View Full Version : Gracie Jujitsu is the Biggest Scam In the Martial Arts

09-19-2000, 06:39 PM
1.The UFC was put together by Rorion Gracie
2.Royces 1st opponent was a so called champion boxer noone has even heard of
3.His 2nd opponent was Ken Shamrock,a shootwrestler which is known for fixed fights and now is in the WWF
4.When Rorion pulled out of the UFC,Royce pulled out
5.The Gracie instructional tapes are nothing but judo
6.Rickson Claims a 400-0 record,only 10 matches are documented
7.Rickson fights only japanese pro-wrestlers
8.Helio claims GJJ has been undefeated for 65 years when he only had 4 matches 2 of which he lost

09-19-2000, 07:11 PM
Wow, is that so? I didn't know the Gracies organized the first UFCs - yeah, that would be a conflict of interest. Hadn't heard this one yet...wonder why not?

Sandman2[Wing Chun]
09-19-2000, 07:12 PM
Troll, troll, troll, troll, troll....

Sandman[Wing Chun]
Wing Chun Forum Moderator.

09-19-2000, 08:00 PM
but arent these things true, at least some of them, i believe.

09-19-2000, 10:04 PM
If by the word "scam" you mean that they:
1.)Put their style on the line against all commers and usually came out on top.
2.)Took a single aspect of combat (ground fighting)and elevated it to perhaps the highest level the world has ever seen.
3.)Single-handedly changed the landscape of the the martial arts worldwide. And
4.)Made all of us take a hard look at what we are doing and how we train.

Then, yes, I would have to agree.
Nice post.

09-19-2000, 10:57 PM
WHY DON'T YOU ISSUE A CHALLENGE TO THE GRACIES'AND SEE HOW YOU DO. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

09-19-2000, 11:11 PM
I have no doubt some of what you say is true (in fact I know a few of those points are), but that doesn't make bjj a scam by any means.

Is Gracie bjj the Ultimate MA? I certainly don't think so. Does it contain a lot of effective techniques and methods? Yep.

And no matter what you believe, bjj is NOT the Biggest Scam in Martial Arts (http://www.ashidakim.com/).:)

bamboo_ leaf
09-19-2000, 11:57 PM
please quilfie world wide.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

09-20-2000, 12:12 AM
Gracie BJJ is NOT "The Biggest Scam in Martial Arts" (http://www.ironpalm.com/)

Master Po
09-20-2000, 12:32 AM
Well here's my take on this...

Royce pulled out of UFC but still fights in pride and competes in sport grapling. (although he hasn't done that well lately)

Renzo Gracie has been competing in MMA consistantly for years. He wins most of the time but not always.

Renzo is a judo black belt as well as a BJJ black belt. He has also done some Muay Thai to improve his standup striking skills.

Gracie Jui-jitsu is very similar to modern judo becuase they have the same roots but there are some MAJOR differences as well. Anyone who has done both can explain them to you.

Ken Shamrock is a legit fighter... I dont believe for a second he threw that first UFC. He was just unprepared. Look at how much better he did in UFC 5!

The best under 200lb MMA fighter in the world right now is a japanese pro wrestler (SAK). Even though pro wrestling is also fixed in japan they are very serious about training for the real thing. They are known as some of the toughest guys around.

Bottom line.. There is a whole lot more to BJJ then Royce and UFC 1-5. Royce was never the best, even in his own family, nor did he claim to be.

BJJ people still win a lot of MMA events. They also loose a lot. We are all human...there is no ultimate super style that will defeat everyone all the time

09-20-2000, 01:12 AM
You can troll all you want about BJJ being a scam, but the truth is whatever the Gracies did with the UFC or whatever....Gracie Jujitsu helped put alot of realism back into the martial arts. It made McDojo's start having to take groundfighting seriously and start teaching all ranges of combat or their students would go somewhere else to learn groundfighting. It forced people with their heads in the clouds to stop practicing their flying, twin, monkey bites the buddhas ass techniques and start focusing on simple realistic things like how to defend against a takedown.
Gracie jujitsu also brought out the almost forgotten art of Catch-as-catch-can wrestling (American submission wrestling) out of the woodwork.
Gracie Jujitsu is definitly the most influencial martial art of the 90's, and has done alot for martial artists everywhere in their quest to be taken seriously.

09-20-2000, 02:43 AM

You know all that is is crap.No responding no trolling.

Troll Killa For Life

09-20-2000, 04:41 AM
There are a lot of negative claims regarding succesfull people. Hear them out, weigh the evidence and then write them off. I see no proof in either direction. I can appreciate what the Gracies have done for the martial arts (saved them from complacency.)but no one knows either way. The boxer doesn't hold water because starting out, they probably coundn't afford Mike Tyson to their then "little shindig" Either way boxers can't wrestle or even kick so who cares.

8Step Sifu

09-20-2000, 11:01 AM
Aside from number 1 wich points are factual?You stated you know them to be true so please enlighten me with your premises.I'm not looking to argue so if you could please state your basis for believing the other 9 reasons Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is a scam.

09-20-2000, 12:29 PM
Who in God's green Earth gave this P.O.S. thread 3 stars?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Any rating above (1=worst) was too high!
This thread...even from the title...is a non-contructive insult against some people. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Someone gave this 3 stars?! You loser...this shouldn't even rate 2 stars. What a waste of time. This isn't helping anyone learn about martial arts! This is just bashing the Gracies. Why are you telling US?! Go tell the Gracies.

3 stars...geez...you amaze me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

What a waste of good stars. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"There is only ONE karate"

09-20-2000, 07:11 PM
It does seem that BJJ/GJJ is as legit, or more so, as other MA. The only disappointing thing to me is the high cost of training at a GJJ center. I can train Judo/TJJ and Kung fu both for less than trainging one day/wk at GJJ (I train 4-5/wk).


09-20-2000, 08:00 PM
I am enjoying all the responses. They talk about trolling and even wasting stars, but Valraven is the only one to address the numbered points in the first post...

I have seen all the UFC's and checked out the "greatest hits" tape recently. I had forgotten how embarrassing and repulsive it all was.

It seems that the main thing that GJJ has done is give belicose and frustrated highschool wrestlers a chance at being a "martial artist", but then they feel they can on kung fu forums denigrating traditional arts... I think they deserve this...hahaha

09-20-2000, 09:16 PM

I said something to this effect a couple of months ago and got the entire JJ board on my ass. At least this time I will not be alone. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And yes, the high school punk factor is in full gear on this board. This, however, is an obvious troll who just wants to incite a cyber riot. Fun none the less. Who knows, this might be a another "reverse troll". Aimed at getting the KF guys to come calling. Yawn.

Its dangerous to think your immortal.
sif uabel@aol.com

09-20-2000, 10:32 PM
you are a idiot.your analogy on wrestlers and bjj is extremely off base.Who are you talking about?

09-20-2000, 10:48 PM
Oh great, here we go again....

Jaguar Wong
09-20-2000, 10:53 PM
totallyfrozen, I rated the topic. I was going through a lot of the threads that I was reading and giving them random ratings as sort of a protest on how stupid it was to rate these things. No one is going beleive the ratings. If they did, then the people starting thest threads could easily rate their own threads to make them look more interesting. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

just my silly contribution to fine tuning this place.

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

09-20-2000, 10:56 PM
It's you are AN idiot. I see a hint of a struck nerve. Did it hit home? What is so bad about it? What anology? There is no anology there. That was a statement. Are you getting F's in college english? LOL!!!

Its dangerous to think your immortal.

09-21-2000, 12:12 AM
fakedown- who rolled out a mat? Why don't you go scoot around with your guy friends?

From forcing 3rd graders to say "uncle", to varsity wrestling "champ", to submission "fighter"...where the hello is the break in logic for ya genius?

There has been the type that likes to get on the ground and rassle since kindergarten. BJJ holds fewer secrets than you goons think.

Someone asks for a style picture and you gloatingly post a pic of Royce on his head. Where do you guys get off trying to put down those that prefer to stand up?

09-21-2000, 12:19 AM

You might want to edit that last post if you are going to use the English/grammar card.


09-21-2000, 12:24 AM
It was a play on words champ.
ano-latin anus for a$. Get it.

Its dangerous to think your immortal.

09-21-2000, 01:41 AM
Listen bro, I didn't verbally bash anything you choose to do as far as martial arts go.The bjj is made up of wrestlers statement is what I was addressing.Now Im a goon,right?By the way the thread regarding style photos was started by me.The picture of Royce represents what I do.Theres no gloating just pictures of my style.Maybe you were bothered by the picture of the guy gettin his arm broke?I dont know nor do I care.So if it's all the same to you cant we all get along?

09-21-2000, 01:48 AM
That's rich coming from you takedown.

09-21-2000, 01:53 AM
Sorry, "champ", my mistake. My ignorance of Latin is fairly obvious. The only conjugation of anus I was aware of was ani. Very clever, by the way.


09-21-2000, 02:21 AM
takedown- yeah it's cool I'm not trippin' too hard...

I don't mind armbreaks, but is there a way to do it w/o bouncing on my head for 5 mins first? I guess that's my thing with the "gracie style". Some of Royce's wins are smooth, but most seem like embarrassing near losses by way of a technique that uses the mat as a veritable crutch. On the street, alot of these sad "victories" would have our half-human brother raising his his hands and snorting in the ambulance.

09-21-2000, 07:30 AM
Actually, ano is spanish. No sweat "chief". It's a reach, so what.

Its dangerous to think your immortal.

dan downard
09-21-2000, 07:42 AM
Why all the animosity towards BJJ?Sifu Able and McQ.I would love to train with you two guys.Maybe we could learn something from each other.I have been checking out a local kung fu school and picked up some cool stuff.I bet if you trained with me you would pickup some cool stuff too.Why must all BJJ posts be attacked?I dont see the same reaction to any other arts.If you have differances with a particular person thats your business.But to attack the art they train in is rather silly.We have an open door at our school.You are welcome to come in and try a whole week for free.Nothing to loose and everything to gain.If you guys are ever out near Portland,Oregon please stop by and introduce yourselves.Straightblast Gym on Martin Luther King Jr.Blvd.Peace.

09-21-2000, 07:52 AM
Most of the troubles here stem not from the style but from those here that come to knock everything else. As if thier last name was actually gracie. The anti-kung fu propaganda machine is very real. If you read Moq's post, then you would notice that he mentioned how this was a reversal of sorts. The shoe on the other foot, so to speak. I have no problem with BJJ. But it isn't the end all be all as some here would have you to believe.

Its dangerous to think your immortal.

09-21-2000, 07:52 AM
I do apologize for calling you (even though I didn't know who at the time) a "loser."
That was uncool. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I just lost a star. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"There is only ONE karate"

09-21-2000, 07:59 AM

[This message was edited by cornelius on 09-22-00 at 01:05 AM.]

Jaguar Wong
09-21-2000, 04:09 PM
I understand your frustration, since this was a silly topic to begin with (it was still in it's silly phase when I rated it). But I wasn't really insulted by your comments or anything like that. It's always cool on my side /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I gottal say, though the topic has taken an interesting twist. Now only if we can see each other as people and not styles, then we'll be making some progress.

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

09-21-2000, 04:26 PM
Hey GrapeNuts,

Since you think BJJ is a "scam" why don't you challenge one of us and see how your "authentic" Martial Art does!!!!!

That is exactly what Rorion&Royce did, they extended the Gracie Challenge to the UFC. They proved that their style does w ork,something that most Martial Artists were not willing to do.
They tried to get the best competition but Benny Urquidez,Gene LeBell,Mike Tyson,etc. turned them down.Mike Tyson probably because of money,the others prob.the fear of being dethroned.
Maurice Smith was Super-Heavy Weight Kick-Boxing Champion and he was beat by Renzo Gracie.
As for Ken Shamrock being a fake,why don't you go tell him that!!!

` /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif ˇ

Paul DiMarino
09-21-2000, 05:04 PM
GJJ/BJJ may not be the be-all end-all of martial art styles, but neither is anything else. Anybody who says that it has nothing to offer makes it blatantly obvious that they have never rolled with a qualified practitioner of the art.

The artist formerly known as Ford Prefect.

09-21-2000, 06:47 PM
In the past year, I do not think there has been ANY BJJ "guest" that has done anything but belch and brag and curse Traditional Arts.
Do they teach anything technical about their style?

They show up with an attitude of a kind of bonehead arrogance, spitting insults and derogatory scenario. They put up postersize pics of their heros and pretend it says something about them. They claim that we gotta wake up and realize their couple yrs. in BJJ can take anyone. They revile the people who like to stand on their feet!

They seem to be mostly uneducated, vulgar, rude, illmannered, belligerent and mainly here to TROLL and cause disorder and division.

When barbarians show up acting this way and throwing out challenges, they are rightfully labelled "The Enemy... This is the type we all scorn.

They seem to thrive on this though, BECAUSE THEY REALLY ARE TROLLS!

If you really need to have something to prove, prove you aren't one of these people.

09-21-2000, 06:51 PM
Both JiuJitsuJedi and Knifefighter were always willing to provide technical expertise. So has GinSueDog. All BJJ practitioners.


If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Paul DiMarino
09-21-2000, 07:50 PM
I study BJJ, but don't ever recall saying that BJJ was the ultimate art or anything like that. It does have a great amount to offer in the area of ground fighting though.

The artist formerly known as Ford Prefect.

Dragon Warrior
09-21-2000, 08:16 PM
there is no question that the gracie family are full of great fighters. There is no way that Royce Gracie proved that grappling arts are better than striking arts (most of the guys he fought were chumps) but he did prove one good thing. He proved that size doesnt matter. He beat guys that were much heavier than him, and that was great for the martial arts. In fact that's what martial artist have been saying for years. People have to remember than the gracies are probably the best technician grapplers in the world. The strikers they fought were definetly not. I have much respect for the Gracie family, but I still believe that Northern Shaolin Kung Fu has the potential to build the best fighters.

Chris V.

09-21-2000, 08:18 PM
MoQ, SifuAbel,

i think you guys should try to distinguish those who actually contribute to the forum from idiots like confedi who post here only to stir up trouble. you can probably notice that the original poster of the thread never responded after h e posted his less-than-constructive post. though he might have brought up interesting points (nothing new really), it does seem like he is only trying to stir up trouble by posting something more or less controversial and then sitting back to watch the flaming unfold. such behaviour would seem typical for those that dwell under a bridge... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ˆ

Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then its just fun.

Dragon Warrior
09-21-2000, 08:20 PM
there is no question that the gracie family are full of great fighters. There is no way that Royce Gracie proved that grappling arts are better than striking arts (most of the guys he fought were chumps) but he did prove one good thing. He proved that size doesnt matter. He beat guys that were much heavier than him, and that was great for the martial arts. In fact that's what martial artist have been saying for years. People have to remember than the gracies are probably the best technician grapplers in the world. The strikers they fought were definetly not. I have much respect for the Gracie family, but I still believe that Northern Shaolin Kung Fu has the potential to build the best fighters.

Temptation tempts my victim to proceed, forward ignorence would allow retreat, you'd rather pursue death than admit defeat (Masta Killa: Wu Tang Clan)

Chris V.

09-21-2000, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Both JiuJitsuJedi and Knifefighter were always willing to provide technical expertise. So has GinSueDog. All
BJJ practitioners. [/quote]

JW and Paul,

You two are the exceptions to the rule. You have respect for other arts and don't make inflamatory comments. But, as for the above mentioned, they seemed to be civil only to other grapplers. They have, on many occasions, slandered and baulked other arts. Badger's last post is a perfect example of what Moq was talking about. A slack punk who can do nothing but throw out empty challenges at anothers expense. Spewing on about one or another of thier heros like its going to actually make a difference when they are in the hot seat. Overconfidence and cockyness can kill. Beware.

Its dangerous to think your immortal.

09-21-2000, 09:44 PM
Oh no, don't get me wrong. KF and JJJ would talk **** with the best of them. I'm just saying that there were many occasions where they were willing to post techniques as well as just crap. Saying that all they did was post how BJJ was the best in the world is false.

Frankly, I'm willing to wade through a whole lotta crap to get one good technique. I've had the privelege of going to allot of seminars around the country, and if they've taught me anything, it's that. Otherwise, I'd have left this board along time ago.

Who am I kidding, it beats the hell out of actually working. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Paul DiMarino
09-21-2000, 10:13 PM
Sifu Abel,

Funny thiing is that the trolls on these boards are the exception to the rule if you were to actually go to a school and meet some BJJ guys. I'd bet half of 'em don't even practice a MA.


It sure as hell does. I have a private with Renzo next Friday. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The artist formerly known as Ford Prefect.

wisdom mind
09-21-2000, 10:23 PM
you speak with a forked tongue, attack ideas not the person...would you say that to his face?

burn one

09-21-2000, 11:06 PM

I didn't mean to come off as an authority on bjj (that's how you seem to have taken my remarks). I guess I should've been more specific.

When I said I know a few of the opening statements to be true, I was talking about the Gracies organizing the UFC, and Shamrock going on to a prolific acting career in the WWF. No duh, huh?

I've got a lot of respect for bjj, and for the UFC (not that these two are inseperable). I don't personally believe bjj (or any MA) to be the "Ultimate Style" as many seem to think, but I would never call it a scam. That's the sort of statement that's made by overly defensive reactionaries. I think the system contains a lot of very effective principles and techniques.

That's all that was meant by my post. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

09-21-2000, 11:23 PM
Have you checked with Renzo lately about your lesson?
He had an untimely accident a couple of weeks ago and one of his arms won't be functioning for a good two months if he's lucky.

09-21-2000, 11:48 PM
What did I do to offend you in my last reply?
I did not mention your name at all!!!!



09-22-2000, 12:16 AM
i probably wont ever see his face so the question is kinda irrelevant.I dont smoke but heres a picture for ya.http://www.hightimes.com/Lounge/PotShots/Bud015/d.jpg

09-22-2000, 12:22 AM

I agree in the aspect that some people work hard at what they to best, what ever form of MA

Don't be a hater....

But this was funny

09-22-2000, 12:42 AM
>>>>What did I do to offend you in my last reply?
I did not mention your name at all!!!!

Don't take it seriously. Sifu Unabel is actually a 10 year old kid who has watched too many kung fu movies and has actually never stepped into a kwoon or dojo. If he slams you, its a pretty good sign that you must be saying something semi-intelligent......because he can't understand it and that is why he lashes out at those of superior intellect.

09-22-2000, 02:27 AM
Leave the Kung Fu crowd alone. At least they did not take up TKD.

You can take 10 years of Fung Fu, and I will teach a guy JiuJitsu for 1 year. He will beat the **** out of that Kung Fu guy, same weight, no problem.

Sorry, but reality sometimes sucks.
Too bad some of you all spend your life learning something that is not at the top of today's styles.

09-22-2000, 02:55 AM
Lol, after 3 years of kung fu I fought a jujitsu guy of 3 years (he was also a TKD blackbelt) and beat him no contest. Your argument is weak and I don't buy it. Oh yeah it could be that I also have ground skills and the way thet practiced, they never considered actually hitting on the ground "because it would always be locked and the punches had no power anyway". For the sport of it I used only wrestling with no hitting and neither of us tapped. It was a tie, the second I could bring in groundfighting, I won. I did get caught off guard by some of those gee chokes, but managed to escape. He also outweighed me by 40 lbs and was considerably stronger.
Kung fu is kind of a broad term. I do 8 Step Praying Mantis, maybe your thinking of wushu? The martial art I practice is geared for fighting.
My first day of kung fu class, we had a normal class, with punching drills, stances etc. Then afterwards all the students took turns stand up and as it went to the ground continued it to the submission. After several months of consistantly getting my ass kicked, I learned to squirm and eventually learned to apply the techniques myself. I would say that 1 year jj would beat a strictly striking art. Praying Mantis kung fu is grappling and hitting standing up as on the ground

8Step Sifu

dan downard
09-22-2000, 03:11 AM
McQ ,I never said I had anything to prove.Who are THEY?The people you are angry with have names and handles.If you got picked on by a couple of people from another ethnic background would you condem their whole race?I would just like to try and bring some civility back to this forum.You can help by not throwing out hooks or responding to them.It's really that simple.Peace.

09-22-2000, 03:22 AM
>>>You can take 10 years of Fung Fu, and I will teach a guy JiuJitsu for 1 year. He will beat the **** out of that Kung Fu guy, same weight, no problem.

You can't go around generalizing all martial arts like that. Either you are a kid who doesn't know any better, or you are a beginner in the martial arts who doesn't realize that there are hundreds of styles of kung fu and many, many styles of jujitsu.
Are you talking about Gracie Jujitsu, Ketsugo Jujitsu, Small Circle Jujitsu, traditional japanese jujitsu style's, American jujitsu, Machado Jujitsu, or generic Brazilian jujitsu.
Are you talking about Wing Chun Kung Fu, Hun Gar,
Praying Mantis, White Eyebrow, Tai Chi, Bagua, the list goes on indefinitly....

A more realistic state ment would be....."I can take a guy who actually fights in NHB competition or some other full contact venue (shooto, vale-tudo, full contact karate, full contact kung fu, thai boxing, judo, ect) for only one year and put him up against a McDojo Martial Artist who has never thrown a full contact punch in his entire 10 years and just does a flowery style that is all sets and theoretical technique, and the one year student of full contact fighting will win."

Doesn't that make more sense? You shouldn't generalize all Kung Fu guys, although it does sometime seem that the majority are the "Flashy" Kung fu styles that seem more concerned about how good their sets look than if they could use what they know in a full contact situation.


Paul DiMarino
09-22-2000, 03:59 PM
I haven't personally spoken with him, but my instructor was with him for a week after Pride. (they are good friends and old training partners from Brazil) He said that his elbow just popped out of socket and they popped it right back in. No fracture or anything. He's also doing a seminar while he's here and bringing some of his guys to compete in a tournament we're hosting. Should be fun. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

09-22-2000, 05:36 PM
as much as I hate to admitt it , I sometimes miss this sh.lol lol /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif roflmao /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

give it your best ,then give it more.

09-22-2000, 05:41 PM

[This message was edited by grasshopper on 09-23-00 at 10:49 AM.]

09-22-2000, 05:44 PM