Endurance/strength training with WC

[Gangsterfist]

What are some endurance and strength training you guys do with your WC?

Right now I just have an ab wheel and some push up bars. I have also tried doing my taiji and WC forms with ankle/wrist weights.

For endurance I usually do stance training, like sit in a low horse or cat stance for as long as I can. I also do some cardio drills every now and again, like jogging in place and then dropping down to do 10 push ups and then repeat.

What are some good exercises out there that you guys practice? Do you practice your wing chun while you work out (like forms or drills with wieghts)?

Its winter time and I want to stay in shape this winter. Too cold to go outside so I will be doing this stuff indoors. Also I am not looking to build mass, just strength and endurance.

[Keng Geng]

That depends... do want the endurance and strengthening exercises to aid the Wing Chun, or is it simply because you feel WC doesn't provide an adequate "workout"?

If it's for supporting your Wing Chun, the best thing to do are the motions of Wing Chun itself. For example, weight lifting - use hand weights while doing your form.

Some of the exercises I do:
Stance training - about 8 stances.
Moving stance drilling
Punching with hand weights
Kicking with ankle weights
Holding positions with weights (the positions with extended arms)
Staff drilling
Bat Chum Do Drilling

Of course, these are only a few, and the most obvious.

[Gangsterfist]

I am mainly just trying to make my work outs more effecient by practicing wing chun at the same time, and make them more fun. Sometimes the hardest part of working out is I get bored doing the same thing over and over again.

I am just looking for some work out drills, and such that other people do to maybe change it up a bit.

I do not feel that strength is not needed in wc. I do however, believe it does help you out a lot. I would say flexibility and endurance are a bit more important than strength. I like to stay healthy though. And this year I have decided to abstaine from a lot of things to get in real good shape.

[LC-NYC]

1. Get rid of the Ab Wheel. There are better and safer ways to develop your Abdominal Strength. The Ab Wheel can cause knee injuries. Get an ab video. They have excellent routines.

2. Jump Rope for endurance. It's considered to be one of the best methods for cardiovascular endurance. Boxers jump rope all the time. You can jump rope in your home.

3. You can do calisthenics to develop strength without losing flexibility. When you do Calisthenics you tend to use a longer range of motion than when you do some weight training exercises. Look at Mat Fureys combat conditioning book.

4. Lop Sao, Chi Sao and Sparring can be an excellent tool to develop endurance and functional strength but it must be done the right way. Ask your instructor or another instructor for more details on this.

Good Luck with your training!

[Toby]

LC-NYC, I like the ab wheel. I don't see how it can cause knee injuries. I kneel on a pillow while doing it, but apart from a hard floor hurting the knees, I can't see an injury occurring. There's no way in the world I can do it on my toes yet, so that's not an option. I think it's an excellent exercise.

Gangsterfist, strength and endurance are two completely different things. You can't train both at the same time. E.g. I do powerlifting, which is generally < 5 reps with very heavy weights. If that was all I did, I'd have terrible endurance. E.g. at the moment I benchpress 20kg more than my weight for 5 reps, but I struggle to do 30 pushups. So you're looking at 2 different areas.

Anyway, for strength I do benchpress, squats, deadlifts and pullups. Low reps, heavy weight. 5 days a week. For grip strength I use Captains of Crush grippers and wrist rollers. 3 days a week. For abs I do Janda situps, weighted leg raises and the ab wheel. 3 days a week. Every few months I change up the exercises a bit for variety.

For endurance I jump rope daily, ride to uni daily and do Tabata protocol sprints twice a week. Also do a lot of endurance stuff at WC class. I've got a shoulder problem at the moment, but if I didn't, another good exercise would be hitting heavy bags and wallbags.

I don't like the idea of punching with weights. A lot of people don't. The problem is the danger of hyperextending the elbow. Also, the resistance is downwards whereas more realistic would be forwards resistance (like hitting bags).

[Brithlor]

I don't entirely agree with what the last poster said about weight punching.

You don't need to punch using 150 pound weights in order to get results so I see no danger of hyper extension...

But I do agree with the verticle punching, which is why I do punches from every angle to train each part of the punch (ie, on my back to train the pushing outwards motion of the strike).

[LC-NYC]

Toby,

I am not the first to say that the Ab Wheel can cause knee injuries. I don't think the Ab Wheel is an excellent ab exerciser. Infomercials would like you to believe that it is. However, don't take my word for it. Do some research for yourself. I also once believed that the Ab Wheel was an excellent tool until I found otherwise. I was a proud owner of one.

You hit the weights 5x a week? Wow.....
Is it really necessary? Are you working on the same muscle groups every day? If you are that's a mistake for numerous of reasons. Check out ACE for updated information on Weight Training. Do you think that your shoulder problem is related to your workout?

Toby regardless of what's preferred do take take of your shoulder! Find out what's wrong and do the neccesary stuff to fix it! Your shoulder is very important.

[Toby]

Brithlor, I'm not saying you need 150lb either. I'm not entirely sure of how it increases the danger of hyperextension, but I've heard it enough times to think it's worth a warning. My theory? It increases the momentum of your punches, so it's harder for you to stop at the end of the punch, leading to the possibility of hyperextension. I dunno if that's the case, but many people mention hyperextension. Maybe slow punches are alright, I don't know.

LC-NYC, I made my own ab wheel, so infomercials played no part in my purchase. I am interested in the knee injury comments, though. I'm not dismissing your warning, but I fail to see how my knees (which remain essentially static) can be injured. I will do some research sometime, but I'd be grateful if you provided some links etc.

Regarding weights, I follow the PTP training methods outlined in the book "Power to the People" by Pavel Tsatsouline. It's been discussed many times on the training and health forum, so you can find info there about it. Basically it's 2 sets of 4-6 reps per exercise, heavy weights, increase by 5lb/day on a short cycle (I go for 2 weeks/cycle). It follows Eastern European training methods. It provides a method for great strength gains with little (effectively none) training soreness or fatigue. What's ACE? My shoulder problem is related to my previous workouts (up until mid last year). I did too much weights then, lifting 3 times a week with a very hypertrophic workout (doing different muscle groups each day).

My shoulder has osteolysis (AC joint decays). Very common in weightlifters, apparently. I should give it complete rest for 6 months, but I've always been a bad patient. It isn't getting any worse and is a minor discomfort at worst. My lifting volume has actually gone down and provided I'm careful with my form (in weights and WC) it should be alright. Surgery is the treatment in bad cases, but my specialist says that will never be necessary in my case because of the idiosyncracies of my particular joint.

[Gangsterfist]

Here go some alternative ab work outs I found using google.

http://exercise.about.com/cs/abs/l/blabworkout.htm

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exercises.php?MainMuscle=Abdominals

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/267ab.jsp

Did not find any mention of the ab wheel being bad for the knees.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
1. Get rid of the Ab Wheel. There are better and safer ways to develop your Abdominal Strength. The Ab Wheel can cause knee injuries. Get an ab video. They have excellent routines.

I think the ab wheel is awesome. I agree that you can find more effective methods though.

Jump Rope for endurance. It's considered to be one of the best methods for cardiovascular endurance. Boxers jump rope all the time. You can jump rope in your home.

definitely.

You can do calisthenics to develop strength without losing flexibility. When you do Calisthenics you tend to use a longer range of motion than when you do some weight training exercises. Look at Mat Fureys combat conditioning book.

strength gain does not inhibit flexibility unless you don't stretch properly. That is a myth.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
You hit the weights 5x a week? Wow.....
Is it really necessary? Are you working on the same muscle groups every day? If you are that's a mistake for numerous of reasons. Check out ACE for updated information on Weight Training. Do you think that your shoulder problem is related to your workout?

proper strength training can indeed hit the same muscle every day. you are training the neurological system to cntract harder, producing more power. It can be done every day. I follow a similar program. His shoulder problem could be releated to overuse from a repetitive movement like punching, push ups, etc. I injured mine back when I was doing 200 pushups 3 days a week.

[Tom Kagan]

A punch or a kick with weights and high intensity heavy bag use are forms of ballistic training. They are extremely stressful to the joints, ligaments, and sinew and, thus, should be integrated into an overall periodized program where the intensity is cycled and the exercises are phased.


Many excellent exercises exist. Have you ever tried an uphill fireman's carry after your main workout? How about carrying two squirming and sleepy kids (80+ lbs) up three flights of stairs while wearing full winter regalia? :)

Within the Ving Tsun system, however, the forms themselves are your conditioning. I would go so far as to suggest that concentrating on the conditioning aspects should be the crux of any solo play.

For a beginner, holding a fully sunk and solid YiJiKimYeungMa while playing SiuNimTao for upward of 30 minutes or more is physically difficult and mentally challenging. Pivoting cleanly and sharply within ChumKiu without losing balance also offers its own set of difficulties.

For the intermediate practitioner, BiuJee at full intensity, especially repeating without rest, will get you breathing hard.

Clean and quick dummy training can do the same, but the intent of the dummy is a just a bit different, so it is not as important there. However, if you can actually manage to make the dummy "come to life," not only will you get a good workout, but you'll begin to peer into the mindset of just how crazy you have to be in order take an inate ability to hurt, maim, and kill and hone it into a true artform. :)


But, at this point, you've only just begun your training in the system. :eek: The most difficult conditioning within the Ving Tsun system is pole preparation - JinChoi (battle punch). Though some practice it high (they have their reasons which I'm going to sidestep for the moment), I mean doing it low - 90 degrees hip/knee angle or even a bit lower.

Even when done properly everyday for 6 months you will still be wobbling the next day. By that time, your hips should develop a nice stretch, too.

WARNING: JinChoi done incorrectly - easy to do when too tired - could leave you without the ability to walk. :( If you're lucky, you won't require a doctor to to repair your ACL and/or meniscus.

BiuKwan numbering into the thousands or any extreme short-sword work - GwaiMa included (better known in english as a "shoot" ;) ) - will be child's play if you can handle a full JinChoi cycle (about 80 meters up and back total).

Bored with solo Ving Tsun conditioning? I've found interval training to be very effective. Suicide runs with repeats will still make me nauseous, assuming I convince my lazy bones to do them properly when working out on my own. ;)

[AndrewS]

Toby,

nice workout.

Are you doing bench one day, squat the next, dl the next or all three lifts the same day? The former seems to miss a little of the whole PTP point (which is basically a form of GTG with doing the same lift daily), the latter might put you into overtraining.

Why are you benching, and why on a bad shoulder? Bench doesn't seem to yield much training benefit, and tightens the h*ll out of your shoulders. Have you considered doing bent presses instead of benching if you want to work the shoulder girdle. They may beat up your AC less.

Later,

Andrew

[Gangsterfist]

Tom-

Thanks for your reply. I am not a beginer, nor am I an advacned student of Ving Tsun. I am the gray area inbetween. I train both Taiji and WC now on a regular basis. Before that I trained in Okinawan Karate, TKD, and a little bit of akido.

I love the science behind wing chun. I want to develope to its fullest potential, which means hard work and dedication to this art. I do push ups, rocky balboas, crucnches, leg lifts, stance straining, and foot work forms.

I remember the yeejeekimyuma being a bit stressful at first, but now I find it kind of comforting.

What kind of conditioning have you guys done? Like iron fist type stuff? To strengthen your fist, wrist, fingers, etc to apply certain WC techniques properly and with out injuring yourself. Obviously if you do not condition certain parts of your body you could injur yourself while trying to apply them. I have done wrist and finger push ups to help strengthen my hands and wrists. Ever do chi sao with someone and their arms feel like steel, but they still have no tension? One of my sibaks has solid arms (not big and muscular but solid as stone) and when you spar him you hurt yourself attacking him. When he will ton sao an incoming punch it hurts your arm to hit against his. He is not using force at all, just his skeletal structure.

Hope that makes sense.

[Tom Kagan]

Whatever level you're at is okay. I'm just a beginner. Of, course, my Sifu used to say that maybe he was just a step or two ahead of me but that he was a beginner too.

I have several SiHing with the "arms of steel" feeling you mention, though many, including some with the "arms of steel" prefer to play more from the "arms of a ghost" side of the pendulum. The worst is the "arms of steel" on a SiHing with skinny forearms. "Arms of a blade" is a more apt description for him. :)


Within my training there came a point where I was working the dummy more and more until I started to realize I was hitting it a lot harder than I expected given the effort I was expending. I knew this was happening because my hands started to ache pretty much constantly. Considering that the primary intent of the dummy is not hand/arm conditioning (a sadistic friend with a Louisville Slugger is a lot cheaper), it was at this point where I really began to truly understand what is meant by a periodized training regimen which cycles ballistic exercises.

That's also about when I finally figured out how to use a SaoBao properly (thank goodness). :D

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah the only thing I could think of was the wooden dummy training as well. My Sibok is a skinny man with skinny arms of iron. I don't know if am expaling this exactly right but I think you got my point. One time I bui sao'd a punch he threw at me for a drill and it hurt my arm every time, and we were doing the drill slow.

That kind of conditioning makes your WC very effective. The other thing I could think of is forearm strikes on a giant pole or really heavy bag. You will see some choy lay fut practioners do this. Another sibok of mine sanded down a telephone pole outside his apartment building and does forearm strikes on it. This conditioning seems kind of brutal, but I believe if done properly can really help your kung fu out.

[LC-NYC]

I don't think that an Exercise Physiologist or Physical Therapist will advice some one to work the same muscle groups with weights 5 times a week in a row without the proper rest. Not for muscle growth or for the development of strength. I don't think that any top body builder in the world would advocate this! I'm sure Boxers and other top combative athletes don't hit the same muscle groups with weights 5x a week.

However if your interested in this subject I will sugest that you check out an Exercise Physiologist or a certified fitness trainer who has been certified by a reputable organization like ACE.

For the ab roller review:


I would check consumer reports but I can't go into there web site without paying.


I did find mixed reviews on this site http://www.fitnessinfomercialreview.com/
This seems to be a pretty cool site.

According to this site some will swear by it and others claim that it can lead to back injury or that it doesn't work for them. You make the final decision....

I just want to say that I never did get the abdominal work out that I expected from it anyway. And like I said, I read some bad reviews and decided to give it a rest. However, if it works for you and you do it safely then keep going....

According to ACE the ab roller is one of the most least effective tools to develop both the external and rectus abdominus. The basic crunch or even the use of a ball is more effective than the ab roller.....

For more info on Exercise Eguipment or Exercising Check out ACE.


The American Council on Exercise (ACE) is a nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting the benefits of physical activity and protecting consumers against unsafe and ineffective fitness products and instruction. As the nation’s workout watchdog, ACE conducts university-based research and testing that targets fitness products and trends. For more information on ACE and its programs visit ACE Web site at www.acefitness.org.

[Toby]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
No Exercise Physiologist/Specialist in anatomy and physiology/physical therapist in the world will tell you that it's right/safe/okay with weights to work the same muscle groups 5 times a week in a row without the proper rest. Not for muscle growth or for the development of strength. I don't think that any top body builder in the world would advocate this! Dorian Yates, Arnold, Mike Mentzer and etc. I'm sure Boxers and other top combative athletes don't hit the same muscle groups with weights 5x a week.

Maybe not in the Western world. But, no offence, I don't hold much faith in the opinions of many fitness people I meet. Besides, I'm not interested one bit in bodybuilding. I do strength training, which is a different thing altogether.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
For the Ab Roller Machine, I myself had strained one of my knees from it's usage. My Orthopedic Docter had told me that the
Ab Roller could be harmful to the muscles of the knee due to the combination of weight/movement/pressure and resistance that occurs. I don't have the time to find the exact sources where others have found the AB Roller a cause of injury but it's out there. Believe me or not......

Sure, I suppose it's feasible. Only thing I could imagine is the patella could be prone to injury since it could move while it has weight on it - lead to dislocation? Anyway, we've got hard floorboards, so I kneel on a pillow.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
Besides why waste your time on an exercise that was ranked as one of the most least (sic) effective tools to develop both the external and rectus abdominus. The basic crunch or even the use of a ball is more effective than the ab roller.....

I'd take the ab wheel over crunches anyday. But, it's not my only exercise. I only do it once a week for fun. My main ones are Janda situps and weighted leg raises. In the past, I've also done full-contact twists and one armed deadlifts.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
...ACE...

Well, I'm in Oz, so I have no access to an ACE "professional". As to their website, it seems like a generic health club type organisation that advocates Step, boxercise, cardio kickboxing, etc, etc. Everything I hate about health clubs.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Sevenstar
His shoulder problem could be releated to overuse from a repetitive movement like punching, push ups, etc. I injured mine back when I was doing 200 pushups 3 days a week.

Bingo. At the time, I was doing (as much as) bench, incline, decline multiple sets all to failure, wall bag, pushups and I'd also lie on my back and throw an 8kg medicine ball 6' up for 100 reps x 2/3 sets. My osteolysis is caused by "repetitive microtrauma" or (not in my case) a single large trauma injury according to the literature. What did you do to your shoulder?

[Toby]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Toby,

nice workout.

Are you doing bench one day, squat the next, dl the next or all three lifts the same day? The former seems to miss a little of the whole PTP point (which is basically a form of GTG with doing the same lift daily), the latter might put you into overtraining.

Why are you benching, and why on a bad shoulder? Bench doesn't seem to yield much training benefit, and tightens the h*ll out of your shoulders. Have you considered doing bent presses instead of benching if you want to work the shoulder girdle. They may beat up your AC less.

Later,

Andrew
Hi Andrew,

I do all three plus weighted pullups every weekday morning. I dunno about DL and squat on the same day, but I can't bring myself to sacrifice one. I probably should. I don't really overtrain. At the end of a week I'm a bit tired, but I never really get sore muscles. Nothing like a hypertrophic program, anyway. I get more tired from riding my bike and sprints.

I bench on a bad shoulder because my name's Toby and I'm an exercise addict :o. I've just always loved bench, and I can't really give it up. It's the only exercise I do for my "front". My specialist said that exercises I should avoid involve lifting the upper arm past horizontal. Bench is bad for osteolysis, but not nearly as bad as military presses (which I used to do). I used to do some bent presses as well, but gave them up in favour of my four exercise program.

If I was a good patient, I'd stop all weights and MA for 6 months or more. Osteolysis completely heals over a time period. However, the pain (a dull ache) is minimal and intermittent. E.g. I haven't felt any for a few weeks now. My current program is so low volume that it may allow recovery anyway. Before I was diagnosed, when it was at its worst, I was still able to lift PR's on bench, military press, etc without it affecting me, so it's (at its worst) a minor inconvenience. If it gets really bad, it just means my AC joint decays, and I always have the option of getting the bone cut off :eek: which is the option in bad cases (although the specialist told me that it's not an issue for me). I take fish oil and calcium for it and my GP told me I could take NSAID's, but I don't any more.

Phew, long post!

[Toby]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
I did find mixed reviews on this site http://www.fitnessinfomercialreview.com/
This seems to be a pretty cool site.

According to this site some will swear by it and others claim that it can lead to back injury or that it doesn't work for them. You make the final decision....


Sorry, but that's one of the worst sites I've seen. Here's some quotes from different ab products:

"the vertical lines down my abs and my little pooch (sic) is shrinking. It's rare to find an equipment that can effectively target the lower abs; this one works wonder with the lower abs"

"This product gets right to the areas that you want reduced and toned. It didn't take long to see an outline of my muscles."

"I started using the same ab slide and lost 1-2 pounds a day from it cause I have good genes."

OK, there's no such thing as "upper" or "lower" abs. There's one muscle, the rectus abdominus. For some reason, fitness "professionals" like to refer to this muscle as consisting of lower and upper abs. Can you work your lower and upper bicep?

Secondly, working abdominal muscles will not help these people develop a "6 pack". We all have a "6 pack", just some of us have a layer of fat covering it. The only thing that will make the rectus abdominus show is diet. Full stop.

Thirdly, exercises like the various ab exercises will not help you lose weight, like "1-2 pounds a day". Not unless you're morbidly obese and that's the only exercise you do. Diet, i.e. burning more calories than you ingest.

Utter rubbish. I hold no regard for any opinions I read there.

Regarding back injury, this is one thing that the ab wheel can cause. But that's the whole point of the exercise. Keep the stomach tight to protect the back. If you relax the stomach, a lot of weight goes on the lower back and you use it to hold yourself off the ground. Done properly, this doesn't happen.

[LC-NYC]

Toby,
I think that you have misunderstood me! The site is cool in the sense that it allows one to give their opinion about an exercise machine that they have used or own. I would rather hear what a consumer would say about a product instead of a paid sales representative or one individual.

If you know a site that's better than let me know.

If you know a better organization than the American Council on Exercise that provide information based on research also let me know....

My cup is not full.....

[Toby]

Dunno of any better sites. But looking at the front page, there's an ad for the machine called "6 Second Abs". The quote attached to it is:

"I have had 6 sec. abs for a little over a week now. I have lost 1/2 inch in lower abs!"

That pretty much says it all. I get your point about hearing objective reviews, but the reviewers are (pardon my French) ****ing morons. I wouldn't waste my time posting a review there myself, because it would only be read by morons. I'd rather read a biased review by an informed reviewer. At least I'd be able to hope that the product they're endorsing might be good if they use it.

Regarding ACE, I did find this:

http://www.acefitness.org./fitfacts/fitfacts_display.cfm?itemid=129

where they advocate the ab wheel exercise, although performed with a Swiss ball.

Apart from that, I find only general information. Nothing specific, or helpful. Basically, they seem like the local health club. Epitomised by "Larry Perlmutter" whose picture is on the front page. He says, "I carry stability balls, tubing, a BOSU, dumbbells and other equipment with me for my "Fitness to Go" clients." That's not the sort of training I'm interested in. That's like training for (no offence) kids, women and old people. People who need a personal trainer to help them work out. I'd imagine that the average MAist would have a higher level of fitness than that sort of training could provide.

As I said, I'm more into strength training, although I do some endurance work too. The sort of thing that these guys:

http://www.westside-barbell.com/

do. I'm not interested in the drugs that they take, but they have some good training ideas regarding strength. A couple of times in the articles it is mentioned that they train up to 14 sessions a week, which is far more than me. They are renowned as being the strongest gym in the world.

The weight program I'm doing is hawked by:

http://www.dragondoor.com/

Although the website's (obviously) biased, and so are his books (each one is filled with ads for his other products near the back :p), he has a lot of good ideas. Some of the guys who subscribe to his ideas are very strong. Works for them, works for me. I'm not particularly strong, but I'm considerably stronger than the average guy on the street, so I'm happy.

[Toby]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
If you know a better organization than the American Council on Exercise that provide information based on research also let me know....

My cup is not full.....
Nothing based on research, if by that you mean peer-reviewed academic journals and conferences like the sort of stuff I have to read at uni :p. But the Westside guys base their methods on results. You can't argue with their results. Check out the biography page.

As to Pavel's stuff, it may be academically written about in Eastern Europe, but I don't know of any papers. Lots of followers of his methods, though. The main reason I'm a fan is that it lets me develop very high strength (for me) while giving no soreness. It doesn't interfere with my MA at all, unlike my old weights program where hypertrophy made it difficult sometimes. The only downside is that strength gains fade quickly if you stop training. This is because (as Sevenstar said), a lot of the strength gains are neurological. Also, you don't increase muscle size, because the volume of weights is low. This is a positive for MA. After all, who wants to be as big as Sevenstar? :D j/k

[LC-NYC]

oooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Toby]

I read it, too ;). But I hope you can see that almost without exception, the reviewers are your average uninformed casual exerciser = moron. Lower and upper abs, toning lovehandles, showing 6 pack, blah, blah. Nothing any of them says teaches me anything, except that they know nothing. The sort of person who would buy stuff based on an infomercial. Just like I heard on the radio today how many people in Oz were "victims" of fraud due to the Nigerian e-mail scam and the (relatively new) Spanish lottery e-mail scam. I can't call them victims, they're morons.

Here ya go:

http://www.philkaplan.com/thefitnesstruth/abdominalexercises.htm
http://www.naturalmuscle.net/nm0102/abs.htm

Coupla sites with injury stuff. Both are about lower back injuries from the ab wheel. As I said, do them properly and it's not a problem.

The problem with looking for reviews about the ab wheel is by definition you have to find a review of a product. But the ab wheel isn't necessarily a product (I made mine from a wheelbarrow wheel, dowel and BMX handgrips). You need a review of the exercise performed. That's going to be impartial.

<edit>Oh, I see you deleted your post. That makes mine kind of irrelevant. Oh, well :p</edit>

[LC-NYC]

Okay I will check your sites tomorrow. No more for me tonight.............

[Toby]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
Okay, I don't have much time to spend on the internet. I rather spend it in the ring/gym. I think you're confused. I listed that site because some individuals stated that they felt that the ab roller can cause injuries. Maybe they don't know everything about strength training like you claim to know.

I don't claim to know everything about strength training. In fact, I know very little. But I know a lot more about it than the people on either site you posted. My point was, sure they may get injuries. Probably because they aren't doing it right.. Example: "I could use the Ab Slide for more than ten minutes a day but on the Ab Force I had to stop in just a little more than 5 because it just became too difficult." :rolleyes:


Originally posted by LC-NYC
However, why can't someone who is about to purchase an ab roller know that their is a potential for injury. What's wrong with that? Maybe they should call you and ask you!

Of course there's potential for injury. There's also potential for injury if I squat with a rounded back. There's potential for injury in pretty much all resistance training. You minimise the potential by doing the exercise properly. I'm saying that these people have nothing useful to contribute because they don't know what they're doing. Like the Ab Slide/Ab Force quote above.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
For the ACE. I think it's helpful for individuals who want to learn something about flexibility, endurance or strength training. You can disagree all you want but many trainers in USA seem to respect them.

ACE has nothing about strength. My old gym was full of trainers who were the same sort of people as the ACE people. All about general fitness. Most of their clientele were interested in stationary bikes, steppers, aerobics, Tae bo, Step, etc. Many trainers might not know better than to respect them. I don't have a problem with what they do. It's good for a lot of people. But it's not strength training, so I'll look elsewhere for my resources. If it was strength, they'd be talking about powerlifting and olympic lifting.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
For combat conditioning I would look into Mat Fureys book. And there are other resources that I would look into because I am an open minded individual.

I'm open minded too. That's why I read your infomercial link. Open minded doesn't mean I have to accept their garbage. As to Matt Furey, I've never read his stuff, but I've heard he's got some "interesting" ideas. Consensus is, check out:

http://www.trainforstrength.com/

instead. Maybe you should also check out the link to the guy's page who hosts the infomercial site:

http://www.leonardfitness.com/

I don't like some of his ideas, but he has some good info. He's tailored towards bodybuilding, though.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
Maybe your not from the U.S.. I don't know? Maybe your from a superior race that like to call everyone morons.
No, I'm not from the U.S. However, I only call people morons if they demonstrate certain traits. Like trying to review a product using blatant untruths.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
I wonder who the true moron really is?

Well for me I won't waste my time no more because I think that you are disrespectful.

Wow, you're getting really worked up about this aren't you? Relax. BTW, the first sign that someone's running out of intelligent argument is when they resort to personal attacks.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
I don't think that an Exercise Physiologist or Physical Therapist will advice some one to work the same muscle groups with weights 5 times a week in a row without the proper rest.

You are gettihgn proper rest. You aren't lifting to failure, doing high rep sets or anything of the like. you are lifting extremely heavey weight for about 5 reps, for two - three sets. It's not extremely taxing. My bench is close to 300 from using this method.

Not for muscle growth or for the development of strength. I don't think that any top body builder in the world would advocate this! I'm sure Boxers and other top combative athletes don't hit the same muscle groups with weights 5x a week.

you're right, not for body builders. They won't train that way as it is not conducive to what they want to do. They are trying to tax the muscles in order to make them bigger. This method will not add significant size, as you are training the neurological system - basically, you are teaching your muscles to contract harder and more explosively, enabling them to push more weight.

However if your interested in this subject I will sugest that you check out an Exercise Physiologist or a certified fitness trainer who has been certified by a reputable organization like ACE.

I'll do that tomorrow. And I'm working on getting NSCA certified myself, so eventually, people will be asking me.


According to this site some will swear by it and others claim that it can lead to back injury or that it doesn't work for them. You make the final decision....

I just want to say that I never did get the abdominal work out that I expected from it anyway. And like I said, I read some bad reviews and decided to give it a rest. However, if it works for you and you do it safely then keep going....

According to ACE the ab roller is one of the most least effective tools to develop both the external and rectus abdominus. The basic crunch or even the use of a ball is more effective than the ab roller.....

I agree that crunches are more effective. I still like the ab roller though - I've had the old school original one (the one that looks like a tire) since about 89, when my dad gave it to me. I don't use it as much anymore, but still like it. My judo coach loves it. (he too has the tire looking one.)

For more info on Exercise Eguipment or Exercising Check out ACE.

[Toby]

Why do you keep deleting your posts? It's very annoying :mad:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Toby

Nothing based on research, if by that you mean peer-reviewed academic journals and conferences like the sort of stuff I have to read at uni :p. But the Westside guys base their methods on results. You can't argue with their results. Check out the biography page.

I've heard alot of good things about that program.

As to Pavel's stuff, it may be academically written about in Eastern Europe, but I don't know of any papers. Lots of followers of his methods, though. The main reason I'm a fan is that it lets me develop very high strength (for me) while giving no soreness. It doesn't interfere with my MA at all, unlike my old weights program where hypertrophy made it difficult sometimes. The only downside is that strength gains fade quickly if you stop training. This is because (as Sevenstar said), a lot of the strength gains are neurological. Also, you don't increase muscle size, because the volume of weights is low.

Agreed.

This is a positive for MA. After all, who wants to be as big as Sevenstar? :D j/k


HEY!! Low blow! If I weren't so inflexible from lifting all those weights and getting hyooooge, I could sink that low and parry it. Ah well, blame it on football and my years of wanting to be a bodybuilder
:p :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Toby
Why do you keep deleting your posts? It's very annoying :mad:

huh?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Toby


Bingo. At the time, I was doing (as much as) bench, incline, decline multiple sets all to failure, wall bag, pushups and I'd also lie on my back and throw an 8kg medicine ball 6' up for 100 reps x 2/3 sets. My osteolysis is caused by "repetitive microtrauma" or (not in my case) a single large trauma injury according to the literature. What did you do to your shoulder?

to heal it? my friend is a physical therapist. he gave me some exercises to do.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
one hand pushups, knuckle pushups, running miles, skipping for hours, punching bricks walls to break my knuckles and allowing the calcium deposits to build up harder bone mass, standing there and getting my torso uppercutted and punched and kicked, smashing my arms against steel pipes, fighting stray dogs

no wait. people don't train like this in North America :D those crazy Hong Kong people....

Heh. That sounds about what I went though tonight....

1.5 hours of getting banged and bruised in judo - throwing, drilling, randori....

1 hour of drilling and rolling in bjj

1.5 hours of skipping rope, neck wrestling, neck wrestling with knees, 6 rounds of sparring, pad drills, etc. in muay thai. And, coincidentally, I was doing moving 3 star drills against a metal pillar before MT started...

[Toby]

Sorry 7*, I meant LC-NYC with the deletion thing. You got in before me - I was trying to reply to his post before my last long one. He kept posting stuff which I'd reply to, then deleting it before I even submitted a reply.

Regarding ab exercises, tried Janda situps? I love them. You've gotta do them right, though. I'm not bad at them now, but they're still killers. Problem with crunches and most ab exercises is the hip flexor recruitment. Jandas eliminate that. BTW, LC-NYC, Prof Janda is an academic with reviewed ideas ;).

Westside stuff looks good. It's a bit too hardcore for me, though. I don't have the time or equipment to do it. Maybe if I had access to a serious gym and some serious training partners. I don't know if you could do their sort of routine and still do MA, though. Too much work.

I was asking what you did to your shoulder. Thought it might've been similar to me, since it's apparently a common weightlifting injury. The first study to identify it had 40/41 cases being weightlifters.

God, you're quick with the replies.

Thanks for the backup, too ;).

[Redd]

Originally posted by Toby
That's not the sort of training I'm interested in. That's like training for (no offence) kids, women and old people. People who need a personal trainer to help them work out. I'd imagine that the average MAist would have a higher level of fitness than that sort of training could provide.

As I said, I'm more into strength training, although I do some endurance work too. The sort of thing that these guys:

http://www.westside-barbell.com/

Is anyone still wondering why so few "women and old people" are in Wing Chun?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Toby
I read it, too ;). But I hope you can see that almost without exception, the reviewers are your average uninformed casual exerciser = moron. Lower and upper abs, toning lovehandles, showing 6 pack, blah, blah. Nothing any of them says teaches me anything, except that they know nothing.

I hear ya on that one. Every time I hear a trainer mention upper and lower abs, I'm like "wtf, aren't you certified?":o :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Toby

Regarding ab exercises, tried Janda situps? I love them. You've gotta do them right, though. I'm not bad at them now, but they're still killers. Problem with crunches and most ab exercises is the hip flexor recruitment. Jandas eliminate that. BTW, LC-NYC, Prof Janda is an academic with reviewed ideas ;).

haven't done them in a while - Admittedly, I need to start doing them again.

I was asking what you did to your shoulder. Thought it might've been similar to me, since it's apparently a common weightlifting injury. The first study to identify it had 40/41 cases being weightlifters.

yeah, similar to yours.

God, you're quick with the replies.

That's what being a computer geek does for ya... My day job is sitting behind a desk updating a huge website, so I get plenty of practice. :)

Thanks for the backup, too ;).
;)

[Toby]

Originally posted by Redd
Is anyone still wondering why so few "women and old people" are in Wing Chun?
Yeah, it was a macho comment. But I was talking about from an exercise perspective, not a MA/WC perspective. I'm not trying to be sexist/agist, it's just a fact that "women and old people" are less likely to be into strength than youngish males. And since that was (way back when) one of the original poster's questions, that's what I was talking about. Women (in my experience) are most likely to join a gym or health club to "lose weight" through aerobic exercise and high rep/very low weight exercise, not to bodybuild, olympic or power lift. Almost without fail. There's nothing wrong with that. They just have different goals to me.

I have less experience with MA and the old/female/male ratios. I can say that at my kwoon, the ratio is about 1/3/50. Full respect to the 1 & 3, though. If they stick around, they tend to be just as serious as the 50. It's just realistic to assume that MA and the idea of beating one another up doesn't appeal so much to the old & female population. I know that I love getting beaten up (no funny looks, now :D). I like to see my weaknesses and realise how much I have to learn. My wife, however, isn't so impressed when I come home and can't eat dinner because my jaw is so sore I can't close it properly :p.

[LC-NYC]

Toby had spoken.....

I've got a shoulder problem at the moment
My osteolysis is caused by "repetitive microtrauma" or (not in my case) a single large trauma injury according to the literature.

I bench on a bad shoulder because my name's Toby and I'm an exercise addict

Bench is bad for osteolysis, but not nearly as bad as military presses (which I used to do).

If I was a good patient, I'd stop all weights and MA for 6 months or more.

for strength I do benchpress, squats, deadlifts and pullups. Low reps, heavy weight. 5 days a week. Pullups and a bad shoulder? Wow, Does it take a rocket scientist to find out that something is wrong with this picture?

Wow Toby. You also claimed that the people who gave their opinions on http://www.fitnessinfomercialreview.com/ where morons and that people who read this site where morons.

I said "This seems to be a pretty cool site." (seems) I never read all the reviews. However, I read where two individuals in particular said that they had years of experience exercising and felt that the ab roller caused back pain and etc. They may be morons but they sure where smart enough to stop when they new something was wrong.

Okay maybe this is not the best review that I can come up with at this time. However, Is it going to change my opinion? No, becuase unlike you Toby I listened to my medical professional advisers. But, I quess they are not good enough for you.....


Toby,
The American Council on Exercise (ACE), America’s Authority on Fitness, is a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting the benefits of physical activity and protecting consumers against unsafe and ineffective fitness products and instruction. As the nation’s “workout watchdog,” ACE sponsors university-based exercise science research and testing that targets fitness products and trends. ACE sets standards for fitness professionals and is the world’s largest nonprofit fitness certifying organization. For more information on ACE and its programs, call (800) 825-3636 or log onto the ACE Web site at www.acefitness.org

Toby if you know more than this organization than maybe you get a job with them and teach them.

As to their website, it seems like a generic health club type organisation that advocates Step, boxercise, cardio kickboxing, etc, etc. Okay Toby, If that's what you want to believe...


http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/abstudy_index.cfm
The ab roller is considerd to be one of the least effective abdominal device. This was determined by scientific research and not a muscle head, a strong man, a kid or an old lady. I didn't make this up!



All this just because.......
I just stated that the Ab Roller/ab wheel is known to cause injuries. I have used the ab roller for many years and sweared by it. However, I got injured and decided to stop using it. I based my decision due to talks with several physical therapists, my orthopedic doctor, other professionals and other individuals who stated that they also believed to suffer injuries from this device or have heard of someone getting injured. I am not telling anyone to stop. However, just be aware.

Yes every exercise and exercise machine has potential for injury. Some tell you and some you will find out when some people have died and then they decide to make a recall. I rather find out for myself the drawbacks of any equipment/exercise. This is the reason why I decided to participate in this post. I am no expert! I might be wrong. Everyone single professional I spoke with might be wrong........ Maybe the Master knows best? That's why I willing to listen and learn. I never called you a moron

I found the moron thing to be offensive. Maybe you didn't mean it that way. I don't know? Yes, I deleted some post becuase there where somet things that I said and I shouldn't of. I'm working on how to keep my cool. Especially when I feel that I am being called a moron for using 2 websites you happen to dislike. Maybe I should have gotten my orthopedic docter to join this forum. :confused:

Toby said............
I get your point about hearing objective reviews, but the reviewers are (pardon my French) ****ing morons. I wouldn't waste my time posting a review there myself, because it would only be read by morons.

the first sign that someone's running out of intelligent argument is when they resort to personal attacks. These are your words Toby... I never attempted to attack you or avoid your views. In fact I taught we was having a good conversation until the moron statement. I was hoping I can learn something. Maybe you didn't mean it that way. I don't know? Too bad ...Something Wing Chun does not need in this point of time..........Friendship should be embracced not.......

[Toby]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
Pullups and a bad shoulder? Wow, Does it take a rocket scientist to find out that something is wrong with this picture?

Wow Toby. You also claimed that the people who gave their opinions on http://www.fitnessinfomercialreview.com/ where morons and that people who read this site where morons.

I said "This seems to be a pretty cool site." (seems) I never read all the reviews. However, I read where two individuals in particular said that they had years of experience exercising and felt that the ab roller caused back pain and etc. They may be morons but they sure where smart enough to stop when they new something was wrong.

I know that I have a bad shoulder. I had it diagnosed. I know the causes, symptoms and treatments. I'm making an informed judgement to continue exercising. My specialist told me I could as long as I was careful. I cut my workload significantly and eliminated a lot of exercises and at the moment I'm doing fine. I may not be making the right decision, but I know what I'm doing.

I didn't read all the reviews either. But from the first one I found I was :rolleyes:. The people who posted with back pain I'm guessing didn't know what caused it, otherwise it wouldn't have happened. You have to tighten your core to prevent your lower back taking up the load. Obviously if you relax your core while doing the exercise, you will hurt your back. The answer isn't to say, "Oh, that hurts. I'm going to stop." It would be, "Oh, that hurts - why? Am I doing it right, or wrong? Maybe I need to do some research?".


Originally posted by LC-NYC
Okay maybe this is not the best review that I can come up with at this time. However, Is it going to change my opinion? No, becuase unlike you Toby I listened to my medical professional advisers. But, I quess they are not good enough for you...

I listened to mine, too. See above. But all the reviews talked about back pain (as you pointed out). I thought you were warning about knee injury?


Originally posted by LC-NYC
Toby,
The American Council on Exercise (ACE), America’s Authority on Fitness, is a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting the benefits of physical activity and protecting consumers against unsafe and ineffective fitness products and instruction. As the nation’s “workout watchdog,” ACE sponsors university-based exercise science research and testing that targets fitness products and trends. ACE sets standards for fitness professionals and is the world’s largest nonprofit fitness certifying organization. For more information on ACE and its programs, call (800) 825-3636 or log onto the ACE Web site at www.acefitness.org

Toby if you know more than this organization than maybe you get a job with them and teach them.

Nice words. You should get a job in their marketing dept. My old gym was at my university. I trained there for 5 years. Every trainer that worked there was either in their final year of a 4 year "Human Movement" degree or a graduate of that course. Not a single one of the dozens that I knew did any serious lifting. I myself am a postgraduate student. There is a lot of rubbish in the literature that I read (mine included :p). Just because something is non-profit or university-based, etc doesn't mean it's correct.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
As to their website, it seems like a generic health club type organisation that advocates Step, boxercise, cardio kickboxing, etc, etc. Okay Toby, If that's what you want to believe...

Today's ACE Fitness Success Story is Marilyn Pick. I don't think that underneath the makeup and big hair a powerlifter lurks. These sort of people don't inspire me to get strong. I don't think that they have any relevance to serious lifters or MAists. Have a look in their discussion forums. Not much there. They cater to beginners. Most popular strength training thread? http://acefitness.infopop.net/3/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=799290654&f=139290384&m=4942935174
"What I've learnt ..." and "i too was taught ...". They don't know anything. All theory. I know that I don't want someone spotting me who can only lift 10% of what I'm benching, which is "What I've learnt ...". So if I was benching 250lb, all I need is someone who can lift 25? Please :rolleyes: I want someone who can at least deadlift the 250 off me if need be.

OK, I just noticed there's a different pic link each time you reload the home page. Now I just read about "Norma Shechtman, the 2003 ACE Group Fitness Instructor of the Year" who teaches "total body conditioning classes with Step as well as Pilates, indoor cycling and Trekking classes."

One more reload and I found Chris Freytag. Hmm, maybe I'll change my mind about ACE. Wouldn't mind her as my personal trainer. She's a "lifestyle consultant" with a show on ShopNBC. She teaches yoga and pilates. She's also got a video out - "Each 10 minute segment addresses something different - toning, cardio, Pilates and Yoga. You can do just 10 minutes on a hectic day or do all 50 minutes for a great cross training workout." Sounds peachy. I'll be sure to integrate that into my workouts.

I'd like to think the ACE consisted of mostly people like 7*, but I don't. That's not the image they portray, anyway. If I was an overweight couch potato who did no fitness work, I might be interested. But they don't cater to my (nor I'd guess most others on this board's) needs.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/abstudy_index.cfm
The ab roller is considerd to be one of the least effective abdominal device. This was determined by scientific research and not a muscle head, a strong man, a kid or an old lady. I didn't make this up!

As far as the article goes, it's very unprofessional. Hardly scientific research. No data, just vague comparisons. Then, on http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/abstudy_top.cfm which supposedly has all the exercises in the study, the ab wheel isn't mentioned :confused:. The article would never be accepted as a scientific paper. I'll defer my judgement just yet.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
All this just because.......
I just stated that the Ab Roller/ab wheel is known to cause injuries. I have used the ab roller for many years and sweared by it. However, I got injured and decided to stop using it. I based my decision due to talks with several physical therapists, my orthopedic doctor, other professionals and other individuals who stated that they also believed to suffer injuries from this device or have heard of someone getting injured. I am not telling anyone to stop. However, just be aware.

I also know of people who've been injured deadlifting and squatting. Not going to make me stop either of them, although I view them as infinitely more dangerous than an ab wheel. But I appreciate the warning and (believe it or not) I'm taking it on board. I still maintain, though, that doing it right presents no danger of back injury. And I can't see how the knees can get injured, apart from dislocating the patella while it's floating.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
I never called you a moron

I found the moron thing to be offensive. Maybe you didn't mean it that way. I don't know? Yes, I deleted some post becuase there where somet things that I said and I shouldn't of. I'm working on how to keep my cool. Especially when I feel that I am being called a moron for using 2 websites you happen to dislike.

Neither did I call you one. You've obviously read my comments as saying that I thought you were a moron. Let me state now, that wasn't and isn't my intention. As I said before, I read the website too ;). It's just that it presents no information. It is like watching an informercial itself. The reviews are meaningless because the reviewers spout untruths. BTW, don't delete posts for my sake. I worked in the mining industry for many years and there's not much that will shock or offend me. Get as personal as you want. Doesn't bother me.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
Maybe I should have gotten my orthopedic docter to join this forum. :confused:

That'd be cool. I don't know of any doctors on the forum. It would be good to hear a medical point of view every now and then.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
The rest of your post ... See above. I wasn't calling you a moron. My intention was (and is) to point out that the site was useless. And to mention that as far as heavy lifting is concerned, ACE is (as much as I've read on their website) useless too.

Sigh ... arguing is such a waste of time. Fun, though.

[Gangsterfist]

Okay lets get this thread back on topic.

What training for strength/endurance/conditioning helps your Ving Tsun?

Do you incorporate into your WC? If yes how so? Doing drills? Form work? Sparring? Wooden dummy? Iron palm/fist training?

I am looking for things that would not just get me back in shape, build strength and endurance. I am looking for things that do that but would be very benefical to someone who practices kung fu.

[SevenStar]

check out www.trainforstrength.com

also, look into Power to the People, by Pavel Tsatsouline.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Okay lets get this thread back on topic.

What training for strength/endurance/conditioning helps your Ving Tsun?

Do you incorporate into your WC? If yes how so? Doing drills? Form work? Sparring? Wooden dummy? Iron palm/fist training?

I am looking for things that would not just get me back in shape, build strength and endurance. I am looking for things that do that but would be very benefical to someone who practices kung fu. Sorry, my fault :o :o.

Like I said, powerlifting for strength. Also, http://www.trainforstrength.com/Endurance1.shtml for endurance. Don't incorporate either into my WC. But there's lots of carryover. I never stop to rest before my partner does - never. Also, my strength makes up for the many weaknesses in my skill. To benefit my kung fu I do - kung fu.

[Gangsterfist]

cool thanks for the replies.

I found that conditioning is most benefical. The ability to take and hit and not freeze up, not get knocked out, and not get that hurt. However, that is probably for another thread.

[AndrewS]

Toby,

since you asked for word from one of the MD's on the forum, I'll chime in (I'm an Internal Medicine doc, doing inpatient and critical care).

I use an old school ab wheel. Used properly, guarding the back with the abs, it's a great tool. Used improperly, it'll thrash your back. I've never heard of knee injuries from its use, can't logically put together how one would occur, and have never heard of this from the numerous personal trainers I count among my friends (several of whom train clients using the old-school wheel).

I'm not a fan of benching, but if you're keeping your reps low and are careful of pain, it's your gamble. Again, you might want to look at side press or bent press, as the bench is notoriously rough on the shoulders. Consider doing something ballistic in there. When you look at the lower extremity, degenerative joint disease is most common in the hip, least common in the ankle. One theory around this is that the ballistic loading of the ankle promotes cartilage growth. Add to this that the lowest injury rates among competetive athletes are among Olympic lifters (haven't seen breakdown on them by joint, though), and it might be worth throwing some gentle swings, snatches, or C & Js in there (careful with the latter).

There is a growing breadth of evidence that resistance training is a very good thing in degenerative joint disease (and many other conditions). I believe I've seen at least one study that shows reversal of degenerative changes in resistance trained adults, but I'd have to go hunt that down to double check.

IMO, repetitive motion, especially in a fatigued state, when you've blow out stabilizers, is what grinds away at joints. I never do more than 50 of any motion without a rest or change, and usually keep to 20.

I've read most of Pavel's material, Tudor Bompa's stuff, a good bit of coaching and strength training literature, and know the physiology that backs this stuff. I'm a huge fan of the Eastern European sport science which has been becoming popular lately. A nice summary of the primary literature is Tom Kurz's 'Science of Sports Training'.

Personally, I've done straight PTP regimens, the 'bear', silly amounts of BWE, kettlebells, and some of Polonquin's stuff, and count all of it as valuable portions of my periodized training approach.

There's some d*mn useful science out there.

Andrew

[LC-NYC]

Andrew- Anything is possible in terms or sport/exercise related injuries.

I said something before assuming you wasn't a real doctor. Anyway, I deleted it. I want you to know that I am a respectable individual.


I have a background in Occupational Therapy, and have worked with Occupational Therapists, Physical Therapists, Certified Hand Specialists, Exercise Physiologists and other rehab specialists. All will agree that there is always a possibility for injury with any exercise device.

- Anything is possible! This doesn't mean that you should live in a bubble or take drugs because you're going to die anyway.

So I shared with the public that I hurt one of my knees with an ab wheel. Why would I make something up like this? Maybe it was the new mat that I used. It could of been a mutiple of things. ...... My Orthopedic Docter told me that the brusing was due to the amount of stress I placed on the knee during the exercise. Yeah..... I made this up!

I made the story up so that I could start selling a new product. The NYC belly dance ball. Turn your T.V. on it's gonna be on QVC channel today. The Ukrainian Bear who lift's bears in Ukraine is going to demonstrate how it works.

Toby- You see only what you want to see..... It's funny how you like to twist things around.

During the ACE research the AB Roller was a stick with a wheel in the middle. I don't know what you read.
Yes some sites will show the AB Rocker as the AB Roller. However, in this study the AB Roller was the stick with wheels.




These where the Results:

I won't give you the website since you will twist this up toooooooo.



Best to worst exercises for strengthening the rectus abdominus:

1. Bicycle maneuver
2. Captain?s chair
3. Crunches on exercise ball
4. Vertical leg crunch
5. Torso Track
6. Long arm crunch
7. Reverse crunch
8. Crunch with heel push
9. Ab Roller
10. Hover
11. Traditional crunch
12. Exercise tubing pull
13. Ab Rocker

Best to worst exercises for strengthening the obliques:

1. Captain?s chair
2. Bicycle maneuver
3. Reverse crunch
4. Hover
5. Vertical leg crunch

6. Crunch on exercise ball
7. Torso Track
8. Crunch with heel push
9. Long arm crunch
10. Ab Roller
11. Traditional crunch
12. Exercise tubing pull
13. Ab Rocker

This is the last time I ever want to hear about a stick and a wheel!

No more ab wheels toby! :D I am sick of reading about ab wheels! I am going to brake mine today! I don't want to see one no more!

Let's get back to the more advance stuff like powerlifting. Sorry! I meant Endurance and Strength Training in Wing Chun...;)

[IronFist]

omg this thread is hilarious. I can't believe I missed it before.

Anyway, Toby, nice job laying down the correct. SevenStar, nice job helping him to lay down the correct.

LC-NYC, I believe you that you hurt your knee doing ab roller. I can see how it's possible. Sometimes if I'm doing it on a hard floor I'll put a pad under my knees. But you need to realize that having a personal training certification means nothing. I see trainers all the time saying things that are wrong, showing exercises wrong, etc. Remember, everyone used to think the sun went around the Earth. Just because everyone, or because popular organizations or whoever say something is true doesn't make it so.

For example, many, many books talk about "upper ab" and "lower ab" exercises, like you can isolate what part of your abs you are working. But if you do research into this you will learn that the abs are actually ONE muscle, and then you will also learn that when a muscle contracts either the whole thing contracts or none of it contracts. Therefore, it is impossible to work you "upper abs" or "lower abs." Either you are working your entire rectus abdominus or you are not working it at all. I'm not trying to lecture here, I'm just giving you of an example of a popular, widespread idea that is completely wrong.

[WCis4me]

Ok, I was confused as well as to how someone could hurt their knee when using the ab roller. Is it that you were doing it from a kneeling position? Because then I could totally see how the site and yourself wouldn't see it as useful or even possibly harmful to the knees.

Looking at the two clips on the left hand side of this page, I am not sure how you would hurt a knee. Or how it wouldn't be an asset to an ab workout. (of course that is if you can do it like in these clips and not everyone can).

sample of ab roller (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp)

Of course I am absolutely not experienced on a professional level with fitness training or with medicine, but I have pretty good common sense and the knee thing did have me a bit perplexed.

Vicky

[WCis4me]

Therefore, it is impossible to work you "upper abs" or "lower abs." Either you are working your entire rectus abdominus or you are not working it at all.

Well there goes my 'pretty good common sense' theory.

I seriously believed the upper and lower ab thing. Dang! And now that you wrote that it makes total sense.

<<<wcis4me retreats to her familiar and rightful place at the back of the class, dunce cap in hand>>>

[LC-NYC]

Ironfist, ACE is not a personel trainer.
I don't believe what anyone tells me either. I don't believe infomercials. I don't believe every personel trainer I meet. I don't even believe every doctor I see. I don't believe what every kung fu teacher tells me.

However, I do believe in science, studies and research. There are professionals that will know more information about a subject than others. There are those Doctors, Teachers and other professionals and etc. that do know what they are talking about. They have something to teach, share and show. We all have to believe something..... I believe my Doctor when he gives me advice.....

Look....

Gangster Fist posted a question about endurance and strentgh training. I think that he was talking about various ways of developing endurance in the home. I don't know how much he knows. I taught maybe he can get some sound advice from an organization like ACE. Maybe I should of used a website where individuals use steriods. Maybe I should of sent him to my neighborhood gym where many give wrong informantion and use horrible techniques. Or maybe the gym where you have to be ready to fight. There are all types of gyms in NYC. I don't know? I was just trying to do the right thing.

I know grapplers who learned about nutrition and exercising from ACE. They even got certified by ACE as personnel fitness trainers. They seem like they know their stuff. They have excellent endurance and etc.

Yes! I questioned Toby 5x a day workout. He said he had a shoulder injury. I was concern. Isn't that what martial art brothers suppose to do?


Yes there might be organizations/books/schools and etc. that are as good or even better than the mass amount of researched information one can get form ACE. It all depends on what you want to learn/know about.

First it was the stick with wheels,
Now it's the ACE thing....:eek:

[Toby]

AndrewS, thank you very much for an informed and articulate reply. Refreshing.



Originally posted by LC-NYC
I have a background in Occupational Therapy, and have worked with Occupational Therapists, Physical Therapists, Certified Hand Specialists, Exercise Physiologists and other rehab specialists. All will agree that there is always a possibility for injury with any exercise device.
Better not use any exercise device, then.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
So I shared with the public that I hurt one of my knees with an ab wheel. Why would I make something up like this? Maybe it was the new mat that I used. It could of been a mutiple of things. ...... My Orthopedic Docter told me that the brusing was due to the amount of stress I placed on the knee during the exercise. Yeah..... I made this up!
Wearing shorts, doing it on concrete floors? Otherwise, I'm still mystified. By all means, share info. Do you have unusually heavy calves, thighs or shoes that would cause load on your knees? As I said, I kneel on a pillow because we've got floorboards. Sure, I'm a wuss, but it works for me.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
I won't give you the website since you will twist this up toooooooo.
Give me the website. If I promise nicely not to twist it up? Pleeease.

Could it be this one:
http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/abstudy_index.cfm
or this one, which looks promising:
http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/abstudy_study.cfm
but then it's downhill again to this one:
http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/abstudy_results.cfm
or this one, where I'm told I should be doing 5 min of ab exercise daily:
http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/abstudy_bottomline.cfm
or is it this one, where the ab roller has mysteriously disappeared from the list of exercises:
http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/abstudy_top.cfm
Maybe they got it confused with the Ab Rocker: "Just sit on the Ab Rocker grab the adjustable toning bars in each hand and rock back and forth as you tone your abdominals." Toning bars? Wtf? Tone your abdominals?

At the end of the day, I don't think the ab roller is the best exercise for my abs either. Just another weapon in my fitness arsenal. I don't think it recruits the hip flexors as much as a lot of other ab exercises, so I like it. It would never be my one and only exercise, though. Just defending its reputation. But it's been funny to see how worked up you get.


Iron - yeah, it's funny. But I've wasted sooo much time on it. And to no avail. Some good stuff in here, though.


WCis4me - yeah the standing rollouts (from your link) are hardcore. I'm way off doing those. Most mortals do them on their knees. Lol at the lower and upper abs stuff. Like Iron said, it's a common mistake.

[Toby]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
Ironfist, ACE is not a personel trainer.
I don't believe what anyone tells me either. I don't believe infomercials. I don't believe every personel trainer I meet. I don't even believe every doctor I see. I don't believe what every kung fu teacher tells me.

However, I do believe in science, studies and research. There are professionals that will know more information about a subject than others.

So why dismiss AndrewS so quickly? He showed IMHO a high level of knowledge and intelligence, yet you wrote him off.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
Gangster Fist posted a question about endurance and strentgh training. I think that he was talking about various ways of developing endurance in the home. I don't know how much he knows. I taught maybe he can get some sound advice from an organization like ACE. Maybe I should of used a website where individuals use steriods. Maybe I should of sent him to my neighborhood gym where many give wrong informantion and use horrible techniques. Or maybe the gym where you have to be ready to fight. There are all types of gyms in NYC. I don't know? I was just trying to do the right thing. Westside is the strongest gym in the world. The question was about strength. Gangsterfist can do their workout at home (or his local gym, if they let him). Scrapper has some excellent strength and endurance stuff. 7* and I gave a link. ACE has nothing (IMHO) for a MA who wants an edge.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
Yes there are other organizations/books/schools and etc. that are as good or even better than ACE. It all depends on what you want to learn/know about. Really? So there are people are there who can train me as well as Marilyn Pick? Thank (insert favourite deity)!

[LC-NYC]

WCis4me - it happen during the kneeling position. I did at one time consider the wheel to be a great device. However, I decided to stop using it. There are better ways of developing the abdominal area/strength.

My knee totally healed. It was just I minor bruise. It was most likely the padding I used that particular day.

I made a mistake in this forum. I should of said be careful when using the ab wheel.

If I want I can get another ab wheel. However, I broke the one I had becuase of Toby. I can still use an ab- wheel! I doubt it will ever happen again. I will just make sure that I use the proper padding on the floor.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by WCis4me
sample of ab roller (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp)


Doing it from your feet like that is pretty advanced. Everyone starts out doing it from their knees. That's what I was talking about.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by WCis4me


Well there goes my 'pretty good common sense' theory.

I seriously believed the upper and lower ab thing. Dang! And now that you wrote that it makes total sense.

Don't feel bad. A lot of people still believe the upper/lower ab thing. One time I saw an infomercial that had a 3D computer drawing of the abs, and it showed them as six seperate muscles!!! That was so wrong I was shocked!

Just so you know, if you ever get into a discussion about abs with someone and you mention that it's one muscle and there's no upper/lower, they might try to argue with you, insisting that their friend who is "a huge bodybuilder" or their personal trainer says otherwise. Just remember, anatomy books will back you up.

[Toby]

So when you said, "The Ab Wheel can cause knee injuries" you meant you got a little bruise from a hard floor? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry you broke your old ab wheel. You really need to work at anger management. It's an internet forum :rolleyes:. No need to get so upset. Actually, I find it hilarious that you did that. I'm gunna make that my first ever (on any forum) signature quote. Congrats!

Wanna talk endurance? Oh, I see you edited your post to remove that part :rolleyes:

Anyway, (again):

http://www.trainforstrength.com/Endurance1.shtml

or maybe:

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/251run.jsp

Doesn't have to be running, although that's my poison. You might like bag work, burpees, rowing machine, bike, whatever you feel is of benefit. Obviously some will carry over to WC better than others. Just stick to the interval idea, regardless of exercise. Also (related to the first link) look up "Tabata protocol" on google.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
Ironfist, ACE is not a personel trainer.

I know. But they have their manuals and such, and that's what I'm referring to.


I know grapplers who learned about nutrition and exercising from ACE. They even got certified by ACE as personnel fitness trainers. They seem like they know their stuff. They have excellent endurance and etc.

I know a lot of people who "seem like they know their stuff" but don't. Just cuz someone is in good shape doesn't mean they are knowledgable.


Yes! I questioned Toby 5x a day workout. He said he had a shoulder injury. I was concern. Isn't that what martial art brothers suppose to do?

It's cool. Most people freak out when they hear about people doing the same lifts 5 days a week. This concept is not very mainstream and therefore a lot of people don't know of it or understand it. But if you have a general understanding of exercise, once you find out that it's only 2 sets of 5 with a lot of rest between them, you'll realize that it's fine and not overly taxing on the body or anything.

btw, those lists of "most effective ab exercises" were the dumbest things I've ever seen. No offence to you. btw it's funny that most of those exercises are designed to be done in high reps thus increasing endurance, but yet the list was titled "exercises to strengthen the abs." None of them will increase "strength," or the ability to move a lot of weight once. I know it's just semantics, but generally speaking, strength and endurance are different. If I can do 50 situps and then I increase my max to 100 situps I haven't really gotten any "stronger." But if I can bench 100lbs once and then I increase to 110lbs once, I have gotten stronger.

[IronFist]

Poor GangsterFist's thread got hijacked. Sorry dude.

[LC-NYC]

Toby - I get the feeling that you are having fun! You probly got Andrew into this. I don't know if he really is a doctor? Too many pranksters on the internet. He does appear to know about resistance training and etc....

If he is a Doctor than no disrespect too him. I have a lot of respect for health care workers! They are the people we count on when something goes wrong This is no joke and B.S. to the side!


And NO00000000000000
I don't dismiss Andrew. I think that he provided great information. You should take his advice! He mention some really interesting stuff. I will check out the resources that he mentioned.


I am honestly surprise to hear from him that the knee injury is not logically possible. I quess there is a first time for everything......


Okay everyone I am finish with this subject....... . I don't care anymore................ Toby find somone else you can have fun with...... I hope your happy! You took away time from my sleep.

Ironfist- Those grapplers I spoke started with ACE. They are not your average sport oriented grapplers. It doesn't matter anyway. Personal trainers don't mean anything here! Every body seems to know more than them.

Toby- Tell me what you think about the NYC Belly Buster device..... I hope it can replace the wagon wheel with a stick. I made it out of Steel........
Especially made for Immortals.....;)

My apology to GangsterFist!

[Toby]

Lol at the hijacking! Sorry Gangsterfist.

LC-NYC - sure I'm having fun. But my primary motivation was to ensure proper information was presented. BTW, you're giving me more gold for my signature file. Sorry, I don't know AndrewS. But he's my kind of poster. You did write him off, though:


Andrew you are an Internal Medicine Physician. I would never see an Internal Medicine Physician for an knee injury or sports related injury. Would you go to a podiatrist to perform a CABG.

Iron - why can't I post succinctly like you. You always have good examples and don't get caught up in crappy arguments like I do :( :p

[Toby]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
It doesn't matter anyway. Personal trainers don't mean anything here! Every body seems to know more than them.

You're right. Personal trainers don't, unless they demonstrate they know what they're talking about. Like the personal trainers on that ACE strength forum that I linked where they all said (paraphrasing) "I've been taught you only need to be able to lift 10% of what a benchpresser is lifting to spot them". Gimme a break!

BTW, you edited your last post again :mad:. I wanted to quote the bit about always think of me when you see an ab wheel or whatever it was :p.

[WCis4me]

LC-NYC wrote:
My knee totally healed. It was just I minor bruise. It was most likely the padding I used that particular day.
Ok my bad, I thought you were talking about a knee injury such as cartilage or bone etc. Minor bruising makes sense, but that could happen even without excersing, for example falling on slippery steps or walking into the corner of the coffee table (yup I am a clutz).


Iron Fist wrote:
Doing it from your feet like that is pretty advanced. Everyone starts out doing it from their knees. That's what I was talking about.
Ahhhhhhhh, see I didn't know that. In my limited experience I have only seen the guys I know do it from the standing position and those that tried to do it from standing but can't and so don't bother with it. I can't do it that way for sure, would kill myself lol.
Now that I know there is another way I will get him to show me to do it properly from the knees and check it out.

Thanks to LC for the reply, and to Toby and Ironfist for being generous and kind in their responses to not make me feel like an idiot.

As for the thread itself I have learned alot and got a lot of different and good ideas for various endurance and strength training. While I am a long way off from Toby's and other's routines I have some good ideas about where I want to go. I can't give a lot of input as the WC training/practicing (seems like enough in my opinion so far), the regular cardio stuff and pilates (have to have some variation wc is still better IMO) is about the extent of my workout experience so far.

Vicky

[LC-NYC]

Toby said..........

My proper motivation was to ensure proper information was presented.

Toby's Words.............

1. I do powerlifting, which is generally < 5 reps with very heavy weights. (the same muscle groups)


2. at the moment I benchpress 20kg more than my weight for 5 reps, but I struggle to do 30 pushups. plus weighted pullups every weekday morning.

-30 push ups-wow

- For abs I do the ab wheel 3 days a week.

- I'd take the ab wheel over crunches anyday. I only do it once a week for fun.

Which is it Toby- One day, Two days.....Make up your mind!


3. for strength I do benchpress, squats, deadlifts and pullups. Low reps, heavy weight. 5 days a week.

4.I've got a shoulder problem at the moment

5.My osteolysis is caused by "repetitive microtrauma" or (not in my case) a single large trauma injury according to the literature

6. I don't really overtrain

7. I bench on a bad shoulder because my name's Toby and I'm an exercise addict

8. I can't really give it up.

9. My specialist said that exercises I should avoid involve lifting the upper arm past horizontal.

10. Bench is bad for osteolysis

11. If I was a good patient, I'd stop all weights and MA for 6 months or more.

12. If it gets really bad, it just means my AC joint decays, and I always have the option of getting the bone cut off

13. I'd imagine that the average MAist would have a higher level of fitness

14. I'm more into strength training,

15. I'm not interested in the drugs that they take, but they have some good training ideas regarding strength.

Toby- I am sorry but I don't look up toooooo drug users! The results they gain are due to the drugs that they use. This is what you're telling me....

16. I know that I love getting beaten up

17.I know that I have a bad shoulder. I had it diagnosed.

18. I may not be making the right decision

19. The people who posted with back pain I'm guessing didn't know what caused it, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.


I'm sorry Tobby but I don't think that the above information is proper. I disagree......

You disagree with the sources that I have mention that's okay!

However, I don't think that my sources will advocate the following.

1. Not taking advice from your doctor
2. Not giving your injuries the proper rest needed for healing and etc..


Toby all jokes to the side! Take care of your health. Your Health is more important than strength.

[IronFist]

What, so you want me to take over Toby's argument then?

The fact that he has an injury doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. Elite level lifters get injuries, too.

You said:
I will advise anyone to find a credible individual with some type of certification and reputable references before taking any advice from Toby.
(^That quote was originally in LC-NYC's post but has since been changed)

lol. Didn't we already establish that certifications don't mean anything?

But if you're happy paying Joe Personal Trainer $50 an hour to shout "come on, one more!" and get you to "feel the burn" and telling you how to work your "upper abs" and "lower abs" then go ahead.

So let's see... we've got Toby presenting facts based on research, and then we've got you saying "oh, whatever a personal trainer says must be right."

And btw, there are plenty of powerlifters and strength athletes who struggle to do 30 pushups. Training to lift a high 1RM is completely different from training to do a lot of pushups. So if you have no problems doing a lot of pushups, can you bench 2 times your bodyweight? Can you bench 1.5 times your bodyweight? Can you even bench your bodyweight? Lots of strength does not equal lots of endurance, and vice versa.

[LC-NYC]

...

Yeah! I said this........
I will advise anyone to find a credible individual with some type of certification and reputable references before taking any advice from Toby. Yeah Toby/Ironfist I said it! But I deleted because I taught it was obvious. If you, Toby or anyone in this planet believes that engaging in physical activities when you know that you should stop and let your body heal than there is something wrong. I hope I don't have to explain this anymore.

What, so you want me to take over Toby's argument then?

First Toby, and now Ironfist.......

I don't have the time for this nonsense.

If you want to follow someone that advocates working out the same muscles that are injured then go ahead........


Yes! not all certifications are created equal! Not all certified teachers are good teachers. I know! It's getting old now........

I currently have a friend who is in a powerlifting team. In fact 2 friends. I also know his Coach. The coach has compeated and won several national competitions drug free. He is a powerlifter. I respect what they do. The Coach has a certification. Is he also no good?

Look........... I don't have anything to prove to anyone. I know where I stand! Besides I am not interested in powerlifting. I am currently interested in Mat Fureys theories of Combat Conditioning. Anyway I find endurance to be more important over lifting weights or powerlifting.

My rating........
1. Self- health, nutrition and etc....
2. Endurance
3. Wing Chun/Grappling including full contact sparring, especially against other systems, scenario sparring, and other forms of drills that help increase fighting ability.
4. strength
5. Flexibility
and more..... these are the most important for me! Since I'm still learning I am always open to new suggestions.....


And always God......

To conclude, my experience in the streets and competitive matches have taught me the importance of stamina. Any combative athelete will tell you the importance of stamina. You believe what you want and I believe what I want. I am no longer going to discuss this subject. I rather spend my time doing something more useful

[AndrewS]

LC-NYC,

Yes, I am an MD. Check the California Medical Board for Andrew Somlyo, if you're that curious.

I'm an IM doc- that, generally speaking, means that I would be the *first* person you'd see if you had a non-traumatic musculoskeletal injury given the nature of the health-care system.

Sports medicine is a 1 year fellowship from an IM or Family Med background. I've been training since well before med school, hence I've picked up a little bit of sports med stuff along the way. Well, maybe more than a little bit. . .

One of the reasons I *don't* advertize my profession is that arguments from authority ('I am a *blank*, so I'm right') are logically invalid. I know enough doctors who I wouldn't listen to about training matters (including orthopods), for me to be quite suspicious of credentials. So what do I look for - DATA!

You seem to be blowing a fuse because Toby brought up a different training paradigm than the one you're used to. A number of folks have chimed in, given their experiences of his approach and take on it. I've told you where to find secondary sources and links to primary sources (original studies). Stop throwing a fit and look at the data.

Is Toby hurting himself with his training approach? Maybe, maybe not. The stimuli for increased bone density and connective tissue growth include compressive forces- the sort of forces resistance training puts on your joints. If he's careful, he may be helping himself. As I said earlier, I think he should be careful about the bench, and maybe pick another shoulder girdle exercise. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. For all I know, the way to fix his shoulder is to correct an imbalance in his back or hips with massage, stretching, or strength training. A good bodyworker might be of some use.

Whatever the answer, it's his body, and he gets to take the risks with it.

Later,

Andrew

[LC-NYC]

Like yourself I also like DATA, RESEARCH, STUDIES, FACTS and etc.


You are right! Let Toby and everybody else in the world do what they want to do!

However I saw something that I taught was wrong and I questioned it!

No fuse! I was concern! I don't know toby he doesn't know me! If he or anyone else didn't see my concern then thats too bad. It's in my nature to try and help people. I don't always know the right answer but I try and I am willing to listen, learn or try to find someone else that can provide better information.

[AndrewS]

LC-NYC,

The 'Combat Conditioning' thing- bodyweight exercises are great, but there's very little use in doing insanely high reps, and as I said earlier, I'm well convinced that this is how you thrash your joints. I worked up to 350 hindu squats, and 90 hindu pushups continuously, and frankly got little out of it. I've talked about this with a bunch of trainers, including Mike Mahler <www.mikemahler.com>, and the consensus seems to be that high rep = bad joint pain. At most keep it under 50 reps, or, better yet do 10-20 of something challenging, then switch exercises. 10 rounds of 5 hindu pushups alternating with 20 squats should give you all the benefits and none of the damage of 200 squats and 50 pushups. The 'under fifty' thing is Frank Shamrock's rule of thumb, too.

Endurance is a complex issue- Taku's page is a great resource which you might want to take a look at.

The ab wheel- I didn't say that it was impossible to injure your knee using it, just that the injury didn't make sense. Bruising your knee on the floor, ok, that makes sense, but I wouldn't dismiss the apparatus just 'cos you forgot to use padding one day. . .

The guy who turned me on to the ab wheel is my sifu, Emin Boztepe. It's been a staple for him for years and does have nice functional crossover to Wing Chun. For those of you who are into it, try doing a set or two with your knees adducting a medicine ball while doing your reps. The irradiation effect will make the reps easier, and it will make nice kinesthetic sense if you chose to body power your jut sao.

Toby,

nice talking with you, man, look me up if you make it to LA. Who are you training with in Oz?

Later,

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

AndrewS:

Real nice post on doing no more than 50 reps - or better yet, as you put it - doing "rounds" of more than one exercise, usinf smaller amounts of reps. I've been conditioning myself like that for years now as well...it's what works best for me too.

Your first post on this thread was real good also.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by AndrewS
The 'under fifty' thing is Frank Shamrock's rule of thumb, too.


I read that one of the tests you have to pass to get into the Lion's Den is to be able to do 500 straight Hindu Squats. Isn't that Shamrock's school?

[LC-NYC]

!Andrew I did say "Get rid of the Ab Wheel." In my first thread I stated that there are better and safer ways to develop your Abdominal Strength. I also said that the Ab Wheel can cause knee injuries.

1. There are better ways to develop the abs. This is something that has been researched and studied. I didn't make this up! Data has been collected. This is one study.....

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/conditioning/a/aa020402a.htm

There are other readings/discussions that have made me consider doing other abdominal exercises.

2. There are safer ways to develop the abs besides using the ab Wheel.

Yes, If you use the correct form/follow the instructions that usually comes with the equipment correctly you can avoid these injuries. However, If you don't use a mat it can cause injuries. If you don't have the upper body strength necessary it could lead to an injury and etc. I have seen people fall on their face because they taught they can easily use the AB Wheel. This is why I say that proper sit-ups with correct techniques can be safer then the AB Wheel.

3. I stated that the Ab Wheel can cause knee injuries. As I mentioned numerous of times.....I myself got injured and was told by a Orthopedic Doctor that it was due to the the use of the ab wheel.

No..... I never said I did it without padding. I did say that maybe it was the different padding that I used that day. A padding made by reebox for floor exercising. I also stated that I wasn't the first individual to say that I injured my knee. Other's have also complained about knee injuries. That's why some makers would provide a special knee cushion to go along with the device.

Did the knee Injury made me decide to stop using the machine? No, but it did made me think about the safety of the device. What happen made me look around to see how effective the ab wheel really was.

At the time I was advice not to use the ab wheel until my knee healed. I took my doctors advice.


Was it my mistake? It's possible or maybe it was the fault of the mat and not the device.. Anything is possible..... I'm human.

Should it be something that beginners should know about? I think so, other consumers think so and so do most makers who make ab wheels.

My opinion on why I suggested to get rid of the machine was based on it's rating of performance based on the studies I have read. It might have sounded confusing when I included the knee injury. However, the main reason is due to the studies.

If someone shows me a better study that shows that the ab roller is worth using it then I will be interested.

To end this....I also stated in the beginning of the post:
Don't take my word for it!

I am learning! I am a student, I am not always right, I don't know everything and I am not going to lie to anyone and make believe that I know everything...........It's not me!


Thank you for your info on Mat Furey, I will be looking into your advice. I hope that this clears everything and that it ends here!

[Toby]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
-30 push ups-wow
:rolleyes: My quote came from me explaining that endurance and strength are 2 different things. The quote was that I can benchpress lots, but that means nothing when it comes to endurance. So yeah, I struggle with 30 pushups. A few years ago I used to do 2 sets of 50 a day. Some Indian guy did them once (IIRC) for 24 hours straight. That's endurance, not strength. I talked about endurance in another post.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
- For abs I do the ab wheel 3 days a week.

- I'd take the ab wheel over crunches anyday. I only do it once a week for fun.

Which is it Toby- One day, Two days.....Make up your mind!

My mind's made up. Here's the original quote:


Originally posted by Toby
For abs I do Janda situps, weighted leg raises and the ab wheel. 3 days a week.
I do Jandas and leg raises 3 days a week. I do the ab wheel once a week for fun. I've also got a bunch of other ab exercises that I mix up for fun.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
Toby- I am sorry but I don't look up toooooo drug users! The results they gain are due to the drugs that they use. This is what you're telling me....
I'm not telling you anything. Without drugs, I'm sure they'd still be lifting at least twice what I lift. And maybe you don't look up to drug users, and neither do I (as I said), but maybe Gangsterfist wouldn't mind getting on the juice (no offence, G). So I pointed out the strongest gym in the world's website to him. Unfortunately, to be the world's strongest lifters you have to be on drugs. Fact of powerlifting. But you can still get strong without drugs.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
16. I know that I love getting beaten up
I think that's almost a prerequisite in MA. Don't want contact? Try badminton.

Listen, open up your mind a bit. Read some of the info in here. Stop trying to argue (although I don't care if you do - you're just leaving yourself wide open).

[Toby]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
Yeah! I said this........ Yeah Toby/Ironfist I said it! But I deleted because I taught it was obvious. If you, Toby or anyone in this planet believes that engaging in physical activities when you know that you should stop and let your body heal than there is something wrong. I hope I don't have to explain this anymore.

If you want to follow someone that advocates working out the same muscles that are injured then go ahead........
Actually, IIRC, there's a bunch of research that advocates working out tired or sore muscles the next day. Increased blood flow = increased recovery rate.

Your editing habit is annoying. Please wait a bit before posting if you're going to keep doing that. At least 3 times I've been replying to stuff that you've subsequently deleted.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
I currently have a friend who is in a powerlifting team. In fact 2 friends. I also know his Coach. The coach has compeated and won several national competitions drug free. He is a powerlifter. I respect what they do. The Coach has a certification. Is he also no good?
I was saying that certification means nothing without experience. You then say here's someone with experience and a certification. So yeah, he's probably good.


Originally posted by LC-NYC
To conclude, my experience in the streets and competitive matches have taught me the importance of stamina. Any combative athelete will tell you the importance of stamina. You believe what you want and I believe what I want. I am no longer going to discuss this subject. I rather spend my time doing something more useful
OK, matches have an endurance component. But on the street? This isn't my area, but I can't see endurance coming into it unless you're running from or after opponents. What sort of street fights have you been in? 10 min, 15 min? Or seconds? Anyway, I agree that endurance is important. That's why I train it, and provided links with info based on research (and that others also recommend).

<edit>fixed inadvertent carriage return</edit>

[LC-NYC]

To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill. -SUN-TZU


Life unfolds on a great sheet called Time,
and once finished is is gone forever.
-CHINESE ADAGE


sai,

[kj]

Originally posted by Toby

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by LC-NYC
16. I know that I love getting beaten up
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I think that's almost a prerequisite in MA. Don't want contact? Try badminton.

With all due respect, that's an absurd generalization. Many people choose to undertake martial arts training in part or explicitly because they do not wish to get beaten up. I happen to be one of them.

A willingness to take degrees of calculated risk - yes. A love for getting beaten up - no.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Toby]

Sorry Kathy Jo. I shouldn't have brought it up. What I mean is that (for me, anyway) WC is a contact "sport". I anticipate getting hit as part of the learning process and I think getting hit is a good way to learn. E.g. don't make that mistake the next time. I didn't mean ending up lying in the gutter half dead. I meant leaving class with bruises and sore muscles is part of the enjoyment for me. Same as when I played rugby. You don't necessarily want to get tackled, but you expect to get knocked around and it's kind of fun when you do. Makes me feel alive.

[Toby]

LC-NYC - that's very interesting to me (with no fighting experience since school). Your post is worthy of a new thread, if you can be bothered creating one. I would love to hear (in a new thread, since this one is sooo off topic now) about people's experience of fight lengths. I was always under the impression that street fights were quick affairs. I was very surprised to hear that you had one lasting 1/2 hour. But that's for another thread. We're supposed to be arguing about ab rollers, not endurance. Besides, we both agree in the importance of endurance so there's nothing to argue about :p.

Anyway, I never took anything personally in this thread. You should learn not to either. As I think I said before, it's only the internet. Sometimes it's fun to argue, but it's not worth losing sleep over. I honestly didn't intend to make you angry (like at home, or whatever). So thanks for the discussion. As usual in these "fights", it seems neither of us will end up learning anything new or changing anything, so we've got is lost time and bandwidth.

I'm also sorry you lost time with your kid. One more thing to agree about. My kids are the most important thing in the world. I would lay down my life in a second for them. Wanna make me angry? Attack them. I'll kill you or die trying (that's a collective you, not you in particular LC-NYC). They were also a strong motivation for me to learn WC. I wanted to be able to stop any threat to them and eventually hope they will follow a path of MA learning too.

[kj]

Originally posted by Toby
Sorry Kathy Jo. I shouldn't have brought it up. What I mean is that (for me, anyway) WC is a contact "sport".

Ah, thanks for the clarification, Toby. In contrast, I don't view Wing Chun as a sport. This may explain a significant difference in our perspectives and goals.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[IronFist]

Someone clarify my question about Shamrock making people do 500 hindu squats to get into his school (on the previous page).

[Ultimatewingchun]

LC-NYC:

Your latest post (about what's gone on in your life, past and present) - was very heartfelt and real...that IS life in NYC, and you sound very sincere...what we call in my part of the woods - "a stand-up guy".

You contacted me recently via email and I sent you my phone#
in return...Give me a call...my school is located in Brooklyn...come on down and watch a class.

[Toby]

Kathy Jo,

That's why I put it in "". I couldn't think of a better word. Contact art, contact game? Dunno. None of them fit.



UltimateWC,

yeah that was a cool post. Sorta like the NYC that I only hear about in movies, TV etc. Only time I've been to NYC we stayed with my parent's friends in West 85th St (from memory). They had a vacant apartment for us. Manhattan seemed a lot smaller and friendlier than I'd envisaged.


I can't believe people are still reading this thread :eek:.

[Gangsterfist]

Okay, well I didn't think this thread would end up like this.

One thing I have always had trouble with is wrist conditioning. What techniques, training methods do you guys use to strengthen your wrists? I don't seem to get the results I want with the things I have tried.

[SevenStar]

hit a heavy bag
do wrist curls
do knuckle pushups


What all have you tried so far?

[Gangsterfist]

I usually start off with some huen saos to stretch out my wrist. I have tried finger and wrist push ups, but they seem to just make my wrist sore. Perhaps I should use some dit dat jow herbal mix or something to help strengthen them. They have definately improved since I started working out, but progress seems extremely slow compared to the rest of my body.

I do punch a heavy bag and a punch pad every now and again.

[rubthebuddha]

wrist pushups are generally badness. a pushup, on average, is about 60 percent of your body weight. now if you weigh 150, that's 90 lbs. of pressure on your wrist at an angle at which your wrist isn't really designed to take pressure. it'd be like doing bootstrappers (see www.trainforstrength.com) on the blades of your feet.

do your huen saus, do the stuff sevenstar suggested and that should be plenty. if you're really bored, do that stuff again. and if you're more bored than that, do a search for wrist roller in the training forum. :)

[IronFist]

Still waiting for someone to answer my 500 Hindu squats/Shamrock question.

[Toby]

Sorry Iron. Can't help.

Gangsterfist, the definitive resource for wrist and grip strength is http://www.ironmind.com Lots of good products.

Also, make up your own (or buy Ironmind's) wrist roller. I use a piece of dowel (the same sort that I used for my ab roller :D) the biggest diameter you can find (within reason - I used 35mm). Drill a hole through it. Get some strong non-stretch rope/string. I used sailing braid rated to 100's of pounds but only because I had some lying around. 4mm diameter. Put the string through the hole and tie a few knots so it can't go through the dowel. I also countersunk the knots. On the other end (about 1m long rope), tie your weight plates. Start maybe with 10-15 lb and work up from there. The exercise is: grip the dowel in your hands and hold it out in front so the weight is off the ground. Then, roll the dowel with one hand then the other in turn to wind the rope around the dowel and slowly lift the weight up to the dowel. Do it both ways, i.e. wrists turning away, then next "rep" wrists turning towards you. Do as many sets as you like. I do 3 sets of 2 reps.

<edit>fixed typo</edit>