Mantis Weapons

[blackmantis]

Hi all,

I was just wondering what weapons all you mantis folk train in. I have not been training long, and so have not trained in any yet, but i know that my master owns a straight sword.

What other weapons are generally linked to the mantis style?

S

[ursa major]

Hello Blackmantis,

I think all PM styles have sword, broadsword, staff, spear and General's Sword (Quan Do). Beyond these it has been my experience that the weapons sets trained from club to club varies. For example some do Tiger Hook some do not, some do Iron Fan while others do not, or some do trident and others do not.

I do not think there is a 'standard' of weapons for PM however it is clear that some lineages specialize in certain weapons.

regards,
UM.

[renki]

It is my understanding that the 5ft staff is the most traditional
weapon in 7 star.

[Tamojin]

We use a staff that is the same height as the student, we also learn Serji Quan (chinese nunchuku) and Dune quan (a 2 foot staff with a leather wrist strap on the end).

[ursa major]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
.... Mantis is a fist style only...



Interesting comment shanghai_kid however I believe you are misinformed.

If you practice 7 Star PM may I suggest you take a broadsword in your right hand and then do one of the hand forms, for example, 1st Route Essential or 18 Old Men?

Best regards,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

I agree with Shanghai.
When talking of using PM to fight it means to fight empty handed.
Most all PM has weapons. Terminolgy and weapons motions have relation to PM empty hand motions too.

But from how I define PM I see it as an empty hand fighting method.
So Ursa, it seems that our definition of what PM is differs.

So then, "how do you define PM?" may be an interesting title of a new thread.

[Tieh]

If you practice 7 Star PM may I suggest you take a broadsword in your right hand and then do one of the hand forms, for example, 1st Route Essential or 18 Old Men?

And then?? Does that make a broadsword form out of it. Sab Pa Sao??? I can't quite imagine that!

[ursa major]

Sorry people I was in a hurry and could not take the time to elaborate.

I may have misunderstood shanghai_kid's comment to mean he thought PM was exclusive of weapons forms.

Tieh,

I know very little of PM outside of 7 Star so have to use local examples. Have you ever done (7 Star) Yin Ching or 5 Element without the sword? Played it as a hand-form and perhaps taken note of the familiarity of method? Some steps clearly need a weapon to provide context yet here is the point: many others do not and these are typically shared methods with many of our hand forms.

I played Chop Choy with a sabre to see what happened and found some steps are clearly not meant for any other context than empty hand yet others blended comfortably to the sabre sometimes with adjustment sometimes without any adjustment.
I tried the same with various forms using a sword and later with a staff eventually running through most of the forms with either a short stick, sword or staff.

I concluded that some steps in our system worked interchangably between weapons with empty hand while it was obvious that others did not and that some weapons (eg: Quan-Do) would be ludicrous to attempt. It was a simple R&D experiment that revealed that commonality exists in an area of overlap bridging that which we do in our forms with a weapon and that which we do in our forms with an empty hand.

Because of this commonality it is my opinion that, excluding the entirety of PM, it is in part suitable for both empty hand and weapons. Hence IMO is both a hand and a weapons system.

Here is an example you can try for yourself first with empty hand then with a sword:

1) right hill climbing stance, right intercepting hand lifting (ergo 'a rising block') with left reverse punch

2) turn to right horse stance with right hammer on center line

Now pick up the sword...

3) right hill climbing stance, sabre in right hand deflects across center to right side in lifting position with left halting palm

4) turn to right horse stance with right sabre slash/cut across centerline

This 1-2 sequence is a simple and common method that exists in many of our forms. There are others.

Tainan,

Agreed we are using PM method to fight empty handed. But when we pick up a weapon like staff or broadsword or short stick and employ these using methods (stances, stepping, motion) that are fundamentally PM in nature what then? Has the act of placing a weapon in my hand diminished or fulfilled my PM?

Best Regards,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

Ursa,
To a large part motion is a universal thing.
The way the weapons is used depends on several factors of the weapon itself.
Size
construction
weight etc.
Since the hand is a weapon there are similarities between it and some weapon actions.

[SevenStarPM]

Hi,
I'm new to the forums, and inexperienced so bear with me if what i say is rubbish!
I train in Lee Kam Wing's Seven Star mantis.
In our system we train in spear, kwan do, 3-section-stick, single broadsword, long handled scimitar, nine section steel whip, double broadsword, tiger head double hooks, fong tin lance, double seven star canes, double 7 star hammers, straight sword, staff, tiger head single hook, double daggers and double straight swords.

However, I don't know how many of those are pure mantis and which are Chin Woo etc, but just thought I'd throw in my penneth worth.

Thanks,

Chris

[Tieh]

Hi Ursa Major,



Have you ever done (7 Star) Yin Ching or 5 Element without the sword? Played it as a hand-form and perhaps taken note of the familiarity of method?

Sorry can't... for some reason I haven't learned sword yet. I learn 7 Star too (HK 7 Star).

I got your point now. But I have to say I can not find this so eventful. Well, there are surely some patterns, footwork etc. that work for both empty handed and armed fighting, as you described in your example. But I still think this is due to the limitations of the human body and similarities in the weapon "hand" and other weapons like a sword or so.
What I can see is that the Mantis weapons forms that I saw or learned all have quiet rapid footwork. This is definetely different in weapons sets of other styles, especially southern ones, that I got see.

So long

[NorthernShaolin]

To trace weapons to a specific style is very difficult given the history of CMA unless a sifu developed a certain weapon for the particular reason, i.e., Nine Dragon Spear was developed by a sifu in the Ts'ai Li Fut style in the 1800's.

At one time, knowledge of how to use a weapon was a valuable trade in making a living, i.e., soldier, security guard, etc. and were a closely guarded speciality taught only to the very trusted individuals such as disciples and family member. It was not until the late 1800's where sifus began to trade sets with each other to demonstrate respect towards each other and their individual skills. As this process progressed, sifus had a choice of what weapons they felt would enhance their own style and would incooperate them into their curriculum. Some sifus would even go so far as to added their flavor of their style into the set, hence variation of the same set with the same name. This process continued in the early 1900's and was encouraged by the government schools, Kuo Shu, and the private schools such as the Jing Mo schools. Before this time, styles such as Eagle Claw and BSL Lo Han really had very, very few weapons in their curriculum and the few that they had, none of them are such that they can claim as their very own.

Tradition has it that the sifu who incooperated a weapon into his curriculum, would always keep the given weapon name, i.e., Continious Sword, Four Door Spear, etc. rather than re-naming it after their style.

Now given the fact that we all understand that sets come and go with time, people seeking the origin of their weapon sets will eventully take them to the origin of the weapons. Most people who research where the origin of their weapon sets come from, end up at the Shaolin Temple and their research hits the wall.

A few old documents have stated that some of the weapons such as long handle axe, were introduced by individuals while other weapons were not well documented and just appeared at the Shaolin Temple. History has demonstrated that many of our existing weapons have a long history that pre-dates the Shaolin Temple and to trace any particular weapon set is nearly impossible.

[German Bai Lung]

Hi all,

in my Opinion weapon and handforms are totally different designed. There is no sence (except the fun-factor) to perform a Sword-form or even a spearform without the weapon. Also it is not really useful to perform a handform with a weapon.

The weaponforms often bear some specific strategies of movement to make the weapon more powerful. EG the swordsforms got moves which you can never find in handforms!

I think like others mentioned before, that most of the weapons are collected at a later time and that mantis is at first an only hand-technique style.

But without weapons, there would be a great lap! ;)

[EarthDragon]

There's a story my shiifu told us of his shifu master Wei Xiao Tung using what's called a moon and star ring, can't remember in chinese but anyway it was a tradtional weapon that could be carried in the hand and consealed. It is a bar slightly wider than the palm which has a ring that slips over the middle finger. It was actually used in a scuffle with a group of Koreans when master Wei saw them beating a Chinese Merchant Marine. He tried to break up the fight but then they turned on him so he proceded to strike with the weapon causing extensive damage with single hits hospitalizng 4 in the proccess.

[Shaolin Dude]

sounds like you're describing emei daggers

[EarthDragon]

Similar, Except these have a cresent moon on one end and a star on the other.