Contact: How much is appropriate?

[JAFO]

I looked around on this forum for a thread on this, but I couldn't find one. Please excuse my asking again if this is a repeat.

I know that different organizations and instructors have different policies when it comes to contact in practice and in sparring. There are certain types of contact that are universally prohibited no matter where you go, and then there are decreasing levels of permissible contact from there, depending on their policies. Without a doubt, those policies contribute to both the priorities in training and to the types of techniques favored by the students, no matter what style of fighting is involved. When it comes time to start throwing down we tend to go for what we practice the most. The most common result of constant drilling is to produce the instinctual response.

My question is, how much contact do the different Wing Chun schools advocate in practice, and how do they justify their decisions? How prevalent are liability and/or safety concerns among the different WC sifus out there and what effects do you think those concerns have had on the current state of Wing Chun?

The reason I ask is because ever since I can remember there have always been the schools that advocate reality to the point that the only limitations were defined by whether or not the person needed to go get stitches or a cast afterward. I've seen it in the boxing gyms, among a number of the karate styles (particularly the hard Japanese styles), Muy Thai, and expecially among the MMA schools going all the way back with the JKD guys in the '70s. What I get out of this (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that these groups pretty much anticipate taking a bit of damage as they come in, and their basic philosophy seems to be to consider that the price of admission. Rocky Balboa leads with his face. Their intent being to run over the counter in order to get the takedown or otherwise drive through their target. If that's the case, the only way they would acknowledge a strike, even in practice, would be if it was sufficient to actually stop them. This, then, logically leads to the next conclusion - assuming they mean what they say, the only way they would yield in practice is after either getting hurt to at least some degree, or if they choose to recognize certain specific techniques as being sufficient to have caused the damage had it been completely executed, even when it's 'pulled' in the interests of safety; more commony those types of techniques are banned within a rule structure, similar to groin shots being banned in boxing. I've met more than one person who basically never 'recognizes' - it's either a KO under the rules or it isn't.

So when faced with one of these folks in practice, how much do you think is enough, and how much is too much, and why?

[Ultimatewingchun]

When you are faced with one of these folks in practice...

Don't practice with them unless you are prepared to hurt them - that's all they understand...that's the only thing they respect.

If you try to go half-way...they will hurt and/or humiliate you.

It's as simple as that.

[JAFO]

Thanks for the response, but I'm also inquiring about everyone's general policies on contact, too. I think I just got sidetracked when I was drawing the example from the one extreme.

[reneritchie]

There are several factors:

1. Young football players can wail all day and ask for more. Some older folks with health problems can not.

2. High contact for beginners can hide defects, where high contact for more experienced people can hone skill.

3. Different psycological makeups can result in different responses to hightened contact including severe trauma, fun times, and agressive retaliation to the point of grave injury.

You need to assess each individual, where they are, where they want to be, and then help them reach that goal. Level of contact fits into that.

[Gangsterfist]

We always start off by slow sparring. Which is very slow controlled movements. This type of sparring relies on your technique, not speed or strength. If my strike hits in slow sparring then I know I executed my technique properly.

Then sometimes we speed it up. My sifu always says its better to get hit in class than getting hit on the streets. Sure you will get beat up, you will get hit, and it will not feel good.

Some people that I train with (not all wing chun practioners) have gotten broken ribs, black eyes, and small fractures from sparring.

If you are gonna spar at near full speed/contact I would strongly suggest sparring equipment for your and your opponets safety.

Some rules we have are pretty much obvious in friendly sparring.

No knee strikes

No throat strikes

No groin strikes (this one is optional, I have seen some people spar and say its okay to strike the groin. Me personally I really do not like to play that game)

No fish hooking, or gouging.

Basically anything else goes. When we first started learning energy release my seniors, and my sibak's would strike us with the close range release of energy so we could feel how it felt. Its not really a sparring drill but it gives you a feel of how you will get hit fighting other wing chun practioners.

[foolinthedeck]

once you have contact - by definition you have it.
contact is the superlative

semantics?

maybe not, no contact is not wing chun. contact is enough.

[Brithlor]

In my school we only do medium contact with the necissary gear...

In my first martial art (not wing chun) we would get pretty rough some times, especially some of the higher belts who loved to "thrash" the lower belt people, who had very little experiance in taking blows or falling... for example, if you attacked them with a higher kick they would just lift your leg right up while quickly sweeping out your other leg (not even on padding) with very little consideration for the other person's ability to take it.

The only injury I ever really sustained was a broken meta-carpel (right under the finger), which, healed decently (but because of the break the bone curves somewhat, so it has slightly less structure behind it in a punch), but I still find it very annoying because it didn't have to happen and was just the result of higher belt people not having much consideration for the lower belts, and the sifu's indifference when it came to holding back those people.

Every Wing Chun guy I ever met was always VERY considerate and never had that macho attitude, even when doing heavier sparring... Which I am VERY grateful for :).

[Ultimatewingchun]

JAFO: Rene's post on this was a good one.

Brithlor: Several years before I got into wing chun I studied a Korean style of Karate called Mu Duk Kwan (basically just a variation of Tae Kwon Do)... I was there for one year. The teacher running the class was nuts - and encouraged crazy behavior:

In my SECOND week in the school (as a white belt, of course)...they made me spar a yellow belt...

Who knocked me out with a sidekick to the solar plexus....!!!

I couldn't catch my breath or get up off the floor for about three minutes.

A fine example of how NOT to run a class.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Brithlor
...Every Wing Chun guy I ever met was always VERY considerate and never had that macho attitude, even when doing heavier sparring... Which I am VERY grateful for :).

That is because any good sifu teaches WC is an art. The fighting and self defense skills you learn are the basic pay offs of this martial art. Once you learn the internal side it really changes you as a person.

[Brithlor]

That may be true... but it SHOULD apply to other martial arts as well.

Just seems like each martial art draws a much different crowd... Fortunetly WC (atleast all the WC I've seen) attracts a MUCH better crowd than most.


"Brithlor: Several years before I got into wing chun I studied a Korean style of Karate called Mu Duk Kwan (basically just a variation of Tae Kwon Do)... I was there for one year. The teacher running the class was nuts - and encouraged crazy behavior:

In my SECOND week in the school (as a white belt, of course)...they made me spar a yellow belt...

Who knocked me out with a sidekick to the solar plexus....!!!

I couldn't catch my breath or get up off the floor for about three minutes.

A fine example of how NOT to run a class."


Ouch :eek: !

Just curious but what did the instructor do after that? I mean, did he repremand the yellow belt, or just tell you that this is part of any REAL martial art and move on? I know you said he encouraged crazy behavior, but I was just wondering if it was out of carelessness or if he really thought that was what made a real martial artist.

It's always ironic how in those kind of schools most of those people get more injuries THERE then they would ever on the "street"...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Brithlor:

The instructor had no problem with what happened - he was the craziest one of all !

[rogue]

I've met more than one person who basically never 'recognizes' - it's either a KO under the rules or it isn't.

JAFO, I'm not a WC guy but I'll toss in my 2 cents anyway. I've run across that situation many times and I believe that I know why. Most traditional martial arts schools teach in an incomplete manner. I've rarely seen a traditional school in the USA that teaches how to hit with power, show and let the student feel what happens when certain targets are hit and then teach them the control to practice those techniques with proper power to be usable. If I know what a strike to point X feels like with a good percentage of power I'm more likely to respect the technque when it's delivered with control. This was pointed out to me by a Kyukushinkai friend who can hit like a mule but can and does stop his full speed, full power punch at my gi while sparring. He can also go a little further and really let you know you've been hit and give you a very good idea of what that strike feels like without causing injury. Pain yes, but without the injury.

Think about another art that trains this way, BJJ. They train with alot of control but the guy on the receiving end of the technique respects when a proper arm bar is locked on without his arm being broken.

Ultimatewingchun, that sounds like a bad school.

[Gangsterfist]

JAFO-

You bring up good points. There will always be that person who thinks they are the stuff. That same person will never let anyone else best them in class. The type of person who will flex all their muscles when doing chinna drills. No one ever throws a punch at you with all their muscles flexed ready to resist.

You just need to find the right sifu and students to train with. Luckily for me I train with friends that I have had for many years, so we don't even try to play who's the best game with each other. Well, unless we are playing tecmo super bowl against each other, then its no holding back.

[foolinthedeck]

god i love tecmo superbowl...

[JAFO]

Thanks to all who have responded. Excessive contact isn't an issue where I study now, nor am I overly concerned about actually getting hurt while working out with others. That's primarily an issue of trust and communication in my view. If you don't have it with your partner, you have to assume the worst.

My real curiosity, and perhaps someone will address this, is how the different policies for contact among the different schools affect the types of techniques that the students learn and practice the most, and how that in turn affects their resulting attitudes and performance.

On the face of it, it seems like when students practice their techniques on each other that they have to extensively edit it more when there's moderate or heavy contact. When faced with two options during unstructured sparring they would be compelled in some cases to choose the "lesser" of two techniques, because of the potential for damage should the other one actually get through. I would think that if it happens often enough that habits get developed and it could even affect the direction of training itself, possibly to the point of reducing the person to the crudest version of heavy stick/drive through the opponent.

On the flip side, the complete lack of contact could easily foster undesirable habits in that the execution of all offensive techniques and counters would consistently be pulled. Come go time, this type of person would have to overcome their habit of pulling. Demonstrations don't stop people, techniques stop people. It's a (maybe) more technical technique with inferior execution. I have seen this with some of the ghost hand crowd, where it only looks good when people cooperate. The clash ends after the initial block and everyone disengages to start over.

So on the one extreme there's the possibility and even the probability of a person who has lots of experience with heavy contact but not a whole lot of actual technique; and on the other extreme there is the possibility and probability of a person who has better technique but inferior execution. No fight savvy, as it were.

Your comments?