The Search for Intelligent Life in WC [Archive]

Ernie

01-13-2004, 07:54 PM

e.c.
I'm missing something here...

yes you are :)

wing chun like all other ''real'' forms of combat are simply for killing . as hard as that may be for some to stomach

it is a skill not a art
skill can be tested
art is subjective

if you approach wing chun in any other way then a killing system , then you just turning into tai chi or akido , tkd and so on .

it's not ment for spiritual growth, getting in touch with your inner self ,
these things can be done with out combat skill

or else your local priest would be able to kick mad butt , and the pope oh my god he would be the reincarnation of yip man

the problem is in our society we are no longer allowed to culitivate '' killer instinct '' except for the actual killers out there

so this silly notion of self defense is born to make us feel better about our selves .

it's socialy accepted

a gun is for killing , when you use it
wing chun can kill when you use it
it's up to the person

wing chun in it's most watered down form is still a delivery system to put your fist through some ones face , to pummel another human being this can and though out time has killed people .

what don't you get

[edited in]
e.c.
Wong means wing chun is meant to go around kicking people's asses for no reason?

what does the weapon and reason have to do with one and other .
[ Wong means wing chun is meant to go around kicking people's asses ] the answer to this is yes

reason is based on the individual
a gun has no reason it just is , and when used it kills , it doesnt self defend .

Ultimatewingchun

01-13-2004, 08:00 PM

The more I look into the forms...especially (although not limited to) Bil Jee; and the more more I look into the Wooden Dummy Sets...the more I see Sword applications....

And sometimes - I see moves that have MORE sword application than empty hand application...

Now put that together with the "history" that I've been "taught" (by William Cheung) - and the history that some other wing chun organizations put forth...

That in fact wing chun was meant to be a revolutionary (and therefore military) response by the Hons to the oppression of the Manchus...

and since the Manchus were armed with weapons...

It seems to me that the main thrust of wing chun would naturally be to teach the revolutionaries to fight back with weapons (ie. - the Butterfly Swords).

Wingman

01-13-2004, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
... I'm again curious at this point if there are such things as "DNA" evidences in the WC forms that points clearly back to that prime cause of all our contentions. Can we lay to rest this year once for all at least this nagging question - what is the original meaning and purpose of WC once upon a time in China?

Regards,
PH

The original purpose of WC once upon a time in China is to defeat all existing styles using WC principles. WC does not give WC practitioners secret/deadly techniques to defeat the techniques of other styles. Instead, WC principles gives the WC practitioner guidelines on how to defeat his opponents.

The forms of WC (SLT, CK, BJ) are the DNA evidences that we are looking for. These forms don't look like it can be used for fighting, unlike the forms of Shaolin styles or katas of karate. This is because the WC forms teaches us principles; not specific techniques like other styles.

old jong

01-13-2004, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Wingman
This is because the WC forms teaches us principles; not specific techniques like other styles.

Good post but,let's not forget about the attributes that are cultivated by those forms. The strong and mobile stances.The heavy hands and relaxed arms.The elbow force.The short power.The body unity of Chum Kiu. All of this made alive with Chi Sau and various sparring drills.

IMHO,the system is more intelligent than most of it's practitioners!...

;)

Ultimatewingchun

01-13-2004, 08:58 PM

Wing Chun teaches us principles AND techniques...like just about every other martial art there is.

If you want to say that the principles and techniques are more involved and scientific than most other styles...that's fine.

But to deny the techniques AS CONSCIOUSLY PLANNED - to be part of the system...

IS TO IGNORE THE OBVIOUS.

yuanfen

01-13-2004, 10:31 PM

old jong sez:

IMHO,the system is more intelligent than most of it's practitioners

------------------------------------------
you can say that again...
---------------------------------------------
Ok,IMHO,the system is more intelligent than most of it's practitioners

Wingman

01-13-2004, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Wing Chun teaches us principles AND techniques...like just about every other martial art there is.
Agree. WC teaches us principles AND techniques.

If you want to say that the principles and techniques are more involved and scientific than most other styles...that's fine.
OK

But to deny the techniques AS CONSCIOUSLY PLANNED - to be part of the system...

IS TO IGNORE THE OBVIOUS.
Yes, techniques are part of the system. WC techniques are the tools; while WC principles are the guidelines on how to defeat the opponent. So the WC practitioner has the freedom to choose what appropriate tools he will use to defeat his opponent.

So how does he know which is the appropriate tool to use against a particular opponent in a given situation?

Answer: By using WC principles as his guide.

As an analogy, WC principles are the "plans"; WC techniques are the "tools" and YOU (generic you) are the "building materials" to build a house.

Gangsterfist

01-14-2004, 02:16 AM

I am into history. Its kinda like a hobby of mine. Since I started practicing kung fu, naturally, kung fu history became of more intrest to me. From what I have read and what I have been told here is what I can gather about the historical roots of WC. Granted, different lineages have different versions so what I say is not exact, its not 100% accurate, it is just what I have gathered. Your sifu may tell you different.

Back during the Qing dynasty there was a shaolin temple called siu lam gee (young forest temple). It was burned down by the manchu's. This was because apparently the emporer saw them do a demonstration and was superbly impressed with their kung fu skills. So he asked them to be warriors for him and train his soldiers. They said no because they were monks and led simple lives. This really ticked off the emporer. So he had the temple burned down. It is said that 5 elders (masters) escaped. One of them was named Ng mui. They all combined what was left of their kung fu and went seperate ways. Ng Mui went to southern china. Now before all this happend Ng had witnessed a snake and crane practioner spar. Inspired by the match she (my family believes Ng was actually a man disguised as a nun, I can't remember the reason for it however) started to combine both martial arts. Circling motions from the white crane, and straight line strikes from the snake. It is also theorized that WC has some mantis foot work and kicks in it. So she started combining all these techniques together and optimizing them for effeciency. When she was in souther China, she met a woman named Yim Wing Chun. Yim Wing Chun and her father ran a bean curd store (they were merchants of some sort). A local gangster bully guy tried to make Yim marry him by force. She did not love him and did not want to marry him. Later on she met up with Ng who decided to help her, and train her in this new style she had been developing. Legend says that WC was streamlined when Ng trained Yim. Since Yim had a small frame of a woman the kung fu was optimized for her size and developed to be effective with out being extremely strong. She then challenged the bully to a fight saying she was a martial arts master (after only training for 1 year with Ng) and said she would not marry a man who could not beat her in a fight. In the end she beat the crap out of the bully and married the man she really loved. Yim then taught her husband, Leung Bok-Chao. He named the style of kung fu after his wife. Later on Chao taught it to a red boat opera member named, Leung Lan-Kwai (but other legends say he was some type of merchant). This opera group consisted of many martial artists who trained daily in kung fu, acrobatics, etc etc. They just happen to be anti-manchu's. They were secretly rebelling against their government and wanted to restore the Ming dynasty. Thus the style was originally intended only for people who wanted to restore the Mings. It spread to many revolutionaries and was very effective for its simplicity and effectiveness. Only three forms made the style easy to learn. It could turn whole villiages into make decent warriors in 6 months training. It was passed down in secret for many years after that until Yip Man started teaching it openly in the 1950's.

I have left a lot of stuff out because its really too much to post. So basically you can say that WC is one of the last shaolin arts. It combines snake and crane boxing along with some mantis kicks. Of course like I said before this is all debateable and This is just from what I have read. There are many different versions of what I have posted.

To answer your question about how deadly wing chun is, well its very deadly. Its an assasins art. Designed to kill quickly and effectively. I also believe it is an art. I hope none of you ever have to kill anyone using your wing chun. In the world today there is really no place for a fighter. Even in the military you are more than likely just going to bomb your enemy and shoot them with guns than use your wing chun training. So I would say nowadays it is more intended for self defense and not for just killing. However, just remember you are learning something designed to kill. You should be taught that your mindset is not to kill. In my opinion if you have that mindset you are discracing the art.

This post may not be 100% accurate due to fact that there are tons of different versions of the history.

Wingman

01-14-2004, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
...To answer your question about how deadly wing chun is, well its very deadly. Its an assasins art. Designed to kill quickly and effectively. I also believe it is an art. I hope none of you ever have to kill anyone using your wing chun. In the world today there is really no place for a fighter. Even in the military you are more than likely just going to bomb your enemy and shoot them with guns than use your wing chun training. So I would say nowadays it is more intended for self defense and not for just killing. However, just remember you are learning something designed to kill. You should be taught that your mindset is not to kill. In my opinion if you have that mindset you are discracing the art.

Very good post. Although I don't agree with some of the historical accounts, I definitely agree with the second to the last paragraph.

My teacher constantly reminds us of a Buddhist proverb:

"Avoid rather than subdue. Subdue rather than hurt. Hurt rather than maim. Maim rather than kill. Kill only when justified. All life is precious and can never be replaced."

01-14-2004, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Wing Chun teaches us principles AND techniques...like just about every other martial art there is.

If you want to say that the principles and techniques are more involved and scientific than most other styles...that's fine.

But to deny the techniques AS CONSCIOUSLY PLANNED - to be part of the system...

I have a slightly different perspective on it. (But what's new, LOL.) I perceive Wing Chun is a set of tightly integrated principles and system of movement, packaged within a concise and minimal suite of sets and exercises for transmission through time and generations.

Only ostensibly is Wing Chun a series of techniques, the deeper purpose of which is to embody and illustrate its principles and nature of movement, and to serve as a learning aid.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

yuanfen

01-14-2004, 07:15 AM

KJ-
a good perspective to have in the midst of the noise, technique
without principles and the general macho that is often the case
in martial arts.
joy

Ultimatewingchun

01-14-2004, 07:37 AM

Techniques without Principles ?

Who said anything about that ?

old jong

01-14-2004, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by kj

Only ostensibly is Wing Chun a series of techniques, the deeper purpose of which is to embody and illustrate its principles and nature of movement, and to serve as a learning aid.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

This means that we (In Wing Chun),have the privilege to "create" our own personnal "fighting style",based on the principles and attributes of Wing Chun.Everybody can make use of his own forte as developped in forms, Chi Sau and various sparring drills.
This is rarely seen in martial arts (If any other M.A. propose this aspect at all!)

It could also be taught in a more "Karateish" way!!!...With predetermined moves against predetermined attacks,for a more rapid results style but ,IMO,the limits of this approach would be rapidly dealed with and would not bring the student very deep in the system. This approach should at best be considered as a drill section in a more complete Wing Chun practice session.

reneritchie

01-14-2004, 09:56 AM

How do things evolve in nature?

Did a group of 5 Elder Aliens land on Earth and create the human race? Possible, but not likely. Probably, we evolved from previous forms of life as they adapted to conditions.

Did a group of 5 Elder Shaolin meet in a Hall and create WCK? Possible, but not likely. Probably, WCK evolved from previous forms of TCMA as it adapted to conditions.

Were the Manchurians part of these conditions? Certainly, but the Manchurians were not cartoon serial villans with darker skin and maniacal laughter. They were, in actual fact, some of the better governors China ever saw, who helped the population greatly. Did they commit atrocities? Sure, but so did previous Han governments. Did the Chinese not want to overthrow 'foreign' government? Sure, but like most peoples at most times, what they really wanted was food, shelter, and a chance at life (which was often as threatened by Han bandits, landowners, and rebels as it was by Manchu or government types).

All the legends are fun and rich and glamorous and romantic, and like Bruce Lee have commerical appeal and help to inspire and motivate, but I think most of us are no longer so naive that we take them as anything more than symbol and allegory, and the same kind of archetypal story system that gave us Hercules and King Arthur and Hagen Daas (no, it ain't really German ;))

So, where else to look?

Since there has thusfar been presented *no* evidence of WCK prior to the red junk, we can look there. What types of MA were on the red junk? What type of people? What was their life like? What would they need?

Necessity leads development.

Why do we not find any WCK anywhere else than from the red junk? Different need lead to different development. But why do we find so many things that are similar? Similar ingrediants, different combination/distillation.

Once we understand WCK is not apart from nature, everything else falls into place.

reneritchie

01-14-2004, 10:05 AM

"there was a shaolin temple called siu lam gee"

There wasn't a Shaolin Temple called Siu Lam Gee, "Siu Lam" is just how you pronounce the Mandarin "Shao Lin" in Cantonese, and "Gee" is how you prounce "Si". The characters are the same, as is the meaning "Young Forest Temple", and refer to the monastary atop Song Shan, in Henan province.

If you're interested in history, I would recommend works by scholars, which respectfully, yet quickly, disprove most modern fables. There are some references here:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=229

Gangsterfist

01-14-2004, 10:08 AM

WC is full of techniques. Every movement in the forms has at least one or more applications. Not to mention the prinicpals of wing chun. I have studied several martial arts. WC has more technical jargin, and maxims that any other style I have personally taken.

If something comes in, invite it.
If something leaves, escort it out.
If loss of contact happens, rush in.

I just wanted to say that don't get the illusion that wing chun is not a killing art. It was designed that way. We, the artist, that practices it and passes it on from generation to generation puts their own perspective on it. Changing a few things here and there to improve the style to their body, strength, speed, size, etc etc. Which is why there are so many lineages of Wing Chun practitioners. It is the practitioner's mindset which makes WC what it is. Today, it looks to me more geared self defense. Back during the revolution it looked like a pure killing art. Biu jee had a saying that followed it once. It was said Bui Jee does not go outside of class. Meaning a few things. That is was not meant to be taught to outsiders, that it was not meant to be used outside of class, or that outside of class it should not be discussed. Of course any MA is viewed on what your perception of it is. That is why I know that I am responsible for the techniques used that I have learned in a fight situation. I don't want to go to jail for killing some guy at a bar who starts a fight with me because I smiled at his girlfriend. That is maybe why its not so much a killing art nowadays. Of course that all depends on the practitioner. I am sure there is someone out there that may want to kill the drunk guy who starts fights with people.

Gangsterfist

01-14-2004, 10:14 AM

That was just one version of the history I have read. Like I posted earlier there are so many many versions, and since chinese history was not written for so many years its really hard to prove what stories are true.

I could post many other versions of the history which I have read, but that would take up tons of space. I find it interesting so I read it. Just take into your mind that each version you read is probably not 100% true. I think that most of what I posted earlier was from, Complete Wing chun. Its a book about basic histories, techniques, and differences of wing chun lineages. That is also where I picked up the spellings.

Thanks for the link rene. It was very interesting. However, is there a place where everyone cites their sources? How do I know how much of it is reasearched and how much based off legend?

yuanfen

01-14-2004, 10:20 AM

Wing chun "history" involves for the most part reshuffling and reading tea leaves. Reverse fortune telling. Bits and pieces of insights and otherwise stories- new and old.

There wont even be a reasonable agreement on how many people really know wing chun knife usage today--- let alone what happened yesterday.

Phenix

01-14-2004, 10:23 AM

It is just an ordinary APPLE computer Garage Story.

Old Miu Soon did his experiment with different design.

Give his formular to Yee Kung.

Yee Kung Passed to his Daughter in Law. Living in Silicon Valey with the start up.

The Daughter in Law passed it out to those soap opera stars while in Bevely Hill with his wife's name. Similar to starting a company with wife's name. A romance story in LA.

Then, the people in the coorporation grow more and more.. Then they decide to use Standford university's, HP.,..... for makerting.

so, some call it STANDFORD apple. Some call it HP apple ok IPOT..... Some just call it Apple from Cupertino.

Those who trying to use the name of STANDFORD university to makert. advertise that is the best technology from Standford to kick IBMASS. ....Even thought they don't have a PHD diploma from Standford ......

APPLE is just an APPLE created in Cupertino's Garrage, ok Tofu Shop. Can't take the reality? OK Go to STandford University Take some pictures . Some go to Cupertino and Work for Apple to check out the garage.

And Some San Jose mecury news reporter Like Rene :D Running around from Standford , to Silicon Valey, To LA, To universal studio to write a complete APPLE.. start up story. :D

The inteligent in life? If you don't like what is reality, make a story and replace it. Attract fans who likes your story. and you will the the TRUTH. See, Some love APPLE Some Love IBM. That is just a creation of inteligent. :D

I must be drunk now. But I am now in reality sitting inside Palo Alto's Standford Library. :D Thus, I know you are not in Standford. hahhahahaha :D

reneritchie

01-14-2004, 10:56 AM

Gangsterfist - If they don't cite sources you personally can independantly investigate and confirm, treat it as legend and take it with a grain of salt.

Joy is correct

Hendrik is apples.

fa_jing

01-14-2004, 12:35 PM

I have thought along the lines of what UW was saying for a long time. You can't really train the blades "live," so the empty hand stuff helps you. We discussed this in an earlier thread.old thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16593)

PaulH

01-14-2004, 12:57 PM

My thanks to the informative inputs so far in this thread. I read them all with much interest, appreciation and humor. Most of the "evidences" or perhaps conjectures presented so far are rather external in their sources which bring me back to this old perenial thought, i.e., what if the early pioneers or founders decided to leave tantalizing clues, recognizable patterns, or specific trademark signatures inside the WC forms so that the later WC descendants can have a means to trace back to the actual ideas that sparked the WC revolution in the feudal Chinese religious and martial art landscape- a reasonable safeguard against too much deviations from its original intended purposes. This bring me back to forms as the only hard-cored evidences that we all share and have much in common with relative few minor deviations. Are we still clueless so far with regard to their historical message packed inside the bottle of WC forms? Is it a buddhist message of finding balance in an imbalanced world, or is it a Chinese renaissance of MA with the new central emphasis on man? The long way home ... It would be tragic in my view if we still yet don't know our history and what give birth to WC in the first place.

Regards,
PH

Da_Moose

01-14-2004, 01:06 PM

One Question for Sifu Parlati,

What good are the Butterfly Swords against someone using a Spear to simply poke and prod you to death from 6-7 feet away? Are they trained to hack up the spear as it enters their space, like a wood chipper?

One more question, how does one Chi Sao while holding two swords?

Just wondering,

Steve

Gangsterfist

01-14-2004, 01:19 PM

I think that the legends of WC are probably exaggerated. I have read some interesting and funny stories about WC. There was a famous fighter who fought in full contact matches and had over 100 confirmed wins. He was a WC practioner, and he basically only used 2 moves. Qwan sao and chain punch. I read another story about a WC practioner that would always run around their opponet until they were facing the opponet's exact center (thier torso). Apparently the never saw the concept of attacking the center from an angle. I found that one pretty funny. Apparently the world record for punchers/second is like 6 or 8. Its a wing chun practioner who holds the record. This of course is debatable, because what someone considers to be a punch someone else may not.

The legends made it through hundreds of years. One thing I like about practicing wing chun, is that I feel I am apart of one larger thing beyond just MA training. According to one stastic I read, the Yip Man lineage has over 1 million practioners world wide. Thats amazing how fast it has grown if you think about it. Wing Chun was not openly taught to just anyone until the 1950's.

What you gain from WC depends on what you take in from it, and what your sifu teaches you.

When you get right down to it. WC is something to do. I find it fun to practice and learn. If I am really bored, I do form work. Its something I can enjoy and spend free time on, kind of like a hobby I guess you could say.

reneritchie

01-14-2004, 01:43 PM

Steve, you can do it, you just need a lot of conditioning :)

Nick Forrer

01-14-2004, 01:46 PM

Quote:

'According to one stastic I read, the Yip Man lineage has over 1 million practioners world wide. Thats amazing how fast it has grown if you think about it. Wing Chun was not openly taught to just anyone until the 1950's.'

In my view this has negative as well as positive aspects. The rapid spread of 'commercialised' wing chun via underqualified, overmarketed teachers has meant that a lot of important technical detail has been lost and a 'blind leading the blind' type scenario now prevails in many places. Of course there will always be cowboys who turn 'simple things into deep mysteries' in order to fool innocent students who see the potential of Wing Chun but who dont know any better. However it is up to those who have been taught the good stuff to maintain high standards and not to prostitute their art for the sake of money, prestige or fame.

Sorry for the rant, just feeling particuarly self righteous today:p

Ill get off my soap box now.....

Phil Redmond

01-14-2004, 01:55 PM

Are you absolutely positively sure there was no Southern Shaolin Temple? I remember reading that the Chinese government found some ruins or some type of evidence of the Southern Shaolin. Were they wrong?

fa_jing

01-14-2004, 01:57 PM

Da_moose: I've seen the swords vs spear in articles and books, you try to control the spear with both swords as you slide up the pole, eating up the distance with advancing footwork until you chop their hands off. We have a couple double-arm shapes in Wing Chun that will help you to control the spear. I don't have significant weapons experience myself, however.

Phenix

01-14-2004, 03:16 PM

what if the early pioneers or founders decided to leave tantalizing clues, recognizable patterns, or specific trademark signatures inside the WC forms so that the later WC descendants can have a means to trace back to the actual ideas--------

you mean apple right?
that has been dig out all you can traced . but it is from cupertino, san jose not from stanford.

apple founders are no standford phd. but uc berkery master. :D

This bring me back to forms as the only hard-cored evidences that we all share and have much in common with relative few minor deviations. Are we still clueless so far with regard to their historical message packed inside the bottle of WC forms? ------

one can see the hardcore form of early apple computer model in Frys electronics sunnyvale. for free. all the clue is there. no standford parts thought. the message is garage, hard work, creativity :D

Is it a buddhist message of finding balance in an imbalanced world, or is it a Chinese renaissance of MA with the new central emphasis on man? The long way home ... It would be tragic in my view if we still yet don't know our history and what give birth to WC in the first place.---------

I told you apple is real clear it is from cupertinon garage. free in Frys electronics for brows. but, the standford apple will not like to accept it. the hp apple will not like to see it. ..... on and on....

balance? man heaven earth? hey man the ulimate is silence. the apple hit newton's head in silence...... hahahaha

apple is so tangible. but we want to call it gravitation force. standford apple...... what ever.
case has been solved many moon ago and now it progress much further---- chocolate and carmel color apple with sticky mp3 source and ice cool spiky Jing color can already be produce :D

for all those theory and idealism with lots of fans. none can reproduce apple because the is no standford or hp parts in the apple but National semiconductor's and fairchild parts.

even bad news is those standford apple is looking at astrology and theather department pioners in stanford. where else apple is build by EE major in cupertino. hahahaha what a wonderful world it is. whatva wonderful world...

"What A Wonderful World"

Don't know much about history
don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
don't know much about the CHINESE I took
But I do know that I love you
and I know that if you love me, too
what a wonderful world this would be

Don't know much about geography
don't know much trigonometry
Don't know much about algebra
don't know what a slide rule is for
But I did know that one and one is two
and if this one could be with you
what a wonderful world this would be

Now I don't claim to be an 'A' student
but I'm tryin' to be
For maybe be being an 'A' student from standford, baby
I can win your love for me
:D :D

PaulH

01-14-2004, 03:46 PM

Garage, hard work, creativity...
Garage, hard work, creativity...
Garage, hard work, creativity...

Follow the cupertino's road...
Follow, follow...

We are going to see the Apple
for it's a wonderful thing to do.

Allright then, let's hear it for the boys, Hendrik!
Here if you don't mind... Okay what is the WC ring that binds all the forms?

Regards,
PH

yuanfen

01-14-2004, 03:47 PM

Hendrik sez:

It would be tragic in my view if we still yet don't know our history and what give birth to WC in the first place.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree Hendrik- people who care will learn from any clear insight
from history or contemporary times. "Insight" is different from documentary history IMO.

Even in regular social and political history apart from really scholarly works buried in libraries and archives ---you have the two extremes...
the Goebbels in fascist sytems inventing convenient history
as propaganda or in democracies--- no real memory- the real cultural revolutions as new generations invent their memories
and histories..

Some years ago just for kicks-a colleague asked his students...who do you think is buried in Lenin's tomb in Moscow.. After painful silence- one brave soul answered "Lenin"? A second voice
responded- that couldnt be true- Yoko Ono(Mrs. Lennon) would
never agree to that!. Both may have been correct.

joy

anerlich

01-14-2004, 03:52 PM

"One Question for Sifu Parlati, "

I'll jump in here ... and you asked two questions. :D

"What good are the Butterfly Swords against someone using a Spear to simply poke and prod you to death from 6-7 feet away? Are they trained to hack up the spear as it enters their space, like a wood chipper? "

You would want to use the swords to divert the point and then get inside the spear's range PDQ. BTW in the hands of a competent practitioner the point of a regular WC pole can kill almost as easily as can a spear. William Cheung has a pole which reputedly was used to kill 6 people.

What good are they? Not as good as an Uzi 9mm perhaps, but better than empty hands.

The wood chipper thing might work with strong swords and a crap spear, but the use of sharp blades against wooden implements can be problematic. At the later end of his fighting career, Miyamoto Mushashi reputedly took to using wooden swords as his opponents' sharp blades would supposedly often sink into the wood and get caught. Some schools advocate only sharpening the last few inches of the butterfly sword blade near the point for the same reason.

"One more question, how does one Chi Sao while holding two swords?"

Answer: very carefully.

In TWC, there are "sticky poles" drills (please spare me the obvious puns, people) for use with the 6.5 point pole, but no sensitivity drill for the swords AFAIK. Phil R or Victor may know something I don't.

Gangsterfist

01-14-2004, 03:55 PM

Nick-

I agree that it can have negative effects when something is that widely spread. I can sit here and spit out tons of words trying to prove how true my lineage is to the originality of WCK. I am not here to talk about that though. I think there are some positive outlooks on having 1 million practitioners. I see it as I have 1 million kung fu brothers and sisters out there. Obviously if I were to hypothetically meet all of these people a good number of them I probably would not get a long with, or even be able to communicate with. Even with having 1 million practioner's in my lineage, there are still differences between my YM WCK school and some other persons YM WCK school. Another way to look at it is, once you learn a certain lineage for several years, try learning another one. Learn the differences and how they could be applied.

I once read that the only proof of Yim Wing Chun's existance was her birth/death certificate?? Can anyone verify this?

Other books/articles/essays I have read say that Ng had been developing the style of WC for a while before the temple got burned down. She had not named it, and taught it to Yim to help her beat up a bully. I love kung fu history, so many different versions to choose from.

Phenix

01-14-2004, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by PaulH

Allright then, let's hear it for the boys, Hendrik!
Here if you don't mind... Okay what is the WC ring that binds all the forms?

Regards,
PH

Ring? you mean CPU? that is zilog's z80

Phenix

01-14-2004, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik sez:

It would be tragic in my view if we still yet don't know our history and what give birth to WC in the first place.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
joy

Joy, that was not me but Pual. this days i am silence aboutbwck :D

PaulH

01-14-2004, 04:30 PM

Joy,

I don't blame you because as Paul? said "in silence there is no you(Hendrik) or me (Paul)! " Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-14-2004, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Joy,

I don't blame you because as Paul? said "in silence there is no you(Hendrik) or me (Paul)! " Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

see, now you learn about silence.

PaulH

01-14-2004, 04:54 PM

Hendrik,

Let get back to the topic. What is the answer to my first post? I don't mind hearing a general answer at all. Just curious.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-14-2004, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Let get back to the topic. What is the answer to my first post? I don't mind hearing a general answer at all. Just curious.

Regards,
PH

Which one? Apple? Silence? Intel's CPU? WingChun?

Gangsterfist

01-14-2004, 06:26 PM

I would say the one technique that binds all WC together - the chain punch.

Just my opinion.

PaulH

01-14-2004, 06:52 PM

Hendrik,

Why don't you tell us what you know so far on Apple of WC and CPU of WC? What are so special about them in those days? Where can we see them in the forms, etc?

Phenix

01-14-2004, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Why don't you tell us what you know so far on Apple of WC and CPU of WC? What are so special about them in those days? Where can we see them in the forms, etc?

Pual,

After going through all kuenkuits of wing chun in this world from different family.

From the clamping of pillow, which is not a joke, to energy issuing which most have never dream. no, there is no ground graping, ....
the philosophy is rather free up that hand then grap.

Nothing is special at all for the creation. no flamboyan story. no background like last samurai but it does have very deep rooted back ground ....

until that ordinary being accepted and embrace. there is no life in wck. indeed, the Gracie know how to take one down but the wing chuner doesnt even know their expertise----- how to punch.

All those kiu sau can't stop a Gracie from take one down cant even take an impact.....so there goes the so called kiu sau technics . but those kiu sau.... is not suppose to be the core of wck anyway. the energy manupulation is.

why? using those muscle way of firing a short is slow and it has some charisteristics of benifiting the grapper. see, it is similar to a 'point' target shooting and before one can refiled the bullets the grapper has already stick in close. the grapper just have to avoid to take the first short. there is no chance for second fire dont kidding ourself.

but most of us dont know how to do the soft inch power anymore. blind by all those hand technics which is the surface..... and no use when the others commit to rush in.

Dont belive me, take a poll how many so called grand master taking class with Gracie? and how many of Gracie grand master take WCK? how many will use graping technics to go against own wck friends in sparing? how many will use wck in grapper sparing?

he who trust his art is the one will master the art. ofcorse not to be stupid that not to understand what others is doing. but to be able to master one's art so that even the enermy salute. similar to the last samurai. eventhough there is machine guns, the enermy has to pay great price to win. not to mention no human is machine gun. there certainly will be ground war, but if your missile is soo strong. then what?

if you dont even know how to make missile anymore as the ancestors. then, you dont have missile technology as claim.

going around propaganda to your own people about how great the secrete this and that it isnt going to do anygood in the war isnt it? i rather leave wck if i cover wck with myth and legend but can't take a counter when other strike. need to get back to reality. what is wck?

hahaha my drunken thought.
it might be tooo much for some people...
i just finished watching a 36hours vcd about Taiping, Gen Chen Kuofan, Qing.... gen Godorn and White on 1862 china. forget about those legend. Qing build bombs and cannon in 1860's.

Gangsterfist

01-14-2004, 07:34 PM

Phenix,

good post. I agree. Is WCK about exlosive short range energy release and constantly attacking your opponet? Sure it can be. If you train that way it can be a reality. I think this grappling fad got big because not too many styles really trained against it. Is WCK the answer to everything. No, but it could be, or perhaps there is a WCK answer there, but you might have to dwell on it first.

Its like every now and then you will come across a student who resists during training drills. They will flex, tense, and fight against attack and chinna drills. This might pollute one's mind thinking that technique is not real world applicable if they can't even apply it during simple drills in class. That is a misconception by many who fall to the blade of the elitest. Have faith in your style. Do not execute a technique unless you intend on fully executing it. This reminds me of Book of the 5 Rings, by Miyamoto Mushashi.

If you haven't read it you should Phenix. Its a pretty short read, and its all about how if you half ass do your techniques you get half ass results to really really dumb it down.

Phenix

01-14-2004, 07:38 PM

Gangsterfist ,

thanks . i will read it again.

anerlich

01-14-2004, 08:41 PM

Dont belive me, take a poll ... how many will use graping technics to go against own wck friends in sparing? how many will use wck in grapper sparing?

I'm not sure I could answer those questions. Not sure many Gracies or WC Grandmasters could either.

I think "Grapper Sparing" was a character in a comic I read once.

I think I've used graping techniques against my wck friends in sparing. And no, I wasn't getting them drunk and then letting them survive ...

And I use wck principles in ground graping on occasion too.

Anrich

anerlich

01-14-2004, 08:43 PM

Phenix said

"this days i am silence aboutbwck "

That silence is mightly noisy, bro.

Phenix

01-14-2004, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
Phenix said

"this days i am silence aboutbwck "

That silence is mightly noisy, bro.

There is silence within the Thunder Roar. Bro. hahahaha

Phenix

01-14-2004, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

I'm not sure I could answer those questions. Not sure many Gracies or WC Grandmasters could either.

I think "Grapper Sparing" was a character in a comic I read once.

I think I've used graping techniques against my wck friends in sparing. And no, I wasn't getting them drunk and then letting them survive ...

And I use wck principles in ground graping on occasion too.

Anrich

Good for you. Why not? Bro

Ultimatewingchun

01-14-2004, 09:19 PM

Anerlich and fa_jing:

Both of you said all that needed to be said in response to Da_moose...

Especially liked the part about doing chi sao "very carefully" while holding two swords...

Don't know of any sensitivity drills for the Butterfly Swords.

Great stuff about why Mushashi went to the wooden sword toward the end of his career.

Gangsterfist

01-15-2004, 12:00 AM

I thought the legend went that musashi won his last duel he ever fought with a piece of drift wood he turned into a make shift sword??

Or perhaps I have just watched too many samurai movies...

blooming lotus

01-15-2004, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
[B]I am into history. Its kinda like a hobby of mine. Since I started practicing kung fu, naturally, kung fu history became of more intrest to me. From what I have read and what I have been told here is what I can gather about the historical roots of WC. Granted, different lineages have different versions so what I say is not exact, its not 100% accurate, it is just what I have gathered. Your sifu may tell you different.

(my family believes Ng was actually a man disguised as a nun, I can't remember the reason for it however) B]

I'm not sure if I'm ready to accept that, but I have heard people express similar beliefs.....does anyone have thing more about this?

Gangsterfist

01-15-2004, 12:22 AM

I will ask my sifu tomorrow in class where exactly the information about Ng really being a man comes from.

Phenix

01-15-2004, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I will ask my sifu tomorrow in class where exactly the information about Ng really being a man comes from.

In the old writing I have seen, it was said Ng mui completed her study under Shao Lin Chan monk master so and so. It doesnt said she live in Shao Lin......ect.

In the old time, it is not suprise that monks go to different temple in different place of china to live there for a few years and go to other place. And the older monk will teach there while he is there. Only senior monk can do these, because there is buddhism rule that it is against the precepts that if junior monk travel alone...ect.

So, it is not suprise that if this monk teach a lay female or a nun. In additional, Shao Lin can be Shao Lin from Emei or Fujian or Shong San.....

Now a days, people just lump everything together and make interpretation as one likes it.
Thus, sometimes, people left out details and didn't take thing as it is. Then, one will speculate oh there is no female live in shaolin of Shong San...... and fans will go for that .... Such as people talk about Chan is this or that.... well, for Chan practitioners and even for J Krisnamurti who is believe to be enlightement in this century. silence is the important one. Thought is the important one. other things is secondary...

But then what to argue if there is fans to belive and support? Solving a wrong problem is not going to get too far before one sees it is a no through street sign. shaving the head and wear a rev robe or writing a dosen of books doesnt mean they know it. That is reality.

Inteligent exist for some only after one bang one's head hundreds of time to the wall and realized that is a no throught street. We all are Just human everyone has to find out their own screw up and learn from there I think.

On other issue,

Just some thought. And Paul might not like I ask him to clamping pillow again. :D eventhought there is lots of inteligent to clamping pillow. That is to cultivate something call resultant force which will be able for one to bounce away attacker...... belive it or not. But clamping bottle or can can't get this resultant force. it is rigid too hard, with those Shao Lin wide horse stance cant get it too...

Wing Chun is not the same with TaiTzu type of art of Shao Lin which some believe. Don't believe me? Go look at how people generate power.

the masculine TaiTzu type generate the power via the low and big rooted stance; they expand their stance , tensing up, crush in fast with speed to accerelation to an excited state to generate the power.

In comparison, the feminin WingChun type generate the power, according to the old scripture, is similar to releasing an arrow from the cross bow.
it is about letting go to return to its inertial state. which is a reverse of other art to accerelate to an excited state with full body tensing and speed up.

it was said in WCK kuin kuit, -----
other walks on the bow I go with the string of the bow.
releasing the string to its inertial state the arrow shoot out it should be effortless. just release.

I don't believe in those art which got the power via tensing accelearting to an excited state is the original art of wing chun; which issuing energy is about let it return to the inertial state.
Two opposite philosophy, it can't be from same origin at all.

Dont get me wrong, nothing good or bad, I am just compare two different type of issuing to identify two identity. Wing Chun is not TaiTzu or Hung Gar type of Shao Lin art. Can't be due to a very different way of releasing energy. it is similar to one cannot claim an anti clockwise running clock is the original of a clockwise running clock.

Since Paul asked for INTELIGENT hahahaha. I give you some of my Drunken Inteligent. :D believe me on your own risk.
BTW, the apple drop to Newton's head is a return to the innertial state. Thus, Apple is Wing Chun . Droping downward is natural. just release it from the tree. :D

yuanfen

01-15-2004, 05:49 AM

On Mushashi-
I was not there... but..
Mushashi seemed to understand that surprise is a major element in a fight-throwing the opponents composure off. Was Ali's game too- in his "talking" to his opponents. The wooden sword is a surprise-disturbing the opponents attention.
The mind is the major component in action.
He stood fairly frontally to his opponent and used both hands and preferred two swords. Even in his storied last battle-where he had the sword that he fashioned from an oar--- when he leaped towards his opponent he brought out the second short sword from his middle as well.
Mind trapping is good wing chun as well.

On Ng Mui stories-
Female/male
There always is revisionism. Symbolically female makes sense.
The revision is based on the idea that there were no female nuns
at Shaolin. Actually---female nuns are part of gender and race and nationality free egalitarian ideals of buddhism. They can live separately-Sakyamuni was initially concerned that women would
distract the monk discipline. His pre enlightment wife convinced him on egalitarian grounds and she helped form the first order.
Ng Mui's setting was not Songsan anyway.
Further, male ego and macho is not unknown in the Chinese world even among some sifus- could be an unconscious element in the revisionism. Witness the past put downs of wing chun as a girl's style. Nothing wrong witha girl's style-the symbolism can be instructive
in macho contexts. Similarly-I have always liked the evolution of the male Avalokiteswara of compassion to Guanin. And for me-
the female Kali(Tara) is an apt heroine of Indian martial arts.She has a garland of severed heads-all male.... the symbolic slaughter of dominance and the male ego.
Myths are instructive.
Sifus have warts too. Ip man did teach some women- but he still "reportedly" thought that women and children can be distractions...
relatives too, and dock workers who have to use a lot of muscular strength in their work.

joy

PaulH

01-15-2004, 11:30 AM

Hendrik,

Very interesting read! Thank you for your time. Speaking of which I apologize for being so late to reply to your posts as grappling with mountains of work is more than I can stand during this financial reporting statement period. Your posts raise more questions for me also regarding to the lost? transmission of the short Jing power. Did the founders leave clues of this in the forms and can we still find vestiges of this sort of instructions today?

Also, one brief comment. It has been observed in Wong's time that athletic students can generally do more advanced WC works than the "norms". So Wong, being a sceptic of "Chi" power at least in the traditional Chinese MA sense, paid a good deal more attention to his athletic and fighting-prone students as they are the ones that will hit the hard pavements for sure more often. Thus he preferred a more natural and scientific way to "make up" this short "jing" that you discussed in this" modern WC" period. It has been noted also from many accounts that one good hit from Wong or from some of his well-known fighter students knocked down quite a few well-known "internal" masters in the past. So did we really lose much of WC's preprequisites of its characteristic soft power? BTW, I noted first hand that Gary's power is very soft but scarily powerful. So again did we really lose it or has found even a better way to develop it in this modern time?

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-15-2004, 12:11 PM

Pual,

Your posts raise more questions for me also regarding to the lost? transmission of the short Jing power. Did the founders leave clues of this in the forms and can we still find vestiges of this sort of instructions today? ----- P

Sure it is there preserve by some older generation.
But it will be gone soon if the the Shaolin propaganda become main stream. One of the kuen kuit summary I have heard from LJ line is using weak to defeat strong... so it is the at LJ even Ip Man's time....

Also, one brief comment. It has been observed in Wong's time that athletic students can generally do more advanced WC works than the "norms". ........So again did we really lose it or has found even a better way to develop it in this modern time?------P

The question is what is internal? what is chi power? what is chi power can do and what is chi power can not do ? what is that heat flow sensation can do? what is that heat sensation cannot do? how is internal's paradigm is like in the domain of physical, mind, breathing, and chi flow? what is soft short repel jing? does boxers have it? the thai have it? or only those Taiji only have it? there are tons of things to be understand in detail before one can synthesize internal.

there is tons of propaganda but then perhaps the majority of the people doesnt know what is what. Most so called "internal "people have no clue about it. those relax, soft..... is leading to a totall dis-intergration. certainly it is good for health.... but is that the soft jing? how to issue them? some will say it comes after years of practice like a magic. some will talk lots of circle, time, space.... but none of this type can take or disolve a boxer's punch, a thai pushkick, a kyokushin, or a gracie rush in take down. so is that internal art? secret teaching? Certainly, for fighting, any thai or boxer can take this type of "internal" down easy. they dont even know how to strike with a punch dynamically. meaning, one can look great standing in the stance claiming such and such throwing chain punch.... but will not be able to fire second punch while others with althelic muscle training rush in. they might even not know how to take a rush in no matter how many decade they practice.

But then, when it comes to white crane wing chun of fujien, chen taiji, sun lu-dang, wang xiang-zai, ...ect... and thier decendents..... there is a different story. those internal people are tough fighters for modern art from thai, to wck, to bjj, ....ect. those people have the real things.

As i post before, i belive, even i dont know it but read from the old writing, if those soft jing lost, then wck has gone. when the striker cant strike effortlessly with grace in any direction and any distance, what does it have ? nothing. stories of anti qing is great. top shaolin monk is great. chan is great...emei is great..the original... is great....all those chinese term is great, but all cannot replace a reality, of can an art perform?

how is wck's strike going to have any advantage at all? if one has to tensing and accelerating when the grapper has rush in with a body monentum? physics is physics, it takes time to accelerate, thus one will have delay to reach to the power,,,,
the bottom line is disregard of what is your chi sau or kiu sau..... if all based on muscular then the better physixal build and train win.

As for Wong, my opionion is that old Ip with narrow stance and not muscula beat him right? . that is a reality of wck. Old Ip doesnt has to go learn boxing to beat Wong. Plain WCK.

when Kernal's kenturky fried chicken become a fast food chain. there is no different to a frezing tv dinner chicken from 7-11. is that still Kernal's chicken? not to mention now mcdonarld claiming chicken nuget is the original of kenturky friend chicken. what a wonderful world. this is evolution with logical inteligent in the name of modern scientific way. How to develop a Kernal's chicken when everyone think chicken nugget is the original of kenturky fried chiken?

just some thoughts. and i might be wrong. hahaha

Gangsterfist

01-15-2004, 02:06 PM

Speaking of WCK legends, I once heard somewhere there are a few techniques missing from the original dummy form. Some masters thought they were too brutal and decided not to pass them down. This was when WCK was first being taught publically. Apparently there was a kick that yip man used to shatter a wooden dummy?

Anyone hear of any "lost techniques" in wing chun?

anerlich

01-15-2004, 02:47 PM

I thought the legend went that musashi won his last duel he ever fought with a piece of drift wood he turned into a make shift sword??

Yes, that's how the story goes. But he purportedly was using other makeshift swords, as well as proper bokken, well before this ultimate contest.

Have you read the novel, "Miyamoto Musashi" by Eiji Yoshikawa?(sp) Not sure how historically accurate it is, but it is an excellent read. It goes into all that and more.

I've heard he was beaten a couple of times by a guy with a jo (short staff) - not in the novel - but, like WC history, it's impossible to tell where legend ends and history begins.

Jim Roselando

01-15-2004, 03:55 PM

Hello Hendrik!

One of the kuen kuit summary I have heard from LJ line is using weak to defeat strong... so it is the at LJ even Ip Man's time....

Leung Jan also stated:

Your Power Must Be Internal

&

Use Quiet To Overcome The Active

Are we obeying his words today??? Do we have the Internal qualities of the other so-called Internal arts seeing how most of us (including me) classify WC as Internal? You are hitting on a good topic!

One of the cross over Kuit that we all see in Internal Kung Fu is;

Stillness In Movement

If our WC art has this then we should all have the same "qualities" but follow a different platform/path/approach to arrive. I love our approach and boxing principles but shouldn't we have a similar end result? How is Soft Jing used?

Great discussion!

Gotta run,

dfl

01-15-2004, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Phenix

Ring? you mean CPU? that is zilog's z80

But the CPU that powered the original Apple (as well as Apple ][ and others) is the 6502.

Phenix

01-15-2004, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by dfl

But the CPU that powered the original Apple (as well as Apple ][ and others) is the 6502.

You are right. Dan.

you must have gone to frys today!

anerlich

01-15-2004, 10:15 PM

"I once heard somewhere there are a few techniques missing from the original dummy form. Some masters thought they were too brutal and decided not to pass them down. This was when WCK was first being taught publically. Apparently there was a kick that yip man used to shatter a wooden dummy?"

In my kwoon, there are some sets, outside of the "normal" 108 movements, which are not taught until after instructor level is reached. Some of these are recombinations of movements in other sets, but others have unique moves. But nothing that a suitably intelligent student could not work out for him/herself if they are prepared to look and go beyond what they have been spoonfed.

Not really that big a deal - the "secret" forms are actually done in other lineages, I've even seen them described on other lineages' web pages.

"Secret deadly techniques" are of questionable value in an age of guns and WMD's (though not in Iraq, apparently ;) ). The real secrets are what they always were, lots of hard training.

Seeing as everyone seems to like computer analogies, the fate of "secret" techniques are like encryption algorithms that rely on "security through obscurity" - the strongest algorithms are those which are put out, fully explained in the pulbic domain, and every cryptographic genius in the world is invited to try and break them - if an algorithm stands up to a few years of this sort of abuse, you KNOW it's good.

IMO BJJ has progressed and continued to evolve because its practitioners are seen in contests and on video all the time, and their opponents of every shape,size, and attribute have opportunities to analyse their games in minute detail, and practise countermeasures. Under this pressure, the techniques that work DEFINITELY work, and there is the possibility of continuous improvement.

IMO again, to have an arsenal of secret techniques that are too deadly or too secret to try out on anybody is to place your faith in something you've never tested ... you become one of those "indoor" schools that "Musashi counselled us against in Go Rin No Sho (sp).

As for shattering wooden dummies, there are dummies and there are dummies. My Sifu and one of my sihings have done lots of dummy shopping after breaking a number which weren't quite up to par.

I'd naturally be very impressed with anyone that could shatter a 10-12 inch diameter solid teak log with a single kick.

Personally, I can't go the notion of historical and esoteric secrets being hidden in the forms, and kept from all but the chosen few. I think the entertainment of such notions insults intelligence of the teachers and students of the past. For me, the forms are WYSIWYG.

IMO, WC is a wondrous lily which requres no mysteries or esoterica to gild it.

PaulH

01-16-2004, 12:32 AM

I saw some excellent posts somewhat related to this thread on another forum. Hard works and creativity seem to be the main theme. It may not be your cup of tea, but a few sips of this strong brew may be the very thing to invigorate our old agitated bones. Thank again Anerlich and everyone for sharing your opinions.

Ernie, the trouble maker as usual:
http://www.voy.com/105775/606.html
David Peterson coming out swinging left and right!
http://www.voy.com/105775/607.html

Regards,
PH

P.S. I'm always looking out for a good WC comedy and this is too good to pass!

http://www.voy.com/105775/611.html

Phenix

01-16-2004, 10:49 AM

Pual,

JUST MY DRUNKEN OPINION, AND I CAN BE DEAD WRONG!

It is not pretty at all if you serious want to get into this Inteligent Life topic.

Why?

Because majority of people (including me) are violating the rule of WCK.

See,

WCK has two parts to be balance. Otherwise it will not work.

Part 1, the preparation or conditioning.
Part 2, The striking (fighting) technics.

Part 1 is the "body" of the art such as a person's education foundation
Part 2 is the "application " of the art such as his professional.

Now, there is a big general problem in the past of Chinese martial art Tradition.
one purposely do not taught these both in a "complete" form to the student for controlling purpose. Only a certain Close relation people such as Son or relative or student will learn the "full " two parts. Even this case, often, each part will not be transfer fully, again that is about control it is about fear of losing control. In addition, lots of time, those who got a "full" view of the art is not as capable then the master. So, even them see a "full' view thier achievement is limited. They wont be able to analyse to synthesis to grow. But will only stuck with what the Sifu's socalled " secret teaching". Which is a DEAD deal because world is growing. Like it or not.

As for a normal student, Generally, one will only taught a little surface "body" ----- doing SETS drill. and lead the student in to this Body training wasting time in Set after sets. But will not teach the key elements in the "body". Afraid that they got too powerfull or the progress speed of the student to be too fast or realized something is not complete if the student is smart.

So, to propagate the idea of control--- The Sifu endose the rumos of if one study this set it will be great. if one study this secret set, it is advance...... and don't teach others about this set I taught you....... So, the mysterious myth and secrete and original..... same old same old stuffs going on and on. But, since the teacher doesnt really teach the keys but only showing the shape. Then, one can imagine after one generation, everyone will have thier own PROPER SECRET teaching way of doing the sets. But those all are useless. Why? because the Principle behind the set was never being reveal. Sure, the Sifu will occationally come and fix a student's set or move. But why? what is the reason? No one will know and forsure exactly. So, again the myth and the mysterious go on and on. It is similar to a magic where there is no connection between two points but "trust me and my formula" type of teaching. That is a kiss of death. The student will never have the INTELIGENT to analyse a new coming up situation. The mind is lock in history and sifu said and grand master said.....

In addition, about the energy issuing? forget about it, one will teach about the shape but not the jing. give the gun but not the bullets. This cause another problem. Some Jing cannot be understood via logic until one has certain level of achievements. So, that stuck everything. it is a dead lock because when the sifu going to die, even if he reveal the key, none is capable to understood what the heck is it.

Now, When there is some fight involve, the sifu will teach a few things good enough to beat the others. again, not revealing all the principle behind it. But. "trust me this is the formula" train this hard everyday and when you see him just do this to him...... So, again, it is surface and very limited stuffs. It is about Control again. So, one will also reveal some so called Kuin Kuit fragment where one can translate anyway one wants to. And that is great because the Sifu doesn't want the others to know what the heck reason behind the Kuit anyway. Thus, lots of time the student due to don't understand the Key of the "body" or the platform will go out of the wack to relate crazy stuffs and do a total wild application. that is great because that means that application technic will not be support by everyday's "body" conditioning.

Now, with the above problems. until the "full" view is understood. It is not going to yield anything great. Certainly, some might import this or that to make the system more "complete" but under the hood it is a bunch of NON - OEM parts which some is totally out of the spec. When the "Car" is expected to run 40 miles per hour that is fine. When the car is expected to run 120 miles per hour. Nothing will work.

Thus, you can see todays, why lots and lots of Chinese MA can't fight Thai or Grapper...... It can't because those Car fill with NON-OEM parts which some is out of spec. Some couldnt even climb the hill because the transmission is not fitting well.

Without understand the root cause, lots of people trying to reform. ect. and some have great intention but some just going for makerting. and the world continous to turn. until some followers get really frustrated and say the heck with it. I rather learn other Style.

As for the General stereo type of CMA tradition, certainly it is just a stereo type and there are some great teacher such Wang Xiang Chai wrote all it down without preserverance.

Every bad has good and every good has bad.
The good things about the tradition is that it cuts down lots of killing karma because not all students know what is the best weapon to kill. and the treat off is the art die after 3 or 4 generation.

I think I will follow the trandition way because I think it is good to cut Killing karma down. less fighting. serious. ofcause if there is a way to reveal everything but still have a peace and no killing karma is the best. But, seem not likely.

Just some wacky thought. In a wild friday. Stock is rising. that is great. Job market will be better !

PaulH

01-16-2004, 12:33 PM

Hendrik,

When one lives long enough, there is really nothing new. I see now an interesting development of searching for the universal elements of all good combat. Some say the answer lie in uderstanding of space, time, and energy; Others, info such as techniques, tactics, and training methodology and a good dose of experience too. Perhaps once upon a time there is indeed a glorious WC horizon, but today it was gone for good unless someone comes out from the hitherto shrouded mystery and obscure past to publicly and openly demonstrate what made WC so great in the begone days. I don't see it happening yet but maybe you know it better. I respect fully your traditional viewpoint having a penchant for nostagia of olden times and its lost horizons. But until it comes back for sure today, the search for the universal elements in combat and their incorporation into our rapidly expanding body of combat knowledge which started out vigorously by Bruce Lee in my view the most viable option today in an evolving world as you put it.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-16-2004, 12:50 PM

One thing for sure,

when WCK cannot issue power easily on any of the three gate --- wrist, elbow, shoulder gates..

Things are fragmented.

The rest of things... be it .... time, energy,,,, tactic... all colapses.... and individual dependable, disregard of how philosophically or technically it may grows.

No bullets disregard of what type of modification or evol of gun......

Certainly, one can adopt boxing, Muay thai, BJJ.... Shaolin.... but are those accord to the sets of WCK? One can make equavalent, this set is equal with SLT .... so on. But, does one even understand SLT to make the equavalent? know how to repeat a set is not equal to understand the set.

PaulH

01-16-2004, 01:09 PM

Interesting, Hendrik! I for one would love to see these WC bullets. How can I see them for real?

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-16-2004, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Interesting, Hendrik! I for one would love to see these WC bullets. How can I see them for real?

Regards,
PH

Go through those 1970 wing chun movies. There are lots of discription to get the idea acrosss..... even there are some caligraphy there one still can "see".

Look at the movies again and see how far today's WCK idea looks different .... Those are the ideas when lots of old masters still alive. Thus, they have to make the movie close to what those master's view. otherwise, people will complain to the master, are you kidding this is WCK? hahahaha or Hung Gar?

canglong

01-16-2004, 01:30 PM

Phenix,
You sound bitter as if no one would light the blue lattern for you.;)

First you need to have room in your cup to receive that which you would like to taste. If you dismiss that which you don't understand how can you ever understand that which you don't know. Taste all the tea before you choose or you may regret your choice. The science of weng/wing chun lives if you seek in earnest she will find you if you ignore her arrival you only have yourself to blame.

Phenix

01-16-2004, 01:31 PM

There are only a few paths in finding inteligent:
Nothing good or bad. But it always happen. happen in karate, in CMA... in everywhere.....

ONe don't have to be a rocket scientist but just answer the question honestly within one's heart. there lay the answer.

A, Totally discard the sets because the set has contribute nothing directly related to the real fight. It is a waste of time to practice.

B, Modified the sets to what one think it supposed to be after studying other art be it Hung Gar, BJJ, or CLF...taiji... . disregard of if one understand the design of the set or not.

But, due to one is using the Hung Gar .... CLF or BJJ technics in real fight one interpreted the Sets move such that it bring some benifit in real life while practicing them.

C, Understand the Sets and see the relation of the practice to the real fight. So that the set and reality is in syncronized. and grow.

D, Drag on the seperation between sets and real life fighting. continous to import other technics in. Drag on the sets thinking somedays some magic will happen to bring insight from the sets.

E, can't take it anymore, leave and learn different style which one think make sense and have no seperation between practice and real fight application.

F, Importing techics from other style in secretly while trying to do mapping equavalent different sets to other style with one's interpretation and one's title, with an objective of later will abandon this style slowly. and claiming that style is the origin of this style.

Phenix

01-16-2004, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by canglong
Phenix,
You sound bitter as if no one would light the blue lattern for you.;)

First you need to have room in your cup to receive that which you would like to taste.

If you dismiss that which you don't understand how can you ever understand that which you don't know.

Taste all the tea before you choose or you may regret your choice.

The science of weng/wing chun lives if you seek in earnest she will find you if you ignore her arrival you only have yourself to blame.

Is the guru's last name Jimmy Swagat? :D

Sorry, I am a Vampire before even Jimmy Swagat was born.

canglong

01-16-2004, 01:36 PM

G. Find a good teacher

Phenix

01-16-2004, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by canglong
G. Find a good teacher

Sure. But watch out for Jim Jones or Song Young Moon.

otherwise you need to find a Deprogrammer.

canglong

01-16-2004, 01:43 PM

Are you attached to the guru or Jimmy Swaggart.

Ernie

01-16-2004, 01:45 PM

and so the search for the magic key continues ,
for some it is in the past ,
for others it's only only held by a select few in the present
and so the search goes on
perhaps the key is with you all aong every step of the way
perhaps the jouney seaching for the key is the key
perhaps you are the key but that would be to simple :)
better to search out side of yourself and put the resonsibility in anothers hands

oh my god !
you guys are rubbing off on me back to the comfort of killing

PaulH

01-16-2004, 01:49 PM

While I love a good fight, there is really no need to start one and the same one at that year after year...We all have enough problems today. Canglong, if you have something constructive to say, I'm all ear! Thanks.

Phenix

01-16-2004, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
and so the search for the magic key continues ,
for some it is in the past ,
for others it's only only held by a select few in the present
and so the search goes on
perhaps the key is with you all aong every step of the way
perhaps the jouney seaching for the key is the key
perhaps you are the key but that would be to simple :)
better to search out side of yourself and put the resonsibility in anothers hands

oh my god !
you guys are rubbing off on me back to the comfort of killing

Haliloya!

canglong

01-16-2004, 01:51 PM

Phenix,

if you have something constructive to say, I'm all ear! Thanks.

Phenix

01-16-2004, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
While I love a good fight, there is really no need to start one and the same one at that year after year...We all have enough problems today. Canglong, if you have something constructive to say, I'm all ear! Thanks.

Pual,

I agree with you.

OK back to the energy issuing from the 3 gates and the signature from the 70's wingchun movies.

Canglong do you want to tell us how to issue engergy from the 3 gates?

Ernie

01-16-2004, 01:59 PM

Haliloya!

oommm eye jab ooohhhmm head butt ooohhhmmm actual personal fighting experience oooohhmmm individual reponsibility for personal growth oooooohhhhhmmmm stop talking start testing ooohhmmm it only matters if it works today oooohhhmmm if it's really all that hard to learn better off with boxing oooooohhhhhhmmmmmm
ooooppps sorry you caught me meditating :)

paul's right your both smart guys wiht an obvious passion for what you do , much more alike then oppisite , different views keep the gene pool healthy if there was only one right way we would feed on ourselves and die

now back to my usual rude erratic , put up or shut up self
ooohhhmmm knee to groin ooooohhmmm biting oooohhhmmm stay in shape ooohhhmmm traditional stuff sucks oooohhhmm :D

PaulH

01-16-2004, 03:48 PM

Hendrik,

It's rare to have a wealth of info regarding old KF practices today. Just want to let you know that your labor is not in vain despite the persistence of Ernie's meddlings! Ha! Ha! Have a great weekend everyone!

Regards,
PH

Ernie

01-16-2004, 03:55 PM

i was offering myself up as the sacrificial lamb so all sides could unite against a common foe , thus ending the squable:D

Phenix

01-16-2004, 04:47 PM

Hahahaha Paul, Ernie,

Nothing special. lots of religious people always in the door way pushing religion. that is usual.

As for Wing Chun, I take GM Ip's side on what he said about Wing Chun is and what Wing Chun is not. That simple.

Back to the issuing power, I am waiting for Canglong to enlightent us how to deriver the Soft Jing power via the three gates ( Define as in old time : Wrist , elbow, and shoulder)

Ernie

01-16-2004, 04:58 PM

Soft Jing power via the three gates ( Define as in old time : Wrist , elbow, and shoulder)

i have been taught that there are six links for power in the body
but you can not use more then any three at one time or you will stall your own energy , the must be room for the contraction and a path of alighnment for release .
also any one point can be the mental focal point and become the site for the gun ,
noe just the fist/wrist/palm and so on

PaulH

01-16-2004, 05:27 PM

Actually three out of six. Mostly for balance and stability as you need them in aiming the gun before the firing.

Phenix

01-16-2004, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
Soft Jing power via the three gates ( Define as in old time : Wrist , elbow, and shoulder)

i have been taught that there are six links for power in the body
but you can not use more then any three at one time or you will stall your own energy , the must be room for the contraction and a path of alighnment for release .
also any one point can be the mental focal point and become the site for the gun ,
noe just the fist/wrist/palm and so on

Ernie,

Great !
Care to share more? explaining the six links...ect?

Canglong,

Believe it or not I understand your stand point and your believe.

Wing and Weng meet only when Weng Chun means White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian. Certainly you dont have to take this. Thus,I dont see there is a need to bring this up. You and I or any GM cannot change factual history because no matter how great a person's kungfu is one cannot go back and change the past. So, leave that alone instead of wasting energy.

why dont you join this soft Jing discussion, take a short. Right or wrong who is perfect.

Ernie

01-16-2004, 05:58 PM

Ernie,

Great !
Care to share more? explaining the six links...ect?

hendrik,
how could i know such things , if i don't follow chan or care for history:D

it's about relaxation and contraction like a sign wave but the mind creates the sharp spike the trigger and focal point , the joints of the body are like a multi link chain creating the path of transmission
combined with sensitivity '' the feeling '' alows you create or find a weakness in your opponent , this weakness has many definitions , mental pause position, transition and so on , but the key is to deliver this ''power'' into his weakness ,
thus making something small seem much more the it is

just having the ''power '' is not enough .
the ferarri must have wheels

Nick Forrer

01-16-2004, 07:35 PM

The six points as i understand it are WRIST ELBOW SHOULDER HIP KNEE AND FOOT. Only when all six are correctly aligned and synchronised can Jing be fully released.

Any other takers?

Ernie

01-16-2004, 08:34 PM

hendrik [ or any one else ]

now that we have established the motor [ the mind ] and the tranmission [ body ]

how do we cultivate this mysterious soft jing [ god i hate using these old terms ]

lets just call it focused power

the simplest way i have seen is in the weapons training , and even more so in the filipino system

there is something about having to co ordinate the body motion and mind into the end of a weapon in the split second you have to execute an action

it can also be cultivated with the dragon pole

Phenix

01-16-2004, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
hendrik [ or any one else ]

[ god i hate using these old terms ]

Honest, serious, soft jing is not a proper term. :D. the proper term is Rou ( Yau in cantonese , ju in japanese as ju do) Jing. Why is that? there is reason behind it.

Rou Jing is a type of power which is characterized "within soft carry hard" .

Kang jing (kong in cantonese, go in japanese as in gojuryu )
is a type of power which is "within hard carry the soft".

WCK is supposely keen in this to type of power type. those are suppose to be the bread and butter of old old wcners....in Grandfather Yip's Generation.

Geng Ging or geng jing is catagorized as Rou.

and lik and jing are different.
All these above are different with the pure "mascula/bone support driving" power which is hard and rigid by nature which is called li (lik in cantonese)

Align of joins and body structure only guarentee the structure and force travering path is smooth,
mind focusing only guarentee the derivering,
those doesnt say anything about Jing.
( God, that is old analysis, i hate it but that is it, by book. :D)

Hehehe. no bsing, there are lots of old things in details recorded from those old people.

Ernie

01-16-2004, 10:24 PM

patato pa ta to

talk about the culivating the power or powers as you put it

Ng Mui

01-17-2004, 06:09 AM

Wing Chun was made so a woman can defend against man with out being bigger or stronger.
Now adays many men enjoy the style because it allows smaller clever men to defeat larger, not so clever, men.
Now adays older men enjoy the style because they can be effective against younger men.
Still it was originally made for a woman, by a woman.

KPM

01-17-2004, 06:22 AM

I think that use of the Kwa (Kua) is key in what Hendrik is talking about. The Kwa is more than just the hip joints. In my understanding, "Kwa" refers to the pelvis as a whole. So using the Kwa as a source of power involves:

1. Control of your center of gravity, which lies very near to the lower tantien.

2. Use of the hip and sacroiliac joints as well as the junction of the spine with the pelvis.

3. Using #1 and #2 to move the pelvis in multiple directions: rotation, tilt, vertical translation, and horizontal translation.

IMHO, those WCK lineages that simply tilt the pelvis forward to lock the upper and lower body into one unit are limiting this kind of power. I think this is what makes some look so "robotic" when they do their WCK. Power generation should be like "cracking a whip." But the whip should be visualized as being a very short whip with a short arc. Everything is relaxed and then "pops" at the point of impact. But the arc of the whip starts well before it reaches the arms.

Keith

Phenix

01-17-2004, 10:26 AM

Kpm,

Great! Close!

Ultimatewingchun

01-17-2004, 06:08 PM

Ernie wrote:

"There must be room for the contraction and a path of alignment for release...any one point can be the mental focal point and become the site for the gun."

Beautiful stuff...

PaulH

01-18-2004, 01:11 AM

There are at least one good reason why WC requires a high degree of relaxation. You can not make a wave energy on stiff wood or dummy. According to Paulie's quantum leaps of WC logics, the goal is to increase the capacity range of extreme relaxation and extreme tension to upgrade one's potential energy of such wave power.

Mind can help to focus on release point, but it also needs to act as a trigger of the impulse wave (whipping hand if you prefer). Tradition holds that such impulse is best lead by yi or intention which direct the mysterious substance called qi that scientist still have not been able to verify of late due to their understandably limited budget. Have you bounce your ball today?

Anyway just a tiny fraction of the moment before the bubble burst, the whole body, mind, and spirit become unified locking themselves up, transforming itself into Jimmy Neutron (aka the Fox Cartoon Network's expression of pure mind unmovable in terrified stillness). For lack of a better description, I also recommend you to check out that Brazilian electrified greenish furball in endless Street Fighters video games. Well, bouncing guys and gals away is never more simple, direct, and efficient! The deep lesson here is it is never too late to be the bouncer that you can be. Ha! Ha!

KPM

01-18-2004, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
There are at least one good reason why WC requires a high degree of relaxation. You can not make a wave energy on stiff wood or dummy.

---I think I may disagree with the duumy part. :-) Here's one drill I practice. Stand in front of the dummy in YGKYM and both palms flat against the trunk above the upper arms with fingers pointing upwards and everything relaxed. Now strike the dummy with the body WITHOUT lifting the palms off of the dummy. Don't cheat! This is not the 1 inch palm strike. This is the zero inch palm strike! Hit with the whole body, not the just the arms.....like cracking a whip! Now place the palms between the upper and the middle arms with fingers pointing outward and practice the same thing. The sensation should be that the dummy is actually struck, not just shoved. The power originates in the hips, not the shoulders.

Keith

Phenix

01-18-2004, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by KPM

---I think I may disagree with the duumy part. :-) Here's one drill I practice. Stand in front of the dummy in YGKYM and both palms flat against the ...........The sensation should be that the dummy is actually struck, not just shoved. The power originates in the hips, not the shoulders.

Keith

This type of practice is great, but after the energy issued, one's own body might also be also shattered. Thus, when that happen, one needs to use lots of power on the root to keep one's balance back.
And often it is one short deal..... thus, difficult to use in sparing.....

Just Some thought.

Ernie

01-18-2004, 08:54 AM

hendrik
This type of practice is great, but after the energy issued, one's own body might also be also shattered. Thus, when that happen, one needs to use lots of power on the root to keep one's balance back.
[ the dummy moves you do not , type of thing ]

And often it is one short deal..... thus, difficult to use in sparing.....
[ not so difficult if you understan position first then power , by way of sensitiviy you ''seal '' the position locking 2 points or using 1 line .
once position is secure for the second or less you need you apply power ,not just fire over commited but often in 2 pulses one finds the surface the other penetrates ] but i don't know maybe it's all just killing:D

Savi

01-18-2004, 11:24 AM

My two cents...

The intelligent life in WC consists of the people who do not bash other parties within in the Wing Chun Community in order to make themselves feel better.

The intelligent life in WC consists of the people who promote growth in the WC Comm whilst maintaining good communication with those who promote the same.

The intelligent life in WC consists of the people who are willing to keep attackers at bay, and maintain peace.

The intelligent life in WC consists of the people who have devoted their lives in believing what they are doing to be righteous, and have mutual respect for those who have mutual respect for others.

The intelligent life in WC consists of the people who are here to have fun with their kung fu and share their ideas.

The intelligent life in WC consists of the people who train their WC in order to better understand themselves.

Anybody else?

old jong

01-18-2004, 11:30 AM

.

Done! ;)

Phenix

01-18-2004, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
E

[ not so difficult if you understan position first then power ,

by way of sensitiviy you ''seal '' the position locking 2 points or using 1 line .

once position is secure for the second or less you need you apply power ,not just fire over commited

but often in 2 pulses one finds the surface the other penetrates ] but i don't know maybe it's all just killing:D

Ernie,

Thanks

That is still too complicated ..... not spontaneous enough , requred 5Ghz CPU speed, IMHo.

position changes every split of second Gracie charge in. ... even worse when he is closing in.

Ernie

01-18-2004, 11:38 AM

hendrick,
not complicated or difficult at all if you know how to stall the human cpu , infect with a virus
;)

Phenix

01-18-2004, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Savi
My two cents...

Anybody else?

Savi,

Join us on the pure technical discussion in plain english, everyday life terms, and no formula to solve technical issues.

So, you have a chance to present your view that other might accept them or decided to learn from you because you are well beyond others.

Or

later you might find out what others have been doing is beyond what you have dream about. And you will switch to thier way of doing things.

Can go either way.

Phenix

01-18-2004, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
hendrick,
not complicated or difficult at all if you know how to stall the human cpu , infect with a virus
;)

Ernie,

You know there is a top secret why lots of so-called Internal art people cannot fight?

Because they keep on thinking and thinking they can use yee for this and that while the Grapper rush in closer and closer... and they dont know how to make up thier mind.

sure, a higher speed CPU compare with what Grapper will help. them to make up thier mind. But the programing sucks if one has always rely on higher speed CPU to win.

Not to mention, the Grapper doesnt need a CPU but just a good motor.

Hey the printer's internal motor is just sucks. :D

:D

Ernie

01-18-2004, 02:06 PM

hendrik,
[One can start with two WCK concept-----1, seal off and 2, shut down. ]

ha ha now were have i heard that before
:D

i understand were you are going , but who cares what internal artist do , a simple groin slap and they pike up like little girls just like anybody else

cpu overload

now the door is open . do we finish with short explosive power , or smash a chair over his head ,
who cares , does it really matter

see the most powerful blow means nothing with out a great delivery system

now how to have a modern adaptive delivery system , that would be of more use , then the study of the old buggy pulled by the horse

but this would shake things up to much :D

better to dig up corpses and clone them to ask what they think
that way no need to think for ourselves :eek:

Phenix

01-18-2004, 02:20 PM

Ernie,

ha ha now were have i heard that before
:D ---------------

WCK is WCK. Those are two universal WCK's intelligent kuin Kuit from the Red Boat.

Thus, one never starts with this Sau or that Kiu..... or any formula.....

now the door is open . do we finish with short explosive power , or smash a chair over his head ,
who cares , does it really matter --------------

When Grapper slip in, When the Kicker rush in..... The is no chair there is no space for that sinking elbow to center line power. ... those sinking elbow to the center line to generate power is going to work against one. Traping one is a dead lock.

Then what? kiss him? spit at him, and telling him one got aids?

Next time when a grandmaster of Grapper or .... grappers one... Tell him one got aids or Hypetitis B and C... That is better then Short explosive power. That is intelligent isn't it?

see the most powerful blow means nothing with out a great delivery system
now how to have a modern adaptive delivery system , that would be of more use , then the study of the old buggy pulled by the horse
but this would shake things up to much ------------

Well, Wingchun spell. R. E. F.O.R.M and pheonix never die but getting better and better. every time it burned to ash and when spring come. it is january. So what do you expect? :D

spfstr

01-18-2004, 02:52 PM

Phenix,

i have been reading through these posts and i can't tell if you practice Wing Chun or even like it. you seem to be putting it down in half of your posts and then trying to say something good about it in another post.

where do you stand?

WCK is WCK. Those are two universal WCK's intelligent kuin Kuit from the Red Boat.

Thus, one never starts with this Sau or that Kiu..... or any formula.....

isn't a kuin kiut a type of formula??

Phenix

01-18-2004, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by spfstr
Phenix,

1, i have been reading through these posts and i can't tell if you practice Wing Chun or even like it. you seem to be putting it down in half of your posts and then trying to say something good about it in another post.
where do you stand?

2, isn't a kuin kiut a type of formula??

Good questions.

dont you think it is amazing how everyone think different and will intepreting things differently?

anerlich

01-18-2004, 07:01 PM

Phenix used this accidental neologism:

Hypetitis

What an excellent word to describe lots of what's been said and written about WC of late.

Hendrik, maybe consider putting that "L" back in grappLer? Unless a "grapper" is something different.

Phenix

01-18-2004, 11:08 PM

ok. Lets do the Grappler. :D

PaulH

01-19-2004, 01:19 AM

Savi,

While I don't beleive in Karma, but if it is true then some HFY members must had wronged Hendrik terribly in his past life or vice versa! So it's no surprise to see the abundant evils that you folks continue to do to each other on various forums. I'm not going to argue who is right and wrong ,but let hope for WC sakes that peace is possible though it may take a very long way between intelligent howbeit a little feisty and misshapen people on earth! Thanks for your fine post!

Regards,
PH

Ernie

01-19-2004, 08:39 AM

hendrick
When Grapper slip in, When the Kicker rush in..... The is no chair there is no space for that sinking elbow to center line power. ... those sinking elbow to the center line to generate power is going to work against one. Traping one is a dead lock.

Then what? kiss him? spit at him, and telling him one got aids?

that's easy , spend time there, practice with good grapplers and all will become clear grasshopper

or

pretend it will never happen and spend time sitting infront of the mirrior doing forms

sensitivity is our guide , but it needs to be experienced , and educated along all points of contact , standing sitting , rolling on the ground , nothing to fear if you have experience

back to power

there are two basic types stable / rooted short explosive
or mobile [ power by motion ] longer range
problem is they are often mixed up

Phenix

01-19-2004, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by Ernie

back to power

there are two basic types stable / rooted short explosive
or mobile [ power by motion ] longer range
problem is they are often mixed up

Ernie, how do you defind mobile long range power? how to get the power?

Ernie

01-19-2004, 09:50 AM

body in motion
mass in motion focused into one point , then released

for wing chun '' like all beginings '' take one step forward :D

late for work , email me if you want a detailed description , this is an important seed in the system i train in , but no need for politics and trying to make linages stand out , to much of that going on already

Savi

01-19-2004, 11:08 AM

Hendrik, please don't invite me into a discussion of which you have already cryptically insulted two Shaolin families prior to your invite to me.
Originally posted by Phenix
Savi,

Join us on the pure technical discussion in plain english, everyday life terms, and no formula to solve technical issues.

So, you have a chance to present your view that other might accept them or decided to learn from you because you are well beyond others.

Or

later you might find out what others have been doing is beyond what you have dream about. And you will switch to thier way of doing things.

Can go either way. Hendrik, you are trying to use the immediate discussion as a diversion away from what you already know you have done - and you are trying to avoid any attention to it. To be specific, let me bring them to light:

Originally posted by Phenix
"Those who trying to use the name of STANDFORD university to makert. advertise that is the best technology from Standford to kick IBMASS. ....Even thought they don't have a PHD diploma from Standford ......"Who on earth could you be talking about here? I wonder Hendrik..... :rolleyes:.
Originally posted by Phenix
"The inteligent in life? If you don't like what is reality, make a story and replace it. Attract fans who likes your story. and you will the the TRUTH. See, Some love APPLE Some Love IBM. That is just a creation of inteligent....."Again, I wonder what you are REALLY saying here. Come on Hendrik, knowing your history of trash talking against my family, I find this comment to be very undiplomatic.
Originally posted by Phenix
"one can see the hardcore form of early apple computer model in Frys electronics sunnyvale. for free. all the clue is there. no standford parts thought......"Oh I see, your Wing Chun is all encompassing of all Wing Chun families which must mean your Wing Chun leads to the source of it all. Close-minded a bit, eh? Or just full of yourself? You are beginning to remind me of movie character; Grima Wormtongue.
Originally posted by Phenix
"balance? man heaven earth? hey man the ulimate is silence. the apple hit newton's head in silence...... hahahaha"Such immaturity here. Not a very educated conclusion here either Hendrik.
Originally posted by Phenix
"apple is so tangible. but we want to call it gravitation force. standford apple...... what ever......" I see another veiled "marketing" shot at other parties for their efforts in Wing Chun research. Propaganda Hendrik? Or just unaccepting of other realities out there?
Originally posted by Phenix
"After going through all kuenkuits of wing chun in this world from different family."THAT WAS REALLY FUNNY! I had no idea you had access to the HFY family Kuen Kuit. You must be a true and profound expert on all Wing Chun lineages then! I fell out of my chair when I read that.
Originally posted by Phenix
"All those kiu sau can't stop a Gracie from take one down cant even take an impact.....so there goes the so called kiu sau technics . but those kiu sau.... is not suppose to be the core of wck anyway. the energy manupulation is."And I'm SURE you are speaking from experience and your years of expertise in the use of HFY & Chi Sim Kiu Sau..... HA!!! Your lack of experience and understanding of HFY and Chi Sim Kiu Sau invalidate anything you said in the above quote. Again, an uneducated conclusion on your part.

You know Hendrik, I could go on and on about the other 12 veiled insults and attacks you have written on this thread after the last one I quoted, but really isn't worth my time. Others may not be keen to such actions, but you are not as clever as you think. Such comments like:
Originally posted by Phenix
Join us on the pure technical discussion in plain english, everyday life terms, and no formula to solve technical issues. ...are pure BS to me. This shows your unacceptance of other realites out there. "He, join in on the Wing Chun discussion here, but don't talk about XYZ."

Pure English? You don't know anything that which you reject. A true practitioner of martial combat understands things through the body, mind and spirit. You have demonstrated less than three.

Hopefully Sandman now sees your agenda here and puts a stop to it. You make no friends by talking bad about others. I am not about to tell you who you are (as you freely do to others) - or even what I think about you, but I will make a point about the things you are doing, and I, along with many others, have been disrespected about the above things you have said regardless if they were your "drunken opinion". You are not considerate, respectful nor sensitive of other WC families when speaking as such.

Phenix

01-19-2004, 11:09 AM

Ernie,

Thanks and appreciated.

OMMM who else wil contribute in this subject?

Phenix

01-19-2004, 11:30 AM

Savi,

I post you a peace post and what your return is lots of accusations...

Certainly,
It is your mind and your thought and it is a free speech country.
You can interpleted as you like.

Some said Chang SanFeng of Taiji exist. Some said Taiji has not much to do with Chang San Feng. Some said Dong Hai Chuan made up his story...... stories goes on .. is this insulting Taiji or Bah Gua? or is it a facts that these practice exist and open to be discuss?

BTW, no one has a patent or copy right on the term Kiu Sau. It is a general term.

"THAT WAS REALLY FUNNY! I had no idea you had access to the HFY family Kuen Kuit. You must be a true and profound expert on all Wing Chun lineages then! I fell out of my chair when I read that." --Savi

Lots of people pay for the book Mastering Kungfu.
So Are you saying whatever HFY family kuen kuit in it is a totally wrong?

If you are interested not in technical then we have nothing to talk about. Your open minded and my open minded are different.

Gangsterfist

01-19-2004, 11:42 AM

How new is Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun? I don't see any reference in my complete wing chun book published in 1998.

Could someone give me a link to a website that has accurate info on HFY WCK?

Thanks-
Gfist.

Savi

01-19-2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
It is your mind and your thought and it is a free speech country. You can interpleted as you like. The fact that you didn't deny my interpretation of what you said - or even the fact that I didn't tell you precisely what my interpretation is - may very well prove what I thought you were trying to hide to be correct.
Originally posted by Phenix
I pay for the book Mastering Kungfu.
So Are you saying whatever HFY family kuen kuit in it is a totally wrong? No, I'm saying there is quite a lot more to HFY. The book is not a documentation of the entire HFY system either. Simply reading a Kuen Kuit cannot give you the complete understanding of the Kuen Kuit. Being that HFY is based upon learning its information not only through oral transmission and written documentation, but by living and experiencing it. That is where the understanding comes from - not just reading. Looking through the window of somebody's house does not make you an expert on what they know or do.

Savi

01-19-2004, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
How new is Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun? I don't see any reference in my complete wing chun book published in 1998.

Could someone give me a link to a website that has accurate info on HFY WCK?

Thanks-
Gfist. Academics page at www.mengsofaz.com
Reference library at www.vtmuseum.org

PaulH

01-19-2004, 12:05 PM

Savi and Hendrik,

It appears that peace is not within our lifetime between you two gentlemen. My appeal is let not mention politics and WC religions at forum dinner table for now. There are more interesting things to talk about. Thanks.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-19-2004, 12:16 PM

Pual,

If you read my post. There is about energy not politics or religions. Thing get changes, side track...due to different reason for the past 100 years. Like it or not that is a part of reality we cant change. Even in my own lineage family there are His Story being made... ect. See we live in a Human world. Not an idealistic domain. I like to joke at this types of things; Because we all hypocrate one way or other, this way or that way; Because we have to face and live life and not living in a control idealistic domain. Inteligent is about realizing that we are not living in an idealistic domain.

Now, the energy of WCK is a serious issue. that is what we discuss in the past few posts.
as for peace, I cannot force others to be peace ; or forcing your intepretation of I am in peace or not, since it is your thought. I only can live with peace myself disregard of how others inteprete things. I will not sold my soul due to others manupulative or treathend of no peace. See, peace is about one's own self.
You can disagree with me, I can disagree with you but disagreement doesnt mean not peace?

Technical people disagree all the time.

So, lets get back to power and energy. That is the topic going on. The rest is energy draining without result.

PaulH

01-19-2004, 12:30 PM

Hendrik,

You and Savi do whatever you feel are right by all means. As you two for the present are like water and fire, I am just suggesting a total disengagement to avoid more billows of smoke from more future contacts.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-19-2004, 12:32 PM

Paul,

Again, I don't feel water and fire. I just present my case. So, if you don't inteprate me that will be appreciated.

The discussion is about WCK not about me. right?
And I am not interested to discuss about me. That is not intelligent at all. But full of Imbalance 3rd Chakra power struggle.

so, I stop my post of discussion here.

Ernie

01-19-2004, 12:39 PM

o.k. ladies
no one cares who desighned the prom dress first , you both look pretty , so stop crying :o

no lets get back to something that might actualy mean something

hendrck [ or anyone ]
point blank no mumbo jumbo , what do you feel are the best ways to culitivate and express short and long power

PaulH

01-19-2004, 12:43 PM

Hendrik,

Done! I won't interpret you then. Let get back to energy topics.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-19-2004, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

hendrck [ or anyone ]
point blank no mumbo jumbo , what do you feel are the best ways to culitivate and express short and long power

For me, you might not like this.

WCK has no Short or long power ,
but short and medium bridge and Kang and Rou Jing.
and Kang Jing is Sharp and Rou is bouncy.

Both Jing has to be understood and cultivate in SLT.
Again, it is not Shao Lin type of Jing. That will not work well due to acceleration and excited issue as I mention in the other post.

Phenix

01-19-2004, 12:47 PM

Pual,

Great. Thanks.

Ernie

01-19-2004, 12:47 PM

WCK has no Short or long power ,
but short and long bridge and Kang and Rou Jing.
and Kang Jing is Sharp and Rou is bouncy.

i agree , but how do you cultivate it , talking is easy doing is something else and teaching is another thing all together

Phenix

01-19-2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

i agree , but how do you cultivate it , talking is easy doing is something else and teaching is another thing all together

That's the reason I am searching for it too! :D
I will teach you when I found it!

PaulH

01-19-2004, 12:58 PM

Wait! I thought that you already cultivate this in pillow hugging practice. Am I missing somethings?

Ernie

01-19-2004, 01:00 PM

i asked gary this weekend , he has this skill , very powerful yet soft , he described and showed me the differences between gaing ging and fa jing
he explained how it is taught , but this is better for us to get together and show , not online it would just be words ,
as always i open my door

if you wish to come in and share good if not we are still o.k.:D

Phenix

01-19-2004, 01:20 PM

Hey Ernie,

Great! Thanks.

Paul,

So You know the pillow Jing!

PaulH

01-19-2004, 01:28 PM

Well I would say that I can see the possibility for achieving the mentioned skills above from the feelings and what little experience that I got so far from your pillow method. It makes sense in the above context.

Regards,
PH

duende

01-19-2004, 01:38 PM

Ernie and Paul,

Surely you can see all the poorly disguised pointless attacks on Savi's and mine's lineages once again by the ever vacation bound, but never actually leaving Hendrik.

Consider yourselves lucky that you do not have a self-professed imbalanced individual who, foolishly enough, thinks he can only better himself by trying to distort the art and concepts of your WC.

Intelligent life anywhere, not just WC... should by definition, be rid itself of such nonsense.

Savi

01-19-2004, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

You and Savi do whatever you feel are right by all means. As you two for the present are like water and fire, I am just suggesting a total disengagement to avoid more billows of smoke from more future contacts.

Regards,
PH Paul,
I understand you to be a gentleman, as is demonstrated by your conduct on this forum. You make a concerted effort to appreciate and understand others as best you can. For that, I appreciate your hospitality.

My apologies, but my intentions are not to highjack this thread. However, I will not stand for veiled insults guised in the form of humor and ignorance from any person speaking from an illusion of authority regarding information on my family. Thus, it is the reason for my involvement in this thread - for those that have been disrespected by him.

I shall consider your suggestion when I see no further insults, veiled or not.

Ernie

01-19-2004, 02:05 PM

duende

you know i'm an honest person and a striaght shooter so here goes ,
i could care less about who started what and all the he said she said stuff is completly a waste of life ,
i't in know way effects me who or were wing chun started from , since i am a modernest and feel that there is no way in the world any of those old style fighters or methods would last 5 seconds in against the level of athelete and fighter that exisit today , IMO
but that being said i still try and keep an open mind though sometimes knee jerk reactions may not seem that way, wing chun is a very interesting puzzle

i have no desire to join any group or have anyone come over to my side of the fence
i only point to my teachers site when he ask me to since he is not on a computer , or if there is some video stuff i would like others to give oppinions on
i just want to share information pertaining to attibute development and skill development ,
i share as much as i can , and my own experiences to be used or digarded as the reader see's fit
in hopes that others will do the same

if either you guys or hendrick step to me on that level , man it's all good
but when all the family c rap comes in , it just causes me to not hear a word either of you are saying , though you both might be giving great information and that is just sad

last year i got sucjed into it , cus i read the book and felt a little insulted , which probably blinded me to any good information inside , perhaps this year i will borrow it again and skip the first few chapters '' history stuff '' and look at the rest who know's

but i have no desire to dicuss it on this forum , no need to rehatch old arguments , if i have any questions i will go to you guys directly

all that being said i hope we are all capable of sharing information with out trying to prove who's on first and whats' on second and i don't know is on third

end of sermin i will pass the donation basket starting from left to right

PaulH

01-19-2004, 02:07 PM

Savi,

Thanks for your kind words. I am responsible for my own acts and as I promise Hendrik earlier, I will gracefully bow out any issues between you two. Thanks for your understanding.

Regards,
PH

duende

01-19-2004, 02:20 PM

Ernie,

I totally understand where you are coming from... That is probably why I've been a stranger as of late.

So believe me, I wouldn't want to suck you or anyone into it.

But despite my utter distaste for all this, I think it's important to clarify where the family crap is being brought in
, who's bringing it in, and under what circumstances.

Anyways,
good training to you...

Savi

01-19-2004, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
since i am a modernest and feel that there is no way in the world any of those old style fighters or methods would last 5 seconds in against the level of athelete and fighter that exisit today , IMO What do you mean by old style fighters or methods? Are you referring to the martial artists from those 1970 kung fu flicks? Or the martialists from the age of hand-to-hand warfare several centuries back? What old style fighters are you comparing against "the level of athelete and fighter that exisit today"?

Ernie

01-19-2004, 02:45 PM

savi
What do you mean by old style fighters or methods? Are you referring to the martial artists from those 1970 kung fu flicks? Or the martialists from the age of hand-to-hand warfare several centuries back? What old style fighters are you comparing against "the level of athelete and fighter that exisit today"?

savi
with every passing year we get stronger and faster and a deeper understanding of the human body , what to when to eat and how it effects out ''machine''

there have been so many advancements , and so much light shed on the myth's of old

fighters and atheletes alike are building better ''machines'' with this infromation

this information was not available to people in the past , they did the best with what they new
had they known more they would have been better
in the end there is one common denomiater '' the human machine ''
so that for me is my starting and ending point

i really don't care if i will be able to fight if i'm 70
if i'm still fighting when i'm 70 , well then i'm an idiot and learned nothing from life

if you push all the b.s. aside '' not talking to you directly just in general ''
it comes down to two men go in a room one walks out the other is carried out

and i highly doubt
that any of the past great's would hold there own today my opinion

Savi

01-19-2004, 02:57 PM

If you answered my question, I didn't see it (sorry).

Are you referring to:

1. The people who lived and died by the sword?

2. The people who lived without today's social comforts and conveniences, but by simple survival?

3. Or the ones who have been domesticated within sporting environments and publicized events?

I think there is a difference between true warriors and a competitive athlete. Are you referring to the "Win or lose" type people, or the "live or die" type people? Which type are you talking about? Help me out, yo.

Ernie

01-19-2004, 03:18 PM

savi ,
If you answered my question, I didn't see it (sorry).

Are you referring to:

1. The people who lived and died by the sword?

2. The people who lived without today's social comforts and conveniences, but by simple survival?

3. Or the ones who have been domesticated within sporting environments and publicized events?

I think there is a difference between true warriors and a competitive athlete. Are you referring to the "Win or lose" type people, or the "live or die" type people? Which type are you talking about? Help me out, yo.

again please don't take this personal
but all the arguments , of true warriors and athletic events means nothing to me
let me explain
regardless i'f a person is going into the fight of there life or sporting event ,
that person has to move around and lock horns with another well trainined person , who is trying to do the same thing to them
so by the nature of combat/confrontation

they will seek out and try to do anything to give them a edge
some how advance there body and mind
the tools and information mation availible now is light years ahead of what was availible 10 years ago and 100,200,1,000 years ago

they human engine is the common denominater in any action sport or duel to the death

if the engine is superior well you do the math

i know people are very nastalgic and need to uphold the stories of the past . i am not one of those people
also '' [no one i repeat no one beyond pro fighters and the military train as if there life depended on it . so it is a illusion to use this comparison. ]

you could not function in our society with that type of ''wireing ''
again nothing directed at you or yours just how i feel take it or leave it it's cool

canglong

01-19-2004, 03:28 PM

originally posted by hendrik
Both Jing has to be understood and cultivate in SLT. Again, it is not Shao Lin type of Jing
originally posted by hendrik
That's the reason I am searching for it too! I will teach you when I found it!
originally posted by Ernie
i agree , but how do you cultivate it , talking is easy doing is something else and teaching is another thing all together Ernie asking this question is the same as asking how to cultivate Qi and you don't advocate that do you and secondly if you had a penny for every thread hendrik replied to with I don't know you would be wealthy if you had a dime for everytime he was sure something was not Shaolin even though he is unsure what it's true nature is you would be rich and if you had a nickle for every time hendrik answered someone else's questions you would indeed be very poor.

anerlich

01-19-2004, 03:30 PM

HFY and Chi Sim were both discussed in Complete Wing Chun.

Complete Wing Chun referred to HFY as "Hung Suen" Wing Chun, Look again, you'll see Garrett Gee in that chapter.

Ernie

01-19-2004, 03:47 PM

tony
Ernie asking this question is the same as asking how to cultivate Qi and you don't advocate that do you and secondly if you had a penny for every thread hendrik replied to with I don't know you would be wealthy if you had a dime for everytime he was sure something was not Shaolin even though he is unsure what it's true nature is you would be rich and if you had a nickle for every time hendrik answered someone else's questions you would indeed be very poor.

as for the qi thing your right it means nothing to me , i only care about body mechnics and mental triggers ,
though when people trainwithme the tell me i have alot of ''qi'' i just laugh , not in a mean way but i just think it's funny

as for hendrick , i have had a pleasent phone conversation with him , were much information and idea's were shared , nothing to do with '' history'' as i wouldn't partake in such a discussion , but spoke of fighting and training , no metaphors so i know he is very capable of answering me directly
thus i ask a direct question
and wait and see
no different then if i asked you a direct question
but in all honesty if the answers drift from english and sound like some scroll that is hundreds of years old i lose interest
the world has come along way and we should be able to communicte with out , going into chinese,greek what ever
just say it plain and simple
if some one truly understands something , not just reciting some one elses words they should be able to put in a way that is easy to understand and pass on .
but to each there own , i can only hope for the best :)

Gangsterfist

01-19-2004, 04:15 PM

Anerlich-

Thanks I made that connection after I had already posted. Heh I don't speak catonese or mandarin so I get confused real easily with all those different names hehe. Thanks for clarifying that though, appreciate it.

As for this family talk, and people arguing, and my lineage vs your lineage stuff - cut it out. All lineages of wing chun have similarities and refined differences. Some will have extreme differences, for example HFY WCK is different than my lineage. One of my sifu's brothers ended up taking HFY, thats where I have heard it before. I am not saying its better or worse, its just different. Maybe After a few more years in my current lineage I may look to train in a different one to learn those small or extreme differences.

For energy relase, chi relase, whatever you want to call it in WCK. A lot of WC practioners do not even believe in chi (qi). They will call it a good feeling, or energy, or biokinetics. It can be argued every which way back and forth with scientific data backing it up. It would be useless to argue about it. My great grandmaster doesn't really believe in chi, and has never talked about it in any training or seminar. He doesn't deny that its there either however. If you can feel this sensation in your forms, chain punches, palm strikes, chi sao, etc then more power to ya. If you can't, well then hey its not necessarily needed to win a fight, nor is it needed to build up sensitivity.

So now that we are discussing short/medium range energy release. What is the easiest way that one learns to relase energy into a strike. Probably with a punch or palm strike of some sort. Then again at real close range 1 to 3 inches away. Then how to do you develope it in your kicks, elbows, knees, head buts, shoulders, in all of your 13 weapons?

Is it all agrred upon that energy (chi) comes from the ground up transmitted through the hips? Or is it devleoped from your dan tien? How do you guys train for this stuff, and can you tell if you are making progress, or even doing it the right way? I would say learning how to put your whole body behind attacks with out over committing in the slightest way by optimizing skeletal/muscle structure is where the power lies.

Whats your guys input on how energy is even developed before it is released? How many circumstances come into play when needing/wanting to release your energy in a strike?

canglong

01-19-2004, 04:27 PM

Ernie,
your private and personal interaction with people are just that. What is being referenced here is hendriks use of this board and one need only review his or anyone else's post to understand their intent. Forums should only facilitate greater awareness of what is possible so people might as you say take or leave what they will not belittle or riducle others no matter what your personal view of the others might be which as I say if you check the record hendrik is dreadfully guilty of.

PaulH

01-19-2004, 04:41 PM

Life after Fifty Everything hurts and what doesn't hurt doesn't work. The gleam in your eyes is from the sun hitting your bifocals. You feel like the night before and you haven't been anywhere. You get winded playing chess. Your children begin to look middle aged. You begin to outlive enthusiasm. Your mind makes contracts your body can't meet. You know all the answers, but nobody asks you the questions. You look forward to a dull evening. Your favorite part of the newspaper is 25 Years Ago Today. You sit in a rocking chair and can't get it going. Your knees buckle and your belt won't. You reget all those mistakes resisting temptation. Dialing long distance wears you out. Your back goes out more than you do. A fortune teller offers to read your face. You burn the midnight oil after 9:00 pm. You sink your teeth into a steak and they stay there. You get your exercise acting as a pallbearer for your friends who exercise. You have too much room in the house & not enough room in the medicine cabinet. The best part of my day is over when the alarm goes off.
- Rex Guinn
Life after Fifty

Ernie

01-19-2004, 04:43 PM

tony
Ernie,
your private and personal interaction with people are just that. What is being referenced here is hendriks use of this board and one need only review his or anyone else's post to understand their intent. Forums should only facilitate greater awareness of what is possible so people might as you say take or leave what they will not belittle or riducle others no matter what your personal view of the others might be which as I say if you check the record hendrik is dreadfully guilty of.

realy don't care , either way not rude just honest
i am confident enough in my skills and development , that no mater what some one post , it won't sway me
if that personal ever took to personally insulting me as there new reason for living
i would handle the same way i would in real life man to man .
air fare is cheap these days and tracking people down is not difficult ,
no need to bicker , like children over a toy
i'm old school that way ,

but remember you always draw more attention to something by addressing it
which leads me to my next statement i'm done with this silly issue
better to talk about power development

canglong

01-19-2004, 05:35 PM

There is a good reason why hendrik post things like
originally posted by hendrik
Both Jing has to be understood and cultivate in SLT. Again, it is not Shao Lin type of Jing in this forum and not over in the shaolin forum. As for the rest of the discussion we all just pick and choose when to post nothing mysterious about that. Good luck developing your Qi :D

yuanfen

01-19-2004, 06:18 PM

Hendrik earlier said:

Rou Jing is a type of power which is characterized "within soft carry hard" .

Kang jing (kong in cantonese, go in japanese as in gojuryu )
is a type of power which is "within hard carry the soft".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In discussing "Rou" phenix attempted to distinguish between
that and forms of power in shaolin styles.

So many styles claim shaolin origins-but many nejia people not just phenix tend to lump all shaolin styles together under "external".

That distinction is often made by various people-correctly or incorrectly. It needs no reading in of a special phenix agenda
to agree or disagree with that distinction.

Several years ago---there was another intense and mostly forgettable "dialog" between some wing chunners and a "neija"
stylist.
It doesnt hurt, it seems to me to try and discuss different kinds of jing can be fruitful.. explaining reasons for differences of opinion when they are there can be fruitful, not just dissonant or agenda driven.
"Steel bar wrapped in cotton" is another way I have heard to describe rou jing.

Ernie

01-19-2004, 07:13 PM

joy
i have taught this in similar fashion
hard with soft inside or soft with hard inside different but the same ,
when one ends the other begins

i was just trying to get a basic body mechanic discription from those who have a deeper understanding then myself , with out the conversation drifting into a reading of whats on a scroll , rock whatever .

lets create a cryptic free zone :D

anerlich

01-19-2004, 08:17 PM

"Steel bar wrapped in cotton" is another way I have heard to describe rou jing.

Personally, I like "velvet sledgehammer". :D

anerlich

01-19-2004, 08:41 PM

I think there is a difference between true warriors and a competitive athlete. Are you referring to the "Win or lose" type people, or the "live or die" type people? Which type are you talking about? Help me out, yo.

I don't think there's that much of a difference. It is the situation, not the person.

I think you can be both a tough competitor, and also have a good chance of prevailing in a life or death situation.

If you have a survival instinct, you will probably also be a good competitor due to the qualities of determination and perseverance required in both.

What I don't think is likely is that someone who can't perform adequately in sporting contests will somehow get transformed into a killing machine when the stakes are higher.

Or the flip side, that someone who trains purely for crippling defense can't tone it down for a sporting contest or robust full on training with friends or strangers, is rubbish. If you only have one setting for your MA, "kill", I'm glad I don't interact with you or your Sifu.

One of my sihings was an SAS trooper who also came second in the Australian Kung-fu championships, and contnued to spar with us on return from active duty in Rwanda. He knew where the inner switch was and when he did and didn't need to flip it.

If the only testing of your method is done slowly because "we train to kill or destroy", and your only pressure testing is against imaginary opponents, you (general) are dealing with theory and not reality.

I invite the naysayers to read some of Matt Thornton's thoughts on Street vs Sport on the Underground:

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=SetMasterFrame&FID=21&PID=17

They've just redone their site and the thread links are all SNAFU, the thread you want is on "the streetfighter mindset".

The added advantage or sport oriented training is the fun factor. If you (general) think there's something wrong with that, I pity you.

Phenix

01-19-2004, 10:54 PM

Ernie, Paul, Joy, anerlich,....

A few opinion,

1, Chi is not difficult to cultivate at all. But Chi will not by itself doing the strike..... dont live in fantasy island.

Chi flow sensation is a good indicator of whether certain part of the body has blockage or not , Is the body link properly under relax but not scatering condition, and how strong the link.
It can be use to do self diagnosis. Dont expect a magic suddently one become super man. There is no such things.
To know chi but dont know the resultant force describe below DONOT know about Jing issuing.

To cultivate the sensitiveness of the flow or the Chi.... one needs to relax the mind- brain/body-breathing. Now a days an Infra red themal meter or a EEG brain ware mechine or....breathing repetition counter..... ect type of Biofeed back machine can get one into this understanding about body. Nothing myth at all.

2, there is something call resultant force. The awareness of resultant force interact at all part of the limb has to be develop before advance optimal use of Jing. since Force vector in the body is complex vector. Thus, the practice such as the pillow clamping is to develop the awareness of the resultant force. aware of and be able to make use of this resultant force to align the complex force vector to aid or subtraction is the key of utilization of the Wholesome vector force of the body.
Why a firm flexible Pillow? because if it is a Can or a bottle, then one will clamp it brutally, pillow force one to constantly adapt to aware of the existance of the resultant force.

Thus, the YJKYM is not sitting there like a Hung Gar hard horse stace. There are resultant force training. IT is about a constant adjusting application of force. It is dynamic and adaptive.

3, The WCK has the Rou Jing. disregard of what people call or arguement of the Neijia. ... ect which I see it as an arguement of brand not the content.

WCK do not rigidly using the muscle acceleration to power the strike. if WCK rely on rigid muscle acceleration. then, at an old age, Say Grandfather Yip will not be able to defeat young guy like Wong. In additon, how can one reach a high acceleration with such a short / medium range muscular acceleration to sustain the already incoming force/ momentum from a wide stance rush or colision?

Thus, some when do not have a good grasp of the different way of energy issueing, Turn to wide stance and rigid force for answer.

Dont believe me? next time when you look at people's picture doing the woodern dummy. If you look at Grandad Yip, or Grand dad Yuan... you see they practically stick to the dummy. and he still be able to issue energy.

As for some others, one can see they keep a distance away from the dummy, why? because they are not able to issue/ applied the "proper" type of energy in close range like Grandfather Yip, Yuen... They need to keep a further distance to generated the power. Or , They need to go in for strike and out to generated the power. or also might be using wider stance to generated power. and this wider stance will then cause more distance from the dummy. This wide stance and in / out generation of power is a kiss of death when suddenly rush in by Grapper. the Grapper will not let one go out to accelerate enough power. When one cannot accelarate enough power to sustain and intercepted one is taken down in no time.

My agenda is simple, to discuss the power/energy issuing. Because I belive there are lots of inteligent within the power/energy issuing. Certainly people can disagree with me.

Just some thought. Again, I can be right or wrong. I might be full of it.

Ernie

01-19-2004, 11:33 PM

hendrik
very nice post , thanks for stepping up to the plate
i really liked 2 points how the stance has to be adaptive and constantly adjusting , not fixed or frozen

and having live energy on the dummy not dead crashing energy
both of these are very important in my training

i knew you had it in you:)

PaulH

01-20-2004, 12:02 AM

Whoever think of using the pillow for this kind of cultivation is a genius!

Phenix

01-20-2004, 12:38 AM

Ernie, Pual,

Long Story, about 25 years ago, my late sifu Cho Hong-choy was not very happy when one of his student who is a Hung Gar master using the Iron Wire concept to perform a part of his SLT in public.

He told me about the different of Jings and what not to screw up, how should it looks like... and .... on The night we got back from the celebration gathering....

I dont know much about Jing and lots of what he can do I cant do. He is proffesional and I am not.

but It seems that history always repeat itself.... constantly people walk into same things when it comes to energy issueing.

see, those Shao Lin type wide house stance also is not suitable to cultivate the pilow.... a, too wide, b, too low.... lots of muscles tense up .....

WCK has the technolgy. Points 1, 2, 3 all is one when everything systemicly integrated.

Just some thought.

PS:

I am going to listern to sound of silence. :D

Hello darkness, my old friend,
I've come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left its seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.
In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone, ...............

yuanfen

01-20-2004, 07:26 AM

Hendrik-
with careful reading--- there are gems in your last long post
on the distinctions between a live and a dead slt and also the issue of proper stance spacing in optimal wing chun development.
A problem is that it takes a while to understand that.

Phenix

01-20-2004, 09:18 AM

Joy,

For me, Sau or Kiu...... doesnt mean much until the core is solid.
Otherwise it will only be a gun without bullets. There are similar explicit looking guns with different type of bullets. I hope people look into the bullets instead of the draw conclusion with the shape of the gun.

A good song I like..

Starry, Starry night
Portraits hung in empty halls
Frameless heads on nameless walls
With eyes that watch the world and can't forget
Like the strangers that you've met
The ragged men in ragged clothes
The silver thorn, a bloody rose
Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow.

Now I think I know
What you tried to say, to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free:
They would not listen; they're not listening still --
Perhaps they never will.

Phenix

01-20-2004, 10:33 AM

Joy,

Remember the Yik Kam's four points on Issing power?
The process of issuing Jing is there Open in the public.

This type of Jing is heaven and earth different compare with the typical Shao Lin type. It is closer to White Crane and Yee Chuan.
Actually, one can just look at some photograph and see if one has it or not. One can pick up the different signal's from the structure, the hand,...the distance keep..... See, one can scanning the habit if one know where to look, similar to the dummy photo I mention above. And habit cannot be change over night. One's kungfu is petty transparent. That is same with Chan or any mental training. There are certain sign there.

For example, with the Chakras system which you are more familiar then me. If the 4th Chakra is not balance then there is no way one can stablely elevate to the spiritual realm. Because the 1,2, 3 are all physical realm with coarse Identity of seperation. Without the transformation at the 4th Chakra location, take Faith, 'unconditional compassionate or love to "switch" identity to a "higher self". One will constantly lock in one's little mind with seperation of thought and thinker, as J Krinamurti put it. So, without the 4th chakra energy balance the 3rd Chakra will always run into power struggle. And all of these influnce daily life , thougths, health, and energy.

So, one cannot pretend that one has understood and switch to faith and raise above the 4th to the 5th. if one's thought is filled fully with plan's, programs, formulars.....ect to cover this up to prepare for that..... it is a struggling and suffering.
There is no faith no space for grow there, thus, one suffer. It is always in-adequate . wants more and more. We modern people are like that some get more and more computers or cell phone or cars for status....ect. But that is not what the "inteligent" or wisdom of the past sage.

Eventhought the advance the technology, the higher the degree one got from school. IF one doesnt past this 4th chakra's journey. Then, the habit show. cannot be fake out. and the identify of where one is comes with the thought. cannot be fake out.

The reason I bring the history's kuit out which is bore Ernie to death :D is to follow the traditional Chinese way --- If the name is not proper the communication is not properly follow.
Eventhough I can explain in layman english to very details but there need to be source from the past, otherwise, It is like one is inventing it and write onr own history. It is similar to the esoteric varjavana transmittion. the transmittion has to be straight. Otherwise, later one confused the heck out of the next generation.

Those kuits are there for years and years... one can go check it out that others in the family heard about it.

Those kuit is our tikect for growing and expanding WCK also. Otherwise, the NeiJia people will say Oh you copy mine... :D

Just another some thought

Ernie

01-20-2004, 10:53 AM

hendrik
The reason I bring the history's kuit out which is bore Ernie to death is to follow the traditional Chinese way --- If the name is not proper the communication is not properly follow.
Eventhough I can explain in layman english to very details but there need to be source from the past, otherwise, It is like one is inventing it and write thier own history.

Those kuits are there for years and years... one can go check it out that others in the family heard about it.

Those kuit is our tikect for growing and expanding WCK also. Otherwise, the NeiJia people will say Oh you copy mine...

Just another some thought

ha ha
man who cares were it comes from as long as it works , all the time spent trying to figure out why this or that guy point there finger up or down , or who was the first to invent wing chun is a huge waste of time ,
just spend the time using it and refining it . since we already know it's there , like nike says just do it
do you think when these idea's and concepts were being put together that anyone that had to use them in combat , gave a rats a$$ if it was from this temple or that mountain ,

does finding out who was the very first person to write the first word or sentence , make you write any better
of course not , that origianl language is dead , it had it's place and it's time , but there will always be those that will sift through rocks to find old dead things i guess :D

things must change , why waste time on the dead
if people had all this jing then , i'm sure people have it now
if no one has it now then , it probably never really exisited just stories to pass the time since there was no sitcoms back then:D

oh uh i'm ranting again

hendrick see what happens when you try and bore me to death:D

old jong

01-20-2004, 11:06 AM

Phenix
I think many have brought it to the 6th chakra for the intuitive level of action. But,I know what you mean by the 4th chakra..."recieve what comes" ;)

Phenix

01-20-2004, 11:14 AM

Ernie,

When one doesnt have a Last name preserve.

Then, one might married one's sister. Or fall into the sad story of one cannot married that sexy hot girl because that might be one's sister.

Married is about man and woman. But preserving the Last Name is about Society structure and preserving a part of nature. Both is important as soon as we are human.

Just some thought

Ernie

01-20-2004, 11:26 AM

but i know my sister , she lives with in my life time , she is real not an old story

preserve is best left for jelly

better to spend time doing then talking about how some old dead guy did it

just some thoughts

would it not be better to free ourselves from all old luggage , if it has worth it will be obvious and sustain itself
if it is fading away then that is how things are progession of life

Phenix

01-20-2004, 11:31 AM

Hi Old Jong,

See, I can explain things in chakras system also.

Say, anyone feel insecure will have a tendency to widen their stance so that the first Chakra can get the support from the mother earth energy. and they will trying to tap tribal energy to support thier believe system. And we do so similar to when we represent a big coorporation to do business. That business card of us filled with XYZ's coorporate tribal energy. Like say we work for Microsoft.... that's lots of tribal energy before one even engage in talking.

Now, with YJKYM which is higher in nature, if one doesnt develop the resultant force, then one cannot tap into or getting support from the Ground earth energy. But then there is another part with is the energy from the heaven where the 7th chakra is needed to be activate. the 6th activate via the yee. As for people who is not balance in the 1st chakra, they will constantly trying to draw energy from the tribal to support or supliment thier indequate.

Say the boxer rebellion of China, Qing has lost its Ground, the 1st chakra is totally chaos. Under despration, Qing is making use of the Spirit, the magic to support/substitute them---boxer rebellion. But, tragically, the Tribal, the spiritual, the magic substitution of Qing cannot replace the bullets technology which is a strong 1st, 2nd, 3rd, chakra combinational invention with firm ground that brought to the reality. Thus, tragic happen. That happen in our daily life too when we dont face our issue and lost ground.

If you read Carolin Myss's anatomy of energy.... one can find this out... about tribal power, personal power....

http://www.iawake.com/emporium/sndstrue/anatomy.html

and like Ernie :D who take pleasure enjoy sensation from the 2nd. So, Ernie likes to stay in the second because he got the 1st balance, feel secure, and enjoy the fruits with the second. But then when he grow older and older, similar to all of us, he will grow into the 3rd chakra where identity has to be balance. Then we will appreciate why those old Kuit needed.

Then, there is hendrik, trying to push everyone above the 4th because he is reading some wild book told him that without balancing 4th. One is always lock into the physical realm. only until in 5th then one has one's own identity. ... then 6th to have the vision ....

Just some Wild old thought. Ofcause I always can be wrong.

Ernie

01-20-2004, 11:42 AM

and like Ernie who take pleasure enjoy sensation from the 2nd. So, Ernie likes to stay in the second because he got the 1st balance, feel secure, and enjoy the fruits with the second. But then when he grow older and older, similar to all of us, he will grow into the 3rd chakra where identity has to be balance. Then we will appreciate why those old Kuit needed.

hey stay out of my chakra's :D

hendrick
the stance as i have been taught is broken into 4 tiers
shifting from high , middle high , middle low and low mental focal points in conjunction with joint expansion and contaction as it relates to accepting / projecting / and guiding of force
this also relates to the distance of the opponent

so it's a living changing stance with a natural relation to the person you are dealing with

no need for low deep focus power if he is 6 feet away
no need for high light focus if the wave is crashing down on you
all this guided by feeling and experience

not that big of a deal

once one learns to really accept what comes , not crash into it or try and wedge it , just merge with it , then everything else just flows
you can't merge with something that is living and changeing if you are fixed or limited '' if you have only one stubborn way ''

stubborn is for mules we are human

Phenix

01-20-2004, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Ernie

you can't merge with something that is living and changeing if you are fixed or limited '' if you have only one stubborn way ''

stubborn is for mules we are human

See, you need to go above the 4th Chakra. :D

Nothing is boring after the 4th. be it kuen kuit or chakra or adjusting stance or......everything is appreciated. otherwise one become a mule.:D

see crossing the 4th Chakra is similar to enter into the type 7 , the second tie of the spiral dynamics.

7. Yellow: Systemic This is the first vMeme of the second tier (described below) in which there is a quantum shift in the capacity to take multiple perspectives in life. YELLOW is motivated by learning for its own sake and is oriented towards integration of complex systems. Change is a welcome part of the process in organizations and life; YELLOW likes the challenges. It is characterized by systems thinking, an orientation to how parts interact to create a greater whole. Unique talents and dispositions are honored as contributing something valuable to the whole. YELLOW likes engineering complex systems and dealing with ideas. It is also ecologically oriented, but in a more subdued, behind the scenes way. YELLOW thinkers often work on the periphery of organizations, quietly fine-tuning situations and procedures, much to the bafflement of the first tier vMemes. (Hawking's Brief History of Time, chaos theory, eco-industrial parks, Wired magazine, 1% of world population, 5% of power) ----spiral dynamics

http://www.soulwork.net/sw_articles_eng/graves_3.htm

http://www.clarewgraves.com/research_content/CG&others/3_Maslow.html

the ancient and the modern is one.

Just some thought.

old jong

01-20-2004, 11:49 AM

I can see "tribal energy" as succombing to fads or imitating who our perceptions consider as the strongests!...We feel as a member of the gang in some way.The gang gives us power.
Back to chakras: True you may feel unbalanced by leaving the security of a lower position,true also that the highter energy will balance it back in another and better way.

old jong

01-20-2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Ernie

hey stay out of my chakra's :D

Specially in that region where the first and second ones are!!!...;) :D

Ernie

01-20-2004, 11:59 AM

Chakra shmakra
lets get back to eye jabs and groin kicks :D

life is so much easier that way:D

later gents off to pretend to work , and sneak in some wing chun if i can find a willing victem :)

Phenix

01-20-2004, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by old jong
I can see "tribal energy" as succombing to fads or imitating who our perceptions consider as the strongests!...We feel as a member of the gang in some way.The gang gives us power.
.....

True, until we cross the boundary of the 4th chakra and the tie two towards the type seven of Spiral dynamics.

Then, things transform. one's identify grow and expand.

Can't stay in type two for advance art.

2. Purple: Tribal animistic, magical, spiritistic, close to the earth and cyclic in outlook. This leads to tribal groupings, focus on rituals to appease ancestral spirits. Blood bonds are strong. Management of PURPLE demands respect for clan rules and allegiances, respect to the clan "leaders." Rewarding someone too visibly can break the group bond with negative consequences. Change must be embodied in rituals, traditions, and symbols. (guardian angels and voodoo-like curses, blood oaths, lucky charms, superstitions, athletic team bonding, 10% of world population, 1% of power)

Phenix

01-20-2004, 12:08 PM

Old Jong is right.

See, you love to stay in 1st and 2nd Chakra relegion of consciousness. :D

Got to get Diaz to help you out. :D

But, believe it or not Chakra tailor one's art's advancement.

see, the title of the topic is ---- The Search for Intelligent Life in WC. not the un intelligent " eye jabs and groin kicks " :D

Phenix

01-20-2004, 12:21 PM

Vision State 7: I Connect Systems
I live independently within a connected world. I develop by learning and experiencing new things. I explore ways to bring meaning to my life and the lives of others. I enjoy exploring relationships and I enjoy the freedom to be and to do as I choose.

I want to do better, yet I am not ambitious; I compare myself today against myself yesterday. I esteem your competence and reason yet I question your authority and your rules. I respect your learning and experience and not your power, dogma, status or allegiance. I like to succeed and I can learn from failure and feedback. I can defend myself and I am not defensive. I am flexible and motivated, and I enjoy paradox and ambiguity. I want to be competent, and once competent I may move on.

Look for me emerging into main stream thinking in Europe and North America. See me in environmental science and cybernetics. Find me writing books, plays, poetry and biographies. Look for me teaching management science and philosophy. See me in architecture and engineering design. Find me in systemic coaching.

At my worst I am intolerant, ignoring the outer world and immersing myself in my inner world. I may become addicted to information or lose myself in interesting ideas. I may take psychoactive drugs to distract and explore myself.

At my best I am adaptable and practical. I enjoy using different learning experiences to increase the quality of my life.

I am project centered and I can work independently. My organization must respond appropriately to our changing world. Our projects must provide practical long term results on many levels. Our project is more important than your status and your feelings. The most competent person should manage each part of our project.

Be a model of competence. Show me how much I can learn and how my work will benefit others on many levels. Ensure that I have the right resources and training. I can communicate with anybody who has resources I need. Ask me for my ideas and listen to me. I enjoy creating integrated practical models. I need to do my part well.

I resent unnecessary paperwork and unwieldy procedures. I am frustrated by inefficiency, superficial solutions, short term planning, insignificant details and ineffectual methods. Above all, I am stressed by incompetent superiors and untrustworthy co-workers.

If you are my manager - do not try to force your rules onto me. Do not withhold important information. Do not be petty, punitive or waste my time. Do not make my work boring and repetitive. Do not interfere with my right to be or to learn. I accept that you have your compulsions, perceptions and values, but I may not accept them for myself.

My religion teaches me interesting things and offers a variety of experiences. I may change religions often. I choose my ethics and I rarely condemn the ethics of others.

I can learn from any situation. I have many diverse interests and I may not know my goals. I rarely compete or strive to please others. Be motivated and challenge me. Coach me and give me useful information, materials and experiences. I will use whatever I can. I want to learn at my own pace. I am flexible and I want variety. Give me feedback so that I may improve. I may accept your bonuses - and I reward myself.

Sometimes I would like to contribute more to this beautiful and troubled planet. Sometimes I long to participate in complex long-term global projects.

Vision State 7 slogan: "Learn to be Free!"

old jong

01-20-2004, 12:22 PM

BTW Phenix.
Hippies/tree huggers types like to play with these things just to make themselves feel superiors or differents to the crowd.
This does'nt mean they unserstand or can manifest something of interest.They also are in the tribal energy system!...And probably a lot deeper than the guy who knows nothing or does'nt bother about this subject.
Experience is the key.

Phenix

01-20-2004, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by old jong
BTW Phenix.
Hippies/tree huggers types like to play with these things just to make themselves feel superiors or differents to the crowd.
This does'nt mean they unserstand or can manifest something of interest.They also are in the tribal energy system!...And probably a lot deeper than the guy who knows nothing or does'nt bother about this subject.
Experience is the key.

Yup, That's why we need to go type 7 or cross over the 4th chakra. otherwise, we are stay in 1st and fantasy the 5th conciousness.

Only with balance 1, 2, 3 conciousness and solid physical balancing, one will cross the 4th. Move on to the 5th. and that is different. A master of its own.... and the trasformation just beging.

without solid physical and lower chakras balansing ideas are rooted in limbo...... or day dream.

old jong

01-20-2004, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Phenix

without solid physical and lower chakras balansing ideas are rooted in limbo...... or day dream.

And "limbo" as you know is going "under the bar" instead of over it!...;)
But!...Let's activate that 4th before we turn into snobs and forget that everybody will do it someday...:p

(BTW, martial arts are only a very small part of the applications)

anerlich

01-20-2004, 02:25 PM

The reason I bring the history's kuit out which is bore Ernie to death is to follow the traditional Chinese way --- If the name is not proper the communication is not properly follow.

You underestimate yourself, Ernie's not the only one being bored to death. :cool:

Chakhra-schmakhra. Anyone read "Prometheus Rising" by Robert Anton Wilson? A more interesting discussion of "levels" IMO

Ernie

01-20-2004, 02:38 PM

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee flatline eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee is he dead eeeeeeeeeeeeee quick shock his chakra eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee zap /zap eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee beep beep beep , we have a heart beat beep beep beep , dr, he's coming around , looks like he wants to say something beep beep beep were am i beep beep beep still in the middle of hedriks never ending chakra post beep beep beep eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee dr. what happened eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee he pulled his on plug eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeema ke it official time of death 1:45 pm 1/20/04......................................

back from a [cough cough ] hard day at work , to be bored to death were is the justice in that:D

Phenix

01-20-2004, 02:46 PM

This is Wing Chun.

Phenix

01-20-2004, 02:48 PM

Ernie,

Those eeeeeee.... eeee
is that a print out from a DEAD printer? :D

old jong

01-20-2004, 02:48 PM

Is that ....YIM?....;)

PaulH

01-20-2004, 03:12 PM

I see lethal power, accuracy, speed, a good tracking and delivery system in that clip. Sun Tzu would have jump up and down for joy!

old jong

01-20-2004, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
I saw this interesting clip that have a lot of intelligence from the HFY108.com. Does WC have anything comparable in this victory through superior force concept?

http://www.vetsquad.com/Helicopter_Kills.mpeg
Just like some video game!:(

PaulH

01-20-2004, 03:21 PM

Old Jong,

It's ugly and brutal. Fighting is never pretty. I wonder if WC supposedly a combat art ever reveal its ugly side.

Regards,
PH

old jong

01-20-2004, 03:43 PM

PaulH
Wing Chun is (IMHO) just a way to be ready to do something we would prefer not to do. I see it as a defense weapon even if it's by nature very agressive.

There is nothing below 100% in a real situation and I bet on it to be ugly but...It's a beauty to practice!...;)

PaulH

01-20-2004, 03:49 PM

Good reply, OJ. I would hate to think that somewhere along in an evil past, it was designed to hone to perfection the cold efficient killer mindset. Thanks.

PH

Phenix

01-21-2004, 08:51 AM

So?

Do you really know the intelligent in Force issuing and WCK?

and differentiate between technology power with tribal power?

and respect the past wisdom response the same with the survival instinct?

Phil Redmond

01-21-2004, 10:18 AM

I've seen this clip many times and I don't think military higher ups will think it "intelligent" to have this posted all over the web. Especially the scene where they opened fire on the wounded guy. I not sure what the Geneva convention laws are on that today, but my Marine unit in Vietnam wouldn't have done it unless it was while taking on and returning fire, or the individual was still potentially dangerous, like reaching for a weapon, etc. Of course I don't know all of the details of the encounter but I'm thinking whoever let that clip get out might have to face the piper (UCMJ).

PaulH

01-21-2004, 10:28 AM

The patterns of the mankind's history of invention have been more or less toward more efficient killings so far. From the crude sticks, stones, arrows, metal swords, cannons, machine guns, howitzers, tanks, B52 and the atomic bomb. WC's invention by Ng Mui? would not be an exception though it is graced with a strong benevolent Taoist or Buddhist philosophy. I personally think the genius of WC lies in its practical applications of Sun Tzu's warfare strategies. It reveals very little of itself while it knows everythings that the enemy can do. It's brain vs power and strength.

Regards,
PH

old jong

01-21-2004, 11:20 AM

What make me sad about this clip is the total lack of humanity in the ****pit of this aircraft.
How powerful can you feel at the guns of a combat helicopter?...
How helpless can you feel when you are shooted at by something you can't even see in the dark?...
No wonder so many veterans are living the rest of their lives with mental problems. No human being,whatever the training,can do that kind of "work" without paying a price of some kind.
Too bad things like that have to happen.

old jong

01-21-2004, 11:22 AM

That censor thing had to forbid coc kpit!...:rolleyes:

Gangsterfist

01-21-2004, 11:32 AM

Thats what they do in the military. They dehumanize you to become more of a machine than human. An army of one? No individuality, just a machine that can kill. If they did not train you that way maybe you wouldn't last 5 minutes in a war who knows. I have some friends in the marine corps. One of them was a marksman who carried the heavy machine gun in the squad. When they were doing urban combat training they were firing blanks and the guns shot out lasers like laser tag. If you were hit a sensor would go off telling you, you were dead.

My buddy said he made tons of sensors go off with his heavy machine gun, but at the same time died like 20 times a day while training. That kind of training lets you know if you go to war and are in a urban combat situation you are probably going to get shot and possibly die.

So yeah I can see why a lot of veterans have mental problems, and its sad that they had to go through those things.

PaulH

01-21-2004, 11:58 AM

"Saving Private Ryan" movie summed up rather well what the average soldier feel on the rationality of war. I don't like to generalize and classify them all into one "Mental" basket. I will go back and delete the clip if I can as I don't see any intelligence anymore to prolong unnecessary violence for the viewing pleasure of the mass.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-21-2004, 12:46 PM

A good martail art is not necessary the creation for military purpose. Say, Aikido.

A good WCK doesnt have to link itself to Rebells for marketing purpose. Because the art itself has a very high value.

A great art doesnt have to based on any tribal power. It alone shine if there is technology in it.

He who promote seperation will not raise to advance art. When there is seperation there is counter and attack. There is fear . There is against. Osense had teached about it. Wang Xiang Zai has wrote about it.... there is no seperation. only oneness. Non Dual is the magic of effortless. Duality drain energy.

CarlDouglas108

01-21-2004, 01:28 PM

Phil Redmond>I've seen this clip many times and I don't think military higher ups will think it "intelligent" to have this posted all over the web. Especially the scene where they opened fire on the wounded guy. I not sure what the Geneva convention laws are on that today, but my Marine unit in Vietnam wouldn't have done it unless it was while taking on and returning fire, or the individual was still potentially dangerous, like reaching for a weapon, etc. Of course I don't know all of the details of the encounter but I'm thinking whoever let that clip get out might have to face the piper (UCMJ)

The pilots, from the Army's 4th Infantry Division, ask their commanders for permission to engage, then take the three men out one by one, using the Apache's devastating 30 mm cannons.

Nighttime Scene

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver.

Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

When he rolls out from under the truck, one of the pilots says, "He's wounded."

The other pilot says, "Hit him," and the Apache opens fire again, killing the man.

The Apache fires nearly 100 30 mm cannon rounds in all.

Engagement Called Justified

A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.

Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.

Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."

As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have

Regards

CD

Ernie

01-21-2004, 01:42 PM

It alone shine if there is technology in it.

[so shouldn't our only goal be advancement of that technology
and in that way really paying tribute to those that worked hard before us]

hendrik
He who promote seperation will not raise to advance art. When there is seperation there is counter and attack. There is fear .

[ by trying to prove who was first and were things come from , thus drawing attention to this or that line , what is that if not a attempt to be seperate ? ]

wouldn't it be so much easier to just lay it all out on the table ''for free'' and pressure test everything toss out the obsolete and refine the good
skill doesn't need to be linked to any type of past to work , it either works under pressure or it doesn't .
but i guess this would be to easy and many ''talkers'' would have to stop talking
the sound of bursting bubbles would be deafening
:)

PaulH

01-21-2004, 01:49 PM

Boom! Where has my bubble gone? Ha! Ha! Good points, Ernie!

anerlich

01-21-2004, 02:27 PM

Good reply, OJ. I would hate to think that somewhere along in an evil past, it was designed to hone to perfection the cold efficient killer mindset. Thanks.

Yes, Paul. Personally, I like a sport-oriented and athleticism-based approach to my training. Thinking about ripping people's throats out, blinding them, breaking knee tendons, and permanently incapacitating people all the time doesn't diminish the fear and paranoia, it feeds it.

I'm not sure the clip mentioned and discussed is a good example of anything, and its relevance to WC escapes me. But who of us in internet-land can judge, really? Those guys might have been planning to shoot down a plane full of people or blow up a building full of civilians. Or they might not.

Pop, pop, pop go those bubbles ...

Phil Redmond

01-21-2004, 02:48 PM

Hi gangsterfist.
Cool story, and it's Marine Corps, not core ;)
(Once a Marine always a Marine)

PaulH

01-21-2004, 03:00 PM

Anerlich,

Some clips are better left untouched indeed! Your perspective is quite wholesome and fresh air to the previous depressing topic.

Regards,
PH

Gangsterfist

01-21-2004, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hi gangsterfist.
Cool story, and it's Marine Corps, not core ;)
(Once a Marine always a Marine)

oops I knew that. Its one of those days at work I can't concentrate that well because of people getting on my case about their problems. so i am sure some of my words are mispelled and my grammar is off, but hey its an internet forum.

01-21-2004, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
It alone shine if there is technology in it.

[so shouldn't our only goal be advancement of that technology
and in that way really paying tribute to those that worked hard before us]

Good point, and one that begs further inquiry.

For example, we can't truly "advance" an existing technology, unless said technology is a) first understood, and then b) that knowledge is somehow maintained. (It may be no surprise that I find knowledge management a fascinating subject.)

Just today, some of my colleagues and I were discussing this very subject. Someone offered the proposition that technological knowledge and capabilities often appear to be dependent on temporal context. Combined with our abilities, and often enough our inabilities, to maintain and manage knowledge through time, it is little wonder (to me) that mankind spends so much time and effort in re-inventing wheels.

Case in point. One of our local and highly respected technical institutions recently set out to recreate the first flight of the Wright brothers. Despite all that is known today about aerodynamics, the brilliant minds and support behind the exercise, and even intense study combined with known history of the event and what preceded it, the plane crashed.

Our discussion went further to the subject of a potential, future manned moon mission. Debates abound whether a new type of vehicle based on shuttle technology should be developed, or revamp our older rocket technology. Those far more in the know that I am, seem reasonably convinced that we may be unable to successfully recreate the same type of systems today, as in our earlier exploits, without potential flounders and new research.

Some years ago, I worked in a paper mill, in which some of the world's finest and highest quality papers were manufactured. The mill was staffed by "old timers" as well as an increasing number of new, technologically savvy recruits. The new folks relied and promoted - quite sensibly - modern technologies, instrumentation and control systems for higher consistency in the manufacturing process, which in turn would increase output and reduce waste.

The "old timers," all of whom had "apprenticed" from other “old timers” in some fashion or other, tended to rely on simple wooden sticks, with which they would tap and beat the paper in various ways and points throughout the machine, to see, hear, and "feel" it's density, moisture content, tensile strength, and overall quality. After such tests, they would make manual adjustments as needed. A downfall of this method, is that sometimes they would hit a little bit off, and break the paper. The result was having to go through a lengthy process of rethreading the machine, along with a lot of downtime and lost paper (in a nutshell, lost money).

Without going into further excessive detail in this little anecdote, a very interesting phenomenon was observed. Those relying on modern technology did in fact produce high quality papers more consistently, thus improving the overall output of the papermill, and reducing waste. There was, however, another unintended consequence. None of new bunch ever managed to produced paper of overall quality as high as that of some of the "old timers."

In the process of aggressive advancement, something got lost.

I worked in that papermill, supporting and maintaining their control systems for over 3 years. In that short span of time, I observed most of the old-timers retire or become "redeployed," and the new technologies become status quo. The paper coming out of the papermill today, remains consistently at the highest quality levels being produced. Yet no one any longer knows how to make that kind of paper to the peak quality standards that were once a reality. Nor can they apprentice themselves or mine learnings from those “old timers” now long gone.

These sorts of examples beg yet other questions, such as the degree to which individual human experience and interaction - the truly "human factors" - impact our real knowledge. Even our knowledge of things as seemingly rigorous as science and technology.

Assuming these kinds of abstract ramblings have any relevance to the subject at hand, (and in case anyone read this far without falling asleep), there are numerous conclusions one might carry forth. As a premise, I'll propose that in general we, as mere humans, do not yet possess sufficient capabilities to perfectly transmit and preserve knowledge (technological or otherwise) through time and generations. We might then conclude, for example, that

a) it isn't worth trying to preserve old knowledge, since we can't do so perfectly anyway
b) we are so much smarter and more advanced than those who came before us, we don't want or need their old knowledge and history
c) we can try our best to preserve what we think we know, and to heck with new knowledge, discoveries or advancements
d) let us make our best efforts to both understand and preserve what we can, as best we can first, then continue to appropriately verify, refine and innovate, both for the sake of further advancements and in order to preserve and continue building on past knowledge now and in future generations

Some things, when lost, are rediscovered or reinvented. Yet there are at least some things, once lost, which may never be found again. Or which take too much time and trouble to bother trying. It's ironic, in a way, that despite all mankind's intelligence and advancements - and in some cases perhaps even because of it - we can't even know what we're missing.

I don’t much believe in perfect solutions, though I’m avidly in favor of optimized and balanced ones. Fortunately, there are many of us, and of different sorts and inclinations, to pick different poisons. This may be nature's way of helping to balance the otherwise competing dynamics of preservation and innovation. I believe this applies to Wing Chun as much as it does other areas of knowledge, expertise, and technology.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

P.S. As regards Wing Chun, on the balance scale of preservation and innovation, bet you can’t guess where my inclinations lie, LOL.

PaulH

01-21-2004, 04:37 PM

Kathy,

Let me "C"...Yo "C" You'll "C". "C"? "C"?

Regards,
PH

P.S. I "C" you "D" from "C". Okay, new I "D"

Zhuge Liang

01-21-2004, 04:39 PM

Hi KJ,

Excellent post. Not surprisingly, I find that your thoughts resonates most with mine. Can I learn from those who came before me, with their history, principles, and concepts? Yes. Can I learn from modern science and modern discoveries? Also yes.

I can't discount the reality of modern science and the benefits derived from it, but neither can I discount the wisdom of many centuries past, which brought us to where we are today.

Regards,
Alan

Phenix

01-21-2004, 05:12 PM

[ by trying to prove who was first and were things come from , thus drawing attention to this or that line , what is that if not a attempt to be seperate ? ] ------

The dictator uses the proof of he is a king's son to seperate his own identity and boss others.

The humanistic scholars uses the same proof to understant the evolution and justified king is also human and equally as a member of nature.

Seperate or integrated, that depent on who one is. Strange isnt it. Pual, who are you? :D

PaulH

01-21-2004, 05:24 PM

Hendrik,

It would be a colossal mistake if Ernie and me are one and inseparable! We're alike but not that close! Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

Phenix

01-21-2004, 05:37 PM

The modern technology which based on fear, in adequate, prepare for the worst....compatition to win.. is just a struggling and suffering platform.

Buy one's own jet plane and see if that bring a stop to the process of " plaining, preparing, proving, fear in adequate" loop in one's mind.
and will one become more trusting others the more one goes up hight, or become more alone and seperated from the people and nature?

When life take a pattern

From:

Vision: kick the axx of Ging
Mission: Revolution to kill as much Ging
Value: Dxxm to Ging. the hxxx with you as soon as I beat you.
Goals: create the best technics to kill Ging

to

Vision : beating all others in Wallstreet in an effortless way
Mission: I am the greatest hero to screw up everyone's economy
Value: DXXM to you, the hxxx with you as soon as I make my bucks.
Goals: set everything up so that I can control Wallstreet.

Is that still life? What will it contribute to the world?
Destruction... no one win when both destroy. And disregards of what technology one has, it doesnt matter, when one no longer value life.

And what contribute to this? THOUGHTS. The thought of superiority, the thought of seperate one with others, the thought of the hxxx with you as soon as I am ok.... a seperation between one, with others , and nature.

Some never learn, There is no Sunshine and vast sky there but a life fill with cloud and darkness.