ATTN MS Too

[Merryprankster]

MS,

You mentioned that you took Judo prior to SC. Could you please discuss the similarities and differences?

Thanks in advance.

James

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey MP - Somewhere, years ago, I think I went through this on KFO. I apologize for being brief - but it's Saturday night and I'm stuck writing ad copy - F@CK!

Judo has only the 'safe' (HAH!) throws in it's curriculum. This made sense for it's propogation, but in my opinion leaves some 'gaps' in the body knowledge of Judo -only guys.

Shuaio Chiao has no ne-waza or matwork. There are ground controls, and seizing breaks after a throw, but nothing you'd recognize as 'rolling.'

Judo bases it's training on the ai priori assumptions of Kuzushi and 'minimum effort, maximum result.' From these two ideas the entire 'flavor' of Judo is created.

Shuai Chiao is more similar to Sumo (minus the chub) throwing techniques. Shuai Chiao will tie you up into positions that are not safe to fall from, then blast you. They'll collide or tear you off your base in addition to 'leading' or Kuzushi concepted throws. There is a much greater emphasis on the control that allows a throw to happen. In this sense, we share some kinship with Greco-Roman.

Shuai Chiao players don't like sacrifice throws - Judo is chok full of them.

The Combat Shuai Chiao clubs (I won't speak for any others) emphasize full contact fighting - the stand-up free-wrestling practice exists simply to develop body knowledge or 'shuai fa' for the full contact fighting. In ACSCA rules, groundfighting is now allowed, but you have 10 seconds to apply a submission, or a third party jumps in the ring and starts beating on both contesants.

Judo relies much more on Jacket skills than Shuai Chiao.

Judo, while very good, does not translate as well into full contact fighting. My opinion, based on what the different parties are training for.

When you are thrown by a Judo guy, you know you are going. With Shuai chiao throws, it can much more sudden.

Shuai Chiao has retained it's 'street fighting' techniques, whereas Judo has been sanitized for public consumption. (This does not mean Judo can't be wicked in the street.)

Judo benefits from a broad, open-access training environment. You can find six hour long tapes of top Judo guys just detailing uchi-mata and nothing else. The Shuai Chiao world is infected sometimes by the CMA penchant for secrecy. This is not so in the ACSCA, but I've seen other Shuai Chiao groups act this way. My rule of thumb, is that the more often someone calls themsellves 'deadly' or the inheritor of 'special treasures' the less they know. (This does not mean that Shuai Chiao does not have unique, and therefore 'special' training methodologies - it does.)

Shuai Chiao takes extreme training to, well an extreme. There is a much richer vein of ancillary training available in the Shuai Chiao world. Some really neat stuff.

There are less limitations in Shuai Chiao training.

These are just my top line thoughts...there are more details to the variances - from footwork to gripping etc, etc...

My attitude is that a good Judo school is better than most so-called CMA schools I see. When 7* wanted to learn Shuai Chiao - I asked him what schools were around him - and the best pick was a Judo school, as in my opinion the CMA was lacking. My view may be controversial in this, as I find Shuai Chiao to be a superior art in the areas I am interested in, but I do not feel bound by cultural barriers when reviewing material or a course of study. To me, getting some Shuai Fa in your body is worthwhile, and you need to learn from the best of what is available to you.

[Merryprankster]

Thank you very much for your response!

I too got a good giggle about the "safe" throws, given that I dislocated my shoulder at the last tournament! :D

I think my experiences with Judo may be very different from both yours, and the norm. I am, of course, influenced by my own wrestling background, which has more of that aggressive, banging flavor you talk about, but also, I have had the difference of training frequently in the shadow of two top quality competitive Judoka. It's EXTREMELY aggressive and can only be described as violent. The versions of throws that I learn are sometimes significantly different than what I am shown when I go to another local Judo club to train--the way I do Ko Soto Gari, for example, is extremely different in execution and much more I don't know how else to say this, uglier, than the traditional timed advancing foot-sweep type version I was shown at a different club. It's not pretty but it works very well.

In fact, I'll never forget the story that Rhadi told once, right after he won a major tournament.

As he walked off the mat, some yahoo in the crowd said "Oh, he wins tournaments, but he has no JUDO...."

I'm not suggesting in any way that SC and Judo are the same, just that I think my training experiences are probably more towards the bang away side of things.

[MonkeySlap Too]

More alike in some ways than different. Back in Chicago we had these guys, the Cohen brothers, they knew how to really train the throws - the 'classical' Judo curriculum is a little off in my opinion - the SC way is a little more 'honest.' The Cohen bros had a killer O-soto - Tai Otoshi variation that became my mainstay for most of my time in Judo. Very ugly, but very good. We compressed rather than lifted on the O-Soto. Brutal, just brutal.

Yeah, my first Judo coach wasn't so good, my second one, who years later became my Shuai Chiao training partner had a Judo flavor more like you describe. He threw me so hard once, I literally did not know where I was...

I've heard that 'no Judo' crack too - :rolleyes:

You ever get out West, you are always welcome to come play with my work out group - we've got all sorts training together. Just be nice to us old guys ;)