What do you all think of this empty flower cilp?

[Royal Dragon]

http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/tj_day_03.wmv

[EDIT] I'd like to add that I have no idea who these two individuals are, what school they are form, or anything, I'm looking strictly for technical opinions of the techniques being shown, especially if you BJJ guys feel they could be applied against the shoot.

[count]

I think Master Su Dong Cheng is an excellent showman.;)
Very practical techniques too.:p

Not sure Matt's shoot was to swift, but than it's just a demonstration. I was there BTW.:cool:

[Royal Dragon]

Cool!! I actually watched all the clips in this group, and got some good insite. My harddrive is starting to fill up with Empty flower clips now, I'm gonna have to burn them all into a CD soon to clear room.

[Merryprankster]

As it was just a demonstration, it's hard to say.

However, the position of the shooter was less than optimal. I'm not just talking about a wrestling style shot, either. A Morote Gari (sort of a half shot) still puts the center of gravity in a better position than that for recovery purposes (ie, you fail and need to attack again). Look how far the shooter is leaning forward. He can barely help falling over.

Could they work? I suppose. I'd prefer the knee counter he showed if there were more emphasis on making sure you clear the leg (either through moving the leg or ensuring the grip is broken) first.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sc_guy

"Shooting" at person's legs really is not the best technique.
I know the "shooter" would disagree with me on this. To the "modern shooter", they believe this is their "short cut" because most people did not train for "counter shooting" and that give them some advantage.

That's not it. shooting is just a viable option. And, it works. grapplers have several takedowns, not just shots, but shot is just as viable as any other. Also, you don't have to go to the ground after doing it. you can just dump them and keep going. I don't think it's so much as "people don't train for shots" but more that they haven't been training for grappling. Many styles have throws in their forms, but not all schools practice them as religiously as a grappler does. Think of is as hacking - a hacker scans for open ports, and once he's in, he searches for holes in the system that he can exploit. Some systems' lack of grappling is just a hole to be exploited.

After everybody add their "counter shooting" into their daily drills then the way their thinking may change.

they just find another hole to exploit. That said, they will continue to use the shot as they see fit, as there are always opportunity, and not every counter will be effective every time.

Will it be better to get the joint lock while standing and then go down to the ground and finish it. At least you will have a earlier start. Going down to the ground then looking for joint lock will be risky. How do you know that your "grappler" technique is better then his? You don't want to go down and then find it out. It may be too late by then and no way to escape. Keep body mobility will be much safter approach in general.

How about a different perspective... What if you are getting overwhelmed by strikes? If that's the case, and you are confident in your grappling, shoot in on him - make him play your game. Also, as stated, they can throw/takedown without going to the ground.

[David Jamieson]

Not everyone shoots that low atthe onset. At least not anyone that is pretty good at it. :D

Shoulder into the gut or chest and as you get the motion going up and backwards on your opponent you wrap and pull the legs so he falls on his back.

I agree with merry, the guy (who is shooting the legs) is leaning to far forward to have any effect. I mean come on, he's looking at the guys feet! LOL

He should be coming in at same level and dropping in at arms length to pass.

The counters are alright though. I would be curious to see them in action against a trained shooter at full speed. That would be cool. I always like seeing kungfu done at full speed for these types of demos.

cheers

[count]

I'm surprised Matt hasn't spotted this and replied yet. :D

They wrote a book in Japan about the top 10 underground fighters of all time. I heard they added an 11th chapter for Master Su as he had beaten at least 5 of them. I'm quite sure his techniques are effective in real time. What you see on that clip is about half of what is happening. It's the other half you gotta fear. :eek:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sc_guy
I was assuming the following definition:

grappling - ground fight, you pull him down with you body weiight.

yeah, I was using a different definition. To me, grappling encompasses all grappling - standing throws/locks, the clinch and ground work. As we do all of it in judo and bjj, I lump it all into the definition of grappling.

Some grapplers are good at all the above but just like to finish the fight on the ground because today, most people are not used to this kind of fighting method yet (soon or later people will get used to it though).

That day is here. That's what caused MMA to evolve. Not everybody has made that step though...

In SC, there are a lots of low legs attacks but was done differently. You will push up both of his elbows first and then move in while his arms are no threaten to your entering.

We also do it that way. However, you will see some people rush in without regard to the arms. The assumption there is that he can get you before you do any major damage to him, which may or may not be true.

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I would like to see those counter tried at speed, with a good BJJ styleists doing the shooting. I wonder what the outcome would be?

[Unmatchable]

The neck twist is a good move that might work from a gullitone but could hurt someone bad so I would never use it. The rest is pretty crappy. I mean you could tell that by the time he moved out of the way the shoot already reached him, not to mention that he lamost fell over his own feet few times.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Personally, I would like to see those counter tried at speed, with a good BJJ styleists doing the shooting. I wonder what the outcome would be?

If you're going for the ideal, replace "good BJJ stylist" with "good wrestler". If you're gonna counter a good shot, might as well go for the people who are best at shooting.

[Unmatchable]

Check out the little dance they do at the beginning of the tape. You know, in the Street, everyone will help you get in a few practice steps like that so your timing will be corrrect. I also love how the grappler hits the guy and then loses all momentum.

[taijiquan_student]

Dude, the dancing thing was a joke...

[Unmatchable]

Ok now I understand. Peace.

[backbreaker]

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1

I thought the Matt Thorton challenge vs Djimbe was hilarious


Also on the second page...ALL YOU XINGYI GUYS TAKE A LONG HARD LOOK AT THE WRESTLER VS KUNGFU UFC MATCH

[backbreaker]

Awesome takedown on a kungfu guy video in the style vs. style-



http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&s_op=viewdownload&cid=1&min=10&orderby=titleA&show=10http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?s=57daOfedfOc383303deee1370ca8138a&name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1&min=10&orderby=titleA&show=10

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by sc_guy

The shooting that go directly to the legs without knocking on his door (his hands) will be risky. In SC, there are a lots of low legs attacks but was done differently. You will push up both of his elbows first and then move in while his arms are no threaten to your entering. The low legs attack is designed for a shorter person to attack a much taller person and may not work properly the other way around.

There are much safer "entering" techniques then just go for the legs (you have to worry about his punches, elbowing, kneeing, kicking, reverse head locking, and downward pulling). Both "side door entering" or "front door entering" are all safer than the "low leg garbbing". You may still have to worry about his punches but at least you don't have to worry about his kicks or kneeing. You have already reduce your risk in less than half. You can control his elbow joint, neck joint, or his shoulder joint during your "entering". You then take him to the ground. Since you have a better control on him, you don't have to start from ground zero the moment that you touch the ground.


This is already being seen in the MMA venue. The 'Sprawl and Brawl' guys have already cut down the percentage of pure shots being attempted. The standard now is for a fighter to punch his way in before initiating the takedown.

[David Jamieson]

I would also say that Kungfu done well will work in any range.

Many styles encourage closing and getting past and into the gates of the opponent. It isn't all "stand back and pull off fancy jet li moves" :D

btw and fwiw, i think the neck twist is very difficult to pull off in reality. people who are for real in teh fighting will rarely if ever get caught in such a compromising position. And then there is the resistance to having your neck cranked like that.

I'm not so certain that it would really work in a reality situation.

cheers

[norther practitioner]

Some need to realize this was a general demo (like you could do this if this happens) type thing. It wasn't them going at it... chaknow

[truewrestler]

I don't think much of the clip :)

[backbreaker]

Definately. People will need more inside fighting and different kinds of unexpected takedowns and throws in the future, as well as counters. In all the king of the cage's, ucc's , and ufc's I see their are fighters who rely almost exlusively on leg takedowns and groundfighting

IMO , ther are 2 aspects to throws-

- borrowing your opponents force( using following, connecting, sticking )

- internal energy( explosive power driving power through the legs and twisting the waist and having a losse and flexible waist. Otherwise you cannot move someone while in a clinch by twisting your waist and driving you legs, your throw will have no effect on your opponent and your opponent wont budge

[SifuAbel]

Hmm, as usual, some people on bullshido are dumb as stones.

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Hmm, as usual, some people on bullshido are dumb as stones. Please elaborate

[SifuAbel]

It would take too long.

[Chang Style Novice]

Anyway, how is "Some people on bullshido are dumb as stones" any different from here?

[SifuAbel]

there are less stones here.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by sc_guy
Is this much more logical and realistic way to solve the same problem? I just don't see much difference among Combat SC, MMA, and BJJ in the future if they all use the same concept and finally integrated into one.

I think this is more or less correct. Now that the arts are no longer 'secrets' the smart fighters will take any technique that gives them an edge over the other guy.

[ShaolinTiger00]

garbage.

effective to ridiculous ratio 1/10

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by backbreaker
Definately. People will need more inside fighting and different kinds of unexpected takedowns and throws in the future, as well as counters. In all the king of the cage's, ucc's , and ufc's I see their are fighters who rely almost exlusively on leg takedowns and groundfighting

IMO , ther are 2 aspects to throws-

- borrowing your opponents force( using following, connecting, sticking )

- internal energy( explosive power driving power through the legs and twisting the waist and having a losse and flexible waist. Otherwise you cannot move someone while in a clinch by twisting your waist and driving you legs, your throw will have no effect on your opponent and your opponent wont budge

there are three aspects to a throw, from a judo perspective: off balance (kazushi), fit in/entry (tskuri) and execution (kake). Moving someone isn't necessarily done via internal energy. It's done via off balancing. If I control your balance, I control where you go. If you are not off balanced, you will not budge.

borrowing energy is used in aiding the off balance. For example, if you are stepping forward, you are committing to a forward motion under the impression that your foot will land on the ground. If I sweep it out before it touches the ground, you fall. If you arepushing toward me and I assist that by pulling, you come forward more than you intended (kazushi). I then begin my entry - you are now off balanced and my body is controlling yours (tskuri). A movement of the hips, a turn of the head and boom, you're thrown (kake).

[lkfmdc]

Shooting is not effective in pure grappling because it is easy to sink your base and block the entry. By the same token, a fighter who keeps his base low and quickly seals his "leaks" and/or is waiting for the shoot to counter it will also be almost impossible to take down this way...

The "sprawl and brawl" type is exactly this, and as that became more popular in MMA, the shoot became less popular, you see more body clinching to take down now

That being said, shooting is effective against strikers/kickers who over extend, and/or do not effectively lower their dan tian/sink/base out... The guy who recklessly tries to take my head off with a lot of punches is easy to shoot in on.

If you limit your skills, you limit your options

[Merryprankster]

lkfmdc,

Your comments about the shot are wrong on several accounts.

Leg attacks are still the most successful category of takedowns in fokstyle, and american wrestlers EXCEL at leg attacks in freestyle wrestling.

Defending a good shot SOUNDS easy, but isn't. To quote a friend "Just because it's simple, doesn't mean it's easy." You are more or less correct in what you say about how to defend it, but that doesn't make it an easy to execute proposition.

Shooting has not become less popular in MMA competition. Shooting BLIND from halfway across the ring has become less popular (and rightly so). It's all in the set up. Pure wrestlers in a wrestling match almost never shoot blind unless they are desperate for points. You can see it coming from a mile away. Wrists are controlled, arms cleared, heads shucked, footwork used to lure the opponent one way or the other. A lot of body movement and effort goes into setting up the shot itself. A good setup really reduces your chances to counter---just like in striking.

Let me repeat that--it's all in the set up. More and more people are setting up their shots--perhaps with a strike or two or a head snap, but it is still being used to great effect. Sean Sherk, Sakuraba, Kevin Randleman and Matt Lindland all come immediately to mind. I believe Mat Hughs also uses leg attacks pretty often.

[lkfmdc]

Feel free to disagree with me :)

As you said, you almost never see a wrestler in a wrestling match shoot successfully from a disengaged position. The sort of position that matches with striking start from. As you yourself stated they usually start from some sort of tie up - as you said "Wrists are controlled, arms cleared, heads shucked"

In any sort of mixed environment, this is a place where you can also get HIT... This is why we see lots more "dirty boxing" and Greco-Roman type takedowns now in MMA

In MMA, you mentioned Sak, well, remember his shoot attempts vs Vanderlei Silva? How about Sherk vs Hughs? You still seldom see successful pure shoots vs guys with decent sprawl/wrestling in MMA anymore

As for shoot defenses, since we fight not only san shou but MMA I think I do have some idea how to defend shoots, but it could just be me :D

[Water Dragon]

I think we're starting to argue semantics mp. At least in my case, I consider a shot shooting from a distance outside of kicking and punching range. I've seen a lot of wrestlers do this. If they were good wrestlers or not, I couldnt say, but I can say shooting from a distance is common.

When you are referring to using hand fighting and grips to set up a single or double, I would say you are no longer shooting. You are now dropping from a clinch to a throw. If you still call that a shot, we're all arguing in favor of the same thing.

[backbreaker]

Cool , sevenstar. In my personal experiece , the internal energy was kind of like a new level I acheived. For a long time i used mainly body structere with a little bit of borrowing the opponents force to turn the opponent using different inside wrestling techniques with a lot of emphasis on shifting weight from leg to leg. Most of the time both people might spin aroun or end up on the ground even if it was a cool throw. I think the difference is between a merry go round or wheel, and a whip or chain. The hip movement and circular movement you describe sound to me like somewhere in between. Are you saying as they charge you would rotate and turn sideways shifting most of your weight to that side and maybe lean a little bit?

Perhaps what I think is similar to a baseball player hitting a ball? Of course a baseball is , small, round , and light, but you can sort of see that structure and rebounding the balls force is not enough, you will need loose relaxed hips and waist. So I currently hold that in a clinch ; shoulder to shoulder, if you have loose enough hips and waist , strong legs , and can "sink" , then all you need is to turn the waist and sink into the leags and you will internally borrow their force , and then ALSO return it to them. I use the internal energy to put the opponen off balance , and structure for technique. I know a fighter who hurt himself , ripping some muscles in his rib cage area trying to throw someone with too much effort

[ShaolinTiger00]

Hi guys. This seat taken?


Shooting is not effective in pure grappling because it is easy to sink your base and block the entry. By the same token, a fighter who keeps his base low and quickly seals his "leaks" and/or is waiting for the shoot to counter it will also be almost impossible to take down this way...

Way off bro. in fact the less striking that is allowed, the more likely the shoot will be effective. MP is 100% spot on with this. I understand your thought train (if the guys is crouched down he's harder to attack) but the reality is that when you're not just going to wait for him.. you're also trying to shoot. it's just a battle to see who gets it first. years of college wrestling have proven this to me.

& i think that many types of wrist control, 2 on 1, tie ups still allow the shoot. shoot - quick entry... "shoot vs. takedown" really isn't an argument.

the shoot became less popular,

No, it became smarter. When cross-training becomes better and the fear of getting punched/kicked hard become a legit proposition, you're opponent is going to have to raise his level higher to prepare for this situation.


That being said, shooting is effective against strikers/kickers who over extend, and/or do not effectively lower their dan tian/sink/base out... The guy who recklessly tries to take my head off with a lot of punches is easy to shoot in on.

correctamundo.

(stuff we know)

of course we all know that the standing clinch is an excellent place to control, but honestly it may be the hardest place to win. when grappling and striking are factors, your game plan may get easily changed.. when his defense isn't what you thought

It's much easier to gap free standing - groundfighting.. then free-clinch-ground..

[lkfmdc]

I don't know, it maybe is just me, I was just basing that on a couple of years on NCAA finals and the world free style wrestling championships :D

don't have a cow man!

[kungfu cowboy]

It seems that the position being argued is that wrestling/grappling are intrinsically superior to standup, and are more effective in use. It also seems that what is
being argued is that standup without grappling/groundwork is an unworkable situation, while the converse of having ground/grappling/wrestling/mime skills minus standup is not only fine, but almost preferred. True dat? Also, that crap in the clip sucked.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by backbreaker
Cool , sevenstar. In my personal experiece , the internal energy was kind of like a new level I acheived. For a long time i used mainly body structere with a little bit of borrowing the opponents force to turn the opponent using different inside wrestling techniques with a lot of emphasis on shifting weight from leg to leg. Most of the time both people might spin aroun or end up on the ground even if it was a cool throw.

How was your positioning?

I think the difference is between a merry go round or wheel, and a whip or chain. The hip movement and circular movement you describe sound to me like somewhere in between. Are you saying as they charge you would rotate and turn sideways shifting most of your weight to that side and maybe lean a little bit?

not for the throw I was talking about, but for a hip throw, yeah, you would do that.

I know a fighter who hurt himself , ripping some muscles in his rib cage area trying to throw someone with too much effort

yeah, that can happen. The ideal judo throw requires minimal effort. Seiryoku Zenyo - maximum efficiency - is what the art is based on.

[/b]

[backbreaker]

7star

How was my positioning when exactly? Usually I would want to grab the back of their head with both my hands my elbows in tight to their body pushing out a bit with my arms , and sticking my butt out to create space( I have done knee to the head, then mount). Different posistions of headlocks , bear hugs , underarm grabbing type stuff, I don't know

[ShaolinTiger00]

wrestling/grappling are intrinsically superior to standup, and are more effective in use.

Don't say the word superior it hurts peoples feelings..

effective? how about "practical" ? let's say that grappling is more practical. it has more uses in many situations. sometimes physical confrontation doesn't equal - snap a knee and break his nose. It may be "get this drunk rowdy out of my face" or "hold down this mentally unstabel person before he hurts someone of himself" etc..

in most situations you're not going to be standing 10 feet away waiting for someone to ring the bell so that two ready people can go to it.

reality says that usually one person instigates it and the other reacts. that puts one guy immediately on the offensive inititive. and chances are unless he opens up with a vebal barage that starts 10 seconds ago, he's already in your grill or you in his. maybe he came walking up to your back, maybe you have no idea that someone is mad at you.. (Ever dance with a girl at a club, only to have someone touch your back - her boyfriend? I hate that!)

now you've got to do something..

hopefully you'll de-escalate. good luck. verbal judo - ippon!

maybe not. you're now about a half second from something nasty.

will one strike stop him? doubtful. will a clinch allow you to get to a better position and avoid harm? yep.

I think because grappling's focus on positional domination = control allows it to be more applicable to everyday life..

not to mention breakfalls..

btw: for you steely-eyed mercs who say "my art is for life & death" - seriously? man if your hood or your enviornment is that bad. forget H2H, - CARRY A WEAPON and make it LEGAL.

I'm not knocking striking. i love it. but there are limits..

[Merryprankster]

WD,

Yup, people do shoot from far out, but they are usually setting it up with something. Most wrestlers--unless blindingly fast--can't shoot blind and expect it to work very often against people who know what's what.

When people do shoot from far away, they're usually using a sweep single or some other, similar type of movement. It's not that penetrative, off-balancing type of motion.