North vs South (mantis)

[blackmantis]

Hello all!

As a practitioner of northern praying mantis i am very interested in its relationship with southern praying mantis.

I know very little of the southern mantis style, and would very much like to be told more about the style.

S

[askinghands]

check out this site. Lots of info on southern mantis.

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/sm.html

[red5angel]

I can tell you this much, they look pretty similar but my impression of Northern Mantis (I study Southern) is that it is very similar to Southern except stretched out.

[mantis-1]

Northern Mantis looks nothing like southern mantis mechanics, body position and foot work is all different. I think this is a comment you may have made before on this forum, but I asure you northern looks nothing like southern. Northern favours the mantis hook (thats not to say it doesnt use any other fists) for hooking and finding an opening. In southern mantis we dont use the hook and most strikes are with the phoenix eye fist or palm (there are other fist though) I would imagine the power generation is completely different also.

regards

[red5angel]

uh, are you talking to me mantis-1? I have never made that comment before, although now I am. A freind of mine does Northern Mantis, I do Southern Mantis, and while I wouldn't refer to us as kungfu masters, we both know enough to have come to the conclusion that they are indeed pretty similar. Sadly, while I am sure this may outrage some people, mostly those firmly entrenched in either camp, it doesn't take much of an eye to see some strong similarities. I can allow for some basic differences but for the most part they do indeed look similar, atleast in form and I have to imagine application as well.

As for mechanics being totally different, again, I have to disagree, first, human beings practice them, which narrows the available mechanics. Second, they stem from the same ancestor, their too similar to have not ;), and so that again narrows the difference in mechanics. Third, it's chinese kungfu, and while martial artist lve to fight amongst themselves over the differences in their arts (somehow this is supposed to vindicate their claims that they are better then others) the chinese arts generally share some fundamental body mechanics and ideas. It's ALL about alignment, power generation, connection, sensitivity, etc...and I have never talked ot a martial artist who hasn't said the same basic things, except with a new spin, or atleast a different one.
As for specifics, the hooks are there, but they may be more obvious in northern mantis, or your own family of mantis may have excluded them for some reason or another.
What I'm getting at is that while you might want to believe they are that much different mantis-1 they are not, in a general sense, and while our northern brothers might like to stretch out a little more I've found that all the essentials and basics are very similar. Anyone who stops and bothers to take the time to watch a few forms from each and take a look at some techniques will see it. I know, it's shocking and scandalous ofme to imply that ant art might be the same, especially not Northern and Southern Arts :eek: , but I'll take the chance on being honest for once, and risk all that money I could make by teaching exclusive styles and secret ad more deadly techniques to beat all those other pretenders out there.:rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with mantis-1. From what I understand these styles have no common origin. The southern mantis comes from the Hakka people. And the Northern Mantis is a derivative of Nothern Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu. The whole strategy and mechanics of these styles appear to be different. FYI, I have former Southern Mantis and Northern Mantis practictioners in my school so I have first hand experience watching and sparring with both.

[mantis-1]

sorry if I came across rude but this topic has come up time and time again...... I am not outraged at all but it is obvious to anyone who has seen northern mantis and southern mantis that they are different.
It's ALL about alignment, power generation, connection, sensitivity, etc... you are correct but this applies to every style of king fu from eagle claw to ba gua..... but these style are in no way similar to SPM.
The hook in Northern mantis I have never seen in southern mantis and asked mt sifu was it found in our style he said no. From the northern mantis I have seen there was a lot of chambering the fist there is no chambering of the fist within SPM.
As for the same ancestor who created both style????
May I ask who your teacher and style is I am interested to know what style of SPM you train and the differences between yours and the style I train chow gar.

Regards
Tim

[Eddie]

sorry, this might sound like a stupid question, but where does Wah Lum fall under? I am fascinated by their forms and the flexibility and skill of their Grandmaster, Chan Poi.

[Ou Ji]

Northern and Southern Mantis are not alike at all from what I've seen. Recently, I read somewhere (here?) that Southern Mantis is actually another style that was renamed to cover up it's origins or something like that. I'll have to track that story down again since it was very interesting but I don't recall the details.

Wah Lum is Northern Mantis. You can find them posting in the Northern Praying Mantis forum if you have any questions.

[mantis-1]

ou ji... you are right.
The story goes......when the manchurians invaded china a lot of nobles fled and found shelter in the southern temples. One of these nobles from the ming imperial court Chow Ah Naam developed the Southern mantis boxing style (apparently from watching the mantids in the forrest) over the years he developed a style with a shorter learning time than most styles to help over throw the ching invasion. It was also said that the style was called mantis as to confuse manchurian soldiers that it was the same as the northern version. As stated by F. Blanco: The relation, or should it be better to say the lack of relationship between Northern mantis and Southern mantis is similar to Fujian White Crane and Tibetan White crane. They seem to have absolutley nothing in common but the same name.

[David]

I know of one Hakka historian who links Northern and Southern mantis but that doesn't make for any similarity. Visually, the styles both have mantis-like characteristics but they're drawn by different artists, if you see what I mean.

Northern mantis is a longfist system and Southern is shorthand. The only longfist-associated methods to be found in Southern mantis would probably be the common chin na (kum na) methods.

IME, the North and South systems can instantly be distinguished from any pose or motion as easy as telling the difference between Muay Thai and Tai Chi.

Rgds,
David

[red5angel]

First I am going to bust in here and say that I don't buy most of the "creation" myths behind kungfu. Each style has some fantastic story about how or why it was created, usually involving some historical figure, or some desire to create an art that defeats some other art or family of arts. These creation myths are flash to add mystique to these arts, designed to get you all pumped up about what your learning. Everything I have read and seen leads me to believe both arts have a common ancestor. It's actually pretty common for Northern and Southern arts to share a common ancestor, but they won't tell you that, too much rivalry and all that other ridiculous crap that has gone on for far too long in the chinese martial arts.
As for another art being named as Southern Mantis, I've heard similar stuff, it doesn't matter to me what the name is, it was created by observing the motions and actions of a preying mantis, same as Northern Style Mantis.

mantis-1 its bamboo forest southern preying mantis, I learn from Jack Spizale a student of Master Gin Fun Mark.


IME, the North and South systems can instantly be distinguished from any pose or motion as easy as telling the difference between Muay Thai and Tai Chi.

I wouldn't go that far but they are certainly different. Most Northern arts share the long forms, the reching and stretching, while short forms tend towards infighting, short techniques. Some are more obvious, some not so obvious and while both northern and southern mantis can be individually identified by their forms, they are hardly completely different.

[mantis-1]

There is a lot of info out there on Gin foon mark looking at Gin foon Marks hand I see nothing that resembles northern mantis..... you are right in saying that both arts originated by studying the mantids... As I see it the northern mantis resembles the actual movements of a mantis where as its southern counterpart studied the mantis to develop the incredible shock power released by the mantis... if these two arts originated from the same ancestor I am pretty sure there would be some evidence somewhere, and still there is the issue of the styles themselves... they look nothing alike as people on this forum have observed and stated that it is obvious looking at the two styles that they look different and one is easily distinguishable from the other...... though most of my training is in Chow gar I did do I some years of Jooklum and I didn't seem anything like NPM in that either...

[David]

Maybe there's an anachronistic Northern mantis style which appears more like Southern... What style does your mate study, Red5?

Rgds,
David

[mantis108]

Here's a thread that I started regarding various accounts of Shaolin Kung Fu origins. Enjoy

Northern and SouthernShaolin (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=27016)

From there we could go on to various styles. There is a possible southern connection to Fujian in Taiji Praying Mantis tradition through GM Li BingXiao. There is a possible southern connection to the Songshan Shaolin in 7 Star PM through GM Wong Yunsheng. IMHO, there is not such thing as mystic creationism in Kung Fu. It is about evolution and the needs of the practitioners.

Mantis108

[red5angel]

As I see it the northern mantis resembles the actual movements of a mantis where as its southern counterpart studied the mantis to develop the incredible shock power released by the mantis...

and as I see it Southern Mantis looks like the movement of Mantis as well, very much so in fact and that is where I feel they are similar, to me they both look like someone took their ideas from the way a preying mantis moves and fights and translated it to the human body. As for shock power it is indeed in Southern Mantis, and I assume it is in northern too.

I too have said they are easily distinguished from each other, I would probably not mistake one for the other after observing for a few brief moments, because as I stated in my original post, N. mantis appears to be like S Mantis for the most part except stretched out. I am sure there are some differences, much like differences between say the lineages of wing chun, but there are also many similiarities.

David, I'll have to ask him as I can't say offhand what it is. I just remember stopping by his kwoon one night and watching run through a few of his N. Mantis forms. When he was done he walkd over and asked if it looked familiar. I said yes, it looks like Southern Mantis stretched out.


ultimately, the only real difference I can see, is that Northern Mantis probably requires a little more stamina and flexibility as they cultivate the so called long power, while southern mantis is a more energy efficient (warning: I am not saying it is better) form. Both have their strengths and weaknesses and as with most martial arts and their families the similarities are enough thta you could slide from one to the other without much more hard work.

[Fu-Pow]

I too have said they are easily distinguished from each other, I would probably not mistake one for the other after observing for a few brief moments, because as I stated in my original post, N. mantis appears to be like S Mantis for the most part except stretched out. I am sure there are some differences, much like differences between say the lineages of wing chun, but there are also many similiarities.

So you are saying Northern and Southern Mantis are different branches of the same lineage? I don't think that is correct. Northern Mantis is not Southern Mantis stretched out. They're not even anything alike except on the most superficial level...that is that they are called Mantis. The power generation, strategies, stances, hand formations, etc. are all COMPLETELY different. Southern Mantis has more in common with arts like Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Wing Chun, White Crane or even Hung Ga than it does with an art like Northern Praying Mantis which is a Shaolin Long Fist derivative. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it seems to be way off.

[Sam]

Sam Dot-Lee Siem-Wang Lang combine their knowledge to create Tong Long Pai. Wang Lang went to the north.

[Glimmer]

Unless there are any qualified chinese historians who can prove me otherwise, I think it is clear that Northern Tang Lang and Southern Tong Long are completely different and only have a name in common.

The southern style, as already mentioned by more knowledgable people then I, was created within the Hakka chinese community and northern mantis was not. These two styles are different cultural constructions and only share the principle of vaguely resembling a mantis insect.

[yu shan]

Wah Lum is Northern PM. That being said, WL contains alot of southern KF influence, not Southern PM though. More along the lines of Hung Gar and CLF.

[David]

The 3rd post in this thread (http://www.britishbornchinesedb.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12001&highlight=northern+mantis) argues that Southern comes from Northern.

It's a long thread. The next time you see mantis mentioned is on page 10 where I make my entrance (with username "fenix"). The original poster then responds over the next page or so.

I'm not entirely convinced but the link might be "Chuka Phoenix-eye Fist" which seems to be Northern legs and more recognisable Southern Hakka arms.

Rgds,
David

[red5angel]

So you are saying Northern and Southern Mantis are different branches of the same lineage? I don't think that is correct. Northern Mantis is not Southern Mantis stretched out. They're not even anything alike except on the most superficial level...that is that they are called Mantis. The power generation, strategies, stances, hand formations, etc. are all COMPLETELY different. Southern Mantis has more in common with arts like Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Wing Chun, White Crane or even Hung Ga than it does with an art like Northern Praying Mantis which is a Shaolin Long Fist derivative. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it seems to be way off.


I am saying that they probably share a common ancestor somewhere along the way because they do indeed resemble each other other then in name. Take that for what you want to.
As for everything being completely different, is it required of Northern Mantis people to grow extra limbs? Do they somehow require other joints or a not so human musculature? Do they fly? Is gravity null around them? I fou ansered no to any of these statements then you are wrong in your surmisation that they are completely different in power generation, strategies, etc.....
Of course this is why some CMA practitioners spend more time arguing each other then learning how to fight or learning their particular art. They want to be convinced so badly that they have something different or special that the idea that something out there might be related in some way or another and especially north vs south, internal vs external and what ever line kungfu guys like to draw.

[Jook Lum]

How is your Sam Bo gin going(three step arrow)?

[David]

red5angel, where are you coming from? :rolleyes:

It's not egotistical or political to claim a difference in style. You don't need an alien body for an art to have no resemblance to another. Wing Chun and Choy Lay Fut; Monkey style and Eagle Claw.

Differences between NPM and SPM.
1. NPM has many more techniques and forms and weapons but:
2. SPM techniques are not found in NPM.
3. Power-generation is utterly different.
4. Stance and footwork are utterly different, including kicking philosophy.

http://www.martialartmantis.com/images/philip034.jpg
http://www.martialartmantis.com/images/philip038.jpg

The following link shows things which are generic in nature and could be SPM except the hands are used differently.

http://www.martialartmantis.com/picgallery12.html

Rgds,
David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

That is a poor example of northern prayingmantis kung fu.

Didn't Jacky Chan train in all forms of martial arts? In his book, he said all kung fu was pretty much the same. It was boxing that was different. Afterall, kung fu all came from china. They were one of the most advanced societies. With over 3,000 years of civilisation, I'm sure the knowledge would have intermingled between north and south. It takes less time to travel around the world.

red5angel is correct. Praying mantis is all the same as it originated from shaolin temple. SPM emphasises more on practical self defence whereas, NPM is more about developing an inner sense of well being much like tai chi.

[David]

Life's too short to listen to your nonsense.

If you address any more of your twisted maunderings to me, I'm simply going to put you on my ignore list.

You have yet to make an untainted contribution on this forum which is quite a record for someone with nearly 400 posts.

Rgds,
David

[cerebus]

He's not on your "ignore" list YET?? :eek: A bit slow on the draw there aren't ya'?

[Tainan Mantis]

Hey Mantis108, thanks for that story I wanted to write that history bit, but I didn't want to dig it up.

Having studied and seen many styles of PM I notice that just comparing Northern versions among Northern versions will lead to great confusion as the differences are sometimes huge.

Northern contains, traditionally speaking, a lot of short techniques.
According to what is written in the manuscripts of old Northern Mantis it is based principally on the chopping smashing techniqes.

The small bit of Southern Mantis I was introduced to was explained as using chopping techniques that, at least to me, were like Northern Mantis.

So I will keep my eye open to a possible link between Northern and Southern.