Ou Lou Tsai

[mantisben]

Hi Folks!

I was pondering the 3rd keyword "Tsai". I was wondering what it is supposed to mean formally, and/or what is your interpretation of it individually? Also, how it is applied?

Formally, it means "Pluck" or "Gather". I don't see how "Tsai" would relate to "Gather", but I can see how it would relate to "Pluck". I've come to translate the english word "Pluck" into the english word "Yank".

Is my translation correct? I don't read much about "Yanking" in PM techniques, but "Yanking" is an effective technique, and I believe, augments the effectiveness of many PM techniques.

As one example, I learned on this forum (I can't remember who posted it), they said you could Ou Lou ending in a grip of your opponents hair, then apply "Tsai" to "Pluck" or "Yank" the opponents head down, up, back, or sideways as a means of temporary control before delivering a strike (or barrage of strikes). I think this this is an excellent technique that conforms to "Tsai" as it relates to the word "Yank".

"Tsai" is a "Keyword" in PM which I interpret as "Key" to understanding and applying many of the techniques in PM. To date, I have only seen mention of "Tsai" after Ou Lou. Also, I've read that Ou Lou Tsai could mean more like "Hook", "Grapple", "Strike" (Tung Chui) as opposed to "Hook", "Grapple", "Pluck" (Yank).

I don't take any of the PM keywords lightly...

[B.Tunks]

Hi Mantisben,

>Formally, it means "Pluck" or "Gather". I don't see how "Tsai" would relate to "Gather", but I can see how it would relate to "Pluck".

Gather is one of the accepted english translations of 'Lou'. Pluck, pick and snatch are a few of the standard translations of 'Cai' or 'Tsai'.

>I've come to translate the english word "Pluck" into the english word "Yank".

I think this is an acceptable enough translation, as may be 'jerk', or 'reef' (of course all three may be easily misinterpreted). Personally I like 'snatch' (this is starting to sound a bit dodgy, ha ha), but 'pluck' and 'pick' are fine...

>Is my translation correct?

It's certainly not incorrect, in as far as the english language is able to explain Tanglang Quan.

>As one example, I learned on this forum (I can't remember who posted it), they said you could Ou Lou ending in a grip of your opponents hair, then apply "Tsai" to "Pluck" or "Yank" the opponents head down, up, back, or sideways as a means of temporary control before delivering a strike (or barrage of strikes). I think this this is an excellent technique that conforms to "Tsai" as it relates to the word "Yank".

I agree on this example. Generally, in my own experience 'Cai' typically pulls the oponent in and down or across at an angle.

>To date, I have only seen mention of "Tsai" after Ou Lou.

'Cai', 'Tsai' are both often used completely independently of the other two techniques.

>Also, I've read that Ou Lou Tsai could mean more like "Hook", "Grapple", "Strike" (Tung Chui) as opposed to "Hook", "Grapple", "Pluck" (Yank).

These are two different 'Tsai'. the problem lies in the romanisation of chinese words. For starters, we are all using a mish-mash of wade-giles and pinyin, cantonese (and its romanised version, which i forgot the name of) and mandarin.
The 'Tsai' you refer to in 'Ou, Lou, Tsai', 'Gou, Lou, Chui' is a blow.
'Gou, Lou, Cai' are listed in series as part of the key word formula of Tanglang Quan. 'Gou, Lou, Cui', although one of the most common techniques of mantis boxing, is not.
Apologies if i'm repeating earlier advice.
Hope this helps.
B.T

[No_Know]

Ou as grab and deflect-ish

Lou seems to cover and keep the deflection going or prevent it from returning to defend. This might be a pulling (from above or below) But this is the pull-ish not Tsai (you try to make the part you don't understand Fit here where it makes sense but there is already a name).

Tsai could be idiom or picturesque reflecting a concept of reward. like harvesting. While pluck has a pulling down'in meaning. It could be the Chinese language thinking to say without saying if you hit the person well it is like plucking ripe fruit.

Ou Lou seem to me to be set-up to -ish guaratee the hit (by someone with praying mantis thinking (/training).

Tsai might refer to non-literal guaranteed hit but being Chinese is suggestive instead of blunt--you use your mind to grasp the meaning instead of being told and no creativity or mental development occuring or fostered.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by B.Tunks

...
Gather is one of the accepted english translations of 'Lou'. Pluck, pick and snatch are a few of the standard translations of 'Cai' or 'Tsai'.
Thanks for the correction.

The 'Tsai' you refer to in 'Ou, Lou, Tsai', 'Gou, Lou, Chui' is a blow.
'Gou, Lou, Cai' are listed in series as part of the key word formula of Tanglang Quan. 'Gou, Lou, Cui', although one of the most common techniques of mantis boxing, is not.
Apologies if i'm repeating earlier advice.
Hope this helps.

B.T

Ahhh! Gou, Lou, "Chui" is not the same as Gou, Lou, "Tsai/Cai". This clears up alot for me!

Thank you very much B.T!

[mantisben]

Originally posted by No_Know
...
It could be the Chinese language thinking to say without saying if you hit the person well it is like plucking ripe fruit.
...

...
Tsai might refer to non-literal guaranteed hit but being Chinese is suggestive instead of blunt--
...

Based on these statements, I might conclude that "Tsai" isn't a technique at all. But I believe "Tsai" is technique in itself. Even though I only know of a few techniques where I can effectively use "Tsai".

"Tsai" is difficult for me to practice without sparring. It is easier to practice "Tsai" when sparring. Also, more apparent. For example, if I "yank" in a form, it isn't detectable to the eye. But if I "yank" on someones arm (or neck), I see the effect of the "yank" manifest in the opponent.

I use "yanking" to apply arm-bars against a resisting opponent. If they try a force-against-force resisting of the arm-bar, I'll try to reposition my body behind the opponent simultaneously violently "yanking" on my opponent's arm to get him off balance long enough for me to apply the arm-bar. Usually, my opponent and I will go in circles with me constantly "jerking" their arm and reposition my body, and them trying to resist the arm-bar and retain their balance.

I discovered "Tsai" in an arm-bar by accident. During a rough sparring session with one of my stronger friends (always has been, always will be), he is hitting me at will. We clinch, and I try an arm-bar which he resists saying "I'm too strong for you...". I got mad, and started "yanking" on his arm pulling him off balance, and then BINGO! He taps out in my arm-bar.

I'd also like to add that in yanking my opponent "off balance", I don't mean "off balance, then he falls to the floor". I mean "off balance so he doesn't have any leverage to apply resistance".

Also, when I "yank", I don't remain stationary. After yanking, I reposition my body either for another yank, or to strike. Kind of like in a "tug-of-war" with a rope. You pull the rope, reposition your feet and body, then pull again, then reposition your feet and body, then pull again, then reposition...

Finally, unless I "Tsai" my opponents joint out of socket, which I'm not strong enough to do, it will never end the fight. It may lead to the beginning of the end, or it may just lead to a follow-up of successful strikes. It may lead neither one of these...

Thank you for your comments No_Know!

[mantis108]

Some points are already shared by Brendan. Here's some of my thoughts:

1) When dealing with terminology in PM, it is important to understand the background of the style and it's specific lineage. In other words, spent sometime studying the history and development of the style and the lineage. Mantis, the system, is becoming enormous which is normal since it has been developing for hundreds of years. There are about 4 major branches and many sub branches today. We then come to each lineage forming even more "styles". The usage of the terminology changes accordingly. An example is in the style of Quanpu (manuscripts). Different style uses different way to describe its theory and practice. Terminology varies according to the understanding and insight of the stylist. This has to be understood clearly before attending to work on terminology. It would IMHO futile to try to understand something important such as the keywords by understanding the literal meaning of the keywords. Simple words can not fully disclose the dynamics of the combat situation. It can only convey a vivid description.

2) Keywords varies quite drastically from branche to branche. That is to say TJPM would be quite different from 7 stars. It is important to note the different because it means that the fighting approaches are different. Equally important, this doesn't mean that one is superior than the other. It only means that we all see things differently.

3) While Gao, Lu, and Tsai are 3 seperate keywords of the 7 stars, there are somewhat grouped under feng (sealing) in TJPM. BTW, feng, especially Shueng Feng (double sealing) also means using Gao and Lu together. In essence, sealing is a form of trapping which is a measure for not trading punches with opponent once the gap is closed. Moreover, sealing in mantis put ourselves into a superior position in relation to the opponent while standing. In the positional hiarchery of mantis, feng is primary IMHO.

4) Gao, Lu and Tsai basically forms a 1-2-3 rhythm but it should rather be understood as 1 beat not 3. This is a significant stylistic distinction since there are styles such as Silat would use 1-2-3-4 instead.

5) In WHF's terminology, there are a few entries related to Gao-Lu-Tsai:

Tsai Shou
Gao Lu Tsai Shou
Lu Shou
Feng Shou
Tsai Tong Chui
Nien Shou

I am not going into it right now because the post is getting quite long.

6) <<<Is my translation correct? I don't read much about "Yanking" in PM techniques, but "Yanking" is an effective technique, and I believe, augments the effectiveness of many PM techniques.

As one example, I learned on this forum (I can't remember who posted it), they said you could Ou Lou ending in a grip of your opponents hair, then apply "Tsai" to "Pluck" or "Yank" the opponents head down, up, back, or sideways as a means of temporary control before delivering a strike (or barrage of strikes). I think this this is an excellent technique that conforms to "Tsai" as it relates to the word "Yank".>>>

It sounds to me you are referring to CCK TCPM's "Gwa Fu Puchan" application. In my experience, this move is not about "yanking" although you could. This application is to make use of the Shun Fa (body method). BTW, I think there will be an article by me in the Mantis Quarterly about the body method soon. *A major shamless plug* ;) This move is IMHO a variation of what the old Quanpu in TJPM would call Zuoyou Er Yinyang (left and right two yinyang). It uses gao-lu as a combination which I think WHF would define as tsai. It could work as a takedown as well.

Sorry about the rather long winded post. :)

Mantis108

[-N-]

Originally posted by mantisben
Also, when I "yank", I don't remain stationary. After yanking, I reposition my body either for another yank, or to strike. Kind of like in a "tug-of-war" with a rope. You pull the rope, reposition your feet and body, then pull again, then reposition your feet and body, then pull again, then reposition...

Finally, unless I "Tsai" my opponents joint out of socket, which I'm not strong enough to do, it will never end the fight Against the stronger or heavier opponent, try jumping in and striking at the same time you pull yourself to him. Use a relaxed sharp jerk. First strike lands at the same time as the yank - while you are in mid-air. Try to land a couple more strikes before your lead foot touches the ground. Once you're back on the ground, go with your momentum and take a step and hit him some more.

Mantis should be able to fly :)

N.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by mantis108 ...
3) While Gao, Lu, and Tsai are 3 seperate keywords of the 7 stars, there are somewhat grouped under feng (sealing) in TJPM. BTW, feng, especially Shueng Feng (double sealing) also means using Gao and Lu together.
As far as you know, in TCPM or 7*, is "Tsai" ever used independently of Gao and Lu, or in combination with techniques other than Gao and Lu?

Do you know of any references to "Tsai" as an independent PM keyword and technique?

It sounds to me you are referring to CCK TCPM's "Gwa Fu Puchan" application. In my experience, this move is not about "yanking" although you could. This application is to make use of the Shun Fa (body method).
Although the body is involved in an effective "Tsai/Pluck/Yank", I'm not talking about a method of using your body, other than to maximize the "jerking" motion your opponent goes through when he is getting "Plucked". I don't know what Shun Fa (Body Method) is, but it sounds great!

It uses gao-lu as a combination which I think WHF would define as tsai.

Does WHF define "Gao-Lu"="Tsai"? I thought these were 3 different and seperate keywords. I know that they usually follow each other, but must they ALWAYS follow each other?

I'd like to mention that I practice 7*PM in the WHF lineage.

Your input is always greatly appreciated Mantis108!

[mantisben]

Originally posted by -N-
Against the stronger or heavier opponent, try jumping in and striking at the same time you pull yourself to him.
...

N.
I like the idea of "pulling yourself" to your opponent and hitting him on the way in.

First strike lands at the same time as the yank - while you are in mid-air. Try to land a couple more strikes before your lead foot touches the ground.
...

A couple of strikes before my lead-foot touches the ground? I'm not as fast as you -N-.

Thanks for the technique!

[mantis108]

Hi Mantisben,

Thanks for the clarification. :) Here's some more thoughts

<<<As far as you know, in TCPM or 7*, is "Tsai" ever used independently of Gao and Lu, or in combination with techniques other than Gao and Lu?>>>

WHF definitions on Gao, Lu, Tsai are as follow:

The "grab" from my outside gate to my opponent's outside gate is Gao. It is "hui" (empty) meaning not applying strength. In other words, connect your right hand with the opponent's right wrist using your mantis hand formation is consider Gao (hook)

The "grab" from my inside gate to my opponent's outside gate is Lu. It is "Shr" (solid) meaning applying with strength relative to no strength of the Gao. In other words, connet your left hand with the opponent's right forearm is Lu (grab). *note that this is one way of Lu* This is also feng (sealing)

If you are applying Gao with your right hand and Lu with your left hand to your opponent's incoming right straight punch, then you have done a Gao and a Lu (seperated). When the Gao and the Lu are done as one move together, that's Shuang Feng (double sealing).

It is important to note that as WHF's definition goes Gao Lu is Hui Shr as well. This is how the changes can be born of Gao Lu. This means that one hand is soft while the other is hard. That's the "secret" of the Gao Lu IMHO. ;)

If you do multiple Gao Lu, that becomes Tsai.

In TJPM, Tsai is a technique instead of a keyword, it's like a snatch. I think this is like Brendan said. It is termed as Zuo Tsai (left pluck/snatch) or You Tsai (right pluck/snatch).

<<<Do you know of any references to "Tsai" as an independent PM keyword and technique?>>>

Tsai is an independent technique in TJPM as far as I am aware. It is not a Keyword as it is in 7 Stars.

<<<Does WHF define "Gao-Lu"="Tsai"? I thought these were 3 different and seperate keywords. I know that they usually follow each other, but must they ALWAYS follow each other?

I'd like to mention that I practice 7*PM in the WHF lineage.>>>

As far as the literature of WHF goes, the Gao-Lu-Tsai give the meaning of a rhythm 1-2-3. Three being endless. So the Tsai is more of a reminder that Gao Lu (1-2) could be used repeatedly. So he expand that into Gao-Lu-Tsai Shou. The Shou is a strike. So with this understanding, we can see that Tsai Tong Chui, really is Gao (with the right hand) and Lu (with the left hand), which is already Tsai especially when you need to gain control with more then one time Gao Lu. Strike (tong chui) make up the 1-2-3 rhythm.

BTW, although some lineages might interpret Tsai as "jerking energy" or Tsai jing, it is not encouraged in general. In the situation that you mentioned, there is other options IMHO. The general rule in applying Chin Na is that hard and soft compliments each other. Look for other oppotunities if the initial lock is not going to make it. Flow drill will help alot in recgonizing "oppotunities".

Couple of suggestion:

1) check the point of contact in applying the arm bar. Applying the lock at the correct point helps to get the job done much easier and reduce the change of the opponent "muscle out" of a lock.

2) When an opponent trys to muscle out of a lock, he would usually offers you another target unintentionally. Keep your eyes open for that instead.

More important of all stay relaxed. You will offer him a lot of what your intentions are if you stay tensed.

Anyway, hope this help. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[-N-]

Originally posted by mantisben
I like the idea of "pulling yourself" to your opponent and hitting him on the way in.Well, that's what my teacher told us to do. No point in struggling trying to muscle the opponent over to you. That's when he'll hit you :)


Originally posted by mantisben
First strike lands at the same time as the yank - while you are in mid-air. Try to land a couple more strikes before your lead foot touches the ground....

A couple of strikes before my lead-foot touches the ground? I'm not as fast as you...Actually, that would be 3 strikes, counting the one with the grab. It's not that hard. It's something worth practicing. Mantis is known for multiple strikes within one footwork. If you don't train it, you'll look like all the other guys standing around trading one-sie two-sies.

You can start by working on 2 strikes in one step. 1st strike lands in midstep, 2nd strike lands at the end of the step.

After you get the hang of that, let the 2nd strike land just before your lead foot touches the ground. This way your sinking force will transfer into your opponent rather than into the ground.

Next, start cutting down the gap between your first two strikes so that both are completed at mid-step. Then you can add a third strike at the end.

If you keep training like this, you can do 3 and 5 strikes in one step. It will help to do plyometric footwork training so that you have explosive long stepping.

Later, you can add a 2nd and 3rd step on the same side or on the alternate side.

BTW, re WHF lineage... who do you train with?


have fun! :)
N.

[mantisben]

...
The "grab" from my inside gate to my opponent's outside gate is Lu. It is "Shr" (solid) meaning applying with strength relative to no strength of the Gao. In other words, connet your left hand with the opponent's right forearm is Lu (grab). *note that this is one way of Lu* This is also feng (sealing)

If you are applying Gao with your right hand and Lu with your left hand to your opponent's incoming right straight punch, then you have done a Gao and a Lu (seperated). When the Gao and the Lu are done as one move together, that's Shuang Feng (double sealing).

This explains Sealing and Double-Sealing to me clearly. Thank you very much!

If you do multiple Gao Lu, that becomes Tsai.

So ((Gao + Lu) + (Gao + Lu)) = "Tsai" according to WHF? No "Plucking"? Brendan Tunks mentioned that "Gao Lu Tsai" has been interpreted as "Gao Lu Chui" and "Gao Lu Tsai". "Chui" means to "strike", and "Tsai" means to "Pluck" or "Snatch".

As far as the literature of WHF goes, the Gao-Lu-Tsai give the meaning of a rhythm 1-2-3. Three being endless. So the Tsai is more of a reminder that Gao Lu (1-2) could be used repeatedly. So he expand that into Gao-Lu-Tsai Shou. The Shou is a strike. So with this understanding, we can see that Tsai Tong Chui, really is Gao (with the right hand) and Lu (with the left hand), which is already Tsai especially when you need to gain control with more then one time Gao Lu. Strike (tong chui) make up the 1-2-3 rhythm.

Again here, I see "Tsai" mentioned, but no "Plucking" action. Are you sure WHF meant "Gao-Lu-Tsai" and not "Gao-Lu-Chui"?

Based on what you are saying here, based on the WHF literature, there is no "Plucking" in his meaning of "Tsai". "Tsai" is Gao Lu twice.

BTW, although some lineages might interpret Tsai as "jerking energy" or Tsai jing, it is not encouraged in general.

Aahhh! "Jerking Energy". I like that terminology. What lineages might interpret "Tsai" as "Jerking Energy"? I think that is how I am interpreting "Tsai". I think Tsai energy has its place. Thai boxers use this type of energy when they violently "yank" the back of their opponents head/neck into a knee-strike in the face. I've seen UFC fights where it looks like one of the fighters is cupping the back of an opponents neck, and pulling their opponents face into repeated vertical-fist strikes, right on the "button". Show-stoppers. Just because it works for them, doesn't mean it will work for me, but the technique looked simple enough to apply.


Couple of suggestion:

1) check the point of contact in applying the arm bar. Applying the lock at the correct point helps to get the job done much easier and reduce the change of the opponent "muscle out" of a lock.

If my opponent has "leverage" when I'm trying to apply an arm-bar, they can usually muscle their way out of it with very little effort, especially if they are stronger. By applying "Tsai" as "Jerking energy" in my arm-bar, this removes the opponents leverage/balance for a quick split moment, making it easier to apply my arm-bar.

I'd like to add that taking away an opponents leverage is not a requirement for me to apply an arm-bar, but taking away my opponents leverage has made it easier for me to apply an arm-bar. Now that I think about it, taking away an opponents leverage has made alot of techniques easier for me.

2) When an opponent trys to muscle out of a lock, he would usually offers you another target unintentionally. Keep your eyes open for that instead.

In my experience, when someone muscles their way out of a lock, they usually come out of it and start head-hunting. I haven't fought a grappler yet, but they may come out of my arm-bar trying to grab me and snap one of my bones...


More important of all stay relaxed. You will offer him a lot of what your intentions are if you stay tensed.

Anyway, hope this help. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

I'll try to remember to keep relaxed. Your posts are very helpful. Much respect you Mantis108!

[Young Mantis]

I have not read the WHF texts in a while and will have to look them over again tonight. But as far as I remember, Tsai does not mean you have to do ou-lou repeated times. He does say having completed ou-lou is already to have achieved tsai. He also writes about just tsai shou but I will have to re-read it to explain it in detail.

As for Brendan's comments on ou-lou-tsai vs ou-lou-chui, I have never heard of the latter term, where ou-lou is followed with the word chui or fist. I do not recall ever seeing that specifc phrase in any of the WHF texts.

I find many people place such an extraordinary emphasis on the 12 keywords. To be honest, we do not spend much class time going over them. We just practice the san sau or techniques. Sifu has his own way of grouping and categorizing them for teaching. I don't believe the 12 keywords were developed first and then techniques later based on the keywords. I think the techniques were developed and the keywords came later as a way of identifying them. I think of them more as a guideline to the system but not necessarily a strict definition of it. That is not to say though that analyzing them doesn't have merit.

YM

[-N-]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
I find many people place such an extraordinary emphasis on the 12 keywords. To be honest, we do not spend much class time going over them. We just practice the san sau or techniques. Sifu has his own way of grouping and categorizing them for teaching.Yep, that's how it was with Sifu Lai also.

N.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
As for Brendan's comments on ou-lou-tsai vs ou-lou-chui, I have never heard of the latter term, where ou-lou is followed with the word chui or fist. I do not recall ever seeing that specifc phrase in any of the WHF texts.

I don't see in any of Brendan's comments where he ever said Ou-Lou-Chui appeared in a WHF text.


...
I don't believe the 12 keywords were developed first and then techniques later based on the keywords. I think the techniques were developed and the keywords came later as a way of identifying them.
...
As far as I know, when the Praying Mantis insect was being studied, they didn't mimic the Praying Mantis insect's techniques, they mimiced its principles. The techniques came later.

That is not to say though that analyzing them doesn't have merit.
That "merit" you mention in analyzing the keywords is what I am after.

What "merit" do you think analyzing the PM "keywords" has?

[mantisben]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by -N-
...
You can start by working on 2 strikes in one step. 1st strike lands in midstep, 2nd strike lands at the end of the step.

After you get the hang of that, let the 2nd strike land just before your lead foot touches the ground. This way your sinking force will transfer into your opponent rather than into the ground.
...

Thanks for the tips. I'll give this a shot.

BTW, re WHF lineage... who do you train with?
...

I trained briefly with one of Brendan Lai's students for approximately 2.5 years when I was 15 years old.

[-N-]

Originally posted by mantisben
I trained briefly with one of Brendan Lai's students for approximately 2.5 years when I was 15 years old. Hmm... one of my classmates then? Which one?

N.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by -N-
Hmm... one of my classmates then? Which one?

N.
Sifu Tony Chuy.

[B.Tunks]

Hi Young Mantis,


Originally posted by Young Mantis
As for Brendan's comments on ou-lou-tsai vs ou-lou-chui, I have never heard of the latter term, where ou-lou is followed with the word chui or fist. I do not recall ever seeing that specifc phrase in any of the WHF texts.
YM [/B]

What I was saying is that I think Mantisben was confusing two completely different chinese characters as a result of their romanisation (I will write them in pinyin): CAI and CUI. Because he is using romanisaton of cantonese he has both of these characters written as 'TSAI'.
In mandarin (which I am comfortable with because I train in mainland), there is GOU, LOU, CAI and there is also GOU, LOU, CHUI. What GOU, LOU, CHUI equals in romanised cantonese, I am not certain, but I think its something along the lines of- OU, LOU, CHOI/CHOY.
(Someone help me out here from the H.K family please. I dont have Lee Kamwing's or other english language mantis books so I am not too familiar with the romanised canto terms).

Anyway, myself I dont recall WHF using the specific term 'GOU, LOU, CHUI' in his material but it is a common name used throughout Tanglang, especially in China. It is not listed in Quan Pu, but is certainly in general usage. You could call it kind of Tanglang slang perhaps, part of the common vernacular of Mantis Boxing.

As for the rest of your post and the relevance of keywords: 100% spot on.
B.T

[B.Tunks]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
I don't believe the 12 keywords were developed first and then techniques later based on the keywords. I think the techniques were developed and the keywords came later as a way of identifying them. YM

I'm with this all the way.

(BTW- all the caps in my last post were just to highlight words. I wasn't yelling keywords at everybody, ha ha)...

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by mantisben

I don't see in any of Brendan's comments where he ever said Ou-Lou-Chui appeared in a WHF text.

I did not imply that Brendan made those comments. But you were the one that connected the term ou-lou-chui to WHF when you asked Mantis108:
Again here, I see "Tsai" mentioned, but no "Plucking" action. Are you sure WHF meant "Gao-Lu-Tsai" and not "Gao-Lu-Chui"?

As far as I know, when the Praying Mantis insect was being studied, they didn't mimic the Praying Mantis insect's techniques, they mimiced its principles. The techniques came later.

Well, if we are going to go by the legends, then my understanding is that Wong Long was inspired by a fight between a mantis and a cicada. The mantis was not practicing principles, it was using it's own "techniques" to fight an adversary. But this is the legend. It just doesn't seem to probable to create principles before techniques but you may be right.

That "merit" you mention in analyzing the keywords is what I am after.

What "merit" do you think analyzing the PM "keywords" has?

The fact that the 12 keywords exist and my Sitaigung WHF wrote many texts about it is reason for me to analyze them. For me, it is more of an academic pursuit of my mantis training. Just as in many other disciplines, there are the principles and theories that one reads and studies that are related to the practical exercises but not necessarily the most important part of that discipline.

YM

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by B.Tunks

Anyway, myself I dont recall WHF using the specific term 'GOU, LOU, CHUI' in his material but it is a common name used throughout Tanglang, especially in China. It is not listed in Quan Pu, but is certainly in general usage. You could call it kind of Tanglang slang perhaps, part of the common vernacular of Mantis Boxing.
B.T

Hi Brendan,

I hope you didn't think I was attacking your comments or trying to invalidate them. The terms you offered were mingling with conversations regarding the WHF texts and I wanted to make clear that to my knowledge, WHF never used that term. That is not to say that it does not exist, of course it does as you have pointed out. I have had very little association to mainland China practitioners of tanglang so I am not aware of the lingo. I was only speaking on behalf of my lineage and did not mean for anyone to assume I was attacking your post.

Thanks for the info and insight into mainland tanglang practice. I can see how ou-lou-chui can be used and will have to think about it some more.

YM

[B.Tunks]

Young Mantis

No offence at all! I think we are on the same page as usual.
I was just pointing out for the benefit of Mantisben (or any interested parties), that although GOU LOU CHUI (as a technique name), is not WHF specific terminology, it does exist as a technique within Tanglang Quan and is at the same time not expressed in series as part of the many versions of the 12 keyword formula.
I think what we are all getting at is that many techniques have varying names. On the other hand, there are some standards that go across the board.
B.T

[mantisben]

Originally quoted by Young Mantis

But you were the one that connected the term ou-lou-chui to WHF when you asked Mantis108:
Again here, I see "Tsai" mentioned, but no "Plucking" action. Are you sure WHF meant "Gao-Lu-Tsai" and not "Gao-Lu-Chui"?
I "asked" Mantis108 if WHF meant "Chui" and not "Tsai". The key word here being asked.
I didn't say, would never say, and could never say what WHF meant to say or write, or didn't write, or meant to write, by anything he has ever said or written because I've never read any WHF books. I don't read or speak Chinese (Mandarin, Cantonese, Pinyin, etc). But Mantis108 has read the books, and after it was made clear to me by B.T. that "Tsai/Cai" and "Chui/Choy" were different, I asked Mantis108 if there was some correlation. You answered with a resounding NO. Thank you, I won't visit that thought again.


Originally quoted by Young Mantis
...It just doesn't seem to probable to create principles before techniques but you may be right.
I may be wrong also. I'm wrong at least once a year. Beside, whichever one came first, the techniques or the principles, they're both important to understanding PM, in my opinion. But I could be wrong about that too.


Originally quoted by Young Mantis
The fact that the 12 keywords exist and my Sitaigung WHF wrote many texts about it is reason for me to analyze them. For me, it is more of an academic pursuit of my mantis training. Just as in many other disciplines, there are the principles and theories that one reads and studies that are related to the practical exercises but not necessarily the most important part of that discipline.

YM
It is nice to hear that WHF wrote many texts about it. I don't know for sure that he wrote MANY texts on it, I'm just going by what you just posted (and I trust it). Maybe some day I'll come across an english translation of his published texts that won't lose any of its original meaning. Maybe I won't. I would like to read what he wrote about the PM system including the 12 keywords. I would also conclude from your statement that whether he may, or may not have placed an extraordinary emphasis on the 12 keywords, he considered it important enough to spend time writing many texts about it.

Are they dispensible? Evidently, some of them are. I just learned that not all keywords are keywords in all branches of Northern Praying Mantis. TCPM doesn't contain "Tsai" as a keyword. "Tsai" was the keyword I was originally posting about! I've also read (and I quote) "there are doubts about the terminology of the 12-keywords, which do not cover the scope of the techniques of the system.

I, myself, don't think I place too much emphasis on the keywords, but I don't take them lightly either.

[Young Mantis]

mantisben,

You are right, "many texts" would be an overstatement in regards to the keywords. WHF wrote a lot about the PM system but rather sparsely in regards to the keywords. Thanks for that correction, I was writing quite fast at the time I posted that.

YM

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
mantisben,

You are right, "many texts" would be an overstatement in regards to the keywords. WHF wrote a lot about the PM system but rather sparsely in regards to the keywords. Thanks for that correction, I was writing quite fast at the time I posted that.

YM
I didn't state or imply "many texts" would be an overstatement. Also, I didn't correct you, you corrected yourself because as you stated, you were writing fast at the time of the post.