purpose of putting tongue to palette

[bung bo]

why is it important to put your tongue to the roof of your mouth? i've read that it connects your microcosmic orbit. is this correct and if so, what is the microcosmic orbit and why is it important to connect it?

[backbreaker]

The microcosmic orbit is two energy pathways. One starts at the hui yin point and goes up the spine and the other flows down the front of the body in the center. Touching the tongue to the roof of the mouth is important to connect the two and is considered a point where the 2 connect I think, like positive and negative parts to a battery. The hui yin point , base of the tailbone point , mingmen , the point between the shoulders( big bone), the point at the base of the skull , bai hui , third eye , point above the the lip, and the throat are all important as well as the chest. Connecting the orbit is a little bit sort of like putting batteries in the right way connected properly , and flowing as one flow without breaks I think. Eventually I think the orbit flows together as one wheel. The Taoist qigong schools view the body as a micrcosm of the universe

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As the Qi flows downward from Bai Hui, it fragments at the cavity in the skull that we call the mouth.. There is no easy route through this cavity, unless we complete the circuit by touching the tongue to the roof of the mouth.. like a circuit-breaker or switch.. otherwise, the flow of Qi breaks-up and finds its way around the tissue of the face, then regroups in the throat region to continue its flow to the DanTien.. Touching the tongue to the roof of the mouth completes the circuit/loop...

Be well...

[bung bo]

thanks guys

[backbreaker]

I found a cool site with a description of a microcosmic orbit

http://www.atlantis.to


http://www.atlantis.to/meditations/meditation-techniques.htm


http://www.atlantis.to/meditations/grandcirculationofbreath.htm

[Ka]

Would I be right to say that its conects the Ren and Du meridians?

[Ironwind]

I half way understand what your saying.

I was only told that with your tounge to the roof of your mouth you have better organization than with it free.
You relax your neck muscles ( but I don't feel the difference ).

and does anyone know some good books that fully teach the concept and philosiphy of Chi and qigong.

That way I can understand chi in depth and might be able to improve skills i already have.

[Judge Pen]

You all get very fancy with your explanations. :D I simply explain to to help chil flow freely. Plus, I find it helps slow ones breath.

[Brad]

I find it helps me breathe better. I touch the toungue to the roof of the mouth when I enhale, and lower it when I exhale.

[Judge Pen]

That brings me to an interesting question. Do you all always breathe in the nose and out the mouth in meditation or do you keep the tounge placed on the palate and just breathe from the nose?

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by Ironwind
I half way understand what your saying.

I was only told that with your tounge to the roof of your mouth you have better organization than with it free.
You relax your neck muscles ( but I don't feel the difference ).

and does anyone know some good books that fully teach the concept and philosiphy of Chi and qigong.

That way I can understand chi in depth and might be able to improve skills i already have.

I thought that Qigong Empowerment by Liang ShouYu was quite interesting, but I don't know if it's very good for self learning. It covers a fairly wide range of qigong styles and uses

http://www.shouyuliang.com/books/qigong_empowerment.shtml

[backbreaker]

For most of the time I,m not too concened about breathing and just let it happen naturally, without thinking about it, through my nose with my tongue touching the roof of my mouth. Some techniques I do breathe out with the mouth. Depends on the style. Different ways in different styles to acheive the same result in the end. All qigong styles are similar in the end using similar principles but with perhaps methods appearing to be different

[backbreaker]

http://www.clearwisdom.net

http://www.falundafa.org

This I feel is an excellent qigong. It is a perfect integration of the doaist and buddhist cultivation , and put together well. It is available in most areas, will never cost money, and it's basically stripped down to the essence and the elements that are truly important; no unimportant movements. It has it's advantages over systems that are overly complicated with many moves( attaining the tao must be simple not complicated), but it is more in depth actually than many qigongs,( some qigongs are just standing, or are only focused on healing which will actually inhibit healing) and it's very good if you want access to more than just the healing or medical aspects of qigong. There are 5 sets of exersises with the last being a seated meditation set

[dwid]

Falundafa?

Please, go peddle that cult elsewhere.

Seriously, qigong is a practice, an exercise - it should be free of religious trappings.

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by dwid
Falundafa?

Please, go peddle that cult elsewhere.

Seriously, qigong is a practice, an exercise - it should be free of religious trappings.

You're a punk. Cult? In no way , shape, or form. Practicing the exercises each morning , and cultivating an attitude of kindness and compassion is not at all cultish.

Religous trappings? WTF? Pure paranoia by your selfish and human mind. Falun gong is not a religion or religious at all. Religion is like what people call a "dead" martial art ; the applications and energy have been lost. People mimicking a teacher or whatever , but the real skill is lost. The exercises are also not all there is. The mental attitude is more important.Faln Dafa is very popular and practiced by proffesional , clearhraded, sober minded people. It is an integration of Daoist qigong( Acheiving the tao through neidangong and cultivation) , and buddhist qigong ( attaining the Fa, or universal law, law of one, lord of god, whatever )

[dwid]

You're awfully defensive there, I guess it's a byproduct of your cult programming.

[backbreaker]

Not at all. You're awfully offensive(literally). LOL at cult programming. Paranoia

[dwid]

Not at all. You're awfully offensive(literally). LOL at cult programming. Paranoia

I'm literally offensive, as opposed to what, figuratively offensive?

Your programming is strong. Perhaps someday the aliens will come and take you on their ship, but only if you practice the Falun Gong every day.

[Brad]

That brings me to an interesting question. Do you all always breathe in the nose and out the mouth in meditation or do you keep the tounge placed on the palate and just breathe from the nose?
I allways just breath through the nose. In Karate I was allways taught to inhale through the nose, and breath out through the mouth, but I didn't think it helped any :p

[Brad]

:D

[Judge Pen]

In tai chi and pa Kua I always breath through the nose, but Hsing-Ie I was taught to breath through the mouth. I was just curious if this was taught specifically to different practitioners.

[Repulsive Monkey]

With my limited understanding thats whats wrong with Falun Gong, it cut and pastes different qi-gongs together which is usually a very dangerous area to get into. Different qi gongs do different things, its like acupuncture or even western medicine, you have to make sure that two different treatments don't contradict or contraindicate different things as that can have health stealing properties instead of health giving.

I personally would either stick to either Taoist or Buddhist qi gong but not mix them. Thats asking for trouble.
Religion and Qi gong are two different things however by products of both can indeed be the same. One can be religious and do qi gong but when they merge one must be extremely careful.

[backbreaker]

Actually the reason I posted falun gong is because it is one of the safest qigongs to learn. It is not overly complicated, does not use mind diredtion or mental gymnastics, and does not emphasize breathing techniques.( may originally had them, but they're not important and more complicated) I doubt the exercises are contradictory and the process is explained zhaun (rotating) falun. I think it's mainly the original falun gong system with a bit of daoist styles and flavor integrated. Also some exercises are probably in both styles of qigong. Mantras are used in both schools. The heavenly circuit exercise is surely not exlusive to one style or school. I have seen the exact movement( heavenly circuit) in section 2 of Dayan wild goose style and learned in Damo gong an exercise which is externally slightly different( only slightly) but the enrgetic purpose is the same( actually the purpose in these styles is to acheive a pure body, but not yet develop gong until later).

I think the movements are grounded and safe, and will circulate energy without running into any problems in practice. My qigong teacher teaches Kunlun wild goose qigong, Damo gong, and I've been shown and learned a little Quan yin qigong( has sitting postures with the hands very similar to falun gong). We even do a falun gong rightous thought practice posture after wild goose. No one's had problems. Wild goose mudra finger postures are very similar anyways. He has a wild goose group for healing at a church and has over 50 students. He is very successful in healing illness, way more than any acupuncturist or anyone in the area, some people hold him in higher regard for dealing with illness than their regular doctor. At that same church he or another advanced qigong student lead a falun gong group of over 20 or so. It's good. It's definately not the first style to cross train and integrate the two schools ( chen style taiji comes to mind for one). I just think it shows the expertise of Li Hongzhi to understand how to combine the two systems and where the similarities and differences are. I think it's mainly the buddhist( saints)
falun gong system being taught. At some point the 2 schools strive for the same thing and there are much more similarities than differences IMO. How far away are the mountains of wudang, kunlun etc. from the mountains of Tibet? How do you know thre is not a common source far back enough in time? Anyway IMO a mish mash of styles could be bad, but falun gong is no mish mash. I think it's " those qigong shams and fake masters" who teach mental gymnastics and focusing on feeling the qi, who don't come from a real system, and know nothing beyond qi theory and think qi can cure illness or give them super strength, who say it's cut and paste because it looks that way to them because they don't understand the real theory.

[backbreaker]

I don't think breathing is most important. I've seen a Yoga style which when breathing out, shapes the mouth and toungue like a circle. I've seen a section of Quan Yin which breathes out through the mouth similarly. I've learned a breath called cleansing breath, which is reverse breathing, breathing out with your mouth in both taijiquan and Damo gong. Have not seen a Daoist method that emphasized breathing.

[dwid]

Actually the reason I posted falun gong is because it is one of the safest qigongs to learn.

Safe for the body maybe. Safe for the mind and spirit? Don't know, probably depends on the individual, but certainly not the safest.

8 pieces of brocade is very easy to learn, and very safe for both the body (I have done it while recovering from major surgery and had no problems) and the mind (no leaps of faith are really required).

If you're a firm believer in qi theory, no advanced form of qi gong is safe to learn without an experienced instructor.

[backbreaker]

In my experiece as you get more advanced the exercises become of shorter duration and become less complicated( beginning exercises can and should be simple too though). At first you train the body to become strong with longer duration standing postures and exercises with more movements, and more advanced practices will use simpler sitting postures of shorter duration to work more on spiritual aspects likethe pineal gland and strengthening special qigong abilities. It can't be complicated though. You yourself have to go high level, the teacher can only point the way

[Gangsterfist]

This is just what I got from my sifu and from reading books on qigong. My sifu teaches us qigong along with our kung fu. We train two main styles of kung fu with my sifu. Yip Man wing chun, and yang family taiji. We also do grappling and some mma stuff just to get a feel of whats out there. We practice qigong in all of our form work by either doing budhas or Taoist breath. You can also do yoga breathe, but that is a bit more advanced and harder to do while moving and easier while stretching (just my opinion).

Chi is generated from your dan tien which is a few points below your belly button. It flows mainly up one meridian that goes straight up your chest, from the center, over your head, down your back, round your crotch and back up to the dan tien. Then there are other meridans that are perpendicular to this one and branch out through out your body. These all connect together and help chi flow through your body. Pressing your tongue to your pallet (with out using tension in your tounge or jaw) is suppose to connect the main meridian around your body. Also you will collect saliva in your mouth. This is refered to as the pool of heaven I believe. When you do form work or work out, or stretch you will build up saliva in there. The saliva is suppose to have nutrients in it that your body releases. Swallowing it after a light work out or form work helps replinish energy in your body. You can also swallow it when your mouth gets dry.

Another thing, if you train kung fu, and keep your teeth closed, but not clenched and your tongue to your pallet it is structurely benefical. If you get hit in the jaw you are defensively a better structure and more than likely will not bite your tongue.

If you guys are more interested I suggest some reading by Dr. Jwing-Ming, here are some links to his stuff.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/sim-explorer/explore-artists/-/artist-asin/video/1886969485/103-0072214-5150273

http://www.ymaapub.com/authors/authordetail/author1.php

http://www.dvdretailshop.com/Shaolin_White_Crane_Hard_and_Soft_Qigong_DVD_YMAA_ Dr_Yang_JwingMing_0940871637.html

[backbreaker]

If I'm not mistaken, energy can actually flow along the microcosmic orbit in both directions, Usually I think you start out up the spine down the front. When you start bringing the large orbit in the arms and legs into play I think sometimes the small orbit can reverse and move with the lage orbit which can go down the back, and down the outside of the legs, up the inside of legs up the body to the inside of the arms, up the back of the arms and around the face. Anyways touching the tongue to roof is just another manifestation of the principle of connecting acupoint to create a reaction like plugging in a plug or a line of batteries maybe.( Like you might align an acupoint in the hand with an acupoint at the hip area)

[Repulsive Monkey]

If you're qi gong does NOT use mind direction/intent then its pretty useless to be honest. I've never heard of Taoist Qi gong ever using Mantras so I don't where you came up with that one?

This sounds throoughly dodgy to me, reversing the micro-cosmic circulation can be a potentially dangerous act unless you've mastered the flow of qi to a high level, otherwise you can creates some bad side-effects by pushing qi up the stomach and front, like vomitting as it goes against the natural downward perystalsis function of the stomach. It can also create anxiety for the heart and lungs by raising heart rates and pressuring lung capacity.

Breath is important but not straight away but eventually it is key in any qi-gong, but more imporatnt than that was what was so readily disgarded and that's mind intent. How on earth can you get qi moving if the mind doesn't direct it???
Its not that as you advance you get shorter simpler sessions of qi-gong as such, it's more that the effort is less because it becomes a natural function, and in fact you don't shorten the session they actually get longer but occur without such an initial structured framework.

From what I have read of Li Honzhi it sounds like a total mish mash, I don't want to scorn what I don't practice, but why put him on a pedestal, when there are other more enlightened and older practictioners who do undertsand qi theory exceptionally well yet I'm sure are the kinds of people you would slight.
I have met a few Falun practitioners and must saya they stand alone in character and do not seem to be the peace loving liberal and open people that their practice professes them to be. They seemed very much like Fundamental Christians to me.
Of course I am convinced that they may be a misrepresentation of Falun Dafa initiates in the whole.

[backbreaker]

" ng hung ba gua sung, yum dog leung ma dong, jiao ji jo jung sum, beet so do sum jung, "( Spelt wrong I'm sure, and my teacher has a cantonese accent, actually I'd be interested to know the english translations) That'a a small exerpt from the 4th section of kunlun dayan qigong wich is a bagua circle walking set. Mantras are an important part of the style. The mind does not direct qi. The gentle postures and movements, mantras, and especially mudras( the fingers are like antennas) and even breathing methods in some styles do the job. Focusing your mind or obsessing on the energy itself or " qi sensations" is asking for trouble( even if you are getting some vitalisation). There is no need to rush or focus on the qi.

Okay, there is a difference in my definition between using the mind to direct qi to parts of the body and having a correct mind . Leading the qi with the mind around the body is either totally incorrect or begginning level in a legit ancient system. Higher cultivation has no mind intent as the mind is barred from heaven. Complete visualization is more correct. Seeing, feeling, smelling, tasteing, hearing, or sealing them off and having an attitude of kindness and compassion interally and externally is more correct than moving "qi" around your body. Visualising yourself as a compassionate giant as tall as the sky is correct, moving "qi" around the body to organs and stuff I think is not. IMO visualisation or mind intent is not mental gymnastics. Even in taiji you are taught to be smooth, light, agile, and be focused mentally. Not to direct qi to different areas with your mind; that's how people run into problems, it leads to being obsessed with qi and the vitalised sensation.




Dry heaving and qi gong problems? I think this is specific to training methodology. Of course I would think if qi rushes up the center meridian too quickly that's exactly what will happen and you're right. But I've learnded multiple stlyes which induce the qi to flow slowly and evenly upwards the center path to the throat. My understanding is that qi can flow both ways at more advanced levels, from inside to outside, and microscopic to macroscopic. I'd bet that it's the context and training methodology which goes wrong.( such as focusing on the qi, and not the cultivation systems)

[backbreaker]

From Wushu/qigong Kungfu magazine Feb/March issue 1997, From the article " Wild Goose qigong journeys west" by Adam Wallace.

Avoid Side Effects
"There are many different schools and methods of qigong. Some are safe and some produce side effects. Wild goose qigong is considered a safe method because it follows the tao. People in the west tend to overcomplicate qigong. Some become obsessed with feeling qi. Michael Tse says, " It really does not matter whether you feel qi or not. The benefit of the exercise will be the same. The obsession with qi can lead to problems or what we call ' pian cha' ( side effects)" These can include, pressure in the head, ringing in the ears, hearing voices, and experiencing spams when in a supine position. A frequent cause of side effects is learning from a book. Some people use visualization , for insatance guiding the qi up the du channel and down the ren channel, or to certain acupoints. Actually, when the microcosmic orbit forms naturally, qi can flow in either direction, and when the body is completely healthy, in a state of balance, all the acupoints will be opened. The problem with the way qigong is often taught is that many people concentrate on making it precise and accurate instead of relaxing, following nature, being natural, and thinking about sensitivity. Thus they miss the point."

Oh , and if there are any wild goose guys out there skeptical that I learn real wild goose, I have a video with Yang Meijun and her students performing the first 3 sets. They are the same as the ones I do. How many health practitioner qigongs guide qi around the organs and body with the mind?

[backbreaker]

I've seen a group of traveling falun gong practitioners who would go from town to town across the country. And another time a guy traveing from town to town in a brightly painted falun gong van came through my town.

I am in no way an expert in qigong.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I'm sorry but if you trully believe that the intent does not lead the qi then you must be at the basic beginners stage. The mind DOES direct the qi, look at other traditions too its so common a practice I'm totally surprised you have overlooked it so much. The western Occult traditions of energy work hold the maxim " Energy follows thought" as it's most central pirinciple.
I think this pays even more headance to the fact that you may have a fundamental misunderstaning with qi-gong.
I do understand with Michael Tse when he says don't bother about qi, but I interpret that as being not to get hung up on it as an issue of debate, internally or externally. However if the mind doesn't connect with qi then like the classics say it just sits there immobile, doing nothing.
Do you read the Taiji classics? What ones have you read?

Your last comment about the Falun Gongers and their van seems utterly surreal. Have I missed something here because I haven't got a clue what you're on about with that statement.

In fact re-reading what Tse says, I have to say I agree and endorse everythinhg he said, but he is referring to inaapropriately directing qi around the body, forcefully, I guarantee you he still abides by directing qi with mind intent because I have a past magazine of his where he does an article on the importance of mind-intent and using it to guide qi.
The microcosmic orbit can be reversed but only when the all the channels are open and one has a great control of the qi, otherwise it can provide great problems, many of which he has just mentioned in his article.

[woliveri]

Qi follows Yi
Blood follows Qi

That's it

[Gangsterfist]

I have to agree with Repulsive Monkey on this one. When you do Qigong you are not loose like a noodle, you are relaxed with intent. You do not hold tension, but still have intent. That is how I have been taught anyways.

[backbreaker]

I have not overlooked it( well, maybe a bit). In fact I practice it myself( but that's the first form of the style, yes, I practice one style which leads qi directly with the mind, but only the first half of the form, second half has none, only soft movements) and I would not be surprised if Michae Tse does, but from what I have seen it is not the higher level cultivation. Does the yi lead the qi refferring to specific paths? I don't know. I'm still guessing it refers to general intent and attitude. I think the mind is a tricky thing, and there is no absolute right or wrong here. But all the meditation I've seen towards higher levels did not use this method. Visualisation yes, mind direction of qi no( unless it all changes at an even more advanced level and goes back to mind intent). I don't want people thinking I'm bashing qigongs that do this or I'm saying that it's incorrect, just that it is not cultivation.

A Yoga method I have seen uses both visualisation and not. You start out using complete visualisation of the 5 senses, seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasteing, and also use your mind intention to create an intense rushing , super tingling sensation all through your body( It's hard explain, I didn't have this energy or ability before I read a book) and sweat pours or chakras( inside to outside), which then creates many reactions energy flows , paths , circuits. But then you seal the senses, cultivate an intent of unselfish love, and then totally empty the mind. The reasoning is that the mind is barred from heaven( cannot attain Tao, and is warped). This shows to me that mind intent has a purpose but not at a certain point.

I think falun gong goes beyond the mind intent from the start. In fact Li Hongzhi and the acsended masters of the buddha and dao school do it, since they are capable. It's up to you to practice the cultivation part. My story about the falun gong travellers was that they did not seem at all like fundamantalists.

I myself have not seen a more advanced meditation that used mind intent to specifically guide qi, only mental imagry or a cultivation of a certain mindset( which leads qi, but not directly). I look at it this way, if you do taiji standing pole 30 minutes with an empty mind and sweat alot, you gain more benefit than if you stand for 15 minutes mentally guiding qi around. It's obviou to me which is more natural and also difficult to train physically and mentally. So when Li Hongzhi says mind intent to guide the qi is not cultivation and is the lower level of healing, he is totally correct from what I've seen.

Why do I think people upt others on a pedestal? ( Doesn't have to be Li Hongzhi although he does not charge money at all, it could be your favorite rap star, or sports star, boxer whatever) Because they know they have gone through alot, forbeared alot, worked hard, and basically traveled through the pits of hell to get where they are and bring their work to you.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As for the mind leading the Qi, i am of the understanding that it is so simple as to be elusive.. My mentor said to simply put your mind where you intend to be..don't think about the "DanTien", for example, rather think "from" the Dantien.. if you intend to execute an application, BE the application, don't think about it..

Visualizations are useful in the early stages to construct "maps" of the new territory you are exploring.. but, just like being in a new city, you eventually discard the map.. Visualizations, rituals, chantings, etc.. are removed from the actual experience of living in the moment.. they are like the practice that "should" lead you to internalizing their value.. just like the forms will one day give-way to living in the Taiji Way.. Sure we can keep the forms for sentimental value, for the amazing tool they are for teaching.. but, at some point we will recognize Taiji as a tool for teaching us to Live.. (before you start assuming i speak from experience, NO.. only glimpses of "the promised land" as explained to me by those who have already been there)..

Be well..

[backbreaker]

One thing I'm pretty sure of is if you are standing in taiji standing pole exercise and you feel strong energy flowing along your inside arms like a wheel, that is much better than guiding the qi with your mind along your arms. In the first section of Damo gong, the first 72 movements use reverse breathing and I admit, do use the mind to flow qi along certain paths( but also complete visualisation) like the center path, and paths of the legs and arms and some health benefits and vitalisation can be acheived quikly. But after that, the next 72 moves use abdominal breathing and totally forget about the qi. The point is that the energy flow along the paths becomes automatic on it's own with each breath. Or even without breath.

[woliveri]

Yi in Qi Gong practice

1. Place Yi at dan tien or Wuji point to collect, to fill vessel. Before you can use money you have to have money. Collect. When a vessel or vessels are full they will overflow and cirrculate the qi naturally. No need for using Yi to move Qi at this point. Qi will go where it is needed for healing or balance, etc.

2. When you have a certain degree of "fullness", use Yi to move Qi for Martial Arts, Taiji, Push Hands.

Collect Qi, use Qi

Fill Vessels, Circulate Qi

[dwid]

I'm really scared right now because so far I've agreed with just about every single thing Repulsive Monkey has written on this thread.

I'm going to go wrap my head in tin foil now.

[backbreaker]

Oh yeah, like Michael Tse is talking about points of debate. I'm sure he appreciates your endorsement. The qi comes to your body from the universe, no need for tin foil. If you find a wild goose indtructor who says to use mind to direct qi let me know, I doubt you will. These practices use the movements and postures to induce the qi flow naturally. Western occult practices? What is that? If you think that the mind intent leading qi is what's important I think you're wrong, cultivation of the mind is what it's about, and there are safer AND better methods like falun gong and real taoist or buddha styles. So who here directs qi with the mind rather than the movements while doing taiji form? It could be there cause it's in Damo gong. For that matter who could even do the whole form with reverse breathing? Taiji is very physical and focused on fighting. Good at what it's for, but there are higher practices than Taijiquan

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I'm really scared right now because so far I've agreed with just about every single thing Repulsive Monkey has written on this thread.

i agree.

[backbreaker]

Again from feb/march wushu/qigong Kungfu magazine fromthe article "Wild Goose qigong travels west" by Adam Wallace

Natural Breathing
" Instead of using the mind , Wild Goose movements direct qi so that it flows along the channels, smoothing them, and stimulating the acupunture points. All the breathing is natural. Tse says, ' We all know how to breathe. When we are eating, or talking, or sleeping, we don't need to think about it. So the best way is to forget it; this way, it can occur naturally because you are relaxed. You eventually breathe with the whole body instead of the lungs. This is the way to become more balanced. There are no secrets, only practicing the correct method and learning how to relax. The more you can relax the more qi can flow. When the external body can relax the internal body can begin to work" '


This style seems very taoist. My understanding is that there are 2 ways to induce qi. Mental and physical. The physical has an advantage over the mental because it will work whether you beleive it or not.

Physical would be- postures, movements, specific breaths

mental would be- complete visualization using all senses in 3D, mantras/affirmations

[backbreaker]

I for one, am certainly not saying visualization or breathing methods are incorrect, just that not having them can possibly be a good sign and does not necessarily make it wrong or in any way lacking. Anyways with or without Yogic breathing or mind direction, Dafa is still Dafa

[backbreaker]

Oh yeah, there are 72 forms in wild goose. The first form has 64 movements. A beginner in that style is advanced in others.

[Repulsive Monkey]

You're half right Qi doesn't just come from the universe, admittedly Cheng Man-ching used to say as a way of inspiring his students that "The same qi that mobilzes the blood in the body is the same qi that moves the stars in space", but do remeber that we all are born with innate qi, that being pre-heavenly qi that we are consitutionally born with. The two other ways of getting post-heavenly qi are through nutrition (Gu qi) and through breath (Zong qi). These two connect to create Zheng qi which sepeartes out into Wei and Yin qi to protect the outside and the inside of the body. Of course we breathe more than we eat so a lot of it does get gathered through the inpnut to the lungs.

Of course the higher levels in Taiji reach the level where everything is Shen derived. This of course takes eons to cultivate, however the Yi directing the qi remains, however when the Shen gets involved more spontaneous facets of qi manipulation can occur (from what I've been informed).

GunnedDownAtrocity & DWID - thanks for the tense and fragile endorsement, watch out for the tin foil though, it could cause qi to spurt like fireworks out of your Bai Hui and incenerate all who stand by!! Ha ha. Cheers again.

[backbreaker]

Cool, RP. This conforms to what I was taught. The styles I've seen start out developing the post-heavenly qi, then progress to develop pre-heavenly qi, and from there develop dan and gong( shen) . And it's really all one process.

[backbreaker]

My qigong teacher has been learning the qinway qigong athttp://www.qinway.org

He doesn't really teach it because he recently started. He mainly teaches wild goose, but I've seen and been shown some qinway or quan yin style and what I saw was so similar to falun gong. You can't tell me falun gong is a mish mash, cut and paste, or made up, no way. Look at the exercises herehttp://www.falundafa.org/eng/media.htm

Look at the introduction sequence video for demonstration, you think that is an amateur or made up? This is not religion or healing. This is for real and so is the falun gong system. Unless you become a monk and learnd hundreds of movements I think falun gong is your best bet, and is an incredible stroke of luck. If someone's qigong does not resemble falun gong, or comes from it, or if they critisize it, then that is the most likeley sign that they do fake made up, non ancient qigong that does not come from the buddha or Dao school.

[woliveri]

BackBreaker,

What does your teacher think of Qinway Qi Gong? Has he/she related to you anything about the style?

[backbreaker]

I haven't asked anything specifically about it, but I get the impression he thinks it's very good, and he considers master qinyin a qigong master. He has demonstated some of it at the end of Wild Goose class, and it looks very intersting to me. For external qi healing he does an invisible acupuncture needle technique. Master Qinyin was actually going to come to my town for a weekend seminar that was pretty cheap, I think around 300$ but not enough people signed up, too bad, that could have been a good opportunity to learn from a qigong master.

[woliveri]

What town are you in? Have you felt the invisible needle?

Thanks,

[backbreaker]

I had the invisble needle done to me for my back after a class. I felt some energy and my back opened up and relaxed more, but it didn't really feel like an actual needle at all, and the effect lasted about a half a day, the class and practice helps too obviously. My teacher is really focused on healing but I'm not so much. I'm a little paranoid about a stalker or something:D but this forum isn't used a whole lt, so I am in , B.C. Canada

[Glimmer]

Just to bring this thread back to life with my invisible skeptical outlook...but...

What you say about 'invisible needle' seems to have hypnosis written all across it. In fact, I think I've experienced it myself. That tends to last half a day...still...might have healing potential I guess. :)

[backbreaker]

Myself, I don't beleive in hypnosis. Like whenever I had seen I hypnosis show, I would talk to the people afterwards and I volunteered for a hypnosis show myself, I was not at all hypnotized myself and everyone else said they were faking and acting for the show, I could also tell they were faking. External qi healing though I have experienced and done myself.



Here is a quote form "Qigong for health and vitality" by Michael Tse on page 28.-
- "There are many, perhaps thousands of kinds of Qigong but normally they are classified into five schools: Daoist, Buddhist, Confucian, medical and martial art. I feel that true Qigong consists only of the Daoist and Budhist versions. Daoist qigong cocentrates on soft , internal relaxation and steady, gentle training movements with postures moving from soft to hard. Buddhist Qiging is strong, active, dynamic and external in movement with postures moving from hard to soft. Both, however, aim to acheive an equal balance of Yin and Yang and "emptiness" of mind. So they are similar and most Qigong follows one of these ways. Confucian Qigong is rare, and the methods are rather basic, indeed simplistic. Medical qigong is involved with theory, not practice- it concerns the acupunture points and channels. Martial art Qigong all ( such as Taiji Quan, Shaolin quan, xing yi quan, Bagua zhang and Wing Chun kuen) all have their internal training that should not really be considered a seperate classification anyway, since any method adopted will belong to either the Daoist or Buddhist schools."



This tells me that the so called labels are not always accurate. I read on the internet that the first person recorded in history practicing Dayan qigong was a buddhist monk. It seems to me that buddhists seek the Dao, and Daoists seek to become a buddha, the practices can even be the same. They are all connected

[Glimmer]

Well, there are plenty of tricks associated with altered states & hypnosis which are linked to healing...this is often found with evangelists who apparently heal people on stage, only for their symptoms to return later that day.

Ever pretended that you have an invisible rope or thread and attached it to someone, who then sways and topples towards you when you tug on it? That is basic level hypnosis.

Derren Brown (Brit Magician) went into a kung-fu school and by suggestion alone, made someone feel like they had been punched by hitting near them but not touching them. He also got the guy to turn around so he couldn't see him, and the guy reacted to a punch he couldn't see or hear. He replicated the stunts that Richard Mooney is famous for i.e. no-touch strikes.

I'm not saying such things are not useful in healing, just focusing your awareness on the same phenomena being apparent in other cultures, under a different name.

[backbreaker]

Interesting. There are many mysteries, I for one cannot explain everything, and I know nothing about real hypnotism beyond the touring shows which do not work on me. There may be uses to mental illusions in fighting even, I don't know. I am as skeptical of hypnotism though, as others are of external qi. Just today though, I touched my sister on the shoulder and she said I left a tingling in her shoulder after I left, I had no intention of doing this at all, I had just practiced qigong though, and so had she

[Repulsive Monkey]

Thing is hypnotism is totally legit, and you can read just about any Western Scientific journal or text book on Psychology to realise that it has total Western scientific endorsements to its scientific/psychological validity.
Hypnotism isn't trick its a pychological methodology of suggestion to the subconscious mind when a subject is in a receptive state. No skepticism needed its proven. However stage hypnotism is mainly parlour tricks and superficial level hypnotism, and so is open to errors and not being so water tight.

Derren brown uses about an equal mix of hypnotism and N.L.P. for his stage magic.
And he's blooody brilliant at it too.

Invisible needle technique is most certainly not hypnotism at all. Its qi projection directly into an acupuncture point thats it. One locates the point needed, whether one wants to even out, reduce or strengthen the point depedning on the patients condition, and then projext their qi with guided intent to the point.
If you know how to do pulse diagnosis from a Chinese Medicine perspective you can check the pulse change to see if you have had the desired results straight after the projection.