Bluming on Oyama, Emin and the Gracies.

[rogue]

Bluming in all his glory! (http://www.realfighting.com/0102/jonblumi.htm)

My favorite quote.

Bluming
There’s no mysticism in martial arts, it’s hard work, sweat, tears, they invent it because they don’t know how to fight or what they’re doing. And that’s the way they keep their students together, so at least they can buy a good car and house.

It has nothing to do with sports. That about sums it up.

[jun_erh]

he can't imagine that any of the gracies culd beat his student

[LEGEND]

I haven't seen any of his students reach PRIDE level fighting yet. Maybe SEMMY who KEN SHAMROCK beat who was beaten once by ROYCE GRACIE.

[Unmatchable]

Didn't some bagua/tai chi/xingyi guy named Wang ShuJin beat his ass i front of his students for disrespecting kung fu?

I perosnally like these quotes:


Bluming
One should always go into the background of the sensei he wants to study under, and then decide if it’s worth it. Now don’t forget there are very good sensei’s who never really fought in a contest but have the ability to show their students how it is done and make good teachers and champs in the process.



Pancrase also made headlines with Dolman’s student, Bas Rutten, and my personal student Sem Schilt, who took the title three times, and now fights the Pride tournaments. It’s only the cage fights I don’t really like because I think in Budo, we should remain a little human???


All the fight organizations in Japan are run by gangsters, the top Yakuza, everybody knows that.



trained them so good that the CRAZY family (The Gracies) with their big mouths NEVER wanted to fight Chris Dolman no matter how many times he tried to get them on the mat in Japan. That goes now also for Sem Schilt. I cannot image that any of the Gracies can beat them. But the Gracies are great showman and surely no pushovers.



Yes, that’s right, but I think you give the Gracies too much leverage; they did NOT bring in something new. And if they change the rules so that you are allowed to hit or kick when one knee is on the mat that would change the whole story. I have seen that in February in Tokyo when one of the Gracie’s fought and lost miserably to a kick boxer.
All he did was constantly dive for the legs knowing that if his knees are on the mat his opponent was not aloud to hit him. Of course I trained them in those styles, I did those techniques in Kodokan 42 years ago when Gracie was in his diapers.



who come to most dojos are certainly NOT looking to go in to all-round fighting, they just think mostly that they can learn some self-defense and get some secret stuff??? Ha, ha and can give a good fight in the streets when they have to. That does NOT work, for even good fighters are NOT street fighters, for they do not have the killer instinct, as a real born fighter has.


You know, I admire Gracie, at least the first one, some of the other ones, I don’t know, they are big mouths. I saw one last February fighting at Rings, and he was just a big showoff, and he caught a low kick so hard that both legs came from the floor and he banged his head. Every time they try to rush forward and grab your legs, but you know what’s funny about it, they know as soon as they grab your leg, there’s always one leg on the tatami. Once that happens, you are not allowed to hit him. If I would fight a guy like that, I would tell him, look, even at my age, I like to fight you, but no rules! So more bull**** with one leg on the ground, and I’m not allowed to hit you, so once he comes in then, I will punch so hard, or a shuto so hard, it will break his ****ing neck. But you’re not allowed to do that.

One of my best students, Gilbert Eifel, he fought one of the wrestlers who was light heavyweight champion from Sydney, and fought at that same tournament in February last year in Rings in Tokyo, and he jumped forward and gripped the legs of the big Negro Eifel, and Eifel just elbowed him, Bang, and he nearly killed him, right between the shoulders, wap! But he was almost disqualified, he lost three points, he lost the goddam shiai, and he lost the title, it cost him $200K.

And that’s what I mean phony, and this wrestler didn’t do anything, not an arm lock, not a leg lock, absolutely nothing except jumping forward, grip with both hands, one leg or two legs, and nothing happened, not a throw, punch or kick, and he won $200K by decision.

[Pork Chop]

Isn't he directly or indirectly tied to names like:
Ernesto Hoost, Remy Bonjasky, Peter Aerts, Bas Rutten, and most others coming out of holland?

I mean if you look at his influence on Holland's MA scene and their success in the modern Martial Sport scene; his words don't sound so much like bragging.

[red5angel]

I don't know sounds all those guys he is railing about. Obvioulsy in his style the more you swear the better you are! ;)

[lkfmdc]

Direct students

Willem Ruska, Olympic and world judo champion, one of the best Judo men EVER

Chris Dolman, three time world Sambo champion, undefeated in MMA matches in Japan

**** Vrij, former champion of now defunct RINGS

Semmy Shilt, PRIDE fighter, former king of Pancrase

From his lineage

Bas Rutten, former king of Pancrase

Peter Aerts

Founder of Sabaki challenge, forget his name

etc etc

If you were Bluming, you could pretty much say what you wanted :)

[Unmatchable]

Here is what happened between Bluming and Wong Shu Jin:

when he was in taiwan john had met with wong shu jin during one of his demonstrations. he complained to smith having seen wongs ability to take punches and kicks to any part of the body "what else can he do" smith then arranged for a meeting between wong and bluming were wong showed bluming exactly what he could do!. Bluming knows his karate/judo is nowhere near as effective as TCMA, but he can not admit that as it would put him out of buisness.

[rogue]

Where'd you get the quote?

[lkfmdc]

it is dumb trolls that give CMA a bad name, taking something that gives some credit to CMA way too far and thus making it a JOKE

Bluming and Wang decided for some strange reason to have a punching contest, who could punch the other until the other got knocked down. Not exactly a fight, not exactly to bright either :rolleyes:

Wang indeed knocked Bluming down, and Bluming said he was surprised how hard he hit

That does not validate the troll comment of

"Bluming knows his karate/judo is nowhere near as effective as TCMA, but he can not admit that as it would put him out of buisness"

Crap like that gives us all a bad name

[backbreaker]

If I'm not mistaken , I thought I saw a television show that had an interview with a guy called john Bluming. He talked about how one time on the street he punched a guy with a barefist , and the guy was dying in the hospital for 12 hours. He said he would only use palm strikes from that point on. Is this true? Does anyone know anything about this?

[red5angel]

taking something that gives some credit to CMA way too far and thus making it a JOKE


I think this can go both ways.....seems it happens as often with so called reality fighting or no traditional schools. Funny how we all have the same issues when it comes down to it huh? All of us suck from some perspective, some of us don't know how to fight, no matter what we're learning. Quite a few of us are more talk then anything else no matter how modern or traditional our training is.

Sad thing is it's all the fukking same thing when it comes down to it. In the last 4 months I have beat and been beat by guys practicing traditional arts and guys practicing more modern arts. All in all, I haven't seen anything on either side of the fence to convince me of right or wrong.

[MasterKiller]

He was talking about working as a bouncer in the red light districts. He hit the guy and ruptured an artery behind his ear or something.

[lkfmdc]

That was Bluming on that TV thing, and I wish more of the show had been like that, but of course, there is always XMA :D

[rogue]

It would have been funny to drop Bluming into the middle of those yoyos. That way we could see how bones break with that x-ray thing they had.:D

Bluming is a blowhard but I've yet to see anybody call him on his claims, so he'll get the benefit of the doubt for some of it. Popping the Oyama balloon is also fun to listen to.

[lkfmdc]

if what he says is TRUE, is he still a blowhard? :)

[red5angel]

yes:cool:

[Unmatchable]

Robert W Smith wrote it in 'chinese martial arts masters'.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by backbreaker
If I'm not mistaken , I thought I saw a television show that had an interview with a guy called john Bluming. He talked about how one time on the street he punched a guy with a barefist , and the guy was dying in the hospital for 12 hours. He said he would only use palm strikes from that point on. Is this true? Does anyone know anything about this?

He hit a guy in the head, tore his ear off, and the guy died (IIRC, he hit his head when he fell). Bluming also chased down one of the other 2 attackers and beat him up (while the first guy was ruled acceptable, the second guy was found to be excessive and he got fined 500 guilders).

And, yes, this is why he primarily trains open hand strikes now.

[lkfmdc]

what is 500 guilders in US money?

[fragbot]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Bluming and Wang decided for some strange reason to have a punching contest, who could punch the other until the other got knocked down. Not exactly a fight, not exactly to bright either :rolleyes:


They lived in the same house* together in Tokyo. Along with Donn Draeger, Robert Smith and a few other people who're well-known and respected.

*I don't know where they met. It's possible they met in Taiwan.



Wang indeed knocked Bluming down, and Bluming said he was surprised how hard he hit.


While it's possibly true, that's different than the story I heard. It was more that he hit Wang Shu Jin as hard as he could and hurt his hand doing so.

Ya gotta love a 70 y/o guy that offered a Florida karateka (who'd p*ssed him off) 100 large if he could beat him at some upcoming contest in Japan.

[rogue]

if what he says is TRUE, is he still a blowhard? Yes, but a very tough blowhard. :D


They lived in the same house* together in Tokyo. Along with Donn Draeger, Robert Smith and a few other people who're well-known and respected. That had to be so nuts.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Ross has liver punched the correct.

[BAI HE]

I heard that there was talk of Bruce Lee's one-inch punch and in the ensuing conversation on short power, Bluming asked if Wang could do it, Wang used no inch power and hurt Bluming pretty good as he was sore for a bit. Wang wasn't exactly a little guy either.

As far as Bluming killing that guy? Could've happened that way, he is a big, highly skilled individual. Being tough as nails helps too.
I don't think it's completely spectacular.

A pro Boxing trainer I know, told me a story about Randall "Tex" Cobb (boxer, kick-boxer, actor.)
Tex got lost in Detroit looking for the Kronk boxing gym and got mugged. Three guys mugged him with, one with a baseball bat (trying to steal his cadillac) Tex took a few shots from the bats and proceeded to beat the these guys half to death, literally.

Tex with no MA training also managed to eat a prime Larry Holmes's punches for fifteen rounds, without landing more than 2 himself.

Some guys are made of rocks I guess.

[CrippledAvenger]

In Cobb's case it was more like cocaine. He was a notorious drug user even in his ring days.

My favorite old boxer story though, is when a seventy-year old Jack Dempsey got mugged by two young guys outside of his apartment. Apparently Dempsey hit them so hard that they collapsed and actually begged the police to come in and get them out.

[BAI HE]

Everbody was on coke in those old boxing days...
Mugabi, Pryor, Arguello, Duran...
The list is endless.

Dempsey was bad ass.

[LeeCasebolt]

A couple things:


t was the UWF who really started in Japan. I went there with Chris Dolman and Dik Vry. They beat the **** out of the Japanese, the Americans and especially the Russians.

UWF (and UWFi, which I think is what he's refering to) was a pure work organization. If they "beat the **** out of" anyone, it was either a) in the script, or b) one small step above an ambush.


So in 1993 Dolman became the first world champion for RINGS in Tokyo and made $100,000.

1993 RINGS? Not a legit fight to be found. More works. See above.


And if they change the rules so that you are allowed to hit or kick when one knee is on the mat that would change the whole story. I have seen that in February in Tokyo when one of the Gracie?s fought and lost miserably to a kick boxer.

First of all, I have no idea what he's going on about with regard to changing the rules. No MMA organization ever had a rule about no hitting on the ground - that's the *point*. There have been rules regarding kicking downed opponents, but the Gracies, as a rule, have not been associated with those events.

Secondly, I can't recall a Gracie ever losing miserably to a kickboxer, and a quick perusal of sherdog.com tells me
Renzo Gracie lost a decision to (not a kickboxer) Kiyoshi Tamura on 2-26-00. I've seen this fight, and it's an incredibly close decision. On 2-24-02, Rodrigo Gracie submitted Daijiro Matsui (in Saitama, not Tokyo). There are no other recorded fights for any Gracie in February of any year.


Every time they try to rush forward and grab your legs, but you know what?s funny about it, they know as soon as they grab your leg, there?s always one leg on the tatami. Once that happens, you are not allowed to hit him.

Um... not true.



One of my best students, Gilbert Eifel, he fought one of the wrestlers who was light heavyweight champion from Sydney, and fought at that same tournament in February last year in Rings in Tokyo, and he jumped forward and gripped the legs of the big Negro Eifel, and Eifel just elbowed him, Bang, and he nearly killed him, right between the shoulders, wap! But he was almost disqualified, he lost three points, he lost the goddam shiai, and he lost the title, it cost him $200K.

I'm assuming this is refering to Gilbert Yvel's fight with Dan Henderson, Feb '00. One, Henderson was not any kind of champion at Sydney. His teammate, Matt Lindland, won a silver there, which I would suppose is the source of confusion. Two, I don't think anyone has ever nearly killed anyone with an elbow between the shoulders, and if it happened here it doesn't show up on video. Three, Gilbert's an idiot who can't show up to fight without nearly getting himself disqualified half the time.


Right, right, and Gracie, the first Gracie, he claimed no one could beat him, then Dolman, my student who was the first ?real? unofficial world champion beat everybody, the Russians, Ukrainians, an American I don?t know, he beat the **** out of them, really bad,

See above. Works. Not "real" anything. Well, his sambo credentials may be legit; I have no knowledge of that. But a '93 RINGS World Title is worth slightly more than one of Hulk Hogan's old belts in terms of fighting credentials.

Now, Bluming is certainly a tough guy, and has turned out some quality fighters, but facts don't appear to be his best thing.

[BAI HE]

But it's different when Rickson Gracie claims all these victories?
Go to Sherdog.com and download his highlight tape. There is one where his opponent is down on the mat and Rickson is kneeing him in the spine.

You'll accept what you believe is true and then toss out the rest. Like the clip of Rickson attacking the big Luta Livre guy at the beach. Had he wanted to fight? Rickson would have probably got wrecked.

There are causes to claim on both sides,l while the Gracies are at the pinnacle of Nei-waza, the stand-up game may have passed them by.

You seem selective in facts and admissability thereof.
Try to be less bias and more objective. It helps.

[lkfmdc]

sigh, Lee Casebolt, you shouldn't post about stuff you apparently don't know a lot about


Originally posted by LeeCasebolt
A couple things:

UWF (and UWFi, which I think is what he's refering to) was a pure work organization. If they "beat the **** out of" anyone, it was either a) in the script, or b) one small step above an ambush.

1993 RINGS? Not a legit fight to be found. More works. See above.



Sir, UWF was famous for its few real fights, all when they invited outsiders to fight their "UWF stiff style". Matches against Bluming's guys were famous and were indeed real, just like Maeda vs Gordeau was real. In fact, these matches always stand out on the UWF cards because they are real. Have you even seen them?

RINGS was about 70/30 and certainly KOK was 100 shoot.


Originally posted by LeeCasebolt

First of all, I have no idea what he's going on about with regard to changing the rules. No MMA organization ever had a rule about no hitting on the ground

. [/B]

For most of the time MMA matches were done in Japan, you could not kick a person down on all fours. Pancrase, RINGS, Japan Vale Tudo, and PRIDE. The soccer kick rule has only changed recently and indeed changed the game.

Again, you apparently are sketchy on the facts



Originally posted by LeeCasebolt

Well, his sambo credentials may be legit; I have no knowledge of that.

[/B]

THREE TIME WORLD CHAMPION would make his sambo credentials "legit"

:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

[BAI HE]

On all fours? When is there a better time to kick somebody. That is called a "high kick" in BaGua.

[LEGEND]

"Like the clip of Rickson attacking the big Luta Livre guy at the beach. Had he wanted to fight? Rickson would have probably got wrecked."

Rickson ended up fighting that guy twice. Both times he beat HUGO DUARTE up. Hugo even confirmed it.

[BAI HE]

And I couldn't beat either of them. Nor could anyone one this board.

So put in the "Barney" tape and make me a grilled cheese.

[Unmatchable]

Speaking of that guy he fought recently in Pride or some other show at 60 years of age. And he still trains all the time and sleeps on the beach or something and has like a bunch of kids running around he doesn't know about.

[LeeCasebolt]

David, I really don't want to get into a ****ing match with you on this.



RINGS was about 70/30 and certainly KOK was 100 shoot.


KOK was about six years after Dolman's so-called "World title" win. Yes, it was legit. I've seen Dolman's work (and I stress "work") in the early 90s. It's unconvincing, as was most early 90s RINGS.

re: UWF/UWFi, I'll confess I've only got about 20 hours on tape. There're shows I've missed. Please point me in the direction of legit fights from that organization, and I'll happily spend the money to confirm. In other words, give me a date, I'll get the tape. But everything I've seen is both worked, and unconvincing at that. I can't believe they sold this as a shoot organization.




THREE TIME WORLD CHAMPION would make his sambo credentials "legit"

You know as well as I do that internet claims of world champion status are worth the paper they're printed on. I know precisely ****-all about sambo competition. Dolman may be legit, or he may be claiming. Or rather, Bluming may be claiming on his behalf. Don't know, don't know where to look it up. And unlike most people in internet arguments, I'm intellectually honest enough to admit it.


For most of the time MMA matches were done in Japan, you could not kick a person down on all fours. Pancrase, RINGS, Japan Vale Tudo, and PRIDE. The soccer kick rule has only changed recently and indeed changed the game.

True. However, I fail to see how a rule against kicking a person in the head in a specific position is the same as a rule against hitting a downed opponent, which was the claim made.

On another subject, I can't believe I'm being put in the role of Gracie apologist.


But it's different when Rickson Gracie claims all these victories?

Who said it was different?

Some of Rickson's wins are on video. I've seen them. I'm not terribly impressed by the quality of his opposition, and anyone I've spoken to on the issue knows I'm not on the "Gracie as Godlike Superbeing" bandwagon, but many of his claimed accomplishments are verifiable fact. Yes, the Gracie clan (and Rorion in particular) are prone to distortions, misrepresentations, and outright lies to inflate their accomplishments, but theirs aren't the issue in this case; Blumings are. When someone links to a Gracie article with as many blatant falsehoods in it, I'll go off on them. Fair?

My bias, to the extent I have one, is anti-BJJ, because I find most of their online supporters a bunch of unruly children, and anti-Gracie, because Rorion strikes me as the moral equivalent of a used car salesman turned congressman. The fact that I'm being painted as a Gracie apologist is somewhere between ironic and hilarious.

[lkfmdc]

Getting exact dates means going through hours of tape and then trying to figure out the date from an all Japanese broadcast, ie I can do it, just don't expect me to immediately rattle off dates

Japanese pro wrestling is not the WWE, it's a weird creature to be sure, but in Japan and among the wrestlers, they feel they are legit tough guys. Thus, the frequently challenged non pro wrestlers to test their stuff, a product of Inoki's original "challenges" (though Inoki's matches were all fake).

Obviously the real matches look quite different, most of the time they are not at all entertaining. Most are sloppy as crap. But considering some of these matches date back to the early 1980's they are indeed the fathers of MMA

[ShaolinTiger00]

anti-BJJ,

ghey!


zhoo zhitzhu!!! zhoo zhitzhu!!!

[LeeCasebolt]

Getting exact dates means going through hours of tape and then trying to figure out the date from an all Japanese broadcast, ie I can do it, just don't expect me to immediately rattle off dates

Fair enough. I'll check some other sources and see what I can come up with.

I'm not questioning the toughness of pro wrestlers or Blumings fighters. I'm not questioning their role in the evolution of MMA. I'm questioning a number of specific claims that contradict what I know (or think I know) with regard to MMA/puro history.



ghey!


zhoo zhitzhu!!! zhoo zhitzhu!!!

And I was all set to say nice things about you, too...:p

[lkfmdc]

What do you know! I found an internet listing of some UWF events with dates and match listings....

Now, I am looking at just lists of matches on the net, not the actual matches, so I am trying to remember which ones were legit as opposed to works. I remember at times a guy would agree to work one show (Vrij worked with Fujiwara two times that I know of) but then do a real match on another show (Vrij vs Anjo is one that got messy)

I can say that I am 95% sure that MOST of these are indeed real matches,

UWF The Professional Bout
8/13/88
Akira Maeda vs. Gerard Gordeau (SURE)
Caesar Takeshi vs. Paryhap Premchai (SURE)

UWF Dynamism
1/10/89
Yamazaki vs. Clark (a kickboxer)
This is so sloppy I am thinking it is a shoot, but I could be wrong on this one
* For those interested in really bad pro wrestling, this event also features Norman Smiley vs Bart Vale

UWF May History 1st
5/4/89
Akira Maeda vs. Chris Dolman
I am getting this one off the internet, so I don't know if this is the one I am thinking of, but I have seen at least one Maeda vs Dolman match that was NOT a work. This may be it, but again, I am taking these listings off a site, not staring at them as I type

UWF U-Cosmos
11/29/89
Yoji Anjo vs. Changpuek Kiatsongrit (Muay Thai) (SURE)
Akira Maeda vs. Willy Wilhelm

UWF The Memorial
5/4/90
**** Leon Vrij vs. Yoji Anjo
* thing to notice, only SOME UWF guys agreed to real matches, Anjo being #1 IMHO. Anjo is the same guy who traveled to LA to challenge Rickson. An event right before this, you have Vrij working a match with Fujiwara, clearly a fake, but this one seems real enough, including the ref saving Anjo from getting stomped on the back of the head if I remember this match correctly!

[Unmatchable]

Do you know of any clips oline of these matches? How do they differ from fake ones?

[LeeCasebolt]

Thanks for the list; I'll do some digging and see if I can get the tapes.