View Full Version : Anyone heard of S.C.A.R.S?

09-25-2000, 07:36 PM
They claim that they can defeat any style because they have no defensive techniques, only finishing moves. I think its bull, I think they have a lot of techniques and act like they are doing something revolutionary that no one else has done before.

8Step Sifu

09-25-2000, 07:43 PM
They don't defend, just deliver finishing blows? Must be some tough suckers to take solid hits and kicks... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Without going outside,
you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window,
you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

Black Jack
09-25-2000, 09:21 PM
I have never seen SCARS in action so I can not vouch for its system but it was one of the systems taught to the SEALS at one time or another...what it boils down to is mental mindset and a killer instinct...from what I hear is that some of the stuff is very good but not new by any means.

There have been a few systems taught to the SEAL teams over the years in either a package or an ongoing seminar course. These systems have been SAFTA, SCARS and of course the "RAT" program which I know more about as it is part of my school, it is from Paul Vunack/PFS a top gun JKDC instructor who also teaches the DEA,FBI and numerous law enforcement groups throughout America in CQC and unarmed combat tactics.

Roy Harris the V.P. of PFS has trained the Polish army and is now going to be leaving for Russia to train an agency there as well.

I can understand the blocking comment as blocking IMHO is a waste of time when other options are present such destructions (striking the incoming limb in lew of a block/taking the limb out of play) and evading/striking.

I understand that there is a need for checking and this is important in the in-fighting range as it could lead to a important trap that could open up a clear line of attack but in the boxing range if you have time to block you have the same time to hit the limb or evade/counterattack or even intercept the oncoming attacker with a strike of your own.

To me I would much rather hit then defend as the person who is busy blocking is not busy hitting.

Fighting is clumsy and a vast assortment of angles may or may not be in play at the time of the fight so I think that it is important to keep your defenses simple and easy to remeber.

To block all of the creative angles and strikes out there that may come at you...you would have to REMEBER AUTOMACTICALY a large number of different technical blocks to stop these unkown attacks, where if you just learn to strike the attacking limb be it with a gunting (scissor movement) or simple punch you unload a lot of stuff that may just confuse you in a real situation.

I do not know much about SCARS but the concept of not blocking has been around a long time. The simple goal in the "RAT" program is to get into the in-fighting range after inflicting pain in the probing stage so you can apply the BIG GUNS...elbows,headbutts and knees on the attacker and take him out by using the tools that give you the most damage ratio.

The SEALS do not have years to learn martial arts...they sometimes only have only have hours to pick up the tools that may help bring them home that day.


09-26-2000, 01:24 AM
Hi 8steps,
Hey, a Wing Chun pal of mine who was a state level wrestler here in Okie land...Daniel, actually went to the SCARS institute and trained for a weekend at a seminar. He basically did it, because alot of us were wondering what it was all about and wondered if any of their claims were true.
From what he reported to us, it was basically a dirty street fighting style, nothing new, nothing impressive.

09-26-2000, 04:05 AM
The SEALS do not have years to learn martial arts...they sometimes only have only have hours to pick up the tools that may help bring them home that day.

What a crock!!!

SEALs don't have time to train?!!! What kind of crap is that? They may not spend time on a lot of h2h simply because it's not how they operate. If they felt it was needed they would be finding the time. That whole line of reasoning seems to have become more of a marketing mantra than reality. I've become very wary of anything that is an acronym, SCARS, SAFTA, RAT(which coming from Vu I had to look at and was very disappointed with) and pitched as taught to people with more acronyms for id's.

I heard SAFTA was lifted from SCARS which was lifted from Jimmy Woos San Soo. I think Vunak is sincere about RAT but I don't see it doing much good against a trained fighter. I like limb destructions but they are not foolproof and leave you open. That's a lesson I recently learned first hand from a old Green Beret.

[This message was edited by rogue on 09-26-00 at 09:15 PM.]

09-26-2000, 04:10 AM
in every issue of inside kung fu they have a full page ad.it sounded pretty ridiculous,claiming he took a bunch of untrained guys,trained them for a few hrs and they were easily defeating "gurus" with 20,30+ years in MA's.sounded like a bunch of B.S. to me.

09-26-2000, 09:00 AM
ive seen the tape on the scares and safta my friend bought them, there style is san soo mixed but has some intersting points that relate to tradional kung fu. auto kinematic reations etc.

some of the techniques though, took to long to and many of them went to the ground. i rate it 7 out of 10. it isnt traditional but still good for a novice. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

09-26-2000, 03:57 PM
Complete and total frauds.

Black Jack
09-26-2000, 05:16 PM
Rouge do you even know any SEALS? One of my friends is a SEAL and no these guys are shooters first and foremost and not martial artists on the average by any means.

Whats a crock about that statement? They do not have years to train in traditional martial arts training (like it would do them any good for what they need) to do stance work for hours and work on forms intell they are blue in the face...they may only have a few hours of hand to hand combat training when compared to there massive intell of other information.

They will take on going h2h seminars from time to time as is dictated but no they do not have years to waste on martial arts training...they need a quick and easy set of tools to remeber that when applied have a good chance of success.

The "RAT" program is just a effective set of simple tools...though he does not teach the SEALS anymore, the "RAT" program is taught to the San Diego DEA (Jeff Clancey) FBI, local law enforcement agencies across the country and even forgien (sp?) military like Polish army units.

As for the trained fighter bit I would have to disagree as there are many more factors in a fight than a system vrs a system.

I did not see these groups going out and learing set styles such as TKD or Hung Gar as there h2h course...wonder why?

Valraven where do you get off putting down a those systems that you know nothing about? Is it because they dont have nifty forms like attack of the killer 10,000 bees?


[This message was edited by Black Jack on 09-27-00 at 10:22 AM.]

09-26-2000, 05:31 PM
How do you know what I know or don't know about.
I have seen their stuff. I have trained with
former students of these courses.
Make no mistakes- These marketing ploys are not styles. What they are, are a simplistic hodge-podge of different concepts from pre-established system. I have been in the military. I have trained with SEALS, Rangers and
Marines. Speaking strickly from a hand to hand basis,on the whole, they CAN'T fight. Those that could, had prior martial arts training.
Anyone who has been training more than five weeks
could see the crap that these courses are trying to sell us.
I don't know what your experience is with these
guys, and you are entitled to your oppinion, but please know, I never comment an anything I haven't trained or seen first hand.

09-26-2000, 05:34 PM
I worked out with a SEAL guy for a bit.SCARS serves its purpose,to give highly trained(in RL warfare) individuals that are in excellent shape with intense mind focus some basic,effective tools so that they will be able to function in the rare event that they get into hand to hand combat and dont have a knife or other weapon.Its not an ultimate style,and even a SEAL will tell you that they wouldnt consider going one on one with a hand to hand specialist-theyd shoot you and move on to complete the mission.Not a bad system though,and one that certain martial artists that Ive met,those with no real knowledge of street fighting,might benefit from.

09-26-2000, 06:35 PM
Black Jack, I know many people in many walks of life. I know some interesting people and the ones who are very, very good at H2H have studied so called "traditional" martial arts for years and years. If you can learn a system in only a couple of hours I really doubt that it'll do much for you or make any difference in a fight.

I like Vunak but the RAT system was a major disappointment.

I'm with Valraven on this one.

I used to be daga

09-26-2000, 06:54 PM
Okay,here are some facts I learned sometime ago about SCARS.

First, SCARS was never taught to actual SEALS, it was taught during the "Dark Ages" of martial arts to BUDS students who had made it pass hell week.

Second, SCARS is no longer used by the Navy period and there is some on going issue between the Navy and SCARS founder Patterson.

Third, the only systems I am aware of that has been used as a whole by the Navy for SEAL training is the LINE system from the Marine Corp and SCARS back in the eighties for BUDS training. Paul Vunak was hired by the Navy to train several teams for a number of years and does still train them off and on whether it is the RAT system or something else I really don't know for sure.

Finally, the actual H2H training for any SEAL team is completely up to there CO. He could decide to train them all in Karate if he wanted too. As it is most SEAL members train martial arts on there own, common ones that I have been told are Wing Chun, Jeet Kune Do, and Muay Thai, but it could be anything. BTW, lets all remember that in most cases the SEALs or Rangers (both of which I have family in) will not be fighting empty hands but will be using some form of modern weapon. Hell, my Uncle a army airborne ranger never learned any martial art besides some boxing basics and he saw combat. My other uncle a SEAL, took Kenpo, but that was a few years ago, and if he trains in anything else now I don't know what it is.-ED

P.S.-I brought a set of SCARS tapes sometime ago, and I wasn't really impressed. It looked like old school San Soo. Man, they were punching from the hip karate kid style!

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

Black Jack
09-27-2000, 12:07 AM
Before I start the meat of my post I would like to state that the marketing gimick on the SCARS system is pretty absurd and that is just to bring in the dollar bills as any one can see.

When ValRaven posts that systems or schools of thought like SCARS, SAFTA, CDT...etc are total frauds is a prety big statement and I would like to know where the...etc comes in.

Do you count such organizations as JKD, Krav Maga, Defendo and Scientific Fighting Congress of America to be counted among your fraud list.

I stated I did not vouch for SCARS or SAFTA as a functional system since I did not study the
system but I will vouch for all of the above as being more than functional in usage and training.

These hybrid do whatever needs to be done type schools are very effective in the real world as the work not in the mystic but under the assumption of modern street combat.

Hock Hochheim is an excellent instructor in modern hand to hand, stick, gunfighting and of course knife tactics. Defendo is another system with ties back to Willam Fairbairn and Eric Sykes that is very good and I believe was the only mass produced unarmed combat system in modern times for the WW11 allies or any other modern war.

Krav Maga is the h2h system for the Israeli Defense Forces and Police and is known for its real world training and outstanding gun defense techniques.

Sorry Rogue (I spelled it right this time) I will still stand by the "RAT" program as a very good set of simple tools to give people for self defense...maybe you were disappointed by wanting to see something that was not there, a new set of skills you never thought of before,I am sure a lot of martial artists you have a vast array of intricate (sp?) techniques would not be impressed with the video but the concepts and tools are very sound.

Remeber I never once stated that "traditional" martial arts can not give you a set of tools for self defense. Its the training and mindset of the man and not any generic style that will make the difference in a fight.


09-27-2000, 12:45 AM
I wasn't so disappointed in the tool set as in the marketing hype. I'm very turned off by people using the old "SEALS don't have time to train" line that many of these systems use to sell tapes.
Is the RAT system better than nothing? Sure, but you'd have to be a very marginal fighter to get a lot out of it. I do like the direction Vunak has been going in with trying to things simple, I just think he went too far.

I used to be daga

09-27-2000, 03:54 PM
Blackjack, I see where your comming from and let me explain.
It seems that people (especially in this country)have a deep seeded desire to make something they can call their own. Every one with a blackbelt and a 12 hour seminar in another style wants to be the founder of his own system.

SAFTA and the like are repackaged TMA. Nothing new
and not nearly as effective. As for JKD...

JKD is a concept. This term was coined by Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto to identify Bruce's martial philosophy. Most people who claim to train JKD today are nothing more then collectors of drills and techniques. More confused then enlightened.

When Guru Dan Inosanto wants to
"look at" a martial art, he seeks out the best instructor and submerges himself in the system.
He LEARNS the whole style. He MASTERS its techniques. Only at that point does he "Take what is useful and add what is specifically his own".
He is extraordinary.

Most students (certainly not all) under him, do not do this. These individuals are missing
the boat. But even these guys are lightyears beyond anything the SAFTA type guys can ever hope to produce.

By the way I started Kali/Jun Fan Gung Fu way back in 1988. It was this that eventually lead me to Shuai-jiao.
This is just my take.

Black Jack
09-28-2000, 06:07 AM
Hi Valraven

If this is your take on the situation than I respect that but I do not agree with the JKD aspect of your post in some degrees.

Yes JKD is a concept, at the core it is a personal way of expression...JKD transcends style and is a concept of self improvement for the individual to explore his limits and work beyond them.

It is the students responsibility to develop and work themselves towards an unlimited potential.

JKD is not a "way" that develops techniques in a iron clad and restricted set of guide rules. It is more of a process of stripping away what is there...to find or rediscover those things that have been lost by misguided manipulation or by everday life conditioning.

We train in all of the ranges of combat, with and without weapons, against one or multiple armed or unarmed opponents, in a variety of enviroments and against uncooperative attackers who are serious about there training.

As for the collectors of drills and techniques out there, well thats not how we train and the same can be way more than stated for the countless CMA, KMA and JMA gyms that collect and work static forms and outdated training methods that involve none or hardly any hard sparring, two person drills (shells of expression as I like to call them),mass attack situations, pragmatic armed weapon and unarmed defense work, psychological outlooks on combat and how the intergal relationship all of the ranges have together and how important it is to be able to move through each of them.

Remeber that is not to say that I think all of them have this problem but it is true that a major number of them in any given city or town do.

I have been through a few traditional CMA schools and out of those very traditional schools a few had some good things to offer and one was excellent in its goal at directing its students to be aggressive fighters in a street situation (this school did nothing else but train you how to maim and kill your attacker)but after four years it still did not fit my needs and only opened up more questions for me in the terms of better modern day training drills and practical weapon, stance and range flow work.

I have nothing against traditional CMA's by any means, I enjoy all of the arts traditional and hybrid as long as they have something to offer and very much enjoy talking about martial arts with any MA who wishes to do so.

Its the training issues that I have the problems with and those that focus on the mystic and not the fighting work that needs to be done to have a edge in a street situation.

I am glad that you have found a art that you enjoy, from what I have heard is that Shuai-jiao is a pretty brutal art that works on throwing techniques and grappling, I am sure that I could find a wealth of information in such a system to help increase my takedowns.

From a personal side I have a deep affection for the fighting sciences of the Filipino regions and I am curious to see how you felt with whatever you took for that arena.

Its all about self-perfection vrs. self peservation.

Set patterns, incapable of adapability of pliability, only offer a better cage, truth is outside all patterns- Quote

By the way did you ever work with Carrenza to express your self with the stick and knife (FMA shadowboxing)


09-29-2000, 04:50 AM
Don't take this the wrong way Black Jack, but your post is repeating the same stuff that every JKD guy, myself included, says.

"Yes JKD is a concept, at the core it is a personal way of expression...JKD transcends style and is a concept of self improvement for the individual to explore his limits and work beyond them."

You can call JKD a concept all you like but it is now an actual style. I've been a student at three JKD schools, one instructor was taught by Vunak himself, and they all taught the same exact thing. I have several tapes by JKD guys and they all contain pretty much the same material. I'll believe that JKD is a concept when I see a JKD instructor use either all Japanese, Chinese or Korean martial arts for their hand, stick and blade work instead of boxing, Muay Thai, Kali and Wing Chung.

"Set patterns, incapable of adapability of pliability, only offer a better cage, truth is outside all patterns"- Quote
I'm guessing that's a Bruce Lee quote. Bruce was a much better fighter than philosopher. Avoiding patterns can become a pattern. Nature is full of patterns, every oak leaf is different but I can still tell it's an oak leaf.

To summerize, I'm not downing JKD techniques or training as much as I'm downing the idea that JKD is somehow separate from traditional martial arts, conceptually on another level, it's not. No matter what Lee may have intended JKD to be it's now a style.

I used to be daga

Black Jack
09-29-2000, 07:23 AM
Whats up Rogue

I disagree.

I would never try to be insulted by someone's outlook even if I find that outlook to be wrong in my eyes.

My teacher was a student directly under Vunack and has training with Larry Harstell and past Navy Seal instructor Tom Cruise.

I do not consider it a style by any means though I understand how you can say that on the basic level that a number of the different JKD schools Orginal or Concepts have a lot of the same techniques in there school and of course the same concept fighting structure to draw from, such things as Progressive Indirect Attacks and so forth.

The simple truth is that a reason a number of the JKD students use the Filipino fighting arts, Wing Chun, Thai Boxing and others is because these arts have what tools we are looking for in certain ranges that are very efficent.

Why use KMA or JMA or CMA for stick and knife work when to be honest, the FMA arts are at the top of there game for that area of combat, I have never seen any art that can come even close to the comprehensive science that the FMA arts have made stick and knife fighting into, not to mention that they are not lacking in the hand to hand department either.

There are over 30 styles that have been incorporated into JKD concepts in some format throughout the course of its history, so to say that we only use a few arts is not the truth, some just have better tools than others and that is why you see them at the forefront more often in "some" schools.

If you found that a Korean martial art approach honestly worked better for you than a FMA or IMA approach in the weapon department than you are more than free to express yourself with what works for you but I dont think that you would find the KMA approach to be what you needed when you "realy" looked into what was a more weapon efficent combat science. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Concepts like PIA's can be with tools from any martial arts style, kali,silat,boxing,dumog,wing chun,bando or even tkd...its is a non-prejudiced tool that JKD uses to give its self a edge in a street fight.

It would have been nice to hear that you had a better experiance with your touch on JKD, I can sense that you do have something agaisnt JKD though, I do not know where this comes from as it does not seem that you spent a great deal of time with any JKD gym but I can tell you from my point of view is that it allows me to perform at a level that the other arts in themselves have
not given me.

I am not a JKD cult of personality guy, it allows me a freedom from my old restraints and I am on this board to represent what I do as we all are and any other schools of combat I have or still do work in or have knowledge of.

When it comes to defending or explaining my point of view on a MA it does not bother me as long as both sides have "OPEN" eyes on the topic and "THERE" experiances with that topic.

I am more than sure that you have had to defend your chosen expression of combat on more than a few occassions. TKD seems to be the most kicked around fighting style on the planet and though IMHO the title is well deserved, I stated on a few posts back that there is always the exception to the rule and it is the training and not any style that will win the fight.

It just seems kind of odd that a guy who works with one of the most attacked systems around would find a problem with another persons way of combat training.

As always I enjoy your posts


[This message was edited by Black Jack on 09-30-00 at 12:28 AM.]

09-30-2000, 05:46 PM
Black Jack,
I will say that one of the best things that I brought away from my JKD experience is the ability to evaluate the merits of a system. For example,
I think the Kali is one the finest arts ever.
I love Kali and still train it today.
However, it is this very lesson that I learned from JKD that makes me feel how I feel.
Most people today who think they live by the concepts that Bruce Lee and Guru Dan outlined are
not doing so at all. Most of the guys out there today just train whatever Dan trains.

When he started Silat under Pendekar Paul De Thours everyone jumped on the Silat bandwagon.

When Dan got into Bando, then Bando was the thing.

Then it was Shoot, then it was BJJ then it was...

Well you get the point. If some guy went to open a JKD school that had a cirriculum of Goju Ryu, Judo, Hung Gar and Fencing, people would call it a fraud. If there's no Inosanto lineage then how could it be real JKD (I've heard respected martial artists say this.)?
Hmmm...Sounds like a style to me.

The funny thing is, Guru Dan is the first guy to tell you to go find your own way. Very few people
do what he does.
Oh, they will practice the same systems, but they seek only to understand HIS way. Not their own.

I recently had a conversation with a very high ranking Jun Fan guy who was upset that someone traded a video of his seminar for a monkey kung fu
video. He felt that this was a joke and way beneath him.
But I'm sure if he was to find out that Dan was secretly practicing Monkey Kung Fu for the last six years it would all be good.

Don't get me wrong. The whole Bruce/Dan movement
is a great thing. Like BJJ, it made us look at how and why we train. But bilnd following is the very thing that started Bruce down this road in the first place.
This is my humble observation made with the utmost
respect for all the styles under the banner at the Inosanto Academy. It is because of these teachings
that I feel good about what I have to say.