby just as fast as a death blow(notice I sat MAY),but in my experience the smarts to keep from that situation are what seperates RL combat professionals from others.You make a good point though,Im not disagreeing,just trying to examine it a little closer.

09-22-2000, 09:52 PM
Theres always someone better.
That drunk guy in the bar probably knows something but wont say, Making a fool out of the skilled Martial artist. Through in a little bad luck and there you have it.

Ever heard of the phrase happens. We'll call it a fluke. Out of 1,000,000 trained martial artist. 1,000 of them get there @sses kicked.
Thats not bad odds.
The media is so surprised that a martial artist lost, they over broadcast it, making that black belt seem worthless.

"Don't always look with your eyes"
you have 6 senses, try using more than just one..............

god bless

uchi mata
09-27-2000, 01:03 PM
Bjj is a sport?Who told you that?There is a sport venue in wich bjj is competitvely practiced.Have you ever been to a real bjj school?Let me break it down for you, there is training with a kimono for sport snd their is no kimono vale tudo training.Vale tudo means anything goes in portuguese.Try the no kimono training before you say its a sport.I could care less if bjj is considered a real martial art.As far as the so called nhb comment is concerned, if you need to bite or poke someones eyes out to win a fight then i guess you shouldn't enter a nhb tournament.I think you can learn those techniques in a rape prevention class.So why are you in martial arts in the first place.Anyone who has ever stepped into a ring or cage is light years ahead of any speculating armchair yoda who thinks that their techniques are too deadly for so called nhb.

09-27-2000, 05:30 PM
The main reason why most martial artists lose fights is simply because they are'nt MARTIAL artists.
Martial = Warlike.

OVERPRACTICING kata, refusing to spar in a realistic manner, not pushing yourself during training, going for the fancy rather than the pragmatic.
This is the main reason why most "martial" artists can't fight for nuts nowadays. They are'nt martial artists anymore, they are just artists.
It's not an issue of traditional vs NHB style training. Both have their good points. But one should remember how warriors of the past trained. It was always with a martial intent, whether they were practicing shuto against bamboo trees, striking rocks with fingers, looking for fights, anything to prepare them(both mentally and physically) for the horrors of war

09-28-2000, 12:56 AM
If the bjj competition goes until someone taps out then it's a sport. When people start killing each other we can reconsider its classification.

uchi mata
09-28-2000, 03:41 AM
You have a valid point.Answer me this, what "martial art" actually follows through with killing eachother.?Sport bjj is what it is, a sport.Those sport techniques are the nearly identical (but with a different gameplan)to what I would use in the street.I guess by your definition all martial arts are sports.I wouldn't judge a style by whether the praticioners kill each other or not but I respect the term "to each his own".

09-28-2000, 08:49 AM
I've never understood why there is so much rivalry between traditionalists and NHBers.
To everything there is some truth and some bull****.

To say that arts like BJJ are ineffective as they are sports is a lame argument. Of course they don't kill each other, why, do you kill your sparring partners in Kenpo? You don't, so it is a sport too I guess.

To say something like Kenpo is totally useless as they don't train fullcontact also does'nt hold up.
You can't train eyegouges and lethal techniques full contact. Does'nt mean you should not train in them at all though.

Most martial artists seem to take just one side. But imagine a fighter who is trained under fullcontact NHB fighting but also keeps an open mind to using eyegouges and other "lethal" techniques. IMO he'd be the best fighter of all.

09-29-2000, 01:03 AM
Just about every system and style claim that they are not a sport, but an MA. If it's a competative activity then that falls under the guidlines of a sport, but now we're playing with semantics...and shouldn't waste too much time trying to figure out the nitty gritty definitions of words. I've never claimed that kenpo wasn't a sport while everything else is...on the contrary, I wouild argue that Kenpo becomes a sport as soon as the practitioners compete with each other. Also keep in mind that I have said nothing negative about anything being a 'sport'...I personally have more respect for the sport of boxing than most of the MA out there.