Buying wooden dummy this week, last minute suggestions welcomed!

[Brithlor]

I made a post a few months ago asking for wooden dummy suggestions...

But now the time has come! This week I'm going to be buying a wooden dummy after quite a bit of research, and I'm sure now that I'll be sticking with wing chun for the foreseable future... and I just want last minute suggestions if anyone is willing :).

The most obvious suggestion would be: If you have a dummy where did you get it from? How much did you pay? Is it a good dummy or not?

I'm going to be contacting as many places as possible to get more information, but I think I know where I'll be getting my dummy from.

However, please post ANY information you have about any wooden dummy retailers... whether its good or bad experiance, the more I know the better!

Thank you very much :).

[JAFO]

I got mine from the Great Lion Company. I know at least four other people who also got theirs from here, including one guy who ordered the JKD version (he had remorse about that later).

http://www.woodendummy.net

Be aware, he likes to set the arms up with very little play. The last one one of us ordered, we asked for another 1/4" of space in the holes so the arms would have more play. He countered saying 1/8" was all we needed for that. He was right. It worked great. His normal deal is an oak trunk with oak arms, although he'll do other woods if he can come up with them. We generally choose maple arms, again for liveliness.

The other thing is to make sure you specify how you want your leg. I didn't, and he sent a leg that came out about 16 inches and then dropped vertical all the way to the floor, ala Koo Sang. I sent that back and got a 45 degree leg that works perfect for me.

Mr. Thornton is a stand up guy in my experience. It usually takes a while to deliver, but he'll go the extra mile to get you what you ask for. Alls you gotta do is know what you want.

One last item - he sells a pretty good pole, too.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Brithlor
The most obvious suggestion would be: If you have a dummy where did you get it from? How much did you pay? Is it a good dummy or not?

I made it myself. I got the arms made by Asheville Woodcrafters who don't seem to exist anymore. Their website, wooddummy.com, has been replaced by a stupid porn webcam thing. I don't know wtf is up with that. Their phone number has been disconnected, too. Anyway, the arms they made me are absolutely perfect. But, I guess they don't exist anymore. It cost between $250-275 total (I can't remember exactly) for everything including the stand. It is a good dummy. My cross pieces are a bit thicker than "traditional" so it's a little stiffer, but I like it this way. Other than that, everything is perfect. The upper arms are at the same height, everything is the proper dimension, etc.


However, please post ANY information you have about any wooden dummy retailers... whether its good or bad experiance, the more I know the better!


Like I said, Asheville Woodcrafters had the best prices and excellent quality stuff but they don't exist anymore. Maybe they lost too much money cuz their prices were AWESOME. Anyway, a lot of online retailers have crappy dummies and I've called them out before in previous threads.

So in the meantime, the only company I would recommend would be Great Lion (www.woodendummy.net).

Good luck.

[Brithlor]

I just so happens that www.woodendummy.net is the company I'm considering at the moment... I'm hoping to get other suggestions aswell though :).

Anyone visit that site recently?

They have (unfortunetly) raised their prices and now have some strange three legged dummy as their standard... they also no longer have the wall mount apparently...

Does anyone have the email address for the woodendummy.net people? I'd really like to ask them a few questions.

[IronFist]

Holy crap! They did just raise their prices!!!!

Their normal WC dummy with a square stand is now $1075!.00! (http://www.woodendummy.net/wc_css.php) Geez. Mine is exactly the same (except for a PVC body) and it only cost me $275.

Here's mine if you want to see it. (http://www.ultimatebattles.com/ebay/dummy4-1-copyright.jpg) See? Pretty much the same, except the two diagonal pieces on mine are 2x4's instead of 4x4's like they used, but mine go a little bit higher on the vertical pieces to create a sturdier base to make up for the thinner piece I used there, but I don't imagine it matters that much. Oh yeah, I didn't stain mine either. And like I said my cross pieces are a little thicker.

You could build one if you have Great Lion build the arms, but they don't have prices for those up yet. Asheville Woodcrafters built my arms and leg out of Persimmon for $175 shipped. I told you their prices were amazing.

[Mr Punch]

It's on the site.

info@woodendummy.net

[IronFist]

****, even their PVC one is $745 with a stand.

[JAFO]

I have a friend who bought the square stand, but it bolts together and is constantly coming loose and creaking. I helped him with the assembly, it went together pretty easy. Personally, I don't care for a freestand because they tend to move around and you lose some of the energy that way rather than have it come back in the way of a reaction. My sifu has a freestand but he uses thinner/narrower side slats that are a lot more lively and compensate for the 'portability' of the stand.

I built my own wall stand. It doesn't take much. (2) 4x4 verticals, metal strapped and anchored to the studs on my garage wall. Works great, cheap, and very low profile. BTW, my garage is detached from my house, otherwise I'd rock the house when working the dummy because it's directly connected to the framing.

I built a freestanding stand for a friend of mine. You can just copy what the other stands look like and bolt or screw one together (depending on if you want to move it later).

FWIW, I had heard the Asheville Woodcrafters made a pretty good dummy, too. But I've never actually seen one of those up close.

Too bad about the pricing.

[wentwest]

This is the one that my school uses. The lineage of my school is Yip Man - William Cheung (Traditional Wing Chun). I've also heard a few other folks mentioning that they either have or will be buying this one. I think AndrewS is going to get one of these... if you read this Andrew, maybe you could chime in with which dummy you are going with and why?

http://cranesproduction.com/product_info.php?products_id=29

They seem very well made from my limited experience. I'm a newcomer to Wing Chun too, Brithlor.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by wentwest
This is the one that my school uses. The lineage of my school is Yip Man - William Cheung (Traditional Wing Chun). I've also heard a few other folks mentioning that they either have or will be buying this one. I think AndrewS is going to get one of these... if you read this Andrew, maybe you could chime in with which dummy you are going with and why?

http://cranesproduction.com/product_info.php?products_id=29

They seem very well made from my limited experience. I'm a newcomer to Wing Chun too, Brithlor.

I only see two problems with that one. One, it's $1,200. And two, the top arms are at different heights. The stand looks pretty sturdy, but if I was going to pay $1,200 for a dummy, which I wouldn't anyway, but if I was, it would have to be absolutely perfect, which means the upper arms would have to be the same height.

[JAFO]

The upper arms (for most lineages) are both identical. To get them at different heights you face the side with the bevel on both of them in the same direction; to your right. To get the right one at more or less the same height as the left one, you flip it so the beveled sides face each other.

That is unless your line uses the dummies that feature the right hole as being higher than the left hole; essentially reverse of what the majority uses. In that case, I guess you'd have to ask Mr. Thornton to alter his design a bit. I'm pretty sure he'd do it as long as you pay for it in advance. He seems flexible in giving you what you want vs. what he thinks is right.

[Brithlor]

BUMP:

Pleae give more information if possible.. I'm buying this dummy ing 5 days.

[Gangsterfist]

I just picked up a book a few weeks ago called "Mok Jong Construction". Its a book on how to build your own dummy. They have several techniques and methods. The back side cover claims you can make a dummy for around $100.00 USD. This book is a few years old and wood costs I believe have gone up since then. They have several different methods of making them. Traditional, modern, metal, wood, pvc pipe, etc etc.

My sifu has a dummy and a few of my sihings have one as well. So I can't train on the dummy at my house at the moment. I think I am going to build one this spring. It looks like the hardest part would be constructing the arms. Since the base of the arm and the tip are two different dimensions. You would need a lathe for the arms.

I am at work right now. When I get home this evening I can post the title of the book if you wish on looking into getting it. I know there was a guy who lived around my area and he made dummies following this book and was selling them for about 700.00 dollars, and you could apparently haggle him down to a bit lower than that.

[IronFist]

^ Is that the book by Paladin Press? I heard it's a piece of crap. I heard the dummy isn't the proper proportions and a bunch of other stuff was wrong with it.

Assuming it's the Paladin press one, I had some people who bought my book email me and say mine was so much better. I'm not trying to brag or make sales here, I'm just saying what I've heard. It's not like I make very much money from that anyway. I just don't like people getting ripped off.

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah its the Paladin press book called, Mook Jong Construction. It seems like it covers all basis and the pictures in the book look like a traditional wooden dummy. I looked at your link for your wooden dummy construction and it looks just like the dummy in this book I have.

However, it looks like its gonna be a bit of work to build one. So if you are up for the job it may be worth your time and save some money that way.

[lawrenceofidaho]

I have had an Immortal dummy for two years, and have been very pleased with it. I bought the model with the base stand which does not require wall mounting. This has the great advantage of being reasonably portable (I once took it to an offsite location where a seminar was being held, so we would have a dummy available in the building.) Perhaps the best feature is that it is pleasantly QUIET. Training hard on a classical teak dummy might wake up the neighbors, but on an immortal dummy, a training session can barely be heard in the next room.

The Immortal dummy feels slightly stiffer than a classic teak model, but personally, I really like it this way. My concept of dummy training is; "How would my reactions be if I faced an opponent that was too strong for me move his arms?"
There is a bit of play in the limbs, but less than a traditional dummy, so this works very well for me.......Once you get used to the slightly different feel, you might find that you prefer it.

[Gangsterfist]

lawrenceofidaho-

What kind of wood is your dummy made of? Teak is what they use on boats right? Tough sturdy wood that does not warp/rot that easily and is very strong. So if you were for some reason going to put a dummy outside I could see Teak being a very attractive wood to use.

Can you give us a link to a website showing what dummy you have please?

Thanks-
gfist.

[IronFist]

lawrenceofidaho, welcome to KFM! :)

Hmm, since your only post is saying how much you like a company's dummy, I hope you're not an employee of that company trying to make a sale.

^ Not that I think that, just that I've seen shadier things happen on forums before.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Iron Fist,

Upon re-reading my post, it *DOES* sound somewhat like a paid endorsement....... ;)

No ties to Immortal, just happy with their product.......I wouldn't mind having both an immortal dummy and a classic dummy, but since I have to choose (I can't yet afford a second dummy), I would purchase the immortal again if I was buying for the first time. -My Sifu doesn't like it as much as I do, though, and I agree that it's not for everybody.......

Gangster Fist,

Immortal dummies are made of black recycled plastic (similar to the kind of plastic they fashion benches out of in public parks these days.) It's about the same weight as a wooden model.

Teak is an asian hardwood (very beautiful), but if I owned a dummy made from it, I would never put it outside. I would keep the teak one inside, and put the immortal outside since it doesn't matter if it; gets rained on, freezes, etc.

I think there are a few different places on the web selling these now. Try a Yahoo search, and compare prices between the retailers. Differences in shipping charges could make quite a difference too. -I think I paid $600 and about $120 shipping when I bought mine.

[yuanfen]

Good Asian teak sources are becoming rare due to deforestation
and I understand that much teak now being used is from Africa.

My huge classic family sculptured teak bed in India has helped raise 4 generations-
no erosion and no termite damage in the tropics. They can dry out in the American southwest or equivalent if not properly cared for.

A good dummy should last a lifetime. Not just the wood but good workmanship pays on the long run. Dont always agree with Ironfist but I like his advice on the top arms being fairly level.
$1200 for a very well made dummy with well selected and treated good hardwood is not an unreasonable price- considering
materials and labor/workmanship specially if it is custom made..

[tiger_1]

my friend : dnt give your money for wo. du. just make one , have some point in that work, have little spirit in that work , HAVE SOME PARTH OF YOU AND YOUR WING CHUN IN THAT ,HAVE SOME SENSE - tiger_1 - whan you are finich with wo. do , you can make SOME BOIMO TROUG. SOME HARD WORK , SOME BLUE S PARTH OF HANDS !!!!!:cool:

[Brithlor]

I'm sorry... say that again please? :confused: :eek:

Anyway, I'm delaying my purchase one week... so everyone still has a chance to give me some input ;) I'm going to be listing several websites and I want whoever is knowledgeable to give me their dis/approval.

I'd especially like IronFists' opinion since he appears to knows what he's talking about. I really want as many opinions as possible though, since I really can't risk getting a poorly made unusable dummy.


First one: http://www.woodendummy.net/wc_css.php Seems like pehaps the best choice... atleast I doubt I can go wrong with them, but the price is still kind of high.


Second one: http://www.wckfc.com/supplies/supplies.htm Pretty cheap, especially if I decide to make my own stand... but is the quality there?


Third one: http://www.bafa.biz/wooden/ There are 2 good dummies here, which (if any) looks good? I like their prices though ;). I like teak... so that's a plus as long as it is well made.


Fourth one: http://www.superiormartialarts.com/catalog/uniform/wingchun.html I'm mainly interested in the Golden Iron Teak Wooden dummy w/frame, but if anyone sees another dummy there that looks decent please say something.


And lastly: http://store.yahoo.com/tigerstrike-martial-arts/wooddumwstan.html The price is nice... But I have some doubts about the quality.

Thanks a lot! I'd really appreciate comments or personal experiance about any of these dummies!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Brithlor
First one: http://www.woodendummy.net/wc_css.php Seems like pehaps the best choice... atleast I doubt I can go wrong with them, but the price is still kind of high.


Good, but rediculously expensive.


Second one: http://www.wckfc.com/supplies/supplies.htm Pretty cheap, especially if I decide to make my own stand... but is the quality there?

Look sturdy, but I would be hesitant to make such a large purchase from a company that only shows one blurry photo of their product. I can't really tell anything about the dummy cuz they used one crappy quality photograph. Also, the link you gave for that one isn't the dummy page, you still have to click on "traditional."


Third one: http://www.bafa.biz/wooden/ There are 2 good dummies here, which (if any) looks good? I like their prices though ;). I like teak... so that's a plus as long as it is well made.

I'm not sure, but the one on the left looks like one of those crappy ones with the square-ish arms. It would hurt like hell if you tan sao'ed a square arm. And the one on the right has the upper arms at vastly different heights. Booooooo.


Fourth one: http://www.superiormartialarts.com/catalog/uniform/wingchun.html I'm mainly interested in the Golden Iron Teak Wooden dummy w/frame, but if anyone sees another dummy there that looks decent please say something.

The Golden Iron Teak Wooden one looks awesome. But again, I'd be weary of buying a dummy for which they only show you one photo. The actual product could vary greatly from the picture.


And lastly: http://store.yahoo.com/tigerstrike-martial-arts/wooddumwstan.html The price is nice... But I have some doubts about the quality.

That stand looks weak. You could probably knock it over without much effort. And the top arms are at such different heights it's painful to look at.

Well, those are my opinions. I'm gonna bump my "How to tell if a wooden dummy is crap" thread for you if I can still find it. It was made when we could show pictures in the threads so there were examples you could see.

[IronFist]

Here you go. This (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=14074&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) pretty much lays out the criteria for determining if a dummy has the proper dimensions or not. Unforunately, I wrote it over a year ago and none of the pics are visible. And in addition to that, the addresses aren't even valid anymore. But still read the thread. I think I described everything well enough that you don't need pictures.

[IronFist]

Oh yeah, one final bit of advice.

Some people are like "yeah you need to get a dummy made out of XXX type of wood because that's what Yip Man used." Some people also pay extra money to have a dummy imported from China cuz it's made with some special Chinese wood or something.

That's dumb. Know why?

Because China has a different climate that the US. So a wood that is good over there may not be the best over here. Unless you like your dummy to crack because of differences in humidity and temperature.

[yuanfen]

http://www.azwing.com/main.html

Above is Dave Lidell webpage-you can click on dummies. I have mentioned this before on the forum. Dave is very thorough in wood selection, construction, measurements and finish. He knows his woods, equipment and craftmanship.
Some of the so called "teak" dummies- you have to be careful about. The teaks are no longer real old line teak--- the specific gravities and drying characteristics can be problematic.
Also for some other dummies- made with logs--- evn with kiln drying
they may not all have dried prperly and some can crack.

Like many things construction tech has improved since Koo Sang's days. A well made dummy should last as long as you do wing chun and can be good in appearance as well.

joy chaudhuri

[IronFist]

Originally posted by yuanfen
http://www.azwing.com/main.html

Above is Dave Lidell webpage-you can click on dummies.

^ Hooray!!!!! The three dummies I see in the opening screen have the upper arms at the same height!!! Finally, a decent looking dummy! :D

(and pretty groovy music, too)

Um the one on the left looks like there's not very much distance between the upper arms and the lower ones. Maybe it was made for a shorter person or something.

Anyway those dummies look pretty good. Back when I was making my dummy I remember seeing their (old version) website and thinking it was awesome.

Still pretty expensive, tho. I don't care how good it is. $1,199.00 is a LOT of money to pay for a dummy.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
Which woods are you referring to specifically anyways so people can watch out...which ones grow there which do not grow here that crack?

Honestly, I don't remember. I read that over 2 years ago when I was working on my dummy. I remember something about teak from China being prone to cracking here, or something about Chinese woods in general not holding up well in American climates or something like that.

Asheville Woodcrafters (when they were still around) had a wood comparison chart on the website that gave different characterists of wood. That's why I chose to have my dummy arms made out of Persimmon. It was one of the strongest, and had the strongest "shock value" (I can't remember the term... it meant like resistance to sudden force).

[yuanfen]

Ironfist-yes Dave's dummy holes are very well crafted to make sure that the arms are level. Yes - he can do so called standard spacing (Koo Sang etc) between top and middle arms . Yes one dummy was made for a shorter person than the other.

The considerable skilled labor and the first class properly dried woods makes for the expense. The markup is not much.

Beware of the word "teak"-where is it from...whats the density...what is the prep./drying process? If you get first class teak-if you are lucky- the log itself will be several times more expensive than the advertised prices.

His dummies do not develop any cracks with normal wear and tear.

Of course one can go for a cheaper dummy made differently.
Several years ago- Inosanto's academy in Calif. and Degerbert's in Chicago-both of which I visited had dummies that had cracks in them.

A student of mine bought a dummy from a place that is often mentioned- within a year he had a significant crack in it.

It is all upto the individual. There are ranges of choices nowadays.
One can make one themselves- it can also be good if one is agood crafstman, has the tools, knows what they are doing and knows the woods.

Re using a log rather than competent laminating. It takes overa year sometimes several years for a good hardwood log to be properly dried to the core. Kiln drying speeds up the process- but it still takes time to do it right. Cost cutting at the kiln can still
leave an unevenly dried log- which will begin cracking- sometimes from the inside outward.
When you have with good workmanship- an individually laminated
dummy body properly fitted and pressed together- the dummy has a structural integrity of it's own. Will outlast logs- look nicer and last longer. Evenly dried and assembled laminates adjust to environmental changes and moving to different places better than logs or badly assembled laminates.

I have 3 dummies... a pine log, a koo sang Hong Kong dummy and one custom made by Dave. Dave's one )well laminated oak) is in better shape and looks nicer than the other two. Purple heart, jatoba etc is more expensive than oak generally.

Plastic, filled pvcs will "Work" too. They dont have the same feel.
I have tried them.

It depends on individual wants and needs and the principle of caveat emptor.

BTW- I dont have any partnership in making or selling dummies.
I neither make them or sell them.
Brithlor-
Good luck in your decision making.
Sorry no proofreading- not kiln dried.

[kj]

Some craftsmen selling dummies on caliber of Dave's are pricing them at $2500 and more. A friend of mine purchased a Lidell dummy tailored to customs specs. He is very happy with it, and I've not yet heard any reports or complaints otherwise. While not on the low end, they are a very good value, and not at all out of line considering the quality craftsmanship and dimensional precision he puts into them, IMHO. One of Dave's dummies remains on my own wish list, when I eventually manage to replace the inferior one I have now.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[IronFist]

.

[Brithlor]

Thanks for the replies everyone, and please give more :).

I had forgotten about that wcats page... glad you brought that back up.

Which dummy would be better, a dummy from the AZ website or one from www.woodendummy.net?

Also, does anyone have complaints about that golden iron dummy? It looks nice and has a nice price... but it could be poor quality.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
what do you guys think of this?

http://wcats.com/WcatsDummy.php


Upper arms are different heights.

It could just be that he put the wrong arms in the holes, but you would think someone who makes dummies would not overlook that fact when giving sample pictures of them.

[IronFist]

^ Yes, but if the upper arms are at vastly different heights, like the bottom of one is the same level as the top of the other one, then I would say it's as important as those things you mentioned.

But nothing's worse than those ones with square arms.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#
The arms on the Wooden Dummy should be level to each other to keep techniques done on both sides equal. For instance, the Bong Sao with the left arm should be the same as the right Bong Sao. Just like when you do the forms. All the position are done in the same point in space on both sides. I have learned this in TWC and in other lineages as well. The tangs on the upper dummy arms are off center so it depends how you put the tang into the body that will determine if the arms are level or not. The pictures belwo are the very same dummy but with the arm tangs inserted in differently. The correct arm position for TWC and "some" others should be like the photo below.

[Phil Redmond]

Some WC schools insert the tangs in so that the arms are not level like the photo below. This was disscussed before and some sent a photo of the dummy Yip Man used used in Fatshan. The arms were level.

[yuanfen]

Levelling can involve more precision craftsmanship too-
getting good/right spacing at the front end of the arms
while making sure that the arms are balanced and cross
at the center of the mass of the dummy.
It is easier to make a misaligned dummy.
In spending a lot of money it's good to know as much as you can about what you are getting... so it will last longer, good to work with and also look nice. Find out about the specific gravity/densities, drying details, kiln time.
If you want to do it cheaply and details seem trivial- you also have many choices.
Talk with the makers/suppliers rather than just looking up a catalog. If you area good craftsman, have the right tools, wood and design its possible to make one yourself. Experience does matter.

[kj]

originally posted by kj
The impracticality of constructing both arm holes on the same horizontal plane results in differing solutions and tradeoffs:



The arm holes are typically drilled or chiseled on different planes within the dummy body. A disadvantage of this solution is that symmetrically constructed arms are then utilized at different vertical heights.
The first problem can be resolved by construction methods applied to the arms themselves (rather than the arm hole). The solution is to offset the square insert shaft from the round applied arm area. Thus, by orienting the arms correctly in the offset holes, the resulting work area is now or nearly vertically even. The disadvantage with this solution is that the offset in the arm shafts interferes somewhat with even and symmetrical play in the arms.


Some folks are more concerned about the first disadvantage of uneven arms. Other folks are more concerned about the second problem, where the nature and evenness of play in the dummy (sometimes spoken of in terms of the dummy's "energy") is affected. One's priorities dictate the appropriate solution.


I happen to be among those who place a higher priority on the balance and play in the arms, and less concerned about unevenness.

FWIW, I've noticed many and often enormous differences in people's interpretation and realization of Wing Chun, but none that minor differences in arm height would account for. In fairness, none that minor differences in the play of dummy arms would significantly account for either.

The dummy is just a tool, not the driving factor that will make or break one's Wing Chun. Still, a combination of many small factors can lead to major differences. Everyone picks their poison.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Attachment: mook_even.gif

This has been downloaded 8 time(s).


^ Hooray!

What tradeoff are you guys talking about? Level arms can still have the same amount of play in them as uneven arms.

[kj]

Originally posted by IronFist
What tradeoff are you guys talking about? Level arms can still have the same amount of play in them as uneven arms.

If you're addressing me, I did not say "amount" of play.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[IronFist]

kj, I wasn't addressing you :D

I was addressing EmptyCup when he said:

I have never played on a even-armed dummy so I cannot say if the "feeling" of it being different in that way is a worthy tradeoff or not...