How wrong am I??

[Suntzu]

seem me and Iron Fist(Iron Fist and I for the anal grammer people) have opened a whole new can of whoop azz on this forum with the pics.... but how wrong is my form on this joint?... can it be fixed or should i just stick to the leg press?....

[IronFist]

Remember that there are various ways to squat. Powerlifters will generally squat differently from Bodybuilders, for example.

Judging from those pics, that looks pretty much like how I squat. You're getting good depth (looking at the last pic). It looks like you're keeping your feet flat on the ground, which is good. Some people come up on their toes as they get to the bottom of the movement because they're not flexible enough. That's bad for various reasons, including being on your toes makes you more unstable.

The only suggestions I would make would be make sure that at the bottom of the movement your back isn't losing any of it's arch. I can't really see from the pics, but your arch looks pretty good.

You might to make/buy some sort of spotter bars, too.

My photo suggestions include 1) don't wear baggy clothing next time. Shorts and a t-shirt would let us see your form better. 2) include a direct side-view pic, and another side view pic with no weight on the bar (cuz the weight plates block our view of your form from the side).

Do you like that neck pad on the bar? My gym has one and when I use it it always feels like the bar is going to roll off.

And also, for some reason, people usually put the weights on the bar with the writing on the inside. I think they do this so that when you put more than one plate on a side it allows the entire rim of the outside plate to contact with the back of the inside plate and probably results in less rattling, shaking, and noise of plates vibrating against each other. It doesn't seem as "solid" with the writing on the outside. Try it, you'll see what I mean.

[Suntzu]

the rack has some sort of spotter bars(read: a set longer than the other but right now i really don't go that heavy.....

i keep my back pretty straight all the way down.... at the very bottem on some reps i feel a slight tuckin of my butt(no ghey sh!t).... i figure i went down too far.... i was concerned with the forward learn that i seem to have.... some pics i've seen online some folks are like str8 up and down.... while others are almost like a bent leg good morning.... i keep my feet flat....

gotcha on the clothing thing.... i just didn't want everyone to laff at my skinny-ness.... :D ... but that was just what i had on....

i never really gave a second thought on the plate thing....

[Suntzu]

oh..... and so far i never had an issue with the pad.... but without it it feels like the bar is slicing thru me...... yeah.. i'ma wuss *finger*

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Suntzu
the rack has some sort of spotter bars(read: a set longer than the other but right now i really don't go that heavy.....

Dude weight doesn't matter. One time I wasn't using spotter bars and I got stuck at the bottom with my warmup weight. I ended up having to roll over backward and drop the weight. Fortunately there weren't many people in the gym at the time to laugh at me.


i keep my back pretty straight all the way down.... at the very bottem on some reps i feel a slight tuckin of my butt(no ghey sh!t).... i figure i went down too far.... i was concerned with the forward learn that i seem to have.... some pics i've seen online some folks are like str8 up and down.... while others are almost like a bent leg good morning....

Like I said, there are different ways to squat. They're all "right" as long as you adhere to the basic squatting rules:

Head looking forward or up (not too far up tho, don't wanna strain your neck)
Back tightly arched the whole time*
Butt sticking out
Knees follow toes
Knees over toes
Feet flat on the floor
etc.



i keep my feet flat....

Good.

*a note about arching your back. I'm sure you know this already, but this is for the benefit of everyone. The term "to arch your back" is kind of confusing. Because basically, either way you bend your back could be interpreted as an arch.

Arching is sticking your butt out and pushing your stomach forward. It compresses the spine and is very strong and stable. This is the back position you should use when you squat, deadlift, and bench.

If you "round" your back (pulling your butt in), it looks more like an arch than it does when you actually "arch" your back, but is a very bad idea to do this when lifting weights. The spine elongates and is very weak and unprotected in this position. Lifting weights like this is a good way to go to the hospital and/or get permanent injuries.

So remember: when squatting, stick your ass out. It looks gay, but it's right.

[Ford Prefect]

Noticed the same thing with an arch. It doesn't seem too pronounced, but it's something to watch. Also, it looks like you are facing away from the rack when you are unracking the weight. I was always taught to face the rack, so when racking the weight again, you know exactly where the holders are. Once you start squatting heavier weights, any lean or unbalancing can lead to muscle pulls in your core. This happenned to me a couple years ago with only 250 lbs, so it's not like you have to be squatting a ton for it to have it happen to you.

I won't bring up the sissy pad. :p

[Suntzu]

i was facing away for the pic.... i face in otherwise....
Dude weight doesn't matter. One time I wasn't using spotter bars and I got stuck at the bottom with my warmup weight. noted....

[Arhat of Fury]

Sun-tzu

Form looks good to me. I usually go with my legs wider apart, but of course thats preference. Can any of you tell me what the differences or adv/ vs. disadv. of wide leg and narrower leg squats are.

On a side note- I always thought you were latin(duh) about a year ago I had told you that I saw you at a Cung Le's KB matches. Man I was way off.

anyway keep up the good work.

Arhat

[Suntzu]

it's all good.... my first fight people thought i was a middle easterner or something.... if only i COULD speak just a little bit of spanish and dance i would be dangerous... especially in San Jose :eek: :wink: :D
I usually go with my legs wider apart, but of course thats preference. Can any of you tell me what the differences or adv/ vs. disadv. of wide leg and narrower leg squats are. any wider than that i would get 'stuck' at a half squat... i had no more rande in my movement.... it took me about a week in a half to hit that groove consistantly.... as far at what muscle groups get hit the hardest or whatever?.... heck if i know..... yet anyway.... anotomy class starts next month...

[Ford Prefect]

Arhat, depends on how low you go and how much wider apart you mean.

[Pork Chop]

Gonna joke on you about the plate thing (you noob) next time I see yah, but then you'll joke on my hair, or lack thereof; so it's all good.

My squat's even worse than your's, so I'm really enjoying everyone's input.

Over the weekend of the 3rd, I was hanging with my cuz who competes in Oly lifting and is a biomechanical engineering phd student. He gave me a lot of help on my squat form.

Some guidelines he gave me that I didn't see reflected in the other posts:
hips lead knees- so sink your hips first and let your knees follow.
sit back on the weight as much as your balance allows (probably why box squats work so good).

For my case specifically, he advocated using 5 pound plates under the heels because of my bad ankle flexibility (especially my right one). My bad ankles were causing me to go on my toes, which is why I was always off balance doing squats.

I was kind of suprised to find out that squats weren't like the old horse stance mottos; ie: vertically straight back all the way down & tuck your bootie. In other words: it's okay to lean a little bit if your back has a good arch, and stick your bootie out.

[Arhat of Fury]

I will ususally go about horse stance(maybe a tad bit narrower) width with toes slightly pointin out and knees over toes formation.

I usually go right to 90 deg. Sometimes a tiny bit lower.

[Suntzu]

hips lead knees- so sink your hips first and let your knees follow. i'll take notice of that.... not quite sure how that works just reading it.... i'll see....
sit back on the weight as much as your balance allows (probably why box squats work so good). i FEEL more like i'm going straight down more than sitting back.... maybe i should post video.... when i figure out how....

[Pork Chop]

The hips/knees thing kinda relates to trying to squat with a vertical torso.

If you're trying to have a strictly vertical torso, you'll sink at your knees before your hips- usually leads to a "break" point before 90 degrees where you can't sink anymore without breaking the vertical plane and sinking your hips.

Sinking your hips before worrying about your knees seems like it keeps the motion more smooth and balanced.

I don't think you gotta worry about this problem so much, I just thought it was a nice little squat lesson that I learned, and figured someone else might find it useful.

edit: thinking about it, I think it also affects where your balance is on your feet- the first way your balance goes forward to your toes, whereas the second way it's kept mostly on your heels. Pushing through your toes = bad balance. Pushing through your heels = incorporating the posterior muscles & a more stable, balanced lift.

[FatherDog]

If you're seriously feeling cut into when you've got the bar on you for a squat without the pad, it might mean you need to work your traps a bit more.

Or it might just mean you're a sissy-boy. :D

[Suntzu]

Dog..... u might be right :D *finger*


BMB..... that edit helped out alot on that.... i'm cool than..... i think.....

see we have good info here every now and than....

[fa_jing]

I think if you seperate the feet apart a little more, and point your toes just a little ****her out, you can remain more vertical. In that respect, it is like the horse stance. It does look to me like you are bending over too much.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Suntzu
i was concerned with the forward learn that i seem to have.... some pics i've seen online some folks are like str8 up and down.... while others are almost like a bent leg good morning.... i keep my feet flat....

Powerlifting style will have a more pronounced lean. Your form looks good to me, although that's not how I squat. One point - I can't really tell by the pics, but I prefer wearing kung fu slippers to do my weights. I've just bought some Everlasts designed for indoor sport with minimal sole and they're not bad either. My old running shoes (Asics Kayano) were too cushy and had less "feeling". Kung fu slippers are great. I got the "no sole" tip from (Ford's hero ;)) Pavel.

How do I do them? Feet as wide as my power rack (wide horse stance). Toes out. Bar on top of my shoulder blades, not my neck. Narrow bar grip. Elbows pulled in and back (helps me arch). Inhale and tighten core. Lead with my bum, like I'm sitting in a chair. Tight arch. Look slightly upwards (like in pic 3 I'd be looking at the top left corner of the pic, not the roof). Knees in line with toes. Down to parallel. Contract glutes, quads and hammies maximally to start coming up. Concentrate on those and maintaining the back arch on the way up. Exhale near the top. Count roughly 212 (1 or 2 between reps).


Originally posted by Arhat of Fury
Can any of you tell me what the differences or adv/ vs. disadv. of wide leg and narrower leg squats are.

Less ROM with wide feet. More forward lean (therefore more load on lower back and core, maybe?). Able to lift heavier.

:o I'm also one of the sissies. I've never seen people squatting without a pad, so I've always used one :o. Guess I'll have to try without. I've always laughed at people who wear gloves, too.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
This happenned to me a couple years ago with only 250 lbs, so it's not like you have to be squatting a ton for it to have it happen to you.

250 isn't "only" for some of us :eek: :p :D

[rubthebuddha]

yeah it is. see:

"only once."

:D

[Vash]

I used to love the squat. Too bad I did it without a pad one time (at my high school, we had about 3" of towel duct-taped around the bar cuz ever'one was throwing huge weight around) and fugged up the vertebrae around the area the bar was sitting.
Anyway, not doing them again.

Plus, got a problem that is only exasperated by squats (bb and db), so I'm gonna stick to my physical therapy, stance training, and isolated legs lifts.

And I wear gloves!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Vash
I used to love the squat. Too bad I did it without a pad one time (at my high school, we had about 3" of towel duct-taped around the bar cuz ever'one was throwing huge weight around) and fugged up the vertebrae around the area the bar was sitting.

Ouch, seriously? I've never heard of anything like that happening before. What happened? Did it slip or something?

And I wish I could refer to a squat of 250lbs as "only 250lbs."

[Vash]

I think I stood up wrong. I was only using 225 (1x12). I was so used to having the extra padding and not feeling that cutting force, I must have over-corrected. Anyway, that fugged that spot up good. There are other ways to strengthen the legs/whole effing body. Just wish they were as fun as the squat.

At least I've still got the clean & press! Gonna have so much fun with that once I get healed. . . the possibilities . . .

Powerclean 0wNeS all other weight training techniques! ;) :eek: :D

[Pork Chop]

Just another quick FYI that I got from cuz.
He told me they only compete these days with snatch and clean & jerk. Told me clean & press was taken out of the (his) competition arena because of the stress on the back. If you've already got bad vertebrae, I would think the clean & jerk would make more sense; but in the end, it's whatever works for you.

[Suntzu]

I think if you seperate the feet apart a little more, and point your toes just a little ****her out, you can remain more vertical. In that respect, it is like the horse stance. tried many stances.... that's the only one that allowed that ROM.....
but I prefer wearing kung fu slippers to do my weights. i have other shoes that i normally use but they are dogged up.... i was trying to look flyy.....
I got the "no sole" tip from (Ford's hero ) Pavel. same here...
(like in pic 3 I'd be looking at the top left corner of the pic, not the roof). my buddy that was taking the pics makes me laff so i was trying not to look at him.....
And I wish I could refer to a squat of 250lbs as "only 250lbs." :eek: *quietly walks away*

[Ford Prefect]

Arhat,

In that case, the wider stance and going parellel will allow you to sit back more putting more of the load on your hamstrings and glutes and taking much of the emphasis off your quads. Powerlifters use this style of lifting because your hams and glutes are the strongest muscle groups in your body (hip extension) and allow you to handle greater loads. The reduced ROM obviously helps too.

Many athletic trainers will use this style of squatting as well because of the cross over to athletic activity. Sprinting and jumping are both forms of ham/glute dominant hip extension.

Sun,

Whether doing full squats or power squats you want to sit back as much as possible. You don't really ever want to sit down while squatting. This could lead to the afore-mentioned forward lean which shouldn't happen in either squatting style either. Not being able to sit back is most likely a hamstring sttrength deficiency. Doing some low box squats could clear this up.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Vash
I think I stood up wrong. I was only using 225 (1x12).

Is that one set of 12? In high school? ****. I'm out of college and I've never been able to do 12 reps with 225. I told you guys I'm weak. F'ing ectomorph legs.

[Arhat of Fury]

Ford,
Thats good to hear, being I am concentrating on overall leg strength, and quikness. My quads are big enough(for me) and In my opinion if I shed a little more weight on them, I could be quiker. I do leg presses to compensate for lack of hitting my quads on squats. No wonder my hams usually get the most sore.

I recently have gone to Pavel's strength training on my legs and and light bodybuilding techiniques on my upper body. Got keep it ripped for the ladies:) I find when I do strength training on my legs, I tend to get less sore, so I am able to go harder during training.
I'm 5'9 1/2" and 192LBS with about 12/14% body fat and am trying to shed some extra fat to get more quikness on my feet and with kicks.
I find as I get older its alot harder to lose weight like I used to.

I am still waint to get bit by a vampire

[Toby]

Originally posted by Suntzu
i have other shoes that i normally use but they are dogged up.... i was trying to look flyy.....

Lol! Don't worry, you looked fly!

[Vash]

Originally posted by IronFist


Is that one set of 12? In high school? ****. I'm out of college and I've never been able to do 12 reps with 225. I told you guys I'm weak. F'ing ectomorph legs.

Don't feel bad, man. It's my coaches fault. When I first started working out at school, we had to walk the squats competely out of the squat rack (usually a good 4-5 foot stroll), do our set, then walk it back in. We never had anyone hit over 400 like that.
I personally never did over 310 for one.

Now, these young whipper-snappers get 6-7 plates on each side, they get to have squat buckets to sit onto, and a computer program that plans out individual workouts.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
And also, for some reason, people usually put the weights on the bar with the writing on the inside. I think they do this so that when you put more than one plate on a side it allows the entire rim of the outside plate to contact with the back of the inside plate and probably results in less rattling, shaking, and noise of plates vibrating against each other. It doesn't seem as "solid" with the writing on the outside. Try it, you'll see what I mean.

yeah, I'm anal about that. Plates must have the writing facing the inside.

[Vash]

Indeed. That's what we did at school, so that's a habit I picked up.

Tends to pizz off a body you're working with when you say "dude, could you flip the plate on the right side?"