Shuai Jiao and ground fighting [Archive]

Unmatchable

01-06-2004, 02:51 PM

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8144

quote by mikus

Robert W Smith apparently was able to throw every shuai jiao practioner around with ease. I believe he was a 2nd dan judo blackbelt. I don't think he was a particularly great one, either. Oddly enough, he is in love with certain CMA's (he currently teaches taiji and maybe xingyi, which he seems to like much more than judo), but thinks that Shuai Jiao sucks. The people he grappled with were the guy who did this demo's peers. He might've even grappled with this guy himself.

Here is one by MiloNYC

Shui Chiao is just one of a million folk wrestling styles with almost all the same moves found in arts all over the world. What's amazing is that by applying kung fu training methods to it the Chinese have managed to make it NOT WORK. How the hell do you make wrestling not work? It's wrestling for christ sake. Well never practice with a resisting opponent for one. Shui Chiao is a great piece of evidence of what happened to Kung Fu over the generations. Practical moves practiced with a don't hurt/resist/question/embarrass teacher method, stop being practical or even recognizable really fast.

CrippledAvenger

01-06-2004, 02:57 PM

Yawn. 3.2

Unmatchable indeed. I call shennanigans.

lkfmdc

01-06-2004, 02:57 PM

I can attack this last post...

1. Robert Smith is, uh, well, full of (edited) --- let's say donkey poo

Robert Smith apparently wanted to study Shuai Chiao and got tossed out by Master Chang after he found out that Smith was also studying with Cheng Man Ching.

Smith says some truly stupid things in his books about SC, basicly because he wanted "revenge".. he says SC has no "o soto gari" but that is "diagonal striking" and is like the 3rd technique taught!

Smith doesn't like the falling method and then goes on to relate how he used a judo break fall and "thank g'd" he only broke his arm!!!! Having used SC break falls when being thrown on WOOD FLOORS, I know they are better methods. If Smith had learned them, he wouldn't have broken his arm

Smith wouldn't have said ZIP to Chang....

2. I don't know who "MiloNYC" is but from what he wrote, I bet he studied the art under this city's biggest fraud, ie he learned crap and didn't realize that it was only because his teacher SUCKED

truewrestler

01-06-2004, 02:57 PM

lol ...and what does that say about the rest of Kung Fu? :eek:

CrippledAvenger

01-06-2004, 03:05 PM

Shuai Chiao story time, the breakfall edition:

As some of you know, Water Dragon and I work out with the local MMA guys. One day after practice, we were doing freewrestling on the mats, and WD nailed me with a pretty sweet Diagonal Cut (a nasty O Soto Gari for you Judo types). I went into a Shuai Chiao breakfall, and as I was picking myself up off the floor, our trainer comes over.

He says, "You know, next time you fall, fall like this," doing a Judo breakfall. WD explains to him that we fall the way we do because the larger shoulder and leg muscles absorb the fall and take a chunk of the shock. Miguel, (our trainer) thinks about it for a minute, and then turns to us and says, "Oh, okay. That'll work too."

This is why I like the vale tudo crowd. If it works, they're cool with it.

Chang Style Novice

01-06-2004, 03:07 PM

He shoulda tried it himself.

Unmatchable

01-06-2004, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
Shuai Chiao story time, the breakfall edition:

As some of you know, Water Dragon and I work out with the local MMA guys. One day after practice, we were doing freewrestling on the mats, and WD nailed me with a pretty sweet Diagonal Cut (a nasty O Soto Gari for you Judo types). I went into a Shuai Chiao breakfall, and as I was picking myself up off the floor, our trainer comes over.

He says, "You know, next time you fall, fall like this," doing a Judo breakfall. WD explains to him that we fall the way we do because the larger shoulder and leg muscles absorb the fall and take a chunk of the shock. Miguel, (our trainer) thinks about it for a minute, and then turns to us and says, "Oh, okay. That'll work too."

This is why I like the vale tudo crowd. If it works, they're cool with it.

Depends who it is. I had a Muay Thai guy tell me not to snap my kick when in fact in Muay Thai you have to turn it in mid air and I wasn't really snapping it yet he still insisted I was doing it wrong and was a karate guy when I never took Karate.

Water Dragon

01-06-2004, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Unmatchable

Depends who it is. I had a Muay Thai guy tell me not to snap my kick when in fact in Muay Thai you have to turn it in mid air and I wasn't really snapping it yet he still insisted I was doing it wrong and was a karate guy when I never took Karate.

www.ironheartcrown.com

Go ask who Miguel Torres is over on mma.tv

SevenStar

01-06-2004, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Unmatchable

Depends who it is. I had a Muay Thai guy tell me not to snap my kick when in fact in Muay Thai you have to turn it in mid air and I wasn't really snapping it yet he still insisted I was doing it wrong and was a karate guy when I never took Karate.

That's because the mechanics of the two kicks are different. whether he's coll with the snap kick or not, he's not really showing you MT if he's not showing you the MT way to do it...

Mika

01-06-2004, 03:44 PM

Thanks y'all for the replies!

Now, WD and CA, you say y'all grapple with the local MMA guys. What would your reasons for this be?
(Just to be clear about my intentions, I don't like asking tag questions, so I let you answer it in your own words. I am NOT questioning your decision, I am just trying to get to the bottom of this).

So, how similar would y'all say SJ is to BJJ (or other related arts)?

Thanks :)

//mika

Water Dragon

01-06-2004, 03:46 PM

Simple Mika,
Miguel is maybe the best fighter in my area, so I learn what he has to teach.

-edit-

I actually started going to Miguel for his Muay Thai, the BJJ is just icing on the cake.

I was looking for a sparring partner and ended up at the local BJJ school as they have some MMA guys there as well. So I hook upp with this lil 135 pound Mexican (I'm about 185) and we go 50's (half power). We lock up, I throw him with neck surround. We lock up again and I get a raise. Miguel then proceeds to beat the living 4hit out of me for the next 1/2 hour straight. How could I pass up an opportunity to learn from someone who thrashed me so thoroughly?

Mika

01-06-2004, 03:50 PM

Kewl! I am sure he is good (and I did check out that link).

Okay, I'll tag it: are y'all practicing with those guys also because SJ doesn't offer enough grappling on the ground or does that have anything to do with that?

I have never seen SJ with my own eyes, nor will I likely see any anytime soon, so you guys are all I have on this one...;)

//mika

Unmatchable

01-06-2004, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon

www.ironheartcrown.com

Go ask who Miguel Torres is over on mma.tv

why the f did you post a link to that gay site?

Water Dragon

01-06-2004, 04:03 PM

I figured you would appreciate it you flaming romo

CrippledAvenger

01-06-2004, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Unmatchable

why the f did you post a link to that gay site?

4.5

At least you're being prompt, KKM.

Unmatchable

01-06-2004, 04:58 PM

sorry I thought you were trying to advertise your gym or something.

And btw, I am not kkm. Ralek is kkm.

MonkeySlap Too

01-06-2004, 05:25 PM

Mika, I'll answer for WD. WD's SJ teacher is my student. He moved to New York, leaving Northwest Indiana without a coach. WD has been a good long distance student, but he's at a stage where he needs to fight. After reviewing the schools around, MT's was the best that fitted our philosophy. Now they have tasted Combat Shuai Chiao, and we have a MMA school that respects CMA. Well, at least CSC. The cross-training is now going both ways.

WD has represented us well, and has earned a place in the sun. My teacher has always reccommended cross training in like minded arts as a way to get more fighting experience and therefore more insights into your SC practice. I live this philosophy.

I can only speak to the CSC I've been taught, and can't speak about the other groups and thier methods. CSC is the most comprehensive and efficient training method I've seen. It produces consistent results. One of my other students has fought in many tough guy contests and has zero losses to date. Very few other martial arts groups come to play at our open tournaments - they watch and don't fight. I never understood this. There will be another one in Austin this October - I'm planning on bringing a team - my first chance to do this in over five years. Everybody should come.

As far as 'good' MMA and Combat Shuai chiao - I think they have more in common than not.

Water Dragon

01-06-2004, 09:41 PM

yeah, what he said :cool:

Unmatchable

01-06-2004, 11:35 PM

JBliss wrote:

I have studied ISCA Shuai Chiao for five years and this is my opinion:

Shuai Chiao is not Judo
Shuai Chiao locks the arms, legs and body to facillitate a throw
and to grab skin (eg fleshy inner thigh) instead of the cloth gi.
There is more power in Shuai Chiao technique (as with the leg blocking techniques)
Shuai Chiao advanced technique is very unortodox (nowaday) and not easy to pull off
it needs specific traing to the legs in order to sweep and capture and twist like a top
all the while not losing your balance or getting ditched by your opponent.
Alot of the traing is good for devolping fundamentals but after a few years is "crap"
one step sparring and such. It frustrated me to no end.
and...
Judo evolved from shuai Chaio via jiujitsu -obviously- Shuai chiao went to japan, reasearch it if you don't believe me.
Judo IS good
I LIKE judo, the arts are very much the same.
Randori training is better
the Ground work is better
Shaui Chiao doesn't "do" dogfighting
and the heart of men like Kimura are not to be found these days
Chang knew this, when he taught in Taiwan he tought no one closed door. He broke his ass being the best and no one was willing to do the same to learn from him everyone wanted a hand out so he said "**** em'"

Shuai Chiao (as I learned it) is full of invaluable treasures. Training methods (iso power sets, stances) things that I cherish and feel have been erroneously ignored and forgotten. BUT a few years ago I fought a impromptu MMA match and although I won, I found my training incomplete.
Now I cross train...like everyone else
Shuai chaio has good tactics, stuff that isn't in Judo or wrestling (like foot seizes) and has developed me as a fighter in a very unorthdox way. I'm not the guy that is going to tell you it is the end all be all...because there are no such things
but i will tell you I have both used it to great advantage in class and in tornaments ( ALONG with and NOT excluding my freestyle wrestling and BJJ) and that now and again when going for a sweet throw I get myself in dutch (SUPLEX)...(ouch)
Chang beat everyone because he was a superb wrestler
Shaolin and other CMA's became weak because while originally (and in some cases still) contained a good amount of shaui Chiao, this was de-emphasized because it hurts to get tossed all the time.
Along comes the grappler and... we all know this story.
Shuai Chiao is just and old version of it.
And I will tell you that I believe it has fallen behind becuase of a lack of sport competition.
The ISCA isn't into it
but I'm not them
I didn't like those Clips either, I saw them years ago
I more than any of you NEEDED to see my art in action
I wished a SC man entered the UFC back then
I wish I could tell myself a nice bedtime story
but I'm way past bedtime and I know CMA is decaying
-thankfully- down to the bitter roots
and (hopefully) all the garbage will die and all that is left is what is strongest.

...apologies for the long read

He also wrote:

for instnace the leg block
say your going to hip throw (wavy lines denoting imagination here)
~~~~~~~~~~
sometimes you step a leg back for the person to fall over
instead you whip the hips and upper body whilst
(yup i said whilst)
slamming the leg in the area of the oppnents most convinient leg
in essence getting them to fall forward while one leg goes backward and your leg barring the knee making a popping noise. (notice i empasize the power with adjectives!)
little things like that are what sperate SC and judo
judo designed by Kano for sport
SC evolved by combat
Judo being better due to sport (irony)
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8144&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

Mika

01-07-2004, 01:01 AM

Thanks guys!

It seems Shuai Jiao (or Shuai Chiao) is an art that is close to some other arts but has its own distinct features. The links are really good.

I have one more question about this: since these are the times of MMA (and BJJ and ground grappling), do any SJ (SC) schools now incorporate any ground work?

Thanks :)

Mika

Unmatchable

01-07-2004, 03:14 AM

not unless you have a foot fetish.

ShaolinTiger00

01-07-2004, 08:21 AM

:rolleyes:

SevenStar

01-07-2004, 09:08 AM

"Judo evolved from shuai Chaio via jiujitsu -obviously- Shuai chiao went to japan, reasearch it if you don't believe me."

Actually, that can't be proved. Nobody has found a verifiable link between jujutsu and an art from china. Also, the sc guys say that sumo is more similar to sc's method than jujutsu...

truewrestler

01-07-2004, 09:24 AM

It all came from India anyway

Vash

01-07-2004, 09:34 AM

Bah! It all came from Egypt! Didn't anyone see the Mummy Returns?! Duh!!!

SevenStar

01-07-2004, 09:37 AM

vash has chased down the correct, tackled it and beat it into submission for his own personal purposes.

If it was in The Mummy Returns, it MUST be true.

MonkeySlap Too

01-07-2004, 10:45 AM

If the ISCA guys don't fight regularly, they are not in the Shuai Chiao mainstream - I don't get it.

Water Dragon

01-07-2004, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
If the ISCA guys don't fight regularly, they are not in the Shuai Chiao mainstream - I don't get it.

I just checked. ISCA is Gene Chicione's organization.

CrippledAvenger

01-07-2004, 11:10 AM

I thought he was a Catch-as-Catch-Can guy?:confused:

Water Dragon

01-07-2004, 11:14 AM

You're thinking of Tony Ceccine.

CrippledAvenger

01-07-2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Mika
Thanks guys!

It seems Shuai Jiao (or Shuai Chiao) is an art that is close to some other arts but has its own distinct features. The links are really good.

I have one more question about this: since these are the times of MMA (and BJJ and ground grappling), do any SJ (SC) schools now incorporate any ground work?

WD and I did a few rounds of freewrestling last night that went to the ground. When it did I got killed, but it's an interesting experience to see what happens if you stuff a throw and go down as well.

As far as Shuai Chiao's distinct features, lemme just say they're good enough for me-- a former boxer and muay thai guy-- to stick around. The training's brutal, my seniors are all excellent guys who know how to use the material, and there's a lot of encouragement to get out there and mix it up with other schools and disciplines.

FWIW...

CrippledAvenger

01-07-2004, 11:22 AM

Ah, so I was! Carry on then. :o

ShaolinTiger00

01-07-2004, 03:22 PM

- mobility (the day that you get into a gangs fight than you will appreciate the tradition SC approach).

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!

:D

ok Sonny Chiba..

backbreaker

01-07-2004, 03:23 PM

That's a cool ****ing crazy way to spar:cool:

Water Dragon

01-07-2004, 03:26 PM

I've been jumped before, it's not fun. Contrary to the world ST00 wants to live in, $hit happens and some people think about that.

ShaolinTiger00

01-07-2004, 03:36 PM

reality - no amount of SC is going to save you when julio, hector, juan, raul, martin, humberto, tito, roberto & antonio back you into a corner and beat the **** out of you.

anyone (ANYONE) might get off a shot of two in a scrap but NO ONE is going to walk away from that without getting the living **** beat out of them..

who's delusional?

:rolleyes:

lkfmdc

01-07-2004, 03:41 PM

now, now, couldn't that be a gang composed of Geoffrey, Winston, Roger, Thurston, Biff and Nelson??? :D

Water Dragon

01-07-2004, 03:43 PM

So is it delusional to think that if there are 4 guys that want to whoop my ass that I can run thru the guy who's between me and the door with an O Soto and keep running?

Dealing with multiple opponents doesn't mean you're gonna beat them all up, it means you try to survive and escape.

SevenStar

01-07-2004, 03:48 PM

Crip, this is for you. This is gene chicoine:

http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/halloffame/html/215.html

ShaolinTiger00

01-07-2004, 03:48 PM

Geoffrey, Winston, Roger, Thurston, Biff and Nelson???

You know those rowdy Hampton gangs..w/ the A&F "colors"

Dealing with multiple opponents doesn't mean you're gonna beat them all up, it means you try to survive and escape.

Well no ****.. That's common ****ing sense. You don't need to be a martial artist to have it. My housecat has the same instinct..

Water Dragon

01-07-2004, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

You know those rowdy Hampton gangs..w/ the A&F "colors"

Well no ****.. That's common ****ing sense. You don't need to be a martial artist to have it. My housecat has the same instinct..

So first you claim that NO ONE is able to deal w/ multiple opponents, now you claim that even untrained people can do it.

ShaolinTiger00

01-07-2004, 03:51 PM

and another thing..

do you think "gangs" are stupid? do you think they haven't done this before? do you believe that they'll let you run away? that they won't jump you in an area they know will lead to a successful jacking? (your car, your valuables.. maybe your sweet as$)

lkfmdc

01-07-2004, 03:51 PM

gang "fight" is for those in gangs... ie your 4-5 vs their 4-5, and even those usually involve weapons, lots of chaos and at least one person DIES :(

gang "attack" and the reality is RUN.... the idea of one man fighting many is basicly martial art mythology

unless you do 45 caliber do :)

lkfmdc

01-07-2004, 03:54 PM

oh, and yes, I was assaulted once by a group of white guys, they got a lot of my money.....

they were my ex-wife's lawyers :D

backbreaker

01-07-2004, 03:54 PM

some gang members are little kids

Water Dragon

01-07-2004, 03:55 PM

Gangs are mainly comprised of 14 to 17 year old punks who aren't near as organized as you might think.

If you do run into a group of the older ones, it usually means you ended up in their watering hole at which point you have just been proper ****ed

In all honesty, if you end up running into multiples, it's most likely gonna be Drunken Fred and his Frat Brothers at the local club. And I still say you can plow thru Drunken Fred and be out the door before they realize WTF just happened.

ShaolinTiger00

01-07-2004, 04:04 PM

So first you claim that NO ONE is able to deal w/ multiple opponents, now you claim that even untrained people can do it.

Don't you hate it when people try to read into what you said?

I'm saying that Everyone has the intinct to run. No one has the ability to fight off multiple people.

lol @ the pack of white guys that got sifu Ross!

"Goldstein you grab his legs, Lebowitz you sit on his chest!" we'll teach you you walk thru Flushing!!!

;)

SevenStar

01-07-2004, 04:16 PM

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ShaolinTiger00

01-07-2004, 04:20 PM

Are we talking about The same:

no. I don't even think you're on my planet.

*editied for posterity*

:rolleyes:

lkfmdc

01-07-2004, 04:28 PM

ST00

disagreements and good hearted humor are major part of this place, but cut sc_guy a break ok? we can disagree but let's not be nasty....

ShaolinTiger00

01-07-2004, 04:32 PM

ok buddy..

What have you done with the real David Ross?:mad:

lkfmdc

01-07-2004, 04:37 PM

he's locked in my basement :)

SifuAbel

01-07-2004, 06:24 PM

Well when it happened to me (yes this is a real event) it was julio, hector, juan, raul & martin.

I kicked julio in the knee and punched/pushed/threw him into hector. They fell creating a hole and I made a break for it.

Juan and the boys started to chase me. Raul was the fastest, so I side kicked him in the stomach ( got lucky with this one since it was an abrupt stop into a skip kick) Juan and martin half gased out, half saw raul and wanted no part of it.

Moral of the story, make a hole and run.

Water Dragon

01-07-2004, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel

Moral of the story, make a hole and run.

Exactly!

Knifefighter

01-07-2004, 07:41 PM

The strength of SC is its throws. The weakness of SC is it's lack of ground fighting and believing that the fight will end with the throw.

The strength of BJJ is its groundfighting. It is light years ahead of SC in this regard . The weakness of BJJ is its disregard for the standup game.

Chang Style Novice

01-07-2004, 07:53 PM

Sounds like there's a hell of a peanut butter cup to be made from the two. (Actually, I've thought this was the case for some time.)

CaptinPickAxe

01-07-2004, 07:56 PM

Yes, but whats the supreme hand game for shuai chiao and bjj?

Chang Style Novice

01-07-2004, 07:59 PM

rock-paper-scissors

edit - more seriously, I think it's pretty common for SC guys to combine with TJQ, XY and BGZ. Sticking to Chinese arts, I'd say Baji/Piqua would combine well, too. Moving to other stuff, MT and Western boxing.

FatherDog

01-07-2004, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
The strength of SC is its throws. The weakness of SC is it's lack of ground fighting and believing that the fight will end with the throw.

The strength of BJJ is its groundfighting. It is light years ahead of SC in this regard . The weakness of BJJ is its disregard for the standup game.

Knifefighter has gutted the correct from crotch to sternum like a rainbow trout.

MonkeySlap Too

01-07-2004, 11:19 PM

But if all you intend to do is stab the f@cker once he's down, what do you really need groundwork for?

ST - yer barkin' up a wrong tree. I've lived through a three on me and a twelve on 2 situation. Got hurt bad in the twelve on 2, but seven of those guys went to the hospital. One with severe burns because I threw him into a bonfire. That took the will to fight out of the rest. Even did a six on me in high school where they chased me up a stairwell, and I turned and dived down on them. Shattered my right ulna, but hey - I won.

No, there are no supermen - but there are training skills that can help you win, even against several. I know a splashing hands guy (no kidding) that cleaned out a roadhouse single handed. Saw the police report. He really did it.

I know another guy whose dad - who was just a tough f@cker - dropped three tough guys like they were nothing.

There are a lot of factors that determine the situation and the victory conditions, but to say it's impossible to get through that situation is just arrogance of another type.

Maybe I'm from another planet too...and David Ross will put the lotion on his skin, or it will get the hose again...

CrippledAvenger

01-08-2004, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by SevenStar
Crip, this is for you. This is gene chicoine:

http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/halloffame/html/215.html

Thanks, Seven.

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
But if all you intend to do is stab the f@cker once he's down, what do you really need groundwork for?

Insurance :D

I don't plan on my house burning down, but if it does, I'm covered.

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by sc_guy
One Iran guy in my school (260 lb) worked as a bouncer in a bar. One time he put 6 guys on the ground. He was training for one UFC that year. During the training period, he went to Gracy's school in Calif and challenge them. His Iran friends had to brought weaporn (a hand gun and a samerial sword) into that BJJ school in order to make sure that he could get some fair fight. Methinks either you are full of BS or he told you a BS story. I was training there during those years. LOL @ a bunch of Iranian guys coming in with Samurai swords

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 09:15 AM

Attachment: chang1.jpg; change3.jpg, etc. Those finishes will work mostly on corpses, unconscious people, children, and small women.

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Those finishes will work mostly on corpses, unconscious people, children, and small women.

You know what I dislike about these boards? I could take the same exact techniques you are talking about, put on a Judo Gi and call them things like Ashe Gatame, or Ude gatame, and all of a sudden they are now valid techniques :rolleyes:

SifuAbel

01-08-2004, 09:36 AM

LOL!!!

Whatta ya gonna do? dats da way it is.

Felipe Bido

01-08-2004, 09:48 AM

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
You know what I dislike about these boards? I could take the same exact techniques you are talking about, put on a Judo Gi and call them things like Ashe Gatame, or Ude gatame, and all of a sudden they are now valid techniques :rolleyes: I don't care what kind of clothes someone is wearing or not wearing. You ask anyone- wrestler, judoka, BJJer, or Samboist- who has done ground work if they have ever been finished, or even seen someone finished, with the techniques in those photos and they will tell you no. Whatever the style, the chance of finishing a resisting adult male who has an ounce of athleticism this way is extremely small.

ShaolinTiger00

01-08-2004, 10:00 AM

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 10:12 AM

Valid Technique (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/kansetsu/ashigatame.gif)

Invalid Technique (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=433824)

Ralphie

01-08-2004, 10:25 AM

I don't care what kind of clothes someone is wearing or not wearing. You ask anyone- wrestler, judoka, BJJer, or Samboist- who has done ground work if they have ever been finished, or even seen someone finished, with the techniques in those photos and they will tell you no. Whatever the style, the chance of finishing a resisting adult male who has an ounce of athleticism this way is extremely small.

I would agree with you if you're talking about two people grappling from the ground, but these holds appear to be accomplished after the opponent has been thrown, and is somewhat incapacitated. In essence, he's not being finished, but controlled. Keep in mind, the throw is not assumed to be on a nice cushy mat. The person thrown is probably not assumed to have been thrown in a position to easily roll and slap out of it. To the point, it seems you're predicating your statement from a sport perspective where both combatants have things in place to protect them, while the pictures indicate something else.

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 10:29 AM

Just because it is listed as a judo technique does not make it "valid". Ask a judoka if they have ever been caught during sparring or a tournament with a ashigatame like the one in that photo and they will tell you no.

ShaolinTiger00

01-08-2004, 10:31 AM

lol @ WD's desperate attempt to gain credibility..

:o

Ask a judoka if they have ever been caught during sparring or a tournament with a ashigatame like the one in that photo and they will tell you no.

NEVER. not even close.

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Ralphie

I would agree with you if you're talking about two people grappling from the ground, but these holds appear to be accomplished after the opponent has been thrown, and is somewhat incapacitated. In essence, he's not being finished, but controlled. Yeah , it will work fine on an incapacitated or unconscious person- or a corpse.

Keep in mind, the throw is not assumed to be on a nice cushy mat. The person thrown is probably not assumed to have been thrown in a position to easily roll and slap out of it. To the point, it seems you're predicating your statement from a sport perspective where both combatants have things in place to protect them, while the pictures indicate something else. Most throws, whether on a mat or on hard concrete do not incapacite a pi$$ed off, adrenaline filled, adult male.

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 10:37 AM

OK, I'll ask an honest question.

Knifefighter, how many adult males who have never learned to break fall have you thrown full force onto either concrete or linoleum?

Ralphie

01-08-2004, 10:48 AM

Most throws, whether on a mat or on hard concrete do not incapacite a pi$$ed off, adrenaline filled, adult male.

Conditional arguments over the internet can be silly, so I'll just leave it at your statement has validity, but has many holes as well.

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
OK, I'll ask an honest question.

Knifefighter, how many adult males who have never learned to break fall have you thrown full force onto either concrete or linoleum? I wrestled in high school and college. Many of the guys I hung out with with were wrestlers and/or judo players. Many of them liked to fight. Sometimes I ended up in the mix also, so I have seen many and done my share of hard throws against untrained people onto concrete, into tables, walls, down stairs, even down the sides of rocky hills. I also used to regularly spar with a group of standup guys who didn't have any breakfall training in a backyard which was all concrete. Sometimes throws take someone out, but don't count on it, especially in a fight. Someone is much more likely to stop and "catch their breath" after a throw in sparring than during a fight. I saw one guy suplexed directly onto his head on pavement and not miss a beat during a fight.

MonkeySlap Too

01-08-2004, 10:50 AM

Well, then you must throw like sh!t. I even know Judoka who ended a fight with a throw. Yeah, I'll agree most matches between equally skilled fighters don't end conclusively, but for the fellow who can dominate stand-up throwing there is a definite advantage.

Hey, isn't that how Frank Shamrock won one of his first UFC matches? With a throw? On a mat? Guess he didn't know what he was doing....

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Well, then you must throw like sh!t. I even know Judoka who ended a fight with a throw. Yeah, I'll agree most matches between equally skilled fighters don't end conclusively, but for the fellow who can dominate stand-up throwing there is a definite advantage.

Hey, isn't that how Frank Shamrock won one of his first UFC matches? With a throw? On a mat? Guess he didn't know what he was doing.... Like I said, throws CAN incapacitate someone. But you are stupid if your strategy is based upon that.

ShaolinTiger00

01-08-2004, 10:57 AM

So now a technique is ok if it works only against the ignorant? How are you planning on getting better at it if no trained grappler will fall fo it?

that justification is the opposite of why randori trains effectiveness..

CrippledAvenger

01-08-2004, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
lol @ WD's desperate attempt to gain credibility..

Considering we work out and spar regularly with the local Vale Tudo club, I'm not sure how he's lacking credibility, ST00. How often do you throw down with Shooto guys? How about MMA'ists with records like 31-1? What the hell have you done to determine credibility? When was the last time you stepped into the cage?

I like you, ST. You're a good guy whose advice on the gripfighting thread was greatly appreciated. But if you're gonna be a dick to my training partner and Shuai Chiao brother, that's just uncalled for.

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
So now a technique is ok if it works only against the ignorant? How are you planning on getting better at it if no trained grappler will fall fo it?

No ST, that is NOT what I'm saying. If you want to look at realistic self defense, it's going to be YOU as an individual whoi has trained hard against other skilled resisting individual going up against someone who is untrained and out of condition.

It's your training against those skilled and trained individuals that is going to give you that huge edge.

I know you've played with new people coming into Judo class, you know what I'm talking about even if you want to deny it for trolling's sake.

ShaolinTiger00

01-08-2004, 11:03 AM

Knifefighter, - its futile. they'll never concede to the reality because the whole premise of SC is that a throw ends the fight.

Well rounded grapplers know this to be utter crap.

A throw might end a fight.

A kick in the balls might end a fight.

A piece of fluff in your eye might end your fight.

A lucky punch might end a fight.

What kind of art builds their training methods around this much "hope" ?

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
Considering we work out and spar regularly with the local Vale Tudo club, I'm not sure how he's lacking credibility, ST00. So, take the photos of the "finish" shown and ask the MMA guys how many times they have had someone successfully use against them, used themselves, or seen someone use the technique shown. You will most likely get a slighty more polite version of the comments you are getting here.

BTW, I would love for that to be a valid technique. If it was, I would add it as another part of my arsenal today. Unfortunately, it just doesn't hold up when put to the test of fire.

MasterKiller

01-08-2004, 11:06 AM

Knifefighter, - its futile. they'll never concede to the reality because the whole premise of SC is that a throw ends the fight. Isn't that the whole premise of Judo as well?

CrippledAvenger

01-08-2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Knifefighter, - its futile. they'll never concede to the reality because the whole premise of SC is that a throw ends the fight.

Well rounded grapplers know this to be utter crap.

A throw might end a fight.

A kick in the balls might end a fight.

A piece of fluff in your eye might end your fight.

A lucky punch might end a fight.

What kind of art builds their training methods around this much "hope" ?

Boxers think a right cross might end the fight. They don't think about kicks or chokes. Where's your bagging on them? No one honestly thinks a single throw will always end the fight. That's why you train in rounds-- keep throwing the dude until he won't get up, either through throw placement or repetitive injury.

Sure there might be some seniors who can do this, just like high ranking judoka and greco types could probably do the same thing. I certainly can't so I train accordingly for my limitations.

Now, as for your credibility, you're dodging the question. C'mon ST, what's your accomplishments? Fighting Ralek? You wanna troll, or you wanna be a big boy and discuss throwing? How about your sparring partners? They throw down or you too busy uchimataing tomato cans?

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Isn't that the whole premise of Judo as well? No... while judo puts a premium on the throw (as does Sambo), they realize that there is more to it than that. That's why they include ground work.

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 11:11 AM

OK Knifefighter and ST00, I'm going to try to use small words and make this simple.

If an MMA cage fight is "black" and a McDojo 'punch me, no not like that like this' technique is white, there is a whole are of gray between those two extremes.

What this means, is you're probably not going to get into a bar fight with Cro Cop, and you're probably not going to pull a Steven Seagal against 12 armed thugs.

But if you TRAIN as hard and realistically as possible, you can probably defend yourself on the street. A couple years back I saw Angel Manfreddy get in a bar fight and take out a guy who had probably close to 70 or so pounds on him with a jab-cross. Fight was over in about 3 seconds. Trained fighter against untrained thug=shade of gray.

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 11:13 AM

CrippledAvenger

01-08-2004, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
So, take the photos of the "finish" shown and ask the MMA guys how many times they have had someone successfully use against them, used themselves, or seen someone use the technique shown. You will most likely get a slighty more polite version of the comments you are getting here.

BTW, I would love for that to be a valid technique. If it was, I would add it as another part of my arsenal today. Unfortunately, it just doesn't hold up when put to the test of fire.

I can't comment on the photos because I haven't seen them. (Work firewall won't download attached files for some reason.) But I feel the same way about techniques-- if you can't use a variant of them live then they're no good.

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
No one honestly thinks a single throw will always end the fight. That's why you train in rounds-- keep throwing the dude until he won't get up, either through throw placement or repetitive injury. Then wouldn't you think you would want to take out those "finishes" that are based on the theory that your opponent will be defensless?

CrippledAvenger

01-08-2004, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Then wouldn't you think you would want to take out those "finishes" that are based on the theory that your opponent will be defensless?

If it's one of the finishes I think it is, you're supposed to be stabbing the person on the ground. That's what I've always been told is the reason why we've formed a lack of a ground game. If you're really curious, I'd ask MonkeySlap Too, as he's our teacher and far more knowledgeable in these matters.

MasterKiller

01-08-2004, 11:21 AM

Then wouldn't you think you would want to take out those "finishes" that are based on the theory that your opponent will be defensless? Sooner or later you have to finish it, right? You might have to throw someone 3 times to get there, but eventually either they beat you up or they get worn down enough for the finish.

No... while judo puts a premium on the throw (as does Sambo), they realize that there is more to it than that. That's why they include ground work.So when does Judo teach you how to block a punch?

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Then wouldn't you think you would want to take out those "finishes" that are based on the theory that your opponent will be defensless?

No, not really. I've used those locks a few times in practice. What happens is basically, I'll get my throw, usually some type of reap (O Soto for the Judo guys) .

Sometimes I just get the throw, sometimes I don't, Sometimes I get the throw and still have the other guys arm. IF I get this grip, it's not hard to use my knee to get a straight armbar like in the SC photos.

If I don't get the grip or go down with the guy, I usually go into cross-mount and work from there.

I like the fact that depending on what happens, I have more than 1 option.

ShaolinTiger00

01-08-2004, 11:25 AM

How often do you throw down with Shooto guys? How about MMA'ists with records like 31-1? What the hell have you done to determine credibility? When was the last time you stepped into the cage?

I am a competitor. I compete and win.

( most recently winning an outstanding competitor award at a MD/DC/VA/PA/DE judo tournament outside of Philly after defeating 5 competitors of equal rank back to back and then finishing the day with another win later on)

I've tried to maintain an open-mind about SC but there's a point where you have to call a spade a spade..

I think SC is 90% garbage. A few small disorganized group of people jockriding an amazing grappler Ch'ang Tung-Sheng.

Where are the great SC players of today? *crickets* yeah..

lack of competion.. hardwood floors for training surfaces.. LMAO what a joke.. (you couldn't go 1/2 a nights practice in judo on a hardwood floor without seriously messing someone up) which tells me that you guys don't practice full out or hard enough and that makes me suspect your skills..

Comments like these found on another forum sum up my entire experience with Shuai Chiao people:

"but I can't help but note the contrast that when someone posts a "cool judo clip" it's of Judo guys pulling of a sweet move in a competition, but when someone posts a Shui Chiao clip it's of a demo on a cooperating opponent."
"Shui Chiao is just one of a million folk wrestling styles with almost all the same moves found in arts all over the world. What's amazing is that by applying kung fu training methods to it the Chinese have managed to make it NOT WORK. How the hell do you make wrestling not work? It's wrestling for christ sake. Well never practice with a resisting opponent for one. Shui Chiao is a great piece of evidence of what happened to Kung Fu over the generations. Practical moves practiced with a don't hurt/resist/question/embarrass teacher method, stop being practical or even recognizable really fast."

"When I lived in China I studied Shui Chiao for about a week at two different schools because I thought the takedowns would complement my BJJ. The techniques are perfectly normal trips and throws, they are just trained in a way to insure you will never, ever be able to perform them against a resisting opponent. Hell, I still use some of the throws from Shui Chiao. But the same throws exist in Judo, they just know how to train them. I could lie around and do cooperative BJJ all day long and do guard forms in the air. CMA training methods can make even the best art unworkable in a very short period of time."

Just over the holidays I TOOLED a Shuai Jiao guy. in SAN SHOU. I haven't sparred san shou in months!! and was able to trash this "8th degree" title guy like a child... he was so ashamed that he kicked me out of his school.

If you want legit people to respect SC You've gotta prove to the grappling communtiy that you can fight. entering tournaments, competitions etc. vs. others. otherwise you're no better than Chinese aikido..

I'm sure some of you have good skills. but I beleive that its just like kung fu, your system is so full of **** that it takes forever to develop even the simplest of practical techniques..

in the dirtiest pond even a lotus could come to the top occasionally..

CrippledAvenger

01-08-2004, 11:26 AM

Wasn't the finish I was thinking of then. Oh well, maybe next time I'll just have to wait to comment on the pictures until I get home. :o

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger

If it's one of the finishes I think it is, you're supposed to be stabbing the person on the ground. That's what I've always been told is the reason why we've formed a lack of a ground game. If you're really curious, I'd ask MonkeySlap Too, as he's our teacher and far more knowledgeable in these matters. No, it's not a stab, it's an "armlock".

So now you are saying that SC bases its fight strategy on the theory that you are going to be stabbing anyone you fight? That's a new one... I can hear the instructor now- "Ok, students. Make sure you all carry knives with you at all times. If you get into a fight, first throw your opponent. Then take your blade out and stab him. And here is the phone number for the local defense attorney that you should carry in your pocket next to your knife."

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 11:28 AM

That's cool ST00, but that's also your opinion. In fact, a lot of your own Judo seniors disagreed with your opinion of SC in this thread

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/DisplayMessages.cfm?TID=338116&P=25&FID=22&c=1

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 11:36 AM

* How do I put this tactfully....

Those guys sucked!!!! pitiful! so many ridiculous things wrong that I started to lose count..

Ridiculous footwork! wildly hoping, huge steps, crossing feet, odd crouches and bent over stances..

Raising their arms and elbows way above their heads..

lack of any decent grips. They showed a complete lack of understanding how to get a dominant upper body clinch.
and despite a myriad of opporitunities for shooting a takedown (esp given the poor clinches and elbows above
their heads) only one woefully miserable ankle tackle was attempted..

Total lack of off balancing.. ugh...

At first I was open to learning more about Shuai Chiao, as I thought it may be a gem in the rough, possibly a great
grappling art that Westerners just didn't know much about.

To me this video says, we know about it, but it's so bad it's not worth mentioning again...

I know my comments may/will anger you bro. and I'm sorry, as I think you're a pretty good guy. I'm just being
honest in MY OPINION.

RUN do not walk to the nearest wrestling/judo/sambo/bjj club and learn something practical.

"No sleeve grips and sweaty arms do make a difference."

Two words: Highschool wrestling.

Highschool wrestlers are amateurs (often with very little experience) and they don't have sleeves to grip. Still, they
look 1000 times better than these guys.

Three more words: YMCA Judo clubs.

Judo clubs are often filled with amateurs with little experience. Still, after the amateurs have been at the club for a
year or so they look much better than these guys.

You don't need to be a "professional" in order not to look completely akward. You just need to regularly practice
with skilled people for a decent amount of time. Sounds like some of them agreed with ST.

CrippledAvenger

01-08-2004, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

Where are the great SC players of today? *crickets* yeah..

lack of competion.. hardwood floors for training surfaces.. LMAO what a joke.. (you couldn't go 1/2 a nights practice in judo on a hardwood floor without seriously messing someone up) which tells me that you guys don't practice full out or hard enough and that makes me suspect your skills..

Comments like these found on another forum sum up my entire experience with Shuai Chiao people:

Just over the holidays I TOOLED a Shuai Jiao guy. in SAN SHOU. I haven't sparred san shou in months!! and was able to trash this "8th degree" title guy like a child... he was so ashamed that he kicked me out of his school.

If you want legit people to respect SC You've gotta prove to the grappling communtiy that you can fight. entering tournaments, competitions etc. vs. others. otherwise you're no better than Chinese aikido..

I'm sure some of you have good skills. but I beleive that its just like kung fu, your system is so full of **** that it takes forever to develop even the simplest of practical techniques..

in the dirtiest pond even a lotus could come to the top occasionally..

Yawn. You make a few points, ST. We don't have much competition open to us, true. That's why WD and I train for San Shou. That's why we're out there mixing it up against fighters from different backgrounds. We're going to be the generation of students going out there and fighting in tourneys. We're going to be the ones to bring Shuai Chiao out into the modern era.

As for not training on mats, necessity bro. We use mats now because we can get them. If I can't get them I'll get thrown on the ground. It's not that hard, really, you'd notice if you did a few Shuai Chiao breakfalls. Ask David Ross. He knows.

As for the skills, well I can't answer for anyone but me. I've only been in this game about 6 months and I can begin to be competetive with a an average greco-roman guy who did some training with Kurt Angle. I can now throw him and throw him hard at least twice a matchup.

I'm glad you're a competitor, really. Hopefully, we'll be able to meet up at one of David Ross's events in the near future.

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Sounds like some of them agreed with ST.

Kniffighter, that was ST who wrote that. I doubt he's gonna disagree with himself :D

And yes, some did agree, and some did not. Does the fact that a lot of BJJ guys think Judo is good and a lot of BJJ guys think Judo $ucks mean that Judo is good or that it is not?

CrippledAvenger

01-08-2004, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
No, it's not a stab, it's an "armlock".

So now you are saying that SC bases its fight strategy on the theory that you are going to be stabbing anyone you fight? That's a new one... I can hear the instructor now- "Ok, students. Make sure you all carry knives with you at all times. If you get into a fight, first throw your opponent. Then take your blade out and stab him. And here is the phone number for the local defense attorney that you should carry in your pocket next to your knife."

Nah, you misunderstand what I wrote. Let me clarify a bit. The whole premise for not going to the ground was that your opponent or you might have a knife. Whether that's true or not is irrelevant. Judo bases itself on the assumption that you and your opponent are both unarmed and structured its rules around that. Shuai Chiao went the opposite way.

Sure it means there's a glaring hole in our game, but the same could be said of Judo. That's why you have to cross-train and fill your gaps. Agree?

MonkeySlap Too

01-08-2004, 11:41 AM

Hmmm - the whole knife aurgument represents what the stuff is for - the holds in those photos are not knife controls...

Great ST, I'm very proud of you. I've tooled plenty of Judo players. Whoopee. Sure there are crappy SC schools out there. There are also crappy Judo, BJJ, you name it.

You've got a chip on your shoulder, you might want to just chill and brush it off.

But at the sametime, I will ry like the ****ens not to 'roll' on the ground. If yu've ever been in a real brawl - this is a stupid thing to focus on. Good to know for escapeing - but a dumb ass strategy for a real fight.

I don't dismiss this training you champion- just the focus on it.

You have to 'hope' that your opponent is unarmed.

You have to 'hope' that he does not have friends,

you have to 'hope' that you are better conditioned,

you have to 'hope' that you don't get lint in your eye.

Why rely on an art that needs so much 'hope'? Stupid really...

But then, not fighting against resisting opponents is a dumb ass strategy too, so I can see where you might find one dumb ass focus better than the other.

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 11:48 AM

I would just like to let ST00 and KF know that even though we're all having a lot of fun being @ssholes to each other right now, if either of you ever make it to Chicago, or I ever make it to one of the coasts, I fully expect we will be able to get together, brutalize each other on the mat for a few hours, and then go out for beer and flan.

Knifefighter

01-08-2004, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
The whole premise for not going to the ground was that your opponent or you might have a knife.
Really now? You are telling me that you are going to successfully throw a knife fighter without getting sliced to ribbons first? If that's the case, I think you guys are more delusional than I originally thought. And what happens if the SC guy happens to get the throw and is pulled down to the ground with the knife fighter?

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
Sure it means there's a glaring hole in our game, but the same could be said of Judo. That's why you have to cross-train and fill your gaps. Agree? Agree.

Mika

01-08-2004, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger

Sure it means there's a glaring hole in our game, but the same could be said of Judo. That's why you have to cross-train and fill your gaps. Agree?

That about wraps it up, doesn't it?

Yin & Yang, no perfect system or fighter, just different approaches, both strategically and physically.

And that's why so many people are trying to learn more from other arts and that's why all of us here try to learn from each other :)

Peace :cool:

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 11:56 AM

Where's the rule that says you can't train in both SC and knifefighting?

SevenStar

01-08-2004, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by MasterKiller

So when does Judo teach you how to block a punch?

depends on the club you train in. if it's a more combat oriented club, then almost immediately.

CrippledAvenger

01-08-2004, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Where's the rule that says you can't train in both SC and knifefighting?

None. My teacher and senior both do. :D

Anyhow, I'm not saying you go grapple and do a kahroty disarm with a knife wielding opponent, just that the art came from a time when more people were likely to carry a knife on them or not. It's not too hard to imagine getting into an argument, clinching to keep someone's hand away from a knife, throwing them, and then finishing them off as soon as they hit.

But like I said, I don't presume to be an expert. In fact, I think I've probably stuffed my foot way too far down my craw already. 'S all good. :o

ShaolinTiger00

01-08-2004, 12:06 PM

WD -indeed. beer & flan for all!

I'm not making any personal attacks here. I've got an opinion and I'm just not afraid to say it. I'm a skeptic... talk is talk, but I've got to see it to believe it.. or at least give me the impression that it works.

I've yet to see that from SC, but will still hold out some "hope"

;)

SifuAbel

01-08-2004, 12:09 PM

popcorn, anyone?

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 12:12 PM

That's cool man, and so you know, if you do end up thrashing me, I'm gonna ask you to show me how you did it.

Also, I DO NOT KNOW if this would make a difference or not, n=but everything I'm speaking of is ACSCA Shuai Chiao. I have NEVER had contact with the other SC organizations. I have NEVER played with or even seen SC from the other organizations. I have no idea if they are good, if they are not, or even how they are training.

We're trying to change that, but I don't even know if it will ever happen.

SevenStar

01-08-2004, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
No... while judo puts a premium on the throw (as does Sambo), they realize that there is more to it than that. That's why they include ground work.

I don't think that's what he was getting at... We get awarded ippon for a clean controlled throw that results in the opponent landing squarely (or close to it) on his back, right? If the guy doesn't know how to fall, his head may also slam into the ground... granted, that's not always going to end it, but the possibilty remains that it can. I've had judo guys tell me that the reason ippon is awarded for such throws is that they are potential fight enders in an altercation.

ShaolinTiger00

01-08-2004, 12:17 PM

potential

Abel has the "potential" to choke to death on his popcorn.

:D

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

Abel has the "potential" to choke to death on his popcorn.

:D

But due to the squishy and slimy nature, he does not have the potential to choke on his flan.

ShaolinTiger00

01-08-2004, 12:24 PM

So I'm in Miami over the holidays and my wife and I are getting coffee very late at a local spot (la carreta) because we've been running around all day and night visiting family..

the waitress asks me if I want anything else..

For no apparent reason the words " el flan por favor" fell out of my mouth and I ate it with gusto..

Water Dragon

01-08-2004, 12:30 PM

Back in college (Indiana University) they had this little joint that would make a pecan syrup that they poured on top of the flan. Best desert I EVER had.

SifuAbel

01-08-2004, 12:39 PM

My popcorn chewing method is unbeatable!!

side note: throws that pile drive you on your head should hurt.

Which Carreta, on 8th Street or 107 ave?

SifuAbel

01-08-2004, 12:48 PM

I have a solution to all your problems, how any style can beat any other style.

You ready , here goes...............

BE THE BETTER FIGHTER.

How you go about this is up to you and may differ.

MonkeySlap Too

01-08-2004, 01:00 PM

ST - get to an Indonesian restaraunt and order the Bibum Sumsoo (I can't spell it) - it's the stragest thing, made out of rice flower and brown sugar - BUT IT TASTES LIKE FLAN!!!

Not as rich, but pretty darn good. I think it lacks groundwork ;)

ShaolinTiger00

01-08-2004, 01:09 PM

Which Carreta, on 8th Street or 107 ave?

calle ocho. we were staying in a hotel in Brickel.

107 NW? didn't know they had one over there.. I thought the only other one was on Key Biscayne right after you cross the bridge..

SifuAbel

01-08-2004, 01:15 PM

No, its 107 s.w. in the kendall area.

KeyB's came later.

lkfmdc

01-08-2004, 02:06 PM

People, people! I am SHOCKED!!!!!

Insults being thrown back and forth, huge disagreements, sinking respect, rudeness

and I am not involved in any way at all! What is the world coming to? :D

I think the traditional approach has some short comings. I just strongly disagreed with SC_guy on another thread, but that doesn't mean it has no merits. I see some really unnecessary attacks here..... come on, we on KFO are not the idiots trolls of MMA.tv :)

Today, no one fights on a battle field with swords and spears and lances, and as much as you may not want to go to the ground, you CAN end up there

you may not be interested in war, but war may be interested in you!

Best to understand the toughts of both camps and incorporate their ideas and techniques, be flexible

a tree in the wind that can not bend, will break