Fighting

[Mika]

Traditionally, fighting tournaments have had rules, naturally. These rules have, of course, been designed with a certain style in mind. This makes perfect sense. Why would a judo tournament allow kicks in the head?

However, there have been tournaments which have attracted fighters from many disciplines. Some say the problem with these tournaments has been that they often favor some styles and not others. This is understandable as it is almost impossible to have rules which would favor everybody or no one at all.

And then came UFC and the like. Many of the fighters in these arenas had a solid BJJ or similar background. (This is highly debatable, but just bear with me as this is not my point here yet). This being the case - or for other reasons unknown to me - many of the fighters in these tournament still have a ground grappling background, and thus comparing those fighters to fighters of arts that do not heavily emphasize ground work is a tough challenge at best.

So, here is my question: in a tournament where the rules are not very limiting (as in NHB or UFC), how would a traditional kung fu fighter (or karate or MT etc.) best deal with a BJJ fighter?

The answer that comes to mind is to learn ground grappling. Well, sometimes that is not possible - no time, no teacher, etc. - but then again, how much training do these BJJ fighters have in kicking and punching? So, is ground grappling the answer, then? Is that what it comes down to?

I feel it is not, not at least in a be-all-end-all way. This is just what my common sense tells me, so I really don't know, which is why I am asking.

Speculation on this topic has been on-going forever here. I am not looking for that. I would like people with experience to answer this.

Please, keep this clean and let people who have been down this road answer :)

Thanks :)

//mika

[SevenStar]

yes, grappling is the answet to your question. When talking about MMA, you gotta remember that the fighters have evolved since 1995. That's part of the advantage they have, IMO, over TMA - they change. They change because they compete. They do what they have to in order to ensure success.

That said, Back around 1995, sure, grapplers kicked arse. Why? because TMA didn't train for it. It was all about punches and kicks. Even if their forms had throws, they (the ones we saw in the early matches, likely many others also) probably weren't training them much, and did virtually zero groundwork. Grapplers took advantage of that. They rushed the guys, got them on the ground and took them to school from there.

Afterwards, strikers started getting smart. They knew that they needed to grapple. So they did. Once they became familiar with it, that combined with striking enabled them to beat the strikers. Then the grapplers began to get smart - they started striking. (that's why you see grappler's striking - they crosstrain, usually in either muay thai, boxing or both.) And then the matches became a lot more even. Why? because they know how to deal with eachother.

"know your enemy and know yourself" - remember that? That's basically all these fighters did. Now that they know eachother's game, they use their main skill to their advantage, but they know enough to hold their own when they are taken out of their element. Now, it's truly a contest of skill.


As for what to do if you want to learn grappling and can't, here's some suggestions:

it there is no bjj school in your area (or can't afford it) find a local judo club.'

if for some odd reason there is no judo club, attend bjj seminars in other states.

In between those seminars, get some videos and a training partner and work everything that you can. Ask questions at the next seminar.

When I was in longfist, we grappled, but not worth anything (bad basics) I had had some prior judo training, and my friend ordered a fighter's notebook. We would drill the grappling techniques there, and things we saw in MMA matches either after class or on the weekends we'd meet up at the university's field house and train. We started killing the guys in our class - We were both killing the advanced students on the ground, and my friend even triangle choked our sifu once. They were great, but on the ground they're skills were somewhat lacking.

Are there any judo clubs in your area?

[Mika]

Thanks for taking the time to answer :)

Is it that obvious I am not just asking out of curiosity or for the sake of discussion? ;)

The local BJJ school starts classes in two weeks (http://www.tjjk.net/; in Finnish only, sorry :( ). They are a part of Alliance Jiu-Jitsu.

My brother-in-law is a many time national champion judo player and has competed internationally. He was actually the youngest ever (?) black belt in Finland.

So, I luckily have opportunities :)

However - and I will try to say this very carefully as this is a public forum and I am SURE I will receive feedback from this post - crosstraining has not been something most MA teachers have enthusiastically encouraged (for many reasons that are understandable: why teach someone really well if there is a chance he will take those secrets someplace else?, if the person studies overlapping arts the techniques might mix in a wrong way, etc.). The exception, of course, would be BJJ (and Vale Tudo, etc.) schools. But watching the scene, listening to you guys, talking to some people here...I am starting to wonder if I should at least give it a go...:rolleyes:

Thanks :)

//mika

[Mika]

Come on, y'all!
52 views and only SevenStar has replied. I know there are more of you out there that can speak from experience ;)

For example, is the only way of dealing with a BJJ rush to just roll with it? No way of avoiding the ground? Any experiences on that?

//mika

[IronFist]

Yeah, I've always wondered if say you've got someone in your guard or something... couldn't you just like iron palm them in the head and that would be the end of it?

[Toby]

Originally posted by Mika
For example, is the only way of dealing with a BJJ rush to just roll with it? No way of avoiding the ground? Any experiences on that?

No experience myself, but the consensus is that the sprawl works well. Apparently (I don't follow UFC, etc) some fighters do very well at avoiding going to ground. I may have heard the name Carlos Newton mentioned in this regard? I'm sure there are other ways to avoid the rush. Move laterally when it comes? I dunno. I do know that the rush is fairly similar to rugby union tackles. Some players do very well at avoiding tackles. Might pay further investigation.

Hope that helps.

[shaolinboxer]

If you are worried about it go roll around and alleviate your anxiety.

I've grappled quite a bit but I just don't enjoy it so I don't spend all that much time on it. But I think it's valuable to try it so you at least have some sense of what can be done.

You can beat a shoot in many ways...sprawls, strikes...once in a san shou competition I made a guy fall flat on his face who was shooting for a double leg by just running away for a second. It was pretty hilarious actually...you can hear the audience laughing on the tape.

[Ray Pina]

Learn it, manage it, learn how to defend it, then beat it. Of course you will never be able to obtain the ground skill of someone who spends 90% of their training doing that.

Every style has their specialty. The better man will win . This is not new to combat. Who can better adapt to the enemy? Who's aproach is more sound for the occassion. If size is equal, there's the answer.

This is what I have learned in my ground training: Don't try to be a Gracie. Bring your principles with you to the ground. In my case: maintain a strong structure/shape, do not extend. Control, then hit. Do not fight, beat.

When they go for the arm bar do not fight it, they have leverage, roll into it with them and you'll be back into your shape. Of course they have ways to keep you from doing that. It's your job not to let them. Again, better man wins ... usually.

[Ralphie]

As a CMA practitioner, a general strategy I employ is as follows:
1) dictate space and angle. This is of course dynamic, but if you can do this, you'll be able to protect yourself and apply technique upon your terms. It also is better than just thinking "sprawl", because sprawling is reactive not proactive. Dictating the fight is of course more desirable.
2) Don't think of yourself as just a "striker". Utilize a more comprehensive CMA strategy. Things like bridging, closing gates, controlling elbows and knees, etc. One of the biggest mistakes TMA in general make is thinking punch or kick, and not footwork, set up, safety, the opponent's advantage, etc. Some call this not working with a "resisting" opponent. That is, you just train for static movements, and not for evolving situations.
3) Be disciplined. One advantage many BJJ/wrestler guys have is that they are very patient. They train that way. They stay safe, and wait for opportunity. Practice with someone who is good at takedowns. That way, after you have been dumped on your A$$ a few times, you'll be forced to employ a working strategy that eliminates his advantage. You'll also find where you're making mistakes, and will *know* where and how to move safely.
4) Learn the ground game to some extent. At least you'll know what your opponent is fighting for, and learn how to protect and escape from the ground.
Just my $.02

[Mika]

SB, what, me worry? :D

Actually, I am not worried but very interested. I probably will take a beginner's class in Judo (or maybe BJJ).

I have never fought or sparred with a grappler, so I am curious.

We do have it all in Choy Lee Fut, but experiencing firsthand what people who practice only throws, takedowns, and groundwork can do, would be of interest to me.

Thanks for the replies :)

Ralphie, :cool:

//mika

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Mika
So, here is my question: in a tournament where the rules are not very limiting (as in NHB or UFC), how would a traditional kung fu fighter (or karate or MT etc.) best deal with a BJJ fighter?

The answer that comes to mind is to learn ground grappling. Well, sometimes that is not possible - no time, no teacher, etc. - but then again, how much training do these BJJ fighters have in kicking and punching? So, is ground grappling the answer, then? Is that what it comes down to? I could teach a good standup fighter to handle a grappler in a matter of weeks with very little grappling involved. The key is that he has to be a good standup fighter. Unfortunately, I don't think most CMA practitioners are good standup fighters to begin with.

[CrippledAvenger]

KF, what would you teach? Basic sprawl, guard escapes, et cetera, or would you work on something else entirely?

Just curious.

[Ralphie]

KF,
I've been doing a bit of vale tudo type stuff lately...I've been pretty successfull in regards to keeping the fight standing, but of course still make mistakes. What are some of the things you do to "handle a grappler"? Thanks in advance.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
KF, what would you teach? Basic sprawl, guard escapes, et cetera, or would you work on something else entirely? Obviously, I would teach a sprawl. Also, some upper body control techniques like the plum and arm control. However, for a standup fighter, the sprawl and upper body control should be last resorts to stop a single or doulble leg takedown or keep from losing control in the clinch. The standup fighter can learn how to use his movements and the grappler's to control the distance and set the grappler up for strikes, as well as to neutralize the grappler's takedown defenses. Like I said, however, the key to this is good standup striking ability. The strikes that are landed have to punish the grappler severely. While they might be able to hit a bag hard or break a bunch of bricks, most traditional martial artists cannot develop this type of power during the dynamics of a fight.

As far as the ground, I would not teach guard passes, but, rather ground and pound; emphasizing the proper way to hit on the ground. With the exception of the Russian, Fedor, even most MMA fighters don't know how to strike properly on the ground.

It is also important to know how to survive on the ground and get back to your feet, something that is not too complicated if you focus on the right things.

[tjmitch]

Right now I think Chuck Liddell is probably the "prototypical" stand up fighter in the UFC. He manages to keep his fights standing for the most part, and when they do go to the ground, he has the mentality to get back to escape and get back to his feet, not to engage in "ground fighting" . However, this being said, it also must be noted that he has an extensive background in wrestling, and IIRC, a purple belt in BJJ.

The way he does this is by controling the pace and distance the fight is conducted at, by having an excellent sprall, and not forgetting to strike from the clinch. Alot of times I think once guys get into a clinch they right away thing grapple. This is fine, but a few body shots , elbow to the head, knees to the legs and the body can get your opponent to give up (a tleast for a second) on his takedown attempt. Then you can get back to striking distance.

Of course, the best laid plans of mice and men...you are going to end up on the ground, dont wait til it happens to figure out what to do. Just a few times rolling with a good ground fighter will make you aware of the HUGE mistakes that people make on the ground. The equivilant of boxing with your hands at your waist or leading with your chin kind of mistakes.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by IronFist
Yeah, I've always wondered if say you've got someone in your guard or something... couldn't you just like iron palm them in the head and that would be the end of it?

Come on someone please answer my question.

[Unmatchable]

UFC = ***** ****.

[tjmitch]

Unmatchable, what does "UFC = ***** ****." mean? if by "***** ****" you mean a pretty realistic place and set of rules to test your fighting skills and thoeries then I agree.

[No_Know]

Iron palm to the head...perhaps, if you could reach it. Then is Iron Palm not needing swinging force? You only have thrust from like the front. then thereis do they need to be resisting to be a solid object as when standing and hitting down? Because on your back if you hitunless they were well bowed they have space to go back to absorb the force some.

[Unmatchable]

UFC is a pansy sport. Sanshou is better.

[cerebus]

Hmmmm, how many UFCs have you fought in? Afterall you would surely have an easy time winning in it since you consider it to be a "pansey" sport. Uh huh. That's what I thought! LOL:p :p

[Ging Mo Fighter]

I've always wondered if the UFC would become more "stand up" if the participants were allowed to bite each other, to release themselves from a ground technique (as you so often see in kungfu movies)

That being said, a "take down" is brilliant for UFC matches, but not so brilliant if you are defending yourself from 4 large bouncers in a nightclub who are all heavier than you...

1 vs 1 in a cage with weight classings is a perfect setting for a fair fight in a not so fair world ;)

go for the eyes, the testicles, and step on his feet! thumb in the eye etc etc

fast dirty furious fighting would suprise a good grappler who is not used to "dirty fighting"

[David Jamieson]

uh, ring fighting is ring fighting and street fighting is street fighting and never the twain shall meet. Period. lol

that which we are taught we learn by doing. How many of you guys have actually been in both for real fights and ring fights?

I know some of you regularly enter nhb type comps, but I would also surmise that a great deal of you have never dusted your knuckles on anything more than a makawari board.

Not to belittle anyone, but discussion is not the best teacher of these things, actual experience of them is much more beneficial, even if you lose.

cheers

[LEGEND]

"Yeah, I've always wondered if say you've got someone in your guard or something... couldn't you just like iron palm them in the head and that would be the end of it?"

We have seen guys in the guard throw tons of elbows from the guard. The skull is extremely thick. So u might be able to get a few strikes but it has never resulted in a KO or any sparring I've seen or participated in. Hitting the top of the head with your hands or elbows while on the GROUND equal not alot of force. Your IRON PALMING would be more like WOOD PALMING.

[LEGEND]

"uh, ring fighting is ring fighting and street fighting is street fighting and never the twain shall meet. Period. lol"

LOL...this is quite a typical statement made by many TRADITIONAL and REALITY BASE guys. Funny thing is real fighting involves punching and grappling just like ring fighting. Yet many TMA or RBSD guys want to say we teach the TRUTH cause we know how to deal with WEAPONS, with MULTIPLE ATTACKERs, with RAPISTs etc...
So who is telling the TRUTH?
Question is will you become a better street fighter by employing MMA tactics? MMA tactics teaches u have to kickbox, clinch and ground fight. It's based entirely on experience. Hmmmmmmmmmm...

[rogue]

The differences that I've noticed between, TMA, RBSD, combatives and sport fighters is more a matter of execution than techniques. Train any TMA or sport fighter to end a fight in 15 seconds max and you have a combative system. Putting a short time constraint on any art will weed out the BS techniques.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter

That being said, a "take down" is brilliant for UFC matches, but not so brilliant if you are defending yourself from 4 large bouncers in a nightclub who are all heavier than you...

I don't want to be on the ground in a fight, but the guard can serve it's purpose in a multi-assailant situation.

1 vs 1 in a cage with weight classings is a perfect setting for a fair fight in a not so fair world ;)

so is training with an unresisting partner...;)

go for the eyes, the testicles, and step on his feet! thumb in the eye etc etc

fast dirty furious fighting would suprise a good grappler who is not used to "dirty fighting"

Okay, let's think about this one - isn't it easier for me to gouge your eyes when I have you on the ground and completely controlled? How hard is it for me to throw a knee when I step in to sweep you? How about a headbutt? a kick to the shin? All can be done while setting up the throw...

[Unmatchable]

Fighting is funny. If you ever witness a fight you will realize that all fights are pretty much funny games. The people take it so seriously and lunge ugly haymakers at one another in the hope of damaging them or bringing them down. Often a good fight looks like a Jackie Chan movie. Grab any weapon in your disposal and smack them over the head with it.