Why the fear?

[Ray Pina]

I suggested earlier in the week that "traditional" martial arts in China only had the front kick ... of course, I was ridiculed.

I also pointed out that "traditional" shoalin monks today often pose standing ontop of grave stone in Shaolin for videos and magazine shoots.... does that look like the actions of a legitament monk?

But my real argument is this: There was a treasure of martial arts in China before the invention of forms, which, some argue ,was created purposely by an emperor (forget the name) to slowly fade out the importance of combat and begin shifting the focus to forms and lifting, ect.

Belive this or not -- not sure that I do 100% nor do I care. What I care about is the fear expressed here as soon as someone suggests something different than what one has come to believe about their art or other arts.

I'm sure at one time -- going back -- all their was were a few simple swings and one or two blocks, a stick and a stone. Is this "traditional"? Personally, I don't care for traditional -- I consider it an antique. You don't show off your computer from 10 years ago do you? Why show off old technology. Things change.

I don't like the "traditional" round house kick, traditional in today's terms. Most use it as a long range weapon but they leave themself exposed standing on one foot.

Our thinking is that fists are for fighting, kicks are for kill. For some the kick is used differently.

This is my understanding. Share yours with me and I swear I won't be scared. I'll be open, willing to see and try to understand.

It comes down to kicking and punching. You choose the method that works for you, combine it with stratagy and some balls and hope for the best.
........

Everyone knows Karate has the high roundhouse kick, right? I studied Isshin-Ryu for over 10 years. Not one form has a high-roundhouse kick. Almost all low, horse stance tension. Lot's of front kicks. Maybe -- MAYBE -- a sidekick but can't recall with certainly ... that was a long time ago. Goes from basic blocks and punches, to more advanced, to tension work to weapons..... Isshin-Ryu, along with other Okinawan styles, supposedly come from Southern China .... also, low stance, hard styles.... I believe these were added when they say they worked for TKD or Tai Boxers..... Note: I didn't say these don't work. I said they weren't in the original recipe... find me footage of a master of any ORIENTAL style, using a high round house kick.

[apoweyn]

Efist,

First things first: You're playing dirty pool. By insinuating that anyone that takes exception to your statements is doing so out of fear. If you're really looking for an open discussion, you're getting off on the wrong foot.

If you ever wonder why people react to you badly, it's because of things like this. They come off as elitism dressed up as philosophical fervor. People often disagree because of legitimate belief. Not fear.

Second, in five years of studying taekwondo, I didn't do a single form that included a round kick. But we know that taekwondo includes a round kick, yes? So, clearly, the sum total of that style was not reflected in its forms. Isn't it possible that other styles share that condition?


Stuart B.

[lkfmdc]

Dude, apparently your experience is EXTREMELY LIMITED. All you can site is Wing Chun, Southern Mantis and Hsing Yi..

Your comments on Hung Ga are, brace yourself, WRONG :p

Fuk Fu Kyuhn has a side kick, always has. Lau Ga Kyuhn has a Jaat Teui, an inverse side kick to the knee.

You are in NYC, ever heard of Chiu Luen? Seven Star Mantis has Baai Myuhn Teui, a round kick to the body. They have it in MANY of their forms. Calling Chiu Luen a fake? Heh heh, I hope not!!!

Ever seen Tibetan White Crane? Pek Gwa? Ba Ji? Mok Ga? Choy Lay Fut? Mizhong Pai? Long Fist?

Just face it, you are incorrect, you make blanket statements made upon a very limited knowledge

[Merryprankster]

They come off as elitism dressed up as philosophical fervor. People often disagree because of legitimate belief. Not fear.

Replace philosophical fervor with "slack jawed, empty eyed nearly religious fanatacism," and you'd be nearer the mark.

You're fighting in the King of San Da tournament in NY right? Learn from it. Best advice you'll ever get.

[apoweyn]

Replace philosophical fervor with "slack jawed, empty eyed nearly religious fanatacism," and you'd be nearer the mark.

Meh. You're just disagreeing with me out of fear.

[Merryprankster]

After the severe beating I took at your hands two weeks ago Friday, you may be right

[Ray Pina]

I apologize. My experience is limited. It's impossible to study everything. I only studied Hung Gar for 3 or 4 years -- I did have Lau Gar though and Gun Ji Fook Fu. I only remember Tornado kicks and low inside, outside cresent kicks.

I have forgotten, or replaced most of what I have learned having fallen in love with Hsing-I, which has one kick. I can admit when I am wrong.

Enjoy the laughs at my expense.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
After the severe beating I took at your hands two weeks ago Friday, you may be right

Unless it was Freaky Friday, I think you got that backward. I'm still pulling your handwraps our of my inner ear.

[lkfmdc]

Fuk Fu Kyuhn - Gwa Choih (back fist), Tung Choih (reverse punch) 3 times, turn around Deng Jeung (propping palm), step forward, Tai Jaang (upward elbow) Deng Jaang (propping elbow) Liu Yaam Jau (tiger claw to groing) Gwa Choih

Jump back, Kiuh Sau (bridge arm), then depending upon your lineage either a Tung Choih or Fu Jau into either another Liu Yaam Jau or hook hand (Ngau Sau) - THEN SIDE KICK

Lau Ga - Seung Jyu Geng Sau (double forearm blocks), Maahn Fu Deng Saan (double tiger claws at two levels), Nau Mah Got Jeung (cross step away with hook palm block), spin around and Ngau Sau Biu Jeung (hook hand and spear palm), then INVERSE SIDE KICK

It's been a while, about 18 years, but I still remember my sequences....

[Merryprankster]

No laughs bro--It's just that when you come on here, you write as if what you are doing is a mystic revelation.

It's a bit tough to take.

On the other hand, I'm a sarcastic son of a ***** and I get on people's nerves too. :D

[Unmatchable]

http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/journal/03_pic7.gif

Here is the article t go along with the pic:
http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/journal/article01.html

[rogue]

10 years of Isshinryu and you don't know the difference between the sport kicks for competitions and the core kicks used for self defense? Shimabuku laid out the main kicks for fighting in the lower body excercises and the only thing close to a normal roundhouse is a side leaning front kick.

[red5angel]

I'm sure at one time -- going back -- all their was were a few simple swings and one or two blocks, a stick and a stone. Is this "traditional"? Personally, I don't care for traditional -- I consider it an antique. You don't show off your computer from 10 years ago do you? Why show off old technology. Things change.

I personally don't get this argument about traditional being old and the "new" way of doing things. It's like before America came a long, or the Japanese or the brazilians, or the russians, no one knew how to throw a punch, or kick at different angles, or grapple on the ground. What is that? It's like back in the day, the fights in China actually did look like pose downs with accompanying bruises and spitting of blood (Thank you Shaw Bros for ruining my view of kungfu). I'm sure over time things have been gradually improved from time to time but as people like to point out a lot, the human body is only capable of doing so many things. Training has changed a lot, but the concepts, goals and results are similar, but refined. Of course you work with what you have. Otherwise what's the big freakin deal? My guess is everything everyone does is probably old news? Well, except for MP sticking his wraps in Apoweyns ear, but hey, whatever gets you the win, or makes Ap look funny...

[apoweyn]

but hey, whatever gets you the win, or makes Ap look funny...

That covers such a lot of ground. :)

[Mutant]

EF, are you fighting at the san da event next wkend? i saw the name 'Ray' in one of the match-ups and wondered whether that was you.

[backbreaker]

Read those articles Unmatchable. You're starting to understand a little bit. I don't know why they kicked me out of there. I have no idea. I say basically( not totally, but almost) the same things as
that article. I guess they're too interested in kali, JKD, Scars, and reality street defense:rolleyes:
Taijiquan has side kicks , heel kicks, Tornado kicks ( both lotus type , and a axe kick types), as well as many kinds of jumping kicks , stomping , and both low sweeps and head high kicks. They use the knee , shin , instep , heel , anything I can think of

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I don't know why they kicked me out of there. I have no idea. I say basically( not totally, but almost) the same things as
that article.


Ok..you were kicked out because you started spamming the board after no one believed that your teacher, Al Colangelo, was denied entry to the UFC because of his 'Poison Hands' techniques.

If that makes us 'Gracie Lovers', let us be.

Any complaints?...use you PM button

[backbreaker]

I don't spam. WTF? Al Colangelo is not my teacher. I've never met him and what you said shows you have no real legitimate answers

[Felipe Bido]

;) Uh, yeah...if you say so...

[backbreaker]

Oh yeah , I don't wanna nut ride someone, but that guy could take out anyone on your board. Again , what I talk about are things much more important to internal arts than sparring is sooooooo important all day long. Talk about internal gongfu for once

I saw a show on tv other day about brandon lee and it showed Dan Inasanto training. Several people I was watching it with thought it was hilarious.

[Felipe Bido]

Ok..an honest question:

Was he really denied entry to the UFC because of his Poison Hands techniques?

[backbreaker]

I have no idea. I get the impression he is not interested in fame or money. I'd guess he hasn't tried. I don't know

[Felipe Bido]

Cool.

Well, if he didn't, he should really sue the guys from Inside Kung Fu Magazine, because that's what it said on his adds.

[backbreaker]

My idea, would be apply to a minor leage or amateur fighting event with all the video and stats you would need to provide, and say you have the power to knockout most fighters. If they don't accept you , don't beleive you , or say you need more fight experience, well I could see that happening maybe. Sometimes fighters back out and the promoter just needs somebody, anybody. I don't know

[backbreaker]

I can't remember the adds. The UFC rules have changed over time , and at one point some stuff was banned. What did it say exactly?

[backbreaker]

Okay , I have theMay 1999 issue of Inside Kungfu with the advertisement. There is no mention of UFC at all. It says " handle or even KO NHB grapplers who shoot in at 6'3 285lbs . Benching 500 pounds". " Break all holds". No mention of UFC or poison hand.

[Felipe Bido]

Here it is:

From Inside Kung Fu, January 1995. (Randy Williams, a WC fighter is on the cover. Page 112:

"CAN ANYONE DEFEAT INTERNAL PENTJAK-SILAT?

- After the experts studied with Bruce Lee, Jiu Jitsu, Muy (sic) Thai, Nin-Jitsu, etc, they agree that internal Pentjak Silat is the deadliest of them all. Why?

Internal fighters do not end up on the ground...the enemy does. Grab a leg-Get knocked out! . Master Teacher Al Colangelo, the foremost internal authority & fighter in the U.S. won the first full contact Silat Championship (5 KO's) in the presence of master Wetzel and sons. He is recognized in over 14 countries for training fighters who routinely knock out street attackers, pro fighters and al jiu-jitsu challengers...(...) His (sic) was denied entry into the UFC due to his use of "Poison Hands" strikes

===

Someone wrote them a letter, which I'll post next.

[Felipe Bido]

This is the letter:

From Inside Kung Fu Magazine, February 1995, page 110:

Open-door Policy


IT WAS RECENTLY brought to my attention that Al Colangelo, a practicioner of Pentjak Silat, has announced in his advertisement for pentjak silat videos (Inside Kung Fu, December 1994) that he was denied entry into the UFC due to his use of 'Poison Hands' strikes.
This is simply not true. Mr. Colangelo has never applied to the UFC and has never been turned down for "poison hand" stikes or for any other reason.
It is the goal of the UFC to find the best and toughest fighters in the world. All styles and fighters are encouraged to apply; no techniques are outlawed and al applications will be reviewed and given serious consideration.
We look forward to hearing from Mr. Colangelo

Arthur Davie
Torrance, CA

====

[Felipe Bido]

Check my PM. I don't want to hijack this thread more than it's already been :D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I saw a show on tv other day about brandon lee and it showed Dan Inasanto training. Several people I was watching it with thought it was hilarious.

And what was hilarious about it?

[red5angel]

And what was hilarious about it?

My guess is he was practicing the deadly Wrap in th Ears technique....

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel


My guess is he was practicing the deadly Wrap in th Ears technique....

I'm sorry. You're going to have to speak up. :)

[Royal Dragon]

It is the goal of the UFC to find the best and toughest fighters in the world. All styles and fighters are encouraged to apply; no techniques are outlawed and al applications will be reviewed and given serious consideration.
We look forward to hearing from Mr. Colangelo

Reply]
Isn't this the same competition that won't let a standing fighter kick the living Sh!t out of a downed fighter, and also has groin strikes, throat grabs, and eye shots illegal?

Just curious.

[Vash]

Yep, that's the same organization.

They just understand that the techniques of karate, kung fu, and associated arts are far too deadly for the ring. :eek:

[Stranger]

At the time when this Davie letter was submitted to IKF the only rules in the UFC were no biting and no eye-gouging. You were allowed to attack the groin, kick a downed opponent, grab the throat, and attack the eyes with fingers as long as you weren't gouging.

The two rules were required by the insurance companies covering the fights not the promoters.