The Sort-of-Nifty Grip Fighting Thread

[CrippledAvenger]

Hey Shuai Chiao men, Judokas, and wrestlers---

I'm having some difficulty when I'm fighting for grips for my throws. Either I tend to telegraph what throw I'm going to use by straining for a specific grip or I play a primarily defensive game. I can't win based on pure strength because I'm the smaller wrestler, so what tips can I pick up to help me hide my intention AND still use the grip I want for my throws?

[Merryprankster]

What grip are you trying to get?

[Oso]

try distracting from the intended grip with something else.

I've been fooled a lot by a couple of judoka, there I am fighting off something then suddenly I can't breathe:)

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm gonna just lurk here since I have no real clue on grip stuff.

Sounds interesting, tho.

[SevenStar]

see if you can pull of the same technique with a different grip. Also, be sure to stay loose. Maybe find another technique that will set up and distract them for what you want to use. For example, I love to attack with hiza guruma and also with harai ghoshi. hiza guruma (knee wheel) pulls the opponent forward and usually leaves him with most of his weight on the leg that I am attacking. That sets right up for the harai goshi (sweeping hip). I can alter my lapel grip and go right into the technique.

As far as playing defensive goes, nothing wrong with that. If you can break one of his grips and then attack him, then for a brief second, you will have two hands on him, while he only has one on you - a disadvantage for him. attack him then.

Play with different grips and see which ones you are comfy with for that technique. A drill we do in judo is well, grip fighting (kumi kata) you fight for the grip you want, while disallowing your partner to establish his. After several minutes of that, we add the throws in.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
What grip are you trying to get?

Well, the grips that work best for me (so far) are the plumb, double underhooks, and sometimes collar-and-elbow. The plumb is my main grip so, I'm getting a bit predictable, I guess.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by SevenStar

As far as playing defensive goes, nothing wrong with that. If you can break one of his grips and then attack him, then for a brief second, you will have two hands on him, while he only has one on you - a disadvantage for him. attack him then.

Play with different grips and see which ones you are comfy with for that technique. A drill we do in judo is well, grip fighting (kumi kata) you fight for the grip you want, while disallowing your partner to establish his. After several minutes of that, we add the throws in.

Interesting. That sounds like a great drill.

[SevenStar]

can you do the same throw with only one hand on the crown of his head and the other on his elbow?

[Brad Souders]

drill, drill, spar, drill, drill, spar, etc, etc :D

[norther practitioner]

the plumb

This sounds dumb.. but which one is that?

[truewrestler]

CrippledAvenger, are you using the plumb clinch for striking purposes?

Regarding double underhooks... have you heard of the swim drill?

"This sounds dumb.. but which one is that?"

Both hands behind opponents head, elbows in chest... great for kneeing opponent

[ShaolinTiger00]

Both hands behind opponents head, elbows in chest

well put TW. Many people mistakenly refer to it as a neck clinch when in fact you want to cup your palms at the base of the skull and keep your elbows down.

This clinch is a great clinch for striking (practice your "pummeling" drill) but not that good for setting up throws,save a foot/knee block or a steering wheel..

transfer to a head/overhook and you'll see a difference in control.

[norther practitioner]

OK...

thanks...

I'm still learning all of these terms.

We've used that in transition to a throw in a few variations of a hip throw (my fav. where you get in behind the person).

plumb,

take left arm to underhook while stepping in with right and turn (with a leg hook, or a good turn that will produce the positioning of a leg hook)....

or something like that.

[ShaolinTiger00]

it's been my experience that an underhook (or two) work better for hip throws than do overhooks, because they give you the control that will help "lift" your opponent while you get under him.

[truewrestler]

well put TW. Many people mistakenly refer to it as a neck clinch when in fact you want to cup your palms at the base of the skull and keep your elbows down Yeah, I've seen it call the "Thai Neck Clinch" and different ways to do it. I generally like the locking of the hands (cup together, keep thumbs with fingers) versus interlocking fingers (i think Vanderlei does this) but haven't used it in striking or much in grappling so my opinion is worthless :p

by the way I searched for "plumb clinch" in google and got 1 pokemon page

is it plum, not plumb?

[Water Dragon]

It's 'prumb'

[truewrestler]

I'm not talking about the engrish translation :p

[CrippledAvenger]

WD-- You've got mail, bro.

ST00-- I like that grip for setting up a footsweep/reap combo because of the head control. It helps me get more of my opponent's weight on the leg I'm sweeping or reaping. That said, maybe there's a more optimal grip for that situation that I'm unaware of.

Perhaps some discussion on basic grips is in order? :o

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by SevenStar
can you do the same throw with only one hand on the crown of his head and the other on his elbow?

Hmm.. Not sure. If WD is willing, maybe I'll play around a bit with that later this week.

[Chang Style Novice]

Whoa, okay, I thought this thread was going to be all about how to hold on to a gi. I remember reading here or there or some other place about some ways of grabbing gis getting banned in Judo, because they were causing too many losses by Japanese fighters - I think it was turks or russians who had the banned grips.

Carry on.

[CrippledAvenger]

Chang, that'd be an interesting discussion. If anyone's interested in that, I'd whole-heartedly encourage them to share what they know in this thread.

The thing is, I've done most of my Shuai Chiao and freewrestling without the Shuai Chiao jacket, so I'm more concerned with jacketless grips. WD and I are going to start using jackets for a while I believe, so maybe after we work on some stuff I can post more authoratively on the subject (or he can fill you in, which in all honesty, is probably better).

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, I don't know nothin' about that because the uniform at TCP is baggy pants and a t-shirt. It just seems like you're better off grabbing arms hips heads and stuff when the top is that flimsy and there's no belt to yank on.

[ShaolinTiger00]

That said, maybe there's a more optimal grip for that situation that I'm unaware of.

I think so. It sounds like you've experienced success with this method and as they say "where the head goes the body follows" but no imagine if you could also control the same side shoulder as the leg you desire to reap. You'll get alot more off balancing, he'll have less ability to correct himself and since you have his arm, you know he's not punching you with it..

grips - doesn't always have to mean on a gi.. that said. grip fighting is a huge part of judo. you can't throw someone if you don't get your grip.

tournament rules for grips changed proportionately to how badly the Japanese were losing to the Russians who used many pickups and unorthodox grips...

[ShaolinTiger00]

basic grips (no gi)

collar & elbow

overhook & underhook (over under)

double underhooks

double overhooks

wrist control

double "neck" clinch

seatbelt

around the waist (modified dbl. underhook)

armdrag (2 on 1 - opposite hand controls wrist, same side hand controls inside of elbow)

[CrippledAvenger]

Okay, I think I know most of those.

Now, for example, to get the most off-balancing and least possibility of a counter on the footsweep/reap, would one go with an elbow and collar?

[ShaolinTiger00]

collar overhook.

pull as your outter leg steps parallel to his feet (or to the center of his balance) he should be bent to the side and backwards.

Reap :)

if the reap doesn't work. - don't give up. tai otoshi, harai, hiza or sasae, etc. or transfer the collar grip to an underhook and hip throw or uchi mata.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger


Hmm.. Not sure. If WD is willing, maybe I'll play around a bit with that later this week.

yeah, do some playing with it. My guess is that you're sweeping - I sweep from there also.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
collar overhook.

pull as your outter leg steps parallel to his feet (or to the center of his balance) he should be bent to the side and backwards.

Reap :)

if the reap doesn't work. - don't give up. tai otoshi, harai, hiza or sasae, etc. or transfer the collar grip to an underhook and hip throw or uchi mata.

Yeah, that's a great setup for a reap, but what about a footsweep? Leg attacks are where it's at for me, so would a collar and elbow grip work (or the variant that SevenStar brought up)?

I'm going to try them all out in freewrestling when I get a chance, but it'd be nice to know what works for some people. :D

Thanks for all the help on this thread so far, guys. It's been a good discussion.

[Water Dragon]

We'll work more on the grips, although I was planning on mixing in some glove work with the throws soon.

Anyhoo, remember that all the grips you know (minus the plumb), I taught you. Which means I know the grips better than you and I also know the counters better than you.

You'll have to wait until a new guy comes along to see where you're really at. That's just how it is with combat arts/sports.

[ShaolinTiger00]

collar & elbow or collar & overhook work well with deashi harai.

footsweeps are all about timing. the off balancing isn;t as much about pushing, pulling them as it is settting them up to step in a certain place at a certain time..

you may like this.

a guy at my club has a great set up for deashi harai.

He attempts O-soto and really comes at you, scaring the bejesus out of you and making you defensive.
maybe he'll try something completely different next.

he'll come at you again barelling like a small locomotive and you just know o-soto is coming so you brace against it. and just as you step in to counter and pull your leg back,

he sweeps your outside foot (****hest from him) with deashi harai.

[CrippledAvenger]

Oh, I know WD. Doesn't mean I don't want to get better at a weak area though. After all, there's san shou to fight and white belts to dust in Ohio this year. :D

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
collar & elbow or collar & overhook work well with deashi harai.

footsweeps are all about timing. the off balancing isn;t as much about pushing, pulling them as it is settting them up to step in a certain place at a certain time..

you may like this.

a guy at my club has a great set up for deashi harai.

He attempts O-soto and really comes at you, scaring the bejesus out of you and making you defensive.
maybe he'll try something completely different next.

he'll come at you again barelling like a small locomotive and you just know o-soto is coming so you brace against it. and just as you step in to counter and pull your leg back,

he sweeps your outside foot (****hest from him) with deashi harai.

Thanks Bro. My D. Cut WAS getting a little too predictable :cool:

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, you're gonna want to talk to Miguel about fighting in March.

[CrippledAvenger]

Thanks ST. Now I'm going to be eating mat for a good month or so. :D

Hmm.. as we say in Shuai Chiao, the counter to diagonal cut is diagonal cut, so why not go offensive against the O-soto Gari and reap him if he's using it as a setup?

[CrippledAvenger]

We'll see what shape I'm in for the Arnold's, financially and physically. I might not be able to spare much around that time so, we'll see. I'm definitely going to do the Shuai Chiao tourney in April though.

If I can't make the Arnold's I was hoping to take some time off and road trip it down to Austin for the Paul Lin seminar/tournament for the San Shou.

But we'll see. I've got a lot of time until March.

BTW, you going to Miguel's tomorrow? Is he doing the groundwork on Tuesdays or Thursdays?

[Water Dragon]

I wont be there manana, Espy has to work. I'll be there Thurs & Sun.

I also plan on lin=ving in San An by the time the tourney comes around, so I may be studying w/ Kirk by then. You and I will still be fighting under MonkleySlap's school though.

Not sure about the BJJ, I know he plans on starting soon though.

[ShaolinTiger00]

why not go offensive against the O-soto Gari and reap him if he's using it as a setup?

because my o-soto sucks. :)

I get him with my own methods. usually off a one-handed grip as he releases one hand to attempt to get a better grip.

O-soto can be used for several setups. just think forward/backward- meaning setup with a forward ashi waza throw (o-soto) and then hit them with a backwards ashi waza throw (sasae, hiza, deashi,)

[ShaolinTiger00]

O Soto Gari

to 1) Sasai Tsuri Komi Ashi (6)

When step back and straight arm

attack left

2) Hiza Garuma

or from O Uchi Gari (1)

3) O Soto Gari (1)

4) Seoi Nage (2)

5) H. Ko Soto Gari (6)

6) Harai Goshi (1&2&6)

With or without a step back

7) Uchi Mata (2&6)

8) Ni Dan Ko Soto Gari & Gake (2&4)

Done when uke defends by stepping back with left leg

9) Harai Tsuri Komi Ashi

10) Tomoe Nage

Straight or yoko - depending on uke

if you know judo termonology (http://www.geocities.com/vcujudo/daves_docs/RENRAKU.htm)

[CrippledAvenger]

Ah, thanks a million again, ST. Those look like hours of fun.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by sc_guy

Do you know how to use Baoding SC "tearing"? Grab on him with both hands (any place) and allow his to get a solid both hands grib on you (allow him to grab on you freely). Now "tear" one of his grib first and then "tear" the other girb. After you have one grib on him and he has no grib on you then start to run through his side door and behind him. He will try very hard to balance the situation and try to grab you. Block his grib inside out and then move in.

After you have "tear" him apart and you will find that he is getting nervous because you are trying to run behind of him and he does not like that. He will try to turn and face you. Borrow his force and throw him forward. If he think he is stronger than you and try to lean body back to resist you then borrow his resistance and throw him backward.

The "tearing" and "running behind him" is a unique fighting strategy from Baoding SC and will not only give you a new dimension in your wrestling but also give you the "single" method that can fight against any MA styles on this planet.

Oh, nevermind. I was thinking of a Boke for some reason. Anyhow, is tearing like belt-cracking with the jacket on? I think I understand this application now.

Your advice is greatly appreciated, sc_guy (as always).

[ShaolinTiger00]

As far as I know, Judo spends very little effort on breaking the gribs. That's the major difference between SC and Judo but I could be wrong - may be Judo has alreadly integrated this strategy into their system from SC.

Any of your Judo guys care to comment on this?.

yep. exactly the opposite. Grip fighting is a huge part of judo.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sc_guy
Not quite!

Assume your opponent has both hands with strong hold on you and you cannot even move. This is what you can do:

- Grab his right "side door" and right punch to his right shoulder.
- at the same time, pull your left shoulder back with your whole body.
- and also use your left fist to strike his right wrist toward your direction.
- this will break his "right hand hold". If he refuses to let go his right grib then he might get his fingers broken because your are using the whole body weight to against his fingers and his fingers strength better not be stronger than the power that generated from your whole body.
- left hand grab on his right sleeve and punch at his arm, at the same time pull your right shoulder back with the whole body.
- and also use your right fist to strike on his left wrist toward your direction.
- this will break his "left grib".
- now you have your left grib on his right sleeve and his has no grib on you.
- if he wants to get even with you (it does not feel good not to have hold on somebody when he has hold on you) then he has to come to you. You just put him in the "defensive mode".

Most of the Judo players do not like this approach. First the Baoding SC "Tong - punch to the chest, shoulder, or arm" are considered as illegal in Judo. I had played with a Judo instructor once, since his Judo jacket was so loose and my "tearing and Tong" actually hit on his chin. He did not want to play with me after that. As far as I know, Judo spends very little effort on breaking the gribs. That's the major difference between SC and Judo but I could be wrong - may be Judo has alreadly integrated this strategy into their system from SC.

Any of your Judo guys care to comment on this?

grip fighting is a big part of judo. There is at least one book dedicated to grip fighting. proper grip can make or break you in a match.

[Merryprankster]

I'll be even more aggressive about it. At high levels of competition, grip fighting makes or breaks you. EVERYBODY at that level can take you for a ride. Victory often depends on gripfighting.

Even at my level, gripfightig can b huge I am a mediocre thrower. But my gripfighting is pretty good. I am hard to throw cleanly, and I have more opportunities t throw because of it.

Secondly, they didn't incorporate it from SC. It's more or less indigenous to Judo. Judo is an olympic sport with a participant base worldwide second only to Soccer. That's a whole lot of people experimenting with different throws, grips and gripfighting. The average Judoka knows squat about SC--has probably never heard of it. It is highly unlikely that Judoka took gripfighting from SC. I'm sure some Judoka have studied some of the gripwork from SC, but it's highly improbable that Judo owes Gripfighting to SC.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I'll be even more aggressive about it. At high levels of competition, grip fighting makes or breaks you. EVERYBODY at that level can take you for a ride. Victory often depends on gripfighting.

Even at my level, gripfightig can b huge I am a mediocre thrower. But my gripfighting is pretty good. I am hard to throw cleanly, and I have more opportunities t throw because of it.



MP has grip fought with the correct, offabalanced it and slammed it into the mat with harai goshi

[ShaolinTiger00]

harai is not on of MP's throws.

:)

[SevenStar]

you can't tell that from that clip he posted!!

[Merryprankster]

Actually, I was trying for a Tai Otoshi.

I had him so far over already though, that when I stabbed my foot at the ground to complete the throw, he went over my thigh instead.

Oops :D

[ShaolinTiger00]

I was trying for a Tai Otoshi.

*wipes tears from eyes*

That's my boy! you make me proud!

*hug*

[yenhoi]

How do you train for grip fighting?

We start with the wrist, then the elbow, then shoulders and hips, then neck pummeling drills, then thrown in throws, sweeps, takedowns.

Wrist: One person grabs the other persons wrist or forearm, they can then roll thier wrist inward or outward and then grab the grabbers wrist or forearm or elbow...:

Elbow: Grab inside or cup outside the elbow, the other person then rolls their arm, pivoting thier elbow inside our outside, grabbing the grabbers wrist, forearm, elbow, or manipulate or grab the shoulders or hips:

(You can also "swipe" or "clear" down or up your arm..)

Chest: "Swimming" for underhooks and overhooks, we all know this one from high school... to some sort of take down or to the neck.

Etc??



:confused:

[CrippledAvenger]

I've never had any high school or prior wrestling experience before Shuai Chiao, yenhoi. What's this swimming drill you're talking about?

[yenhoi]

Your just kinda rolling or swimming your arms around and under or over his to get loose underhooks and overhooks.. Just like rolling your wrist around his arm to grab his wrist, your kinda rolling your arms and upperbody around his. Sometimes you will have a goal, like getting double underhooks, or double overhooks, or the plumb.

As for the neck: we do something similar, swimming the arms around and inide his arms, working elbow wrenches (sometimes you get caught and there is more then one way out.)

The Judo 'round here, anything involving the neck is forbidden, unless your really sneaky about it.

:eek:

[Merryprankster]

Swimming/pummeling/wrist control/head control type drills for no gi.

With Gi, you work your grips and gripbreaks.

LOL at ST00!!!

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
I've never had any high school or prior wrestling experience before Shuai Chiao, yenhoi. What's this swimming drill you're talking about?

We do this. We just don't name it anything other tha 'grip fighting'. Yenhoi gave a good description of it, you should be able to recognize it from his description.

[Oso]

There is at least one book dedicated to grip fighting.

Title, please?

Grippy judo guys **** me off.

Must learn better grips and grip defense.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Swimming/pummeling/wrist control/head control type drills for no gi.

With Gi, you work your grips and gripbreaks.

LOL at ST00!!!

mp is correct as well. But I would argue that both are simply variations of the same idea. When a jacket is introduced, you take advantage of the mor secure grip it gives you. But the way in which you try to unbalance and manipulate the other guys body is always the same.

[ShaolinTiger00]

But the way in which you try to unbalance and manipulate the other guys body is always the same.

Absoulutely not!!

You'll never be able to apply the different methods of kuzushi without the gi. gi & no gi off-balancing are two different worlds. Granted there is common ground, but "always" is a poor adjective. ex. I'd love to see the day when someone can get a guy like me with a yama arashi or a sode tsurikomi goshi throw without a gi!

And with the gi, many of the techniques you would normally do no gi cannot be done. just try to "swim" with a gi on or do a duckunder while someone has your lapel...

[Water Dragon]

Hey ST00,

Why don't you quit looking in one direction only for once and realize that there are 3 others out there. You don't know half as much as you think you do.

If i want to do an O Soto Gari, I need to post your weight into the front foot. Methods my vary, bit you don't need to magically not unbalance the guy if you put a gi on.

If I want to do O Goshi, I must have my hips under yours to get the throw. Guess what? The gi doesn't change that either.

If I sweep you, I still need you to commit to a step, Gi doesn't change that.

Oh! the game changes and you need to get them into position differently with and without the gi? Well no $hit Sherlock :rolleyes:

But the principle remains the same.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You don't know half as much as you think you do.

Which appears to be twice as much as you know.

you listed O-soto, o goshi

two very simple, in fact elementary throws. (white belt) that do happen to share common ground with virtually every folk style wrestling type on the planet.

There are about 70 more throws in the standard judo cirriculum.

"always the same" - stfu...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso


Title, please?

Grippy judo guys **** me off.

Must learn better grips and grip defense.

The name is really original... you ready?




































Grips!

It's by Neil Adams and is part of the Judo Masterclass series.

http://www.ippon-usa.com

[Oso]

cool. Thanks, Seven.