how many variations of traditional Tan Tui are there???

[stimulant]

Tan Tui is one of my loves.

Learning Mizong quan (the original mizong style) I know the 10 set Tan Tui verison...but I have seen wildly different versions (interpritations?) of this. A good friend of mine does Jing wo and his 12 set Tan Tui has some similarites, but he has said to me to that he has seen 12 set Tan Tui different to his own.

so...how many are there of each? any guestimates?

[mickey]

Hello stimulant,

According to practitioners on this forum, there are several. I have not seen them all. What differs most is the intent to the set: basic practice, beginners form, power and strength development, extinct style, etc.

mickey

[count]

I've learned 2 distinctive sets along the way. The one I practice is the 10 line, Muslim version most people recognize. I suspect there are several veriations of that which have additional lines or different ways of practicing. Sometimes, rather than doing all ten on 3 sides with a finish in between each, we blend one of each and go through five and then turn and do one of each through 10. This works out well for demonstrations and what not.

I also learned a 12 line Tan Tui in my old Northern Shaolin school. It has some similarities, but has generally bigger flowers and not such distinctive line separations.

I have also seen a 12 in a book on Tan Tui that has similarities to both.

My guesstimation is three versions dis-regarding any 12, 14, 24.........versions.

[ngokfei]

Alot of variations exist but most popular are:

10 - Muslim (Cha Quan)

12 - Chin Woo (Mizong Quan)

24 - Shaolin Tzu


Haven't seen the 24 shaolin set yet.

The Chin woo 12 has some simpler roads/rows then the Mizong version I saw on DVD.

The Muslim versions appear more complex expecially in footwork and kicking sequences.

In order to improve myself I've revamped the version I 1st learned and added various roads from other styles. Kind of hard to do 3-4 tan tui forms especially since many roads are similar if not the same.

[cerebus]

And when you take into account that so many arts teach Tan Tui and so many of THEM have sub-styles or branch systems which have developed THEIR own version, I don't think anyone really knows how many different types of Tan Tui there are.

[Robert Young]

> And when you take into account that so many arts teach Tan
> Tui and so many of THEM have sub-styles or branch systems
> which have developed THEIR own version, I don't think anyone
> really knows how many different types of Tan Tui there are.

There were many versions of Tan Tui in northern Shaolin systems. From what I know, there were 4. 6, 8. 10, 12 routines. It may have other versions. It does not really matter which one you practice. It has to do with how your teacher teach it with other things he/she teachs. Tan-Tui is a very good training routines to build your foundations. How many types are there is not important. The most important thing is how and what you can get from it. My personally experience is to really look at yourself after you practice it, see what you have learned and try to gain the most out of it. A good form or routine has its purpose, try to find its purpose and learn from it.

[stimulant]

When we do the 10 set Tan Tui in Mizong Quan our shifu makes us do it as many times as space permits (so long as we stop facing the opposite direction we started from so the next Tan Tui can go back to the original starting position).

The only one we stop in the middle is Tan Tui 8 because it is one sided, whereas all the other Tan Tui's have mirror images for each side.

does anyone else have the same as this?

[ngokfei]

stimulant

Our Chin Woo origin version in row 7 was originally done on one side only but we've since added a transition move so it can be done continuously.

I like doing each row as far as we can go but space is limited and some roads we can barely do the required 3 repetitions.

For beginners we just teach one side 1st then show the applications. When the get it then we show the mirror side. Its funny some believe there is actually a Siu/Small Tan Tui and a Dai/Big Tan Tui now. (heh, heh)

[stimulant]

ngokfei

maybe I wasnt clear in our MiZong Quan tan tui 8 explination (or maybe you did understand me!)

our Tan Tui 8 is continues but when it stops it stops in the middle, so if I were doing sets of 4 on each of the tan tui, tan tui 8 would have to be done 3.5 or 4.5 times in order to finish in the opposite direction to inorder to go back to starting point while doing Tan Tui 9. then Tan Tui 10 would start go back to the starting point again.

Ours always go odd numbers (Tan Tui 1,3,5,7,9) left to right (facing the front at start), and even numbers (Tan Tui 2,4,6,8,10) right to left (but travel left as we face the rear at the start of the even number Tan Tui's) back to the original start position.

I hope that makes sense!

if anyones interested I'll put a basic description of our 10 Tan Tui's up here. it would be interesting to see if anyone does the same 10 or has any or the same ones.

[WuMan]

I would be interested in a description of your 10 row Tan Tui. From what you've said, it sounds similar to the one I practice, except my sifu only taught me 1-6 because he said the rest were pretty much repeats and not needed.

I practice Mi Zong LUOHAN

[stimulant]

WuMan...

all our Tan Tui have the same first movment, and our Tan Tui's 1, 3, 6, 9, 10 all have the same first 3 movements, but apart from that they are all different. If it is not rude you should ask your Shifu to teach you the other Tan Tui.

I also Have A Mizong Family Tree (in chinese with only my shifu's branch translated into english) if you are interested. All styles of Mizong should be able to trace their style back to someone on it.


ok I'll only describe Tan Tui one for now....


1) Stand feet together arms by sides.

2) Bring both fists to waist for the ready position.

very small pause

3) Bring left arm up slightly bent with palm facing the roof, fingers pointing to your right so the back of your left hand is over your head. (this is the starting position).

small pause

4) Look to your right and bring your left arm down so your left palm comes down on the right side of your right shoulder in a block and punch with your right hand (to your right) over your left palm with the fist vertical and left palm kept at your right armpit. This punch is done smoothly with speed and power. All our Tan Tui's start AND finsih this way.

small pause

5) Keep your right arm out in the same position and bring your left
hand back to your waist in a fist.

small pause

6) Step your left leg to your left into left bow stance, (foot roll - heel down first with a gentle roll to flat foot) and punch left hand (fist vertical) in time with the foot roll so the punch and bow stance are one contious movment. right arm should be out straight still with fist vertical and slightly above head hight. Bow stance should be low with front leg at 90 degrees with your left knee (when you look down) between the heel and toes of your left foot. this punch is down with power again but it is far more smoother than any of the others and the power is very deceptive as it is harder to see.

longer pause

7) Bend your left arm so you elbow faces forwards with your left fist being hoizontal with your thumb touching your left 'pec' muscle. done fast.

small pause

8) Take both arms (straight with fists horizontal and the finger side facing the roof) in an anti clockwise circle in front of your body and back your wasit (done fast) at the same time as stepping your right leg slightly to the right (varies how far to the right on your height!, but about maybe 12-18 inches) keeping your front leg bent at 90 degrees.

small pause

9) Punch in front with your right arm (fist vertical) and behind with your left arm (fist vertical) at the same time both with lots of power. Both arms straight with the front arm (right arm) flat and the rear arm (left) slightly up so left fist is above your head.

longer pause

10) Keep left arm stationary in the same position and, in one motion, bring right fist to your right 'pec' and over and down into a downwards backfist that stops so your right arm is slighty bent with your knuckles facing the ground after the downwards backfist block (done fast with power).

longer pause

11) KEEPING THE LEFT ARM IN THE SAME POSITION do a front grion kick with right foot (fast with lots of power) while bringing the right fist back to waist at the same time (so your arm is in a '****ed' position for the punch when you land after the kick). Land in right bow stance rolling the foot (heel first and roll smoothly to flat foot) and punch striaght with the right fist in vertical position (as in step 6) deceptivly powerful again.

now do steps 7 to 11 in mirror image for the other side

same timing as before.

To stop....

From the bow stance punch (as in step 11 / 6), bring your rear foot to your front foot so you face the opposite direction you started that Tan Tui in with your right hand coming to your waist and your left arm up (slighty bent) with palm facing the roof (as in step 3). then punch as in step 4.

Its all clear to me (becasue I wrote it and can visualise it!), but I probably have confused the rest of you! any questions post them here and I will try to clarify meself.


does anyone have the same or very similar Tan Tui 1?

[GeneChing]

In the BSL version that I know, we don't begin with the right punch, we only use that as a parsing movement between the other lines. The opening and closing is a little different.

I've seen a lot of tan tui forms. A LOT. And the first three lines are pretty consistent. Things get more scrambled at line four, which is generally an atypical line anyway like eight (but the BSL are 4 and 8 are still symettrical.) That sort of follows to reason if you think about the transmission. If taught in ascending order, which I assume most all of us do, we practice the earlier lines first and therefore more often.

As an interesting aside, my tan tui shifu changed line two himself for his students. One day he just announced that we should do it this different way since he didn't see the use in doing it the previous way. It was a bit of a shock, but the new version did make more sense.

[mickey]

Gene?

Is that why the second section of the WLE Tan Tui video looks the way it does?

mickey

[WuMan]

stimulant,

thanks for the description. When I first started Mi Zong Lohan, my sifu was teaching me the version you described, or very simliar, but I only learned the first couple moves. The next weeek he taught me the "long" version which I assume is 12 Tan Tui. If your interestd, I could try to film the version I learned.

[mickey]

My mistake Gene,

I reread your post. You did say Tan Tui sifu. I'll be more careful next time.

mickey

[stimulant]

WuMan it wouild be great if you could get a vid clip of one or more of the Tan Tui you do up here.

[stimulant]

here is a great site with diagrams of tan tui....

2 or 3 of them our similar to the ones in Mizong quan.

www.wushu.cz/shaolin_tantui_cz.html

[GeneChing]

No, you're right. I learned Tan Tui from Sifu Wing Lam. Well, sort of. I learned it from his number one instructor, Jan Har Young, but was coached on it repeatedly over the years from Sifu Lam. And the version he did for his video series is his newly modified version. In your version, do you turn around in line 2? That's the way we used to do it, but the change came probably around the late 80's early 90's.

[mickey]

Hi Gene,

The 12 line version that I learned does not turn around. Its straight line aggressive. That way that I have seen your 10 line version is, after the punch and kick, a 90 degree upper body rotation to punch 90 degrees offline. The way that I saw it on the tape I have seen in other Shaolin 12 line versions. I thought that it was a marker used to track anyone who does it publically.

mickey

[mickey]

Hi Stimulant,

Those Tan Tui diagrams come from a basic training book that is in Chinese. I had someone read the poem to me that was in the book; the poem mentions that though Tan Tui looks simple, it is quite advanced. I think it also mentioned stamping and shouting. I am not sure on this. The book also features Tuan Da (short Strike) and Kung Li Chuan (Power-Discipline Fist). Some of the drawings from that book were used for the Wah Lum Temple brochure some time ago.

mickey

[WuMan]

I will post video by friday or saturday, lots of exams this week.

The first 3 rows of the link you posted are how mine is performed, row 5 and 7 are actually row 4 and 5, respectively, from what I've learned.