Wu style, why is it the lean there backs,

[dre_doggX]

I practiced some forms, and I would like to know some stuff. personally, I remember feeling more energy from Wu then others why is this so.

[blooming lotus]

maybe its because they're more likely to move into a front kick (which means balance is better on rear foot) than say chen where it's more about the the flow of the lunge.....but can't say for sho

...what do I know

Ps : and what do I like ....All of it ;)




sorry 'bout the edit, computer froze

[count]

Originally posted by dre_doggX
I practiced some forms, and I would like to know some stuff. personally, I remember feeling more energy from Wu then others why is this so.
In general, one might lean forward to increase your reach or for a stronger support or to increase the range when issuing fajing or for many reasons. But your questions are too vague. Some forms??? Some stuff??? Practice??? Can you be more specific? If your teacher shows you a movement or a form, do they show you how to do the movement and what it's for? I think that would answer your questions.

I also can't explain why you would feel more or less energy from one form over another. My guess would be understanding alignment better than others. Any correct practice leaves you more energetic than incorrect practice. The Hard/Smart theory applies here. Everything is hard at first and requires more energy. Especially if you have to figure it out for yourself. Once a good teacher shows you correctly you still have to work hard, but you can work both hard and smart. Eventually you should be able to just work smart. ;)

[dre_doggX]

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/mar92/yangvswutaichi/yangvswutaichi.html

this made things easier for me to understand.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It was my instruction that the reason the back is maintained perpendicular to the ground is that it represents a neutral position.. from which you could either attack or retreat.. Also, it is the position which receives the least burden of gravity, we use less of our energy (conserve) to maintain this position.. leaning requires that we struggle with the effects of gravity, it also causes tension in the sacrum and MingMen..

As for transferring power along the heel,hip,spine line.. the lean is more external.. the perpendicular back is used as an axis around which the body-mass revolves/spins to generate circular energy... as the whole body mass moves forward it has kinetic/inertial energy, then, as the body mass spins around the already moving spinal axis it adds spinning/circular energy to the inertial energy, finally, the "wave" generated by the rear-leg exploding at the final 1-2 inches of forward movement snaps the alignment into place with the whipping action that sets up the path for Qi to excite the explosive muscular action that results in expression of "Fajing".. Now, if you are so fortunate as to be able to produce this intricate set of movements at will, you have my admiration.. i am hitting it at 30-40% of the trys, but with diligent practice i hope to improve.. In respect to the lean, it may indeed be evident at the extreme of the Fajing expression but it is the "crack of the whip", i sense that it is more important to practice the movements leading up to the micro-second lean/crack, they are what make the lean work.. the lean is an "appearance" of the wave-like motion..

Just another perspective.. Be well...

[count]

You make a good point about micro seconds of which photographs are composed of. I feel that some folks look at photo's in an attempt to understand something like tai chi and never really see the important parts. Most photo's you see are not the function point in application or power issuing. They are usually the final pose a subject may hold for the purpose of looking good.

I understand what you are saying about the advantages and strengths of keeping the spine vertical. I am of that school of thought myself. But try to push a car that way and see how far you get.

In Wu Jian Quan's Tai Chi, power is issued sometimes by bridging the distance with a forward, lean, if you must put it that way, and bringing the hips straight under at the function point. At that point the spine becomes vertical.

It's really just another perspective. ;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings.. (humble bows)..


I understand what you are saying about the advantages and strengths of keeping the spine vertical. I am of that school of thought myself. But try to push a car that way and see how far you get.

Precisely.. the pushing of a car illustrates the point of power, maximum issuing .. in Taiji, that point (the lean) lasts only a micro-second and is dependent on the correct path to get there, it is the furthest extension of the "whip" and it is not a static pose but a point on the arc of transition..

We frequently "push" a wall for ten breaths, we start with light touch and with each breath we adjust alignment and add energy until we have maximum push along good alignment.. this is a leaning posture that finds the best way to project energy forward into a target and downward into the ground for rooting (it represents the "furthest extension of the whip").. in a while, after the students get accustomed to this exercise, we will begin to narrow the stance little by little while maintaining power.. a good way to experience alignment refinements and build toward a smaller frame with good power..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

This is the best question I have seen asked here, and my master just showed this too me not too long ago.

Unfortunately, giving you the answer here, you probbaly won't believe.

Think push hands: back and forth, right.

The way most guys go back and receive, they jam themselves. If you break the rules and don't relax and stiff arm the guy, he can't come back because he's caught on himself.

Now if you "lean back" you can lift the force. Of course, there are internal tricks involved. You don't put the pressure on your back knee, but your back thigh, arcing it like a bow and arrow. The back is still straight, in that you tuck the Ming Men like always.

Very hard to explain here, but it comes from playing with guys who don't relax. It's amazing how a lot of taiji can be beaten if you use strenght and not relax. So why relax?

Of course relax is good, but do you get the point? A lot of guys are "relax, relax, relax." Of course you move me. But can you move me if I don't?

This way you can, and it works well for throws. Receive the guys energy, maintain a push agnle, let him extend, throw or break.

I think you are in NY, no? Maybe if you have free time stop by my master's taiji class or we can meet up in the park one day and get lunch afterwards.

[dre_doggX]

Evolutionfist or anybody, have any insight of sinking??

[Ray Pina]

EDIT: changed "calf" to thigh. It's the thigh where you should feel it.

[dre_doggX]

elaborate

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Why relax? Try to push a large bag of rice (50lbs or more).. the weight is "sunk", it's relaxed, and it's difficult to push.. it simply yields to the push while maintaining its base.. if that same shape was solid (not flexible, not relaxed) it would be much easier to push, a push at any point affects the whole structure, that's what happens when we are stiff... The bag of rice also demonstrates the sinking principle, the weight "sinks" to the bottom.. we can learn from a bag of rice....

Be well...

[count]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Why relax? Try to push a large bag of rice (50lbs or more).. the weight is "sunk", it's relaxed, and it's difficult to push.. it simply yields to the push while maintaining its base.. if that same shape was solid (not flexible, not relaxed) it would be much easier to push, a push at any point affects the whole structure, that's what happens when we are stiff... The bag of rice also demonstrates the sinking principle, the weight "sinks" to the bottom.. we can learn from a bag of rice....
*bows*
Excellent.
*bows again*

I think EF Ray's other point is one of offense though. And with his muscle mass, he makes sense. But I think the error is in mistaking relax for being dead all over.

[Ray Pina]

Just playing devil's advocate. Of course when fighting you have to be relaxed. When you tense up, that is when you can be manipulated, collapsed, ect.

But at the same time I think there is tooo muc emphasis on relax at times. It's taiji. It is soft, but it is hard too. If fact, how good you are is how hard you can get, how long you can stay hard, how quick you can get sorft, stay soft and then get hard again.

You can close your door by being soft, but you can't open mine. At the same time, you may be able to open my door by being hard, but then can't hit ... for that you have to get soft again. Taiji is beautiful, and all martial arts should strive to obtain that state.

How much of that do I bring into actual free fighting. Embarassingly, maybe 60 percent right now. 80 percent in chi sau. Though 30, I still consider myself young and know there's a long way to go.

As for the leaning back, it's one of those things that are too difficult to explain without photos. Leaning like this : \ against force like <----- doesn't make sense at first. But when you bow the leg and keep the back straight, you are actually in a postion to lift the extended man or throw him.

This is something I recently learned and goes against things I've been tought in the past -- but only on the surface. Tucking the back, everything is still straight actually -- and it's a much stronger position than it looks. Granted, not one I prefer to be in: I think of it as a get out of jail free card when I messed up.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I often use the analogy of a sine wave and its relationship to the baseline (look at the dollar symbol on your keyboard).. being yin and yang on one side or the other of the baseline.. near the center of the dollar symbol you can see the "leaning back" scenario, the yin (empty).. but, it must be balanced with a yang base (full).. so even the leaning back can satisfy the perpendicular principle considering the balance of yin and yang along a perpendicular line.. it should be noted that whenever some schools of thought draw a straight line from heel to head in a forward leaning posture the external elements needed to maintain this posture are the same elements that allow the use of minimal force to topple the posture sideways.. that is to apply circular energy to the side of the forward leaning posture..

As for the "hard" posture during the attack, i think that may be a misconception.. whenever attacking (pushing/hitting). the "relaxed" reference can be compared to a balloon or spring.. during impact (which is devastating due to the physics of speed and mass) the attackers' frame absorbs resistance energy, like compressing a spring or squeezing a balloon.. then, as the stored energy from the compression exceeds the resistance (a very quick exchange of energies) there is a secondary explosion of the excess energy being returned to the resistance (i'm talking microseconds in the speed of the exchange).. i don't suspect that we are talking classic "external hardness", Taiji hardness is just adjusting the "spring-factor" to more quickly return the resistance.. kind of like hitting someone with a basketball, there's the sting of impact and the thud of stored energy being released.. the basketball is "relaxed" in this reference...

Yeah, i see what you mean.. words are difficult to convey experiences.. Be well...

[bamboo_ leaf]

bob, said it better. ;)

leaf

[backbreaker]

I have the impression TaichiBob consistently is on the correct. I like the analogy of the rice bag(looseness,sinking)
and I find the idea of compression useful. I think movements should be small and should affect the opponents structure and balance( like turning the waist and sinking). The way I learnred taichi there was no obvious leaning in the appearrance of the form. Maybe some slight internal leans or different subtle alignments. I think if you use strength while pushing forward while leaning without getting your opponents structure, IMO you would be open to a knee to the face. Leaning might have applications but I don't really know them

[Shooter]

My instructor explained leaning like this; "If you lean on a wall and it falls, you don't"

From the book, Yang's Secret Family Transmissions; "I'm not a meat-hook! Quit hanging on me"

[bamboo_ leaf]

if you look at what TCB wrote it’s not a lean more like the physical expression of the wave.

Next time you push and are uprooted think of how it felt. Was it a local push or did you feel as though the floor dropped out, or did your intention to push suddenly fall into a hole.

Shooter’s analogy of the wall supports the idea of not using force develped from the bones.

[count]

Originally posted by delibandit
Just my two-cents worth. I think the lean that you mention is characteristic of the Southern Wu Style players. Northern (Beijing) Style Wu keeps the back straight. I don't know the reason for the lean, but it's possible that this characteristic developed as a result of an earlier disciple's bad habits and was imitatated by his students, eventually becoming the accepted standard in that branch of the Wu family. This was the explanation given by my Northern Wu style teacher.

UMmmm, No, but I'll give you a penny change and keep one cent for the effort.:D

[Paul_E]

I've never practiced Northern Wu but I was under the impression that one of the big names in that branch is Wang Peishing. Someone posted a clip of him on one of the major forums doing tai chi and he clearly leans. Also, you can find plenty of pictures of Wu Jianquan doing the lean so the hypothesis that it was a bad habit picked up from a student is also unfounded. I am no where near proficient at southern wu but the way we practiced it, the lean would occur as a result of the straightening of the back leg (the ox plow stance). That way you could more easily feel the transfer of force from the leg to the hands or shoulders, etc. Once the back leg bends or the there is a postural change the back becomes perpendicular to the ground again.

Paul

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The leaning you describe is a linear result of rear leg extension.. this is evident in the "wave-like" vertical motion of the spine.. the general assertion is that the same leg extension can concurrently produce a horizontal twisting of the hips/spine/shoulders so as to increase the kinetic energy of the push/strike in geometric proportions.. of course, the coordination needed to orchestrate such graceful power is quite elusive and requires much practice..

Be well..

[Paul_E]

"the general assertion is that the same leg extension can concurrently produce a horizontal twisting of the hips/spine/shoulders so as to increase the kinetic energy of the push/strike in geometric proportions"

Could you elaborate on this explanation. Better yet, I'm not ashamed to ask you to dumb it down for me. Man, I can't even tell if you're supporting or arguing against the lean. Sorry

Thanks

[woliveri]

If anyone is in the SoCal area and interested. I found this guy to be one of the few "real deals" I have ever come across.


http://www.wustyletaichi.com/

[crumble]

Originally posted by Shooter
My instructor explained leaning like this; "If you lean on a wall and it falls, you don't"

From the book, Yang's Secret Family Transmissions; "I'm not a meat-hook! Quit hanging on me"

I agree with this answer the most so far. (Although I think Evolution Fist has something to say, I just don't get it yet ??? E-fist, could you take another stab at explaining?).

I was told that the lean is the final position that comes from a forward punch or push that uses body wieght and gravity. In full speed it would look similar to a hsing i punch. (Of course the form is done at less than fighting speed.)

The lean isn't a lean in the sense of "resting on" or "hanging on". The back leg counterbalances the torso so that the wieght is going straight down into the foot. (Similar how in taiji sword forms the leaning thrust forward is balance by the rear leg straightening backward).

-c