I hate wannabe thugs [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 08:40 AM

I saw someone get mugged last night right near my girl's place. We were sitting on her couch watching TV when I heard something outside (you know when you've been around a bunch of fights when you recognize the sounds of just there feet shuffling). Went to the window, saw four males three of which were starting to surround and corner the fourth. That fourth guy started yelling at them he didn't have any money, realized he was getting mugged and told my girl to call the cops. During this process I grabbed her keys and went downstairs. Walked down the street to see the three of them stomping this guy out in a gangway.... Didn't want to rush all three of them so I went to my car which was right there, opened up the back, and almost grabbed my sword, geez I really wanted to chase them down with that thing, but realized how much trouble I could get in if I had to use it. Grabbed a pair of gloves in case I had to help the guy if he was bleeding, turned and saw those three guys walking back up the street. The guy was still lying in the gangway when my girl motioned from her window to come up stairs, ran up there grabbed her phone, and talked to the police for a second while I went off looking for this guy who got beatdown. To no avail. Guy was gone, took the cops about 25 min. to get there, talked to them, but they couldn't find him either. Kind of sucks too because I could still ID the wannabe thugs, but without that other guy, they said they really can't do nothing.

Glad it wasn't me, that guy must be hating life right now. Wish it was only one person and there was some way to know they didn't have a knife or anything, I would have loved to box one of those posers..... especially since I ended up grabbing my padded ski gloves.

kungfudude14895

01-14-2004, 08:52 AM

dont you carry anything else besides a sword? i mean you could have sparred them, id say that would even out the odds.

rogue

01-14-2004, 08:52 AM

Didn't want to rush all three of them so I went to my car which was right there, opened up the back, and almost grabbed my sword, geez I really wanted to chase them down with that thing, but realized how much trouble I could get in if I had to use it. Sounds like you may have been stalling. Were you doubting your physical skills? Good chance that they heard you open the car door and decided to move on, so the result was good and you get the win. What you may have done wrong is taking your eyes off the muggers and losing track of what they were doing. They could have seen you as someone ripe for a carjacking.

I would have loved to box one of those posers Sorry NP, but with that mindset you were much better not getting involved.

Judge Pen

01-14-2004, 08:55 AM

I hear what you are saying. Too bad you didn't have a short stick in your car; that would have been easier to justify. If CO is like Tennessee you have the right to use reasonable force in the defense of third-parties, but know that you will always be challenged on your decision later (especially if you hurt one of these punk thugs). :rolleyes: That's sad to because we should be able to help another person out when they are in trouble without worrying about the legal ramnifications of your good deed.

Shaolindynasty

01-14-2004, 09:07 AM

Hmmmm......Beat a guy down? They don't sound like "wannabe posers" to me, they sound like real thugs.

It's better just not to get involved in business that isn't yours. Especially seeing as how the "victum" didn't stick around you don't know what all that was really about.

Chasing them with a swaord is a horrible idea, think about if any of them had firearms.

You could have gotten shot because some crackhead owed guys money and couldn't pay.

That's why I stick to my own business

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 09:13 AM

Sounds like you may have been stalling.
A bit... but it was mostly trying to assess the situation.

Were you doubting your physical skills?

Against three guys, all about the same size as me, without knowing if they had a weapon, yeah, I was doubting I was superman at the time.

Sorry NP, but with that mindset you were much better not getting involved.

And I didn't.... with what mindset, I don't quite understand.. I'm pizzed I saw that go down, tell me you wouldn't like to square up with someone like that one on one after you see them be such a punk.

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 09:18 AM

First thing, can you guys read.. I didn't get my sword.. I realized it was a bad idea.. I think reading comp 101 is in order for some of you.. thank you for the masters of the obvious.

They don't sound like "wannabe posers" to me, they sound like real thugs.

wanna be in the sense that this was something that is just ultimately going to make them think they are tough.. but it was three on one..

Whats up with all you guys and "crack heads"...

It was three of them mugging someone walking down the street eating sushi.

they were looking for cash, to do what, maybe by a bag of weed or Yay.... not the point.

That's why I stick to my own business :rolleyes:

MasterKiller

01-14-2004, 09:24 AM

Was the sword live?

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 09:44 AM

No but it has weight (you've held that one). Combat steel, not live, just heavy (somewhere around 3lbs if memory serves me correctly).

MasterKiller

01-14-2004, 09:54 AM

I remember it. You could certainly put a lump on somebody with it.

You probably did the smartest thing. Let them know you are there to deter their behaviour and stay out of the way in case the shlt hits the fan.

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 10:08 AM

precicely...
Thnks MK.

oh and if anyone wants to know, you can see the sword in question in the Jan/Feb issue of KFTC on page 97... it is in my hand.

Oso

01-14-2004, 10:21 AM

NP, the only thing I'll suggest would be to set yourself up with a better weapon if you feel like you would want to act in a future situation. A collapsable baton if you can use a short stick is a good choice in that you can keep it concealed till you need it. Immediately showing a weapon can escalate the situation to a firearm which would suck.

Keeping a large can of pepper spray available could be a good idea. Something with the capacity to deal with multiple opponents.

IMO, a short stick in one hand and 16oz of pepper spray in the other would be a nice combination to handle multiple opponents as long as you had good tactical awareness of the situation.

It's always a tough call to help in a situation like that. Glad you were safe at the end of it.

red5angel

01-14-2004, 10:21 AM

It's better just not to get involved in business that isn't yours.

First of all, that's just a fukked up attitude. Someones getting their ass kicked and all you wanna do is sit back and let it happen? :rolleyes:

NP, sounds like you couldn't do a whole lot. You could have charged in and tried to take 3 guys, but the odds are sorely against you. If you had a stick, maybe...

You could have yelled that you were calling the cops, that may have helped? Especially from your window.

All in all not grabbing the sword was the right choice I think.

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 10:30 AM

You could have yelled that you were calling the cops, that may have helped? Especially from your window.

I did yell out the window, should have added that in there. They ended up in a gangway (a walkway between buildings) anyway, which I think they may have thought they would be ok in because it wasn't like right out in the open any more.

Ralphie

01-14-2004, 10:32 AM

NP,
If you did Krotty or TKD, you would have been able to bring out the bricks, break them, and had glow in the dark Nun Chucks in your back pocket. This would surely have killed the muggers on sheer fear of your display of skill. Also, a good idea is to carry or simply wear a headband around with you at all times. Your teacher's kung fu is obviously no good, or he would have taught you how to blindly attack 3 unknown assailants. Not having been there, I can obviously detect your mindset, and the events as they unfolded. The mistake you made was not doing a back flip into a butterfly kick into the center of the 3, and am surprised you didn't get carjacked because you failed to do this simple and well known strategy when defending a stranger against 3 street thugs. The only way to get your honor, and the honor of your dojo back, is to set out each night and engage in brawls with street gangs down in 5 points.

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 10:41 AM

is to set out each night and engage in brawls with street gangs down in 5 points.

lol, for those of you that don't know, 5 points is concidered our bad part of town... not that it is too bad, but whatever... Watch the cryps episode of South Park.

LOL, this was in Capital Hill, 10th and Corona to be precise.

rogue

01-14-2004, 10:45 AM

And I didn't.... with what mindset, I don't quite understand.. I'm pizzed I saw that go down, tell me you wouldn't like to square up with someone like that one on one after you see them be such a punk. From your story IMO you didn't really want to get involved, your mindset was to avoid confronting the thugs (smart) and avoid attending the victim. There is a lot of wishing, would ofs, almost grabbing, second guessing and turning away from the scene before you. Pretty normal reactions and I'd guess I'd do most of the same things. Hell I don't even think I would have thought about fighting them and would have kept a safe distance and just yelled that the cops were on the way. The one big problem I see is that you almost stepped into the situation but couldn't think of what to do, and that's what most dangerous to you. You seem to have had conflicting thoughts between wanting to help and avoiding the situation. That's normal behavior. Cops, firemen and rescue workers overcome that conflict by their training. I would have reacted in much the same way but it's a reaction and conflict we as martial artists have to be aware of in ourselves.

rogue

01-14-2004, 10:55 AM

Ralphie it has nothing to do with honor, but it does have to do with walking into a situation half ass and getting hurt. Basics of self defense is awareness, losing track of the muggers is poor awareness. norther practitioner may have saved the guys life just by opening his car door and making the muggers know that they weren't alone anymore. What would you have done?

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by red5angel

You could have yelled that you were calling the cops, that may have helped? Especially from your window.

probably wouldn't have helped. I saw a guy beating a girl outside my window, and my wife yelled that she was calling the cops. He merely said "here, you can use my cell phone" and proceeded with his business. When he saw me running towards him, he ran away.

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 11:20 AM

FWIW, I think you did right by not getting involved directly, considering the odds. Three assailants, and you had no idea whether or not they were armed. had you gone to help and and gotten KTFO yourself, then you would need someone to help you both. The one mistake I think you made was taking your eyes off the guy.

Ralphie

01-14-2004, 11:35 AM

What would you have done?

It depends...I prolly would not have acted as NP did, but that's because I'm not him, and I wasn't there. The ideal would have been to call the cops, they show up 1 min later, and arrest the guys. Another would have been call the cops, go down with a baseball bat or staff, sneak up on them, and bash away. Another would to be to lure them close to my house and shoot them with my .357. We have make my day laws in Colorado, and that is perfectly legal. Another would be to make an obscene amount of noise from a safe place to scare them off, or if it draws them to my house see above. Is awareness and situational training beneficial? Yes. Will the reaction be different when the situation actually occurrs? Yes.

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 11:37 AM

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 11:41 AM

LOL@ cops showing up 1 min later!

<public_enemy>

get up an get, get, get down/
9-1-1 is a joke in yo town...

</public_enemy>

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 11:51 AM

I had to go attend to the fact my girl had no idea what was going on, and was trying to get a cop there..... I needed to talk to the police officer on the phone, that whole thing took about 45 seconds, and when I looked last the person looked motionless on the ground, the three assailants were only 25 feet away at the time too, I didn't want them to come back.

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 11:55 AM

Also, I wouldn't call them wannabe thugs right off the bat. Attacking in groups is the typical thug MO. That's how they operate. surround you, hit you from the blind side, if you are wearing a big shirt or coat, pull it over your head, then beat the snot outta you.

Well, yeah, sorta... I'm more reffering to the I wanna be hard/ be in a gang, in a small city with little claims to make types.... I just had the overwellming fealing that they were doing this to prove something to themselves (that I also think they were doing the exact oposite) to get some street cred.

Unmatchable

01-14-2004, 12:01 PM

You grabbed a pair of gloves in case you had to fight them in a streetfight? And you didn't do anything when they just walked away?

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 12:06 PM

gloves are for protection, most likely. If he had to touch the guy for some reason, he didn't want the guy's blood all over him, as he had no clue if he had any diseases. They weren't for fighting the other guys.

Unmatchable

01-14-2004, 12:06 PM

Everybody does what they have to to survive. As my thug friend says. Maybe they needed the money badly for some other reason? I mean how many people have the balls to assault some random guy on the street and steal his stuff, and risk chance of few years in prison? They usually have a good reason for crime.

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 12:07 PM

Unmatchable

01-14-2004, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar
gloves are for protection, most likely. If he had to touch the guy for some reason, he didn't want the guy's blood all over him, as he had no clue if he had any diseases. They weren't for fighting the other guys.

I get your point, but I thought he got them before the thugs left?

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 12:15 PM

I did, thats what I grabbed when I went to my car, but I didn't have the intention of using them for fighting, is was incase the guy was bleeding... thats what I was going to get from my car.. they were under my training bag in the back, which my sword was on top of, thats why I had it in my hand initially, then the quick thought of dam, I've got a sword in my hand went through my head, but I just grabbed the gloves, waited a second to let the guys walk past, ran upstairs, grabbed the phone, then the guy was gone.

CaptinPickAxe

01-14-2004, 12:37 PM

That sux NP. Too bad my big Texan ass wasn't up there, I know how you coloradians are shorter than us:D

I have to say I'm surprised about such a thing happening up there. When I was there everyone was so relaxed and non-aggressive. People wouldn't even hold eye contact with me, shake, or my homie Pablo. I have to say I kinda felt like the don. But you did the right thing in a situation like that. Better to hear about you seeing a dude get stomped than you telling a story about how you were stomped by some thugs. You should buy a black-jack...that would of handled the situation nicely.

rogue

01-14-2004, 12:48 PM

NP, What do those Colo cops do with all that spar time they have? Jeeze 24 minutes. Next time tell the dispatcher that the owner of the local Krispy Kreme is getting mugged in front of your house.

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 01:09 PM

LOL.. yeah.. well, the police station is about a 3 minute car ride... for me

I called, and reported a mugging in progress too, not a mugging that happend already.

rogue

01-14-2004, 02:07 PM

NP, One reason for my questions and wild ass conclusions (I wasn't there and I'm not you) is that I'm reassing the worth of self defense training. The stalling and wanting to get involved but never getting to it was pointed out to me by one of my instructors awhile back. I used the more of them than me, I need to find a weapon and maybe they have hidden weapons arguments and he just shot them down. I either had to commit to being involved in the situation or not get involved at all. At least for me the scenerio was someone I knew.

Now I have a friend who has asked me to help him with some self defense/ family protection seminars, which means people not even commited to training on a regular basis but who think they want to do something in a bad situation. If most martial artists and I include myself in this group, don't think that on the street they can handle two or three bad guys even with surprise on their side and doubt their skills, what good can a soccer mom or dad do with a few tricks.

Also as martial artists where does self defense training fit in if we're doubtful we can make it work on the street?

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Unmatchable
Everybody does what they have to to survive. As my thug friend says. Maybe they needed the money badly for some other reason? I mean how many people have the balls to assault some random guy on the street and steal his stuff, and risk chance of few years in prison? They usually have a good reason for crime.

thug friend? the dude you posted that pic of?

Anyway, It's often not even that crucial. you've got something I want, I take it. People don't get robbed of their kicks because a guy desperately needs shoes on his feet.

It's just another lifestyle, albeit a bad one. To the uninitiated, it seems like easy money. You have money, I take it from you, sell drugs, steal cars, etc. When you think about all of the repercussions, you see it's not that easy.

Also, the incident coulda been a gang initiation. I think those are going on in my city right now. GD's have been breaking into hispanic people's houses and robbing them. Bad thing is that latino gangs have been on the rise. It prolly won't be too long before a gang war starts between them.

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 02:14 PM

Good post, I agree. The thing is as a martial artist, I think I'm at least somewhat aware of the way things could go down, it is a disadvantage of people who haven't trained.

Get bopped good by a newbie who lands a shot or two comes to mind as a wakeup for some people.. but too many still pass it off as a "lucky" shot.. it may have been, but it got you.

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 02:20 PM

check this out - this is a joint by Jay-Z called D'Evils. (the evils) It kinda illustrates what I am talking about.

============================================

This **** is wicked on these mean streets
None of my friends speak
We're all trying to win, but then again
Maybe it's for the best though, 'cause when they're seeing too much
You know they're trying to get you touched
Whoever said illegal was the easy way out couldn't understand the
mechanics
And the workings of the underworld, granted
Nine to five is how to survive, I ain't trying to survive
I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot
Life ills, poison my body
I used to say '**** mic skills,' and never prayed to God, I prayed to
Gotti
That's right it's wicked, that's life I live it
Ain't asking for forgiveness for my sins, endz
I break bread with the late heads, picking their brains for angles on
all the evils that the game'll do
It gets dangerous, money and power is changing us
And now we're lethal, infected with D'Evils...

We used to fight for building blocks
Now we fight for blocks with buildings that make a killing
The closest of friends when we first started
But grew apart as the money grew, and soon grew black-hearted
Thinking back when we first learned to use rubbers
He never learned so in turn I'm kidnapping his baby's mother
My hand around her collar, feeding her cheese
She said the taste of dollars was sh!tty so I fed her fifties

About his whereabouts I wasn't convinced
So I kept feeding her money 'til her **** started to make sense
Who could ever forsee, we used to stay up all night at slumber parties
now I'm trying to rock this ***** to sleep
All the years we were real close
Now I see his fears through her tears, know she's wishing we were still
close
Don't cry, it is the (beat?)
In time, I'll take away your miseries and make 'em mine, D'Evils...

My flesh, no nigga could test
My soul is possessed by D'Evils in the form of diamonds and lexuses
The exorcist, got me doing skits like Homie
You don't know me, but the whole world owe me
Strip!
Was thought to be a pleasant guy all my ****ing life
So now I'm down for whatever, ain't nothing nice
Throughout my junior high years it was all friendly
But now this higher learning got the Remy in me
Liquors invaded my kidneys
Got me ready to lick off, mama forgive me
I can't be held accountable, D'Evils beating me down, boo
Got me running with guys, making G's, telling lies that sound true
Come test me, I never cower
For the love of money, son, I'm giving lead showers
Stop screaming
you know the demon said it's best to die
And even if Jehovah witness bare he'll never testify, D'Evils...

Shaolindynasty

01-14-2004, 02:24 PM

I don't think i have a bad attitude about not getting involved. You have no idea what was going on maybe the guy deserved the beatdown. If you NEED to do somthing you should just call the cops quietly and let them handle it.

To be honest if I was one of the "thugs" and you got me thrown in jail I would come back for you and everybody else in your building. That's why you make the call aynonomis

I know you didn't chase them with your (dull) sword:rolleyes:
I was just saying that is a bad idea. Look what happened to Alex Gong.

Protect yourself and the people you know.

Sheeesh does everybody in the MA world have a superhero complex?

norther practitioner

01-14-2004, 02:29 PM

Sheeesh does everybody in the MA world have a superhero complex?

No, but they also don't all have the dumb f*ck complex either...

dull sword, yes, but a big metal object as well.. you ever been hit with a stick, now imagine it has a handle and is made of steel...

:rolleyes:

Oh, and it is my business... I walk down that sidewalk prob. 5-8 times a week...
They guy was walking eating his sushi... I don't think he "deserved it"...

Shaolindynasty

01-14-2004, 02:41 PM

Thanks for calling me a dumbfuc but is that what superman or the flash would do?

Like I said if you felt the need to get involved call the cops and that's it.

I was comenting on how stupid it would have been for you to fight these guys yourself, you didn't so I don't know why you are upset.

BTW I have been in enough confrontations with multiple people(recieving and giving) to know once you hit one guy with your sword(assuming they realise it's not sharp) they are going to take it from you and beat the crap out of you.

Also how do you know he was walking down the street minding his own buisness? He could have known these guys or said somthing to them. If he mysteriously left after he was getting "mugged" and refused help etc. It makes me think somthing else was going on and he wasn't being "mugged"

rogue

01-14-2004, 03:07 PM

When I used the more of them than me, I need to find a weapon and maybe they have hidden weapons arguments my instructor tossed it back in my face by asking me what would I do if I was the one being attacked. Would I roll over because I didn't have a weapon, or was out numbered or if they were armed. Or would I fight back to win or escape anyway. How would I fight? A few jabs, dance around some or go full brutal? If you can't see yourself on the winning end of that scenerio helping someone else in NPs situation is going to stand a good chance of ending up bad.

It's not so much a superhero complex but one where we train to fight and most of us have some moral code that says mugging is wrong. I don't think any of us are training with the intent to be victims.

rubthebuddha

01-14-2004, 03:17 PM

not that NP needs more backup, but ...

NP -- you did right. first, call ze cops. second, see if there's an opportunity for you to actually help. three on one? not likely, but you keep checking, just in case, even if just to say you witnessed the big dude with the shaved head doing the kicking or whatever. if you can't stop a situation in progress, at least you be ready to help whatever local justice system you have as a witness. then, once the act is over, you need to be ready to render what medical attention you're able to give until those 24 minutes are up. who knows -- you putting pressure on a wound to slow the blood loss could be the difference between badness and worseness.

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Shaolindynasty
He could have known these guys or said somthing to them. If he mysteriously left after he was getting "mugged" and refused help etc. It makes me think somthing else was going on and he wasn't being "mugged"

I can see your point there, but there is also pride factor. You don't want to go to the hospital looking all bruised, as everyone will know you just got KTFO. I posted her about an incident last year where I stopped a paper boy from getting mugged. He did nothing - we saw the whole thing. Afterwards, when I talked t him, he said the guys just wanted his money. When the ambulance arrived, he refused help, even though he had blood running out of his eye. Getting beat down - especially in front of people - is embarassing.

Water Dragon

01-14-2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar

Also, the incident coulda been a gang initiation. I think those are going on in my city right now. GD's have been breaking into hispanic people's houses and robbing them. Bad thing is that latino gangs have been on the rise. It prolly won't be too long before a gang war starts between them.

ALKN? Cuidado mijo

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon

ALKN? Cuidado mijo

That was my first thought. I've got no confirmation though.

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 04:08 PM

I want to say I've seen a surenos tag on the expressway...I pass it every morning, so I'll check it tomorrow.

Gangsterfist

01-14-2004, 05:09 PM

After reading through all the posts I can say that I have had some similar experiences. Over this last summer about 7 months ago I saw a fight happen. It was early evening and I was having a beer with my roomate and his gf on our front porch. Three guys were fighting a fourth guy. The fourth guy pulled out a blade and started swinging wildly at them. I don't know what the fight was about but as soon as I saw the knife I wasn't getting involved. The three guys got him on the ground, disarmed him, and beat the wholy crap out of him to the point an ambulance had to come and pick him up. He was covered in blood and there was a pool of blood on the curb where he had gotten his head split. This happened about 15 to 20 feet in front of my house right on my street in pretty much broad day light. 3 on 1 is not a fair fight. The guy paniced pulled out a blade and tried to cut his attackers. I wasn't about to get near it.

So, I say you did the smart thing by not getting involved with out assessing the situation first. It seems to me like you didn't really have enough time to react to the situation. Though in real situations like that you really don't get time to think things out. In the situation I had within the first 20 seconds of the fight the guy pulled out a blade. I didn't know any of the people fighting and wasn't about to get sliced or stabbed trying to break it up.

SevenStar

01-14-2004, 10:51 PM

I took the expressway to class tonight and looked at the tag - it's the surenos 13. Two guys in my class are S.W.A.T and another is ATF, so I talked to them. The ATF guy confirmed that both the surenos 13s and the LK are here.

The latino community is getting shafted both ways, because they are getting attacked by the GDs, and the surenos are extorting money outta them for protection.

PT-Kali

01-15-2004, 12:57 AM

I guarantee my Spyderco isn't dull, and with three on one it's sushi time...legally, even :)

I feel for ya NP, I think you did the right thing....

you could have just kicked back on the couch and flipped through the channels, what people aren't seeing is that you did SOMETHING, and it's better than NOTHING...and in my opinion, doing nothing is pure unaldulterated cowardice

rogue

01-15-2004, 08:33 AM

PT how do you know that would be your reaction to NPs situation? There have been situations (fights, accidents) that I've willingly walked into and did something useful, others where I've avoided it altogether and still others where I walked in and couldn't figure out what to do but I was still in the middle of the situation. So what determines a course of action for us? Is it training, brainwashing, commonsense or something else?

and in my opinion, doing nothing is pure unaldulterated cowardice Doing nothing is doing something and given certain cirumstances may be the best thing to do. What if a person is more brave than effective and getting involved but failing makes it worse for the victim?

PT-Kali

01-15-2004, 10:42 AM

Rogue- I don't mean to personally attack you, I don't even know you, BUT since you replied directly to my post with direct questions to myself, hear goes:

a) Nothing you say will change my mind. As quoted, "and in my opinion, doing nothing is pure unaldulterated cowardice"
That's what I believe, sorry if my beliefs don't run in line with yours....

b) "What if a person is more brave than effective and getting involved but failing makes it worse for the victim?"

what if, what if, what if, what if, SORRY but in my experience the moment you DO hesitate with a "what if", especially if it's you being attacked, is the moment you're most likely to get your a$$ handed to you..."what if" comments are usually reserved for cowards or pascifist.

If you're not that effective I suggest learning a martial art that will make you effective.

What if NP had done nothing, not even made it known that someone saw what was going on? They could have just killed the guy then, since there were no witnesses...

Frankly it's YOUR type of attitude that makes me sick, I believe that any true martial artist would have done something, and NP did what he thought was the best to do in that situation, and may have saved a life.

You don't have to be a hero by jumping in and whooping everyone's a$$, but by NP showing the guts he has by doing something (using his brain, not his muscle) ALSO shows that he has intestinal fortitude and a sense of honor to himself. I would be willing to bet that if he had done nothing at all and later had found out that the guy had been killed, it would be hard to live with himself and that would have haunted him for years to come.

That, my friend, is the difference from being a coward, and being brave.

Shaolindynasty

01-15-2004, 11:58 AM

Personally I see so much of this kind of $hit that I would be either fighting round the clock or in court everyday. I guess if it doesn't happen often around you you would feel compelled to involve yourself but I have to pick my battles.

With so much happening with my fam and friends I don't have time to jump into unkown situations.

NP- how do you know he was walking down the street eating sushi when you said in your first post you heard the sounds of a fight outside and that's what alerted you to the situation?

rogue

01-15-2004, 12:29 PM

Rogue- I don't mean to personally attack you, I don't even know you, BUT since you replied directly to my post with direct questions to myself, hear goes: Frankly I didn't take it personally or as an attack. I was asking how do you know what your reaction would be.

Frankly it's YOUR type of attitude that makes me sick, I believe that any true martial artist would have done something, and NP did what he thought was the best to do in that situation, and may have saved a life. LOL, better go back and read all of my posts. And if you read the third post of this thread you will read, "Good chance that they heard you open the car door and decided to move on, so the result was good and you get the win. "

what if, what if, what if, what if, SORRY but in my experience the moment you DO hesitate with a "what if", especially if it's you being attacked, is the moment you're most likely to get your a$$ handed to you..."what if" comments are usually reserved for cowards or pascifist.

If you're not that effective I suggest learning a martial art that will make you effective. I'd guess the majority here are cowards and pascifist then since "what if they were armed" has been mentioned as a reason not to engage. BTW I think I made the point about hesitating quite a few posts back. Personally from NPs story I think he did help the guy, I also think that he got off lucky as IMO he made some common mistakes that could have cost him.

PT-Kali

01-15-2004, 12:31 PM

Shaolindynasty- Sure, make yourself feel better....

the difference is the situation...so you mean to tell me that you see 3 on 1 muggings everyday? how about a gangrape everyday? or some jerk beating up his girlfriend? EVERY DAY???

maybe you see one on one fights everyday, sure, I can see not getting involved then, but an actual crime in progress? I think not...

I may get a lot of flack from this statement, but I PRAY for the day that someone wants to make me a victim, I LOOK for some punk that may want to mug me, it's something I train for everyday, and when I do train I visualize situationally, I don't just swish my knife through the air, in my mind it's a group of punks being slashed and stabbed; it may sound like a lot of bravado but it's how everyone should train, not just doing fancy movements in the air...

rogue

01-15-2004, 12:38 PM

Watch Deathwish and Taxi Driver 10 times in a row and then just go out and make yourself a target. Just be sure to hire the criminal and civil lawyers first.

Unmatchable

01-16-2004, 12:36 AM

During the Ming Dynasty which witnessed a boom in fighting arts, Qi Jiguang, a famous general who contributed much to the development of wushu theories unequivocally referred to mental training as part of wushu training and military drills in his writings. Emphasizing the need of courage for the making of a great fighter, he said, "A coward would crumble in the face of a fierce enemy even if he has very good skills." In his opinion, courage is something that can only be acquired through conscientious training.

I agree with this, because you can be the greatest fighter in the world but if you have no courage and street confidence and are mentally weak you can lose before the fight even begins, or run away, or lose to someone with no training at all that intimidates you and uses a weapon or finds or weak spot.

Another interesting thing about Qi Jiguang is The point about elaborate patterns and artificial flourishes, he commented on in the 1500s.

PT-Kali

01-16-2004, 01:07 AM

here we go with the what if's again...read above post concerning that...

LOL, and I just read your quote

"you'll send them below"? but what if....LOL

Seriously guys, we all have different viewpoints on this, it's OK, really!!!

CaptinPickAxe

01-16-2004, 01:11 AM

Are ya'll talking about burners?
My favorite graf artist has to be Doze Green. Its more art than graf though...no words.
I also like mear one...but the limp bizkit album cover sucked.

Doze Green:
www.thegiantpeach.com
under visual artist

Mear One:
www.mearone.com

I've been trying to start up in graf. You know, trying to live through the four elements:
1.Breaking
2.Emceeing
3.Bombing
4.DJing

Vash

01-16-2004, 08:23 AM

rogue

01-16-2004, 09:24 AM

Have you ever actually been in a fight?

but I PRAY for the day that someone wants to make me a victim, I LOOK for some punk that may want to mug me, Read into that what you will Vash.

I'm just glad that I'm a coward and don't have pray for such things.

Vash

01-16-2004, 10:08 PM

Indeed. Sooner a coward with both testicles still physically attached than a brave dumb@$$ with my stomach in my hand.

cerebus

01-16-2004, 11:04 PM

First thing, always call cops (they may be late, they may not, better at least try. If you do have to fight to help someone out the fact that you called the cops first will be legally helful).
Next, yell at the eejits! My own response in such situations is usually something like "You guys stay right there! The cops are on there way now! Don't you go anywhere!" If nothing else, there's a chance they'll take off just because you told them not to.
The next detail is the toughest of course. To jump in or not. Everyone has to make that decision for themselves. If you decide to risk it just realize they may be armed (knives, guns) even if you don't see any weapons. If you decide to go for it, take them by surprise. Take the first guy you attack out of the picture instantly (flying elbow to the back of the skull or football kick to his balls, which can be effectively done when running up behind him). Then don't stop 'til they're all down or running, you're down & out, or the cops are pulling you off them.
Difficult situation no matter what.

SanSoo Student

01-17-2004, 12:59 AM

PT-Kali, that bravado is not a bad thing to train with just don't carry it too far in training. In training you have to expect the worst, and try to rectify every situation you are thrown at. It is somewhat real and unreal in a classrom, because the environment is control. A real fight can happen anywhere...

On the issue of getting mugged by multiple attackers, since you made it apparent that you would be carrying a knife. "in my mind it's a group of punks being slashed and stabbed", that is correct and incorrect in both ways. The correct way is that bravdo may be the only thing that will stop you from hesitating, but it is not correct in the sense that they are only being slashed and stabbed. If a mugging ever has more than two people, you should just stop at "slashed and stabbed", you should be thinking I see a group of people that are waiting to be blinded, maimed, and stabbed in the throat. The only way I think (no experience in a group mugging, only bar fights) to survive in a group mugging is to fight to kill, and try to kill every m0therf*cker as fast as you can. PT, you weren't thinking in that extreme enough. You didn't say that you were going to try and gouge everyone's eyes, punch/stab them in the throat, step in the insteps, and knee them in the groin. Moves intended for serious injury and death.

Because everytime I had a scuffle, no matter how drunk I was, if I could stand up and walk straight, I would always try and hit first if I sense any dumb@ss wanted to start **** with me. And I had always thought with the same "bravado" PT had, its IMHO the single most effective way to eliminate the fear or act of hesitation. Because you want to hurt the person, your not afraid of anyone, and it boosts your confidence and since you have aldrenaline already. All lights are go and start hitting the mofo look at you funny.

SevenStar

01-17-2004, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by PT-Kali

I may get a lot of flack from this statement, but I PRAY for the day that someone wants to make me a victim, I LOOK for some punk that may want to mug me, it's something I train for everyday, and when I do train I visualize situationally, I don't just swish my knife through the air, in my mind it's a group of punks being slashed and stabbed; it may sound like a lot of bravado but it's how everyone should train, not just doing fancy movements in the air...

Nah, no flak. However, you should actually be praying that you make it out alive, not that someone will make you their victim. Do you train against multiple attackers weilding multiple weapons everyday? how realistically? Do any of them have guns? Just some things to think about.

Remember the story I alluded to earlier (the one I said I posted last year) where I stopped the guy who was mugging a paper boy? When he saw me and another guy running at him, he took off - luckily he didn't get away with anything. But he had friends with him in the car. Luckily, they didn't start shooting. However, the other guy that was there reached for his gun - with me being closer to the guy than he was, he may have shot me also. As luck would have it, he didn't have his gun on him that day - reached for it out of habit from drawing practice, I guess.

Anyway, those are things that can and do happen. People looking for trouble are usually prepared when doing so. It's not a barfight, it's a group of people who are out looking for trouble in the first place. It's likely that they won't be unarmed. If you bring a knife to a gunfight, who's on the ass end of the stick?

SevenStar

01-17-2004, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by cerebus
First thing, always call cops (they may be late, they may not, better at least try. If you do have to fight to help someone out the fact that you called the cops first will be legally helful).

The one thing about cops is that it's not their job to help diffuse the situation. It's their job to take care of things afterwards - arrests, paperwork, etc. If a cop saw a guy beating a girl right now, he doesn't HAVE to help her - it's not his job. The day we stopped that mugging, there was a cop across the street. He didn't even call an ambulance. when I went to talk to him, he told me that since we had already called 911, everything would be taken care of. Go figure.

rogue

01-17-2004, 09:01 AM

Most people don't learn how to insert themselves into a situation like NP described. There are things you can do to increase your chances of succesfully taking out the muggers while minimizing risk to yourself and the victim. But you have to train it in a alive (nod to MT) manner. I'm betting I can out shoot most gangsters but how do I use my gun in a situation like NPs, how do I use a knife and how do I use bare hands.

Unmatchable

01-17-2004, 12:55 PM

Physical training won't do shet. You need mental training. If you have low confidence, or are scared boy because you got bullied, or are a puzzy, you will never change unless people around you help you or you change your mentality. FIghting is 90% mental anyway, the winner of the fight is usually known before the fight even begins.

The people that win fights don't give a **** what happens, don't think ahead, don't worry about the consequences or what people will think of them or whether they will win or lose.

SevenStar

01-17-2004, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Unmatchable
Physical training won't do shet. You need mental training. If you have low confidence, or are scared boy because you got bullied, or are a puzzy, you will never change unless people around you help you or you change your mentality. FIghting is 90% mental anyway, the winner of the fight is usually known before the fight even begins.

The people that win fights don't give a **** what happens, don't think ahead, don't worry about the consequences or what people will think of them or whether they will win or lose.

you're partially right. Quite obviously, someone who has a similar killer instinct AND training will have the upper hand. The problem is that training MA is in some cases counter productive to fighting.

PT-Kali

01-17-2004, 04:24 PM

Guys- you're beating a dead horse here...some of what you are saying makes sense, but not for me. Yes, I am confident. Yes, I've factored in many what-if's, but the simple fact is you guys do not know me, and have NO clue what I've seen, done, been, or anything else.

If YOU want to see weaknesses in your system, abilities, confidence, whatever, that's fine. LOL but please, save all your trying to do the same to me, it's not going to work. Frankly, you guys seem to be kids by some of your posts, and have no real world experience. My suggestion is find a martial art that has more "martial" in it than "art". Or join the military like I did, go get some action, sh!t in your pants because of fear, sleep with the not knowing if you're going to wake up, get the adrenalin dump where everything is in slow motion and you can barely see but your eyes are wide open, etc.

I will NOT be a victim, plain and simple. That is not an option to me. Sorry you guys can't understand that.

The only easy day was yesterday.