Mongol Hordes

[Archangel]

Did the Chinese have any influence on the weaponry or military tactics of The Mongols. They were expert bowman and had an almost unstoppable cavalry. The Khans had the largest land based empire that the world has ever seen. They put Russia to the torch, flattened Poland and Hungry destroying everything in their path and by 1241 were at the gates of Vienna. If it wasn't for the death of The Great Kahn Ogodai many historians believe that they would have surged westward and annihilated Europe.

It's interesting to imagine what this world would be like if they did destroy Europe; what we all look like today.

[KC Elbows]

They did in russia what Hitler and Napolean couldn't- win in winter. Mind you, it was probably a lot more like home to them than to the Germans or French.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by EmptyCup

As for influences...I like the way Chinese long gowns have the high slit now :D Much thanks to the Mongols for that little design change. Now we get to see more leg!

uheem, I believe the slit you are refering to was a Manchurian influence.

The Mongolian fighting style during the expansion days probably was not influence much by CMA b/c their conquest of China was relative late in the building of the empire after Ghengis had died and was completed during the reign of one of his grandson. Second, after ghengis died, his empire was divided into four part each with its own independent adminstration. So, the China region would not be able to influence the Sibera, Central Asia and India region,

The Mongolian wrestling did influence the chinese shuai jiao system. The Bejing Shuai Chiao has heavy boke influence. Those mongolian knockle heads sure can wrestle.

It also destroy a good portion of CMA as the mongolian adminstration banned the practice of CMA (which lasted about one hundred years).

wm

[wentwest]

I was in Mongolia about four months ago on a job. Lived out in the Steppes with a Nomadic herding tribe in their Ail. Filmed quite a few Mongolian Wrestling matches, including several with an "Eagle," which is either a three or four time tournament champion (I forget if it's three or four). He was a pretty good wrestler. They had some very cool moves and throws. Drank a lot of Arak and also horse mare's milk vodka... awfully gamey and very strong stuff. They like to drink that stuff before and after the wrestling!

[Unmatchable]

They never flattened Poland and Hungary, Ukraine was the ****hest they got.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
They never flattened Poland and Hungary, Ukraine was the ****hest they got.

This is true - the Khan died when they were partway through Poland so they turned around and went home. To this day the Poles still celebrate their 'victory' over the Mongols.

[David Jamieson]

There is reems of information on the subject of Tamujin and his heirs and the history of the Khans.

Tamujin (Ghengis Khan) is the most prolific conqueror in recorded history.

cheers

[wentwest]

In Mongolia, they refer to Ghengis Khan as "Chingis Khan," pronounced "Ching-iss." Why do we in the West refer to him as "Ghengis." Does anyone know?

[David Jamieson]

fo-net-iks

and the letter L

cheers

[Archangel]

The Mongols were at the gates of Vienna.

http://www.equine-behavior.com/A%20History%20of%20the%20Thoroughbred/Thoroughbred%20part%204.htm


Check out the section titled "Conquest of Hungary". It states that they were at Klosternuburg outside of Vienna and outside of Udine.

http://www.lvcm.com/argent/ha/mongols.html


Book Review:

What If? The World's Foremost Military Historians Imagine What Might Have Been, What If? Strategic Alternatives of WWII by Harold Deutsch and Dennis Showalter
Reviewed by Mr Ronald Hee -

-6th Paragraph Down-

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/safti/pointer/back/journals/2002/Vol28_1/9.htm


This one is taken from what seams to be a white supremacy site.

http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/cyprus/125/march/32/

[Archangel]

History of the Mongols, where they implictly state that in 1241 they reached the Vienna and withdrew 1242

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2532/page9.html

CHeck out 1242, Feb

http://daycon.users.btopenworld.com/kc03mongolhistory.html



Or maybe just go to http://www.google.com and type in

mongols vienna 1241

and see the hundreds of pages that come up verifying that they indeed crossed the Danube and were on the verge of annihilating Europe.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
**** what made them so effective though?

What kind of tactics, weapons, fighting arts did they use that made them so unstoppable?


Mobile warefare (the awe of shock and awe). The greatest wager of mobile warefare up to that time. They can cover a lot more distance than their opponents can back in the days. They show up on people's front door when least expected. Consider one of the best horsemen of their time.

Psy Op (the shock)- those who resist are completely burn to the ground. those who surrender are allowed to live. They made their atrocities known far and wide, so by the time they start to knock on the next city gate, the dewellers were already frigthen to death.

They are adaptive and will employ foreign people if they find these foreigner trustworthy. I seem to recall they had a large contingent of non-mongolian troops.

wm

[Losttrak]

Mongols (XiongNu, they were known as I believe) lived under the shadow of The Middle Kingdom, aka China, for ages. There is documentation of them creating pacts to tip the scales of certain conflicts so they were involved, in some degree, in the political structure of China. You gotta remember that wars had been raging for hundreds of years before the Mongols ever made their move. They had seen some of the most celebrated generals and tacticians China had ever known (Lu Xun, Zhuge Liang, Sima Yi, etc etc) rise and fall. You might say they had a front row seat to some of the best teaching around.

As far as having the largest army, I dont necessarily think that is true. At the Battle of Red Cliffs (Chibi), there were rumored to be 1.5 million soldiers just from the kingdom of Wei. When the battle was over, 800,000 of the Wei kingdom allegedly died.... imagine the carnage. My point is that when compared of many European armies (European being the history most of us read), it would be considered large... that and the Mongols are one of the only "asian" armies to ever head West (we arent including Indians/Persians/or anything else).

I'll say this... the Mongols should have learned to seige a city. =D

Just my two cents.

[Losttrak]

Here is an interesting link:

http://www.coldsiberia.org/webdoc3.htm

"1215: Peking, then called Zhongdu, fell to Chingis Khan. The Chinese enjoyed numerical superiority, they had 600 000 defenders against the much more disciplined and morally strong Mongols, numbering no more than 75 000 men. This achievement of the Mongols defies the imagination, but it was a fact. When the Mongols succeeded in taking this large city, it marked a new level of ability on the part of the Mongols. Formerly, they had difficulty with successful warfare against fortified cities, although they had always been formidable in the field. Chingis Khan had been aware of this weakness, and had wisely enlisted Chinese siege engineers and their equipment, a strategy that would prove successful in China as well as in subsequent campaigns against the Khwarezmians."

[Archangel]

I wonder if this is where Nazi Germanys infamous Blitzkrieg was developed; definately the same sort of concepts. It's still seems remarkable how the Mongols were able to decimate Europe's German and Teutonic Knights in open battle.

To my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong) the Mongols were lightly armored and didn't have sophisticated infantry divisions if any.

[Losttrak]

Mongols = largest cavalry every fielded

The chinese have a saying:

"When the thunder claps, its too late to cover your ears."

They knew the benefit of deciding and therefore arriving at the battlefield first. I believe Hitler was no stranger to Sun Tzu either... tho I cant rememeber where I read that.

Anyways, there could be another reason for their victories psychologically. Mongols had alot of momentum and their reputation was pretty scary. Plus, the Germanic peoples, if history books are of any worth, werent exactly the most organized people... politically. On the other side of the coin, the cohesion of a purely asian force in a Western land had to be pretty strong. Its not as if its a quick trip back home. Plus, the only people who look, talk, and act like you are your fellow brethren in arms. Fighting with your people against strange foreigners has to provide a very strong morale boost, even moreso since they have already had such success.

[joedoe]

I remember seeing a documentary on the Mongol armies. Two things stuck in my mind:

1) While the Mongols wore light armour (in most cases only leather armour) they wore silk undershirts which was extremely effective in stopping arrows.

2) Their light armour and horsemanship provided them mobility that none of the European armies had. Furthermore, their ability to use their bows on horseback in any direction meant that they could attack in retreat.

[wentwest]

Decimate technically means to kill one in ten or a 10% casualty rate, although I notice in modern usage it seems to have taken on a broader definition of to kill or destroy a large portion of.

Hmmmm.....

That seems very dualistic.

[Archangel]

There definately was a psychological factor involved. For months, the Europeans were hearing stories about the Mongol Hordes leveling everything in their path. It was sort of like Keyser Soze from the movie The Usual Suspects.

It is puzzling though, was the fear of the Mongols so great that it literally paralised the Europeans. You would think that a people would fight harder defending their homes, families and their way of life from foreign invaders than they would for conquest. Look at the North Vietnamese, even though they suffered massive casualties they were relentless and never gave up. They kept coming and coming until the Americans who were thousands of miles away from home finally lost the stomach for it.

It's not like the Mongols were invincible, they did lose to the Mamluks in Palestine.

[Bayanbulag]

Hi all,

Nice to see that so many of you have so much interest on mongols! I have been interested of them whole my life.

I hope that i can give you some information about the mongols and their tactics:
I have read that every (or allmost every) soldier used two bows in battle, one long range and one short range. The long range bow were capable to kill at double length than any other bow at that time. This was of course great benefit for mongols. They could surround the enemy whit their horses and slaughter them.

They also used used infantry. In one tactic the infantry was in first line and they "soften" the enemy with their bows, then the horsemen would charge trough the infantry line and kill the rest, or something like that. I read that this tactic was very efficient.

The Mongols also used lots of diplomacy and espionage. First they put the tribes, which they will attack, in war against each other and then attack at the point when the enemy were weakest. They also started rebellions and revolutions in thous nations. They would attack when least expected and from places and areas where least expected.

As some of you wrote that they weren't good at capturing cities, thats right, but they used another tactic. First they occupied lands surrounding the city and then just wait that the city would fall.

I've allways been wondering why you english speekers use 'Ghengis' Khan. That is very strange version of the Great Khan. Someone of you used Chingis. That is much better. In finnish we use Tsingis-kaani (-kaani=khan).

I hope you understand my bad english.
Have nice day or night or what ever it is there,
Bayanbulag

[Bayanbulag]

I am sorry, i have to correct some of my earlier writings.

((They also used used infantry. In one tactic the infantry was in first line and they "soften" the enemy with their bows, then the horsemen would charge trough the infantry line and kill the rest, or something like that. I read that this tactic was very efficient.))

This was little bit wrong.
This Tsingis Khan made tactic was more like this:
There was five rows separated whit wide distance between them. First was heavy charging cavalry, armed with sword, lance and maze. Behind of these were waiting horsemen with bows. Then these archers charged trough the heavy cavalry and shooted all the time. When they arrived nearer the enemy they changed long range bow to short range bows and heavier arrows. Then they split enemy lines, and when the enemy was in chaos the heavy chavalry came to finish the job. These mongolian tactics were trained so good that timing was perfect and there was no comands shouted. For comands they used only flags.

[Archangel]

Bayanbulag,

That is really interesting, the Mongols were like a well oiled machine on the battlefield. There is no boubt in my mind that Vienna would have been crushed; tell me... Do you think the rest of Europe could have withstood a full on Western surge by the Mongols. It seemed that European armor was no match for the Mongolian bow.

[Bayanbulag]

Archangel,

I think that europeans would't have any chance at all against mongols. We europeans just had great luck when Ogodai Khan drunk himself to death and the army turned back to the funeral.
Yes the mongolian bows were very good and the mongolian soldiers allways carried many different kind of arrows, like armor piercing arrows. And the european knights whit their armors were just too slow against mongolian quick armies.

[Archangel]

It was really humbling for me being of European decent to read about the Mongols. Being from the west we obviously have a very Eurocentric (white) perspective on things. I wonder what the world would be like if Ogedai Khan didn't die and the Mongols kept surging west. Maybe Christopher Columbus wouldn't have sailed; maybe there wouldn't have been a Naploeon Bonaparte and maybe there wouldn't have been an Industrial Revolution.

If the Mongol Hordes did reach the Atlantic we would be all looking at the world through Asian eyes right now.

[Vash]

They should have at least fugged most of the women in England. Clean that effing gene-pool!

:eek:

:o

:(

:D

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Archangel
It was really humbling for me being of European decent to read about the Mongols. Being from the west we obviously have a very Eurocentric (white) perspective on things. I wonder what the world would be like if Ogedai Khan didn't die and the Mongols kept surging west. Maybe Christopher Columbus wouldn't have sailed; maybe there wouldn't have been a Naploeon Bonaparte and maybe there wouldn't have been an Industrial Revolution.

If the Mongol Hordes did reach the Atlantic we would be all looking at the world through Asian eyes right now.

Well, Mongol control of Europe may not have meant that those things wouldn't have happened. There is certainly no reason why Christopher Columbus might not have sailed, or the occurrence of the industrial revolution. Napoleon is a whole different matter though :)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Vash
They should have at least fugged most of the women in England. Clean that effing gene-pool!

:eek:

:o

:(

:D

From what I saw of the women in London, and the English women who flooded Sydney a few months ago for the rugby world cup, there is nothing wrong with the English gene pool :D

[Bayanbulag]

It was really humbling for me being of European decent to read about the Mongols. Being from the west we obviously have a very Eurocentric (white) perspective on things. I wonder what the world would be like if Ogedai Khan didn't die and the Mongols kept surging west. Maybe Christopher Columbus wouldn't have sailed; maybe there wouldn't have been a Naploeon Bonaparte and maybe there wouldn't have been an Industrial Revolution. If the Mongol Hordes did reach the Atlantic we would be all looking at the world through Asian eyes right now.

Well, we saw that the Mongolian Empire didn't last wery long time, so i don't belive that it could have lasted in Europe eather. But of course we would have more mongolian blood, like people have in Central Asia.

[Archangel]

joejoe,

You're right, you never know what would have happened. Christopher Columbus could have still sailed and Napoleon Bonaparte could have still been born... but I willing to bet that they would have had looked a lot different with smaller slanted eyes ;)

[Chinwoo-er]

I dunno, I dont' see it as being that big a thing even if the Monguls did conqour everything. I mean the mongulians were great conqourers, but horrible administrators. The kept expanding their boarders but did relatively little in terms of internal stuff. Hence, even if they did rule the world at a time, I am pretty sure that it would have fallen just as quickly. And history would have been back to more or less what it is now.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Chinwoo-er
I dunno, I dont' see it as being that big a thing even if the Monguls did conqour everything. I mean the mongulians were great conqourers, but horrible administrators. The kept expanding their boarders but did relatively little in terms of internal stuff. Hence, even if they did rule the world at a time, I am pretty sure that it would have fallen just as quickly. And history would have been back to more or less what it is now.

Isn't it possible though that they might have seen something in Europe that they felt was worth adapting to and maybe then you might have ended up with a something that was an amalgamation of European administration and Mongol military power - possibly an even greater force to be reckoned with.

[Chinwoo-er]

They did that when they took down china. Adapted almost everything China had then. But it still came down.

[diego]

Good thread!.

[KC Elbows]

I thought Kublai was considered a strong administrator? Perhaps I'm incorrect on that.

Also, am I correct that the mongols attacked after the rest of the region was spent from the crusades? That it was a combo of mongol military might and timing?

Oh, yeah, almost forgot...

http://www.airtoons.com/toons.php?toon=22

[Shaolinlueb]

was it peter the great who finally chased the monghols out of russia? they cut russia off from the rest of europe for hundreds of years right?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Chinwoo-er
I dunno, I dont' see it as being that big a thing even if the Monguls did conqour everything. I mean the mongulians were great conqourers, but horrible administrators. The kept expanding their boarders but did relatively little in terms of internal stuff. Hence, even if they did rule the world at a time, I am pretty sure that it would have fallen just as quickly. And history would have been back to more or less what it is now.

There is a Chinese saying, "You can conquer a country on horseback. But you cannot govern it on horseback". This is the reason why the vast Mongol Empire did not last very long.

[Bayanbulag]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
I thought Kublai was considered a strong administrator? Perhaps I'm incorrect on that.

Yes, Kublai Khan was great leader and started the Yuan-dynasty in China, but his successors were poor emperors. They couldn't keep chinese happy and they treated them very badly, so the Yuan falled quickly.


Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
was it peter the great who finally chased the monghols out of russia? they cut russia off from the rest of europe for hundreds of years right?

In Russia there was first mongolian khanate called Golden Orda. If i remember right it lasted about one or two hundred years. After that there was smaller khanates, like Kazan, Krim, Sibir... They didn't last very long time exept Krim, but it was actually turkish. I think almost all mongolians were out from mainland Russia much before Peter the Great, but i don't remember was it he who started the ivasion to Siberia and Central Asia. Actually in Sothern Russia there is still mongolians called Kalmuks in their own autonomic rebublic.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Archangel
and maybe there wouldn't have been an Industrial Revolution.
Given the Mongols' and their cousins the Japanese' aptitude for seeking out, assimilating and improving available technology I find this an odd statement. And apart from mobility I also find it odd that nobody mentioned this, their technological superiority at the time: mobile artillery; shells, grenades, and their seigework was not so bad with their diversion of rivers into cities etc.

Maybe it would have been sooner, and more efficient.
Or sooner and horribly restricted by custom... the real reason for their failure to conquer Europe.

[yuanfen]

The Mongols were on the way to Paris. Dont forget- the Mongol involvement in South Asia. Genghis just raided but later a Mongol leader turned back from Turkey and went south several times and finally established the Moghul(Mongol) dynasty in the Indian subcontinent. They had already shifted to Islam. They absorbed
Indian many aspects of Indian culture and brought in many things that were fused into Indian culture. They didnt create always what they brought in but were vehicles of transmission.... from west and east
Persian aesthetics, Persian became the court language,... Mongolian wrestling added new throws as they also had transformed shuichao, dress(horse riding pants influence).
Their huge round tents created mobile supply and r and R links.
Their horsemanship was more mobile than the xisting role of horses and elephants in the Indian formations.

[jun_erh]

I just read this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300076096/104-9828766-6698306?v=glance) a while ago. It had a page or two and some pics of the wrestlers. It was good. I don't know science at all and I still liked it. They have snow leapords, desert bears, and a plethora of wild asses

[LEGEND]

"It's still seems remarkable how the Mongols were able to decimate Europe's German and Teutonic Knights in open battle."

In an History Channel documentary on the Mongols it showed their battle stragedy against the knights. They would lure the opposing army onto an open field by launching a calvary attack...then they back off and let the army chase them...but being on horseback the Mongols could not be caught...the opposing army is now in range for the Mongols arrows. What is left of the opposing army is picked off by the calvary.

[WanderingMonk]

TV programming note for people in the states: This upcoming week, the history channel is running a special series, "the barbarians are coming", featuring the most fearsome barbarians ever to descend upon the plain of Europe: Goths, Huns, vikings, and Mongols.

Lock the door, hide the women folks and children, the barbarians are coming!!!!!!!!

Check your local listing for time and station.

[WanderingMonk]

A new book on Ghengis Khan is being published based on the "secret history of the mongols". Maybe one of the amateur historians in the forum might be interested.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040322/misc/22briefs.lede.htm

HISTORY: Genghis Khan, statesman
To most historians, Genghis Khan and the Mongol Hordes who stormed across most of Asia, the Middle East, and Russia in the late 12th century have stood for little more than slaughter and pillage. But Genghis has gotten a bad rap, says Macalester College anthropologist Jack Weatherford.

The great Genghis was actually something of a modern state builder who left his legacy in laws and ideas, Weatherford argues in Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, out this month. Everywhere he went, he decreed religious freedom and spurred a movement of commerce and culture that connected Europe with Asia for the first time and sowed the seeds of the Renaissance. "Genghis Khan laid the foundations for medieval globalization," agrees John Woods, a University of Chicago historian.

Many of the revelations come from the "Secret History of the Mongols," probably written by a member of Genghis Khan's family after his death. It turned up in a Beijing archive in the 19th century, but until recently scholars were thwarted by the peculiar code in which it was written--medieval Mongolian spelled out in Chinese characters--and by Communist officials who feared a rise of Genghis-inspired Mongolian nationalism. The "Secret History" reveals military and administrative tactics--and some startling human details. The child who became the fearsome Genghis Khan was afraid of dogs and prone to tear

[Vash]

I'm gonna get me a Mongol Horde. Then, I'm gonna totally wreck my neighbor's sh!t.