Advice for Shaolin Longfist

[heelkick]

Hello and I'm new to the forum. I need some advice for this school that teaches longfist. My background is in kenpo but I wanted to learn kung fu so I made the switch. It seems that this school teaches in a way that I'm not used to or maybe they're not giving good instruction? That's where I can use some good advice.

The way things work here is that when you are a beginner, you are set aside from the rest of the class and taught the basics like kicks, punches so on and so forth. That's cool because there is slightly different mechanics with longfist as opposed to kenpo anyway. But after learning my first form which is called First Fist, I think I realized that after you start learning forms you are no longer pulled aside for instruction but you must then sit and observe and learn that way. In other words it appears that you learn your basic forms, present the forms in front of the class, then go sit down and watch the higher sash students do their forms, then you sit and watch as I mentioned before. From what I've seen no one is ever pulled to the side and actually taught.

How can you really learn this way? Is this the way CMA schools work or is this the correct way longfist is supposed to be taught?

[mickey]

Hello heelkick,

Interesting name for a Kenpo man. You have highlighted three needs:

1- The need to have your growth fostered with proper instruction.

2- The need to have the chance to develop those techniques learned from those lessons.

3- The need to be able to do the aforementioned during class time.

There is no wrong committed by asking for this. You can also let them know that you are seriously interested by asking if there is an accelerated program. If your needs are not accomodated, you can always move on.

In future, take the time to observe the school you plan to join. Ask questions beforehand. It can save you time, money, and heartache.

mickey

[heelkick]

mickey, thanx for the reply. That's correct, I don't believe it would be wrong to ask for those things but the main point I'm trying to assess is if they way they are teaching is proper. Maybe I didn't explain myself good enough in prior post. I'm not really seeking an accelerated program at all because I'm willing to take my time to learn. It's better to go slow and have good technique then try to rush thru and make bad habits.

mickey said:

"In future, take the time to observe the school you plan to join. Ask questions beforehand. It can save you time, money, and heartache."

That's very true. I visited quite a few schools and asked good questions but it never dawned upon me to ask if the forms were taught by having the student just sit and watch and then try to attempt the form. I mean, what I want to get at is if in your opinion or anyone elses, do you think that this is a good method to train students? What is the advantage of having students learn this way or should I say to whose advantage is this? Am I missing out on something here?

[NorthernShaolin]

heelkick,

Actually more info is needed here. It sounds like the room you are in is too small for the number of students.

Are there a lot of students such that there is not enough room for everyone to practice at the same time on the main teaching floor?

If I understand correctly, are you saying after your first form, you are to learn the next phase of lessons exclusively by sitting and observing older students and not by physically doing?

[heelkick]

NorthernShaolin said:


Are there a lot of students such that there is not enough room for everyone to practice at the same time on the main teaching floor?

Yes, the teaching floor is smaller than most I have seen and there is always a good number of students who attend each class so space could be an issue here. The way curriculum is taught here is that forms are done in groups of approximate or equal skill level.


If I understand correctly, are you saying after your first form, you are to learn the next phase of lessons exclusively by sitting and observing older students and not by physically doing?

Yes, that is what I'm saying. Beginners are given close attention only during First First and Second Fist forms. After you learn these basic forms, you do your forms with other students of same or approximate skill level in the center of training floor while other students sit and watch. When you are done you then go sit down and then watch students of higher skill level do their forms. It is during this time you are sitting and observing that you are supposed to learn additional and higher level forms. The Sifu will then start to call you up with the higher level students and you are supposed to follow along as much as possible, if you can not he will motion for you to sit down. I guess that means sit, observe and learn some more. So you are correct when you say that you learn by observing and then you try to execute form after that. It just seems like an entirely different way of teaching than I've ever seen. At no time after learning basic forms are students given additional individual instruction either, although I do see students asking other students for help after class ends.

[MasterKiller]

That is certainly an odd way to teach. What good are forms unless you teach the application of the movement?

[heelkick]

MasterKiller said:

That is certainly an odd way to teach. What good are forms unless you teach the application of the movement?

I forgot to mention that as well. At no time is there any communication bewteen Sifu and students doing forms. He just goes by a count and then you do the form to his count and finish. Isn't it better to have the practical application of the forms broken down and explained to the student? Like I said in my other post, the only real communication that happens is after class if you can find another or more advanced student who is willing to give you more insight. Is this what they mean when they say kung fu schools have more of a family type of atmosphere? Is the Sifu trying to get the students to help one another as a means of learning and teaching at the same time?

[mickey]

Hi heelkick,

The small room changes things a bit. I thought you did not have the chance to practice at all. I see the adjustment for space limitations. The "culture" of the school seems to be sink or swim-- but not in a harsh way. It is a reflection of the small space. A situation that can work for you. Some schools would not even allow you to watch the advanced students practice.

What you can do is work on your practice at home so that when you are in class your mind is clear enough to learn more. Don't make the mistake of letting your class time be the only time you train. Make your lessons yours.

Again, you need to assess your needs. Is this working for you? What can you do to make this work? Is it worth it? There must have been something there that attracted you. Is the feeling still there?


mickey

[heelkick]

mickey said:

What you can do is work on your practice at home so that when you are in class your mind is clear enough to learn more. Don't make the mistake of letting your class time be the only time you train. Make your lessons yours.

That's right, I always practice at home, but after I've been taught and shown the proper way. Let me ask you in your opinion, do you think that you could learn all the movements of different forms just by sitting, observing and then memorizing them so that you can practice them later? Obviously all his current students are doing just that, but maybe I will have to consider if this school is for me. As far as the sink or swim attitude they might have, I can't see paying good money for lessons to have to teach myself. If I was paying 20 bux a month down at the local community center that might be different.

Keep the good advice coming.

[mickey]

heelkick,


I have stolen forms in my life by watching. And I have enjoyed doing it. But doing that is not for everyone.

There is obviously an incongruity between your expectations and the teaching method. I cannot tell you what to do. You have to decide.

mickey

[mickey]

heelkick,

An great idea.

Can you work out somewhere with your Senior Brothers? They can help you greatly; such is the responsibilty of Senior Brothers. I think they may enjoy the hand combinations of Kenpo. There are some instructors that appreciate that kind of initiative.

mickey

[mickey]

heelkick,

Let me clarify my words. Some instructors will appreciate your initiative to learn that way. Training away from class will help develop a good support system for yourself.

mickey

[joedoe]

This is actually a VERY traditional way of teaching. Apparently in the old days a sifu only ever showed a form a few times, and you were expected to learn it by watching those few times. Only after you had practiced the form to a given level did the sifu then correct you, and a lot of your learning and refinement came from your seniors.

[heelkick]

mickey,

The way it works at this school is the senior level students don't really talk to the beginners let alone offer advice and instruction. I noticed maybe a little attitude as well when I tried to make conversation.

[mickey]

heelkick,

joedoe is correct in using the term traditional. I did not want to say that and give you the impression that all kung fu schools do that. Unfortunately, I think your situation may be that of culture clash. I don't think your Seniors realize their responsibilities. There has to be one that will talk to you. I'm crossing my fingers.

mickey

[heelkick]

Yeah mickey I hear you on that. I'm going to go to another class this week and have a "wait and see" approach to things.

[mickey]

heelkick,

No Kung Fu school is easy. Show me an easy Kung fu school and I will see lousy students with the poorest discipline.

Give yourself your best shot at it. I get the feeling that you have what it takes to really prevail over this. Focus and discipline your mind to the task at hand-- this focus is the seed of what Kung Fu is about. With continued effort the seed will sprout and grow. Only you can make it happen; this is what really differentiates Kung fu schools from other styles because you learn this from DAY ONE. A lot of other styles require years of learning to get to this point. If you can click to this, you are going to have a good time.

mickey

[mickey]

heelkick,

Once you click to this, I think your Senior Brothers will start talking to you. You will be speaking a language that they had to learn to speak as well. This won't happen overnight. Put in the time for yourself. It will pay off in the long run.

mickey

[heelkick]

mickey,

Ok, I'll give it my best and take it from there. I'll give you an update as time goes on. Thanx for advice, it's appreciated.

[mickey]

heelkick,

By the way, use the intellectual insights gained from your Kenpo practice to assist with your study of applications. Knowledge is knowledge; yet, be forever hungry for more.

mickey

[MasterKiller]

At no time is there any communication bewteen Sifu and students doing forms. He just goes by a count and then you do the form to his count and finish. Isn't it better to have the practical application of the forms broken down and explained to the student?IMO, the only way to learn correctly is to be taught. Mimicing another person produces a good parrot, but doesn't make an effective fighter.


Is this what they mean when they say kung fu schools have more of a family type of atmosphere? Is the Sifu trying to get the students to help one another as a means of learning and teaching at the same time? The family atmosphere comes from everyone helping one another, as oppossed to a more military and severe Japanese approach. This method may be his way of getting you to help each other, but if he isn't showing anyone the techniques, you could be doing more harm than good by listening to what others are saying. How does he know they got it right?

[Shaolinlueb]

i can show you some bad schools :D jk

[stimulant]

My teacher is 100% old school traditonal.

after our warm ups and basic kicks we go from senior grades down to beginers going through what we are currently learning infront of the class (its good as it inspire the beginers and they can see what they will learn in years to come, plus it inspire confidence in 'performing' infront of the class).

after this our shifu will go around to each grade and show them the next few movements of their current form. He doesn always show the apllications, but always shows if we ask. its now at the point where most of us seniors know the application on new techniques from just seeing and feeling the mechanics of the technique.

My advise to you is stay with the school, learn from watching, and ASK application...if you show the movement you want the application for....and you do it wrong...then the teacher should correct you and show you the application to...so you win on both fronts - personal teaching plus application! Or you could ask the senior grades if it is not deemed inpolite.

good luck.

[Scythefall]

Don't let anyone tell you that small space is a problem. At times, we've filled our school to capacity and there is always room to train. You can work around a crowd and forms should never be so rigid that you can't.

Senior students teach a lot in our school and thus there are small differences...roughly 2 or 3 small differences between the way student A does a form versus student B and C. Sifu comes in just when you're comfortable doing it the way Student A taught you and he corrects the issues.

[Royal Dragon]

This is actually a VERY traditional way of teaching. Apparently in the old days a sifu only ever showed a form a few times, and you were expected to learn it by watching those few times. Only after you had practiced the form to a given level did the sifu then correct you, and a lot of your learning and refinement came from your seniors.

Reply]
What, pray tell, is the difference between the above, and learning from a video, testing with your partners, and an occasional flight to see a teacher of a system?

[Royal Dragon]

Also, I thought that learning ONE move at a time, mastering it and it's application, THEN learning another one over and over agian, untill you have all the moves of the entire form, and finnaly putting it together was the Traditional method??

I was under the impression that the method listed above where your shown a form only once or twice was a modern thing done by modern masters who really don't want to teach.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by mickey
heelkick,

No Kung Fu school is easy. Show me an easy Kung fu school and I will see lousy students with the poorest discipline.

Give yourself your best shot at it. I get the feeling that you have what it takes to really prevail over this. Focus and discipline your mind to the task at hand-- this focus is the seed of what Kung Fu is about. With continued effort the seed will sprout and grow. Only you can make it happen; this is what really differentiates Kung fu schools from other styles because you learn this from DAY ONE. A lot of other styles require years of learning to get to this point. If you can click to this, you are going to have a good time.

mickey


let me get my list ready.

[stimulant]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Also, I thought that learning ONE move at a time, mastering it and it's application, THEN learning another one over and over agian, untill you have all the moves of the entire form, and finnaly putting it together was the Traditional method??

I was under the impression that the method listed above where your shown a form only once or twice was a modern thing done by modern masters who really don't want to teach.


Traditional training in china consisted of learning forms and practising them lots and lots and lots....only later on you learn the applications. This method produced some of china greatest boxers...but it is also a long term method. with the modren demands for 'here and now' learning technique and application in short space of time was introduced. The new method produces good results faster...but does not produce such good fighters long term.

many people today start teaching after training for maybe 3-4 years......traditionally in china you would still be training the basics after 2-3 years before even thinking about learning the 'style' itself.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not sure that is true. Most of the sources I hae heard seem to indicate rushing into learning the set is a very modern thing. In the ancient past, forms were said to have been learned one move at a time over a period of time Then finnaly once they were all learned, they were assembled into the complete set and practiced as a whole.

The thing I allways heard, was you learn one thing, then once you can do it right, and ONLY when you can do it right do you get taught another.

As for the method of learning tones of forms, and drilling them forever makes China's best fighters, I think that method has been really dis proven in modern times with the advent of the UFC/MMA phenominon. I mean really, those guys are exceptional fighters, developed in a very short amount of time, often dominateing those trained int he suposed "Traditional" Kung Fu way with ease, and they don't even learn forms.

What I have gathered from my research over the years, is that what is most heavily *promoted* as "Traditional" Kung Fu is in fact very modern. All the drilling of forms and such, lack of contact, and all the "Master Worship" that seems to go along with it was developed in the last 80 years or so. In ancient times, you learned techniques, that were strung to gether to create the form. MAYBE you learned ONE set, or a section of the set, and thourally disected it for it's maximum content before learning anything more.

[Royal Dragon]

Huh??
The new method produces good results faster...but does not produce such good fighters long term

Reply]
So your saying fighters lose their skill by doing the same thing they did to get it in the first place?

I don't see how endless forms can develop skill at all, let alone superior skills that last forever. Then actually drilling application, free fighting and skill testing does not.

[stimulant]

I dont understand the mechanics of it fully myself, but most (depending on style) of the 'classical' great fighters learned and trained in the traditional way. Huo Yuan jia, Lu Zhen Dou and probably Wong Fei Hung learned that way.

Maybe it is down to spirituality and being at one with oneself and other cliches like that.

I'm personally more in favour of the new approach.,...but being a 'I want results now' westerner what else would you expect??!!!

what really interests me is how these 'clasical' / 'legendery' fighters would do in modern UFC / MMA / MT competitions....unfortunatly we will never know....well not until someone invents a time machine (hint hint NASA).


If we ask our Shifu to show us applications...he does. If we ask him to train us harder in fighting...we do forms training more and harder. If we say we want to be able to fight quickly...he trains us in san-da (completly different to the san-da you see in competitons today, ours resembles TCMA...). My shifu and (especially) his father before him were famous fighters (my shifus father winning the first national competition in 1933/4)...and they trainined in the traditional way.

We do do two man drills and forms for timing and conditioning, but he shifu says forms practise is best! I know what I think....but shifu's 58 years training and numerous awards and experience, and especially his skill and martial background prove his way is the best way....well for our style anyway.




how does everyone else shifus train them?

[Royal Dragon]

See, I disagree is to what is said to be traditional. I don't think doing forms all the time is the traditional way at all. Every thing I have found seems to indicate that is a MODERN method (last 80 years or so).

The learning application, and then building the form from that seems to be what the really ancient players were doing (Pre Gun era). It makes more logical sense too. I mean, did someone's fighting ability take less importance back when times were harder and more violent? Or did it take more importance. Logic dictates that it took more importance, thearfore the methods that built rapid fighting skills would have been emlployed.

Forms practice, will defenetly enhance existing fighting ability. Especially when you consider it's a really good ultra sport specific cardiio workout. But can it teach you how to fight well? Not really, unless all your opponents did only forms too.

[MasterKiller]

RD has frankened this discussion. Doing forms all day is the way you keep 100 students busy so you can make your rent.

Forms are content management, a way to catalog your techniques. Drilling individual techniques is the way to true competency, and the old timers know this. The saying isn't "Fear a man who practices 10,000 forms," it's "Fear the man who practices one kick 10,000 times."

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
RD has frankened this discussion. Doing forms all day is the way you keep 100 students busy so you can make your rent.

Forms are content management, a way to catalog your techniques. Drilling individual techniques is the way to true competency, and the old timers know this. The saying isn't "Fear a man who practices 10,000 forms," it's "Fear the man who practices one kick 10,000 times."

agh the old school days of practicing 1 form for a year or 3. :cool:

[stimulant]

the problem is all traditon schools also had a contact element...which was dis-approved of by the communists as was sparing, as a result many schools now only have the forms, and the drills have all but disappeared.

forms are your bread and butter in TCMA. but there are also two man drills.


without forms training where are the foundations? strong foundations (forms all day for long time!) make for a strong style / fighter.

just my feelings on the matter, all coments and 'other sides of the coin' are welcome.

[sakko]

I'm a new (4 months) Shaolin Longfist student. At my school, we were taught very similar to you heelkick in the beginning that is.

But as we learn new forms, sifu sends us to the end of the class with a senior belt to show us the new form. He will go through the movements with you a few times until you start remembering them, then stand aside and watch you, correcting fist positions, posture, stances, things like that.

Then, having learned the basics of the form, you are asked to come up with the rest of the students working that form and do it "by count" (1-2-1-2-1-2-3-etc), which is a very slow performance of the form. If you are having trouble or forgetting movements or doing certain movements incorrectly, sifu will send you once again to the back of the class and call upon a senior student (usually a different student, which is cool cause they spot different things than the first dude), for a review of the forms and more correction.

Once you have things down "by count" you are called up for sets with the students "at your own speed" in which everyone performs the form without counts, at a steady pace. You are then encouraged to practice your forms at home and also, for forms you have attained a high degree of knowledge in, to perform them faster.

Sifu is very approachable, but the class is an hour and packed with practice kicks, forms, weapons, then sparring. During the last 10 minutes is when we practice chin na and san shou (sp?) which you can pretty much ask him anything. If he feels you are having trouble with a specific form he will tell you to practice your form during chin na time. You can always ask after class too (especially the last class of the day, he hangs out another 10-15 mins usually).

Since there is so much helping going on, the senior students are very approachable for that matter as well. Personally I feel kinda like you are being jipped heelkick, I wouldn't want to learn a form by watching someone alone, yeah it helps, but ****... how is anyone supposed to know if you are learning it correctly? You need to have someone take you aside and more or less force you to do it correctly. Plus relearning forms (for me at least) is a complete nightmare. Once I get set in my ways I find it very hard to come out of it. Expecting you to do that every single time is just ridiculous. I have never done anything like Shaolin Kung Fu in my life, no MA, no full body coordination type stuff, hell I don't even dance. So needless to say, I need alot of construction, and I'm thankful I'm in a place where I can get it.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by stimulant
the problem is all traditon schools also had a contact element...which was dis-approved of by the communists as was sparing, as a result many schools now only have the forms, and the drills have all but disappeared.

forms are your bread and butter in TCMA. but there are also two man drills.


without forms training where are the foundations? strong foundations (forms all day for long time!) make for a strong style / fighter.

just my feelings on the matter, all coments and 'other sides of the coin' are welcome.

my sifu's sifu lived in malayasia so the contact part wasnt taken out of it. so I guess I am lucky that we still do many applications and drills with the forms.

[stimulant]

I'm lucky in that my shifu (although from china) knows and teaches the traditional.

[Royal Dragon]

Real Traditional, Traditional (Basics, Basics, Basics and lots of fighting)? or modern traditional (lot'o forms and little else)

[stimulant]

Lots of tan tui and forms mainly in class

in additoning people do

conditioning drills (some combat based as opposed to just 'knocking arms' etc)

two man forms (weapons, empty hand, including chin na forms)

sand da practise (really kinda different to the 'sanda' you see in competiton - ours actually looks like kung-fu)

forms application practise


but training is mainly for forms and tan tui in class.


check out our website....its got proper history, correct lineage, a (new) forum and so on....its only been up for about a month so no gallery or video clips yet, but they should be added in near future....there are a couple of pictures of Lu Shifu though.

You can ask any question you want on the forum there.

www.zhenwei.org

[mickey]

Hello heelkick,

I see your thread is still generating discussion. It has been a few weeks since we have talked. Would you mind giving us an update of your experiences? Follow up to advice given is proper and necessary. And it may help me learn how to better address similar threads in the future.

Please do share.

Very Concerned,

mickey

[Royal Dragon]

That's what I thought, Thanks

[taichi4eva]

Hey....heelkick...

I was just wondering. Do you go to Cheng's Shaolin Kung Fu School in Buena Park? i go there.

late

[sakko]

OMFG Taichi, so do I!!! Lol... I never thought anyone from my school would post here. That's too funny! Anyway, I would think he's not going to our school since Sifu makes sure the blackbelts walk us through the forms, which in his original post he said they do not do. I'm kind of interested to find out where he goes though.

Taichi4eva I'm going to PM you... and see if I can find out who you are :D

[taichi4eva]

so sakko...i doubt you'd be able to recognize me.

I'm a newbie to the place, but I got to skip cuz i did TKD before.

Cya there

[sakko]

Oh? No... I keep a close eye on all the newbies :D It's cool to hear why they join up and see them progress through the stuff I've gone through. The TKD fellas are equally interesting as well. In fact one of my fav people in the class has some TKD background. Have you met Phillip? I LOVE to watch that guy do forms.. if I can do forms half as good as he can I'll be happy hehe... such precision and great posture.

But anyway, there's one TKD'er that came to us about hmm... 2 months ago? I may be wrong of course since maybe we don't even attend the same classes, but anyway, he's a pleasure to watch spar, since his kicks all come very fast. It's cool to watch him spar the black belts. Oh hell I guess it's cool to watch everyone spar. Well check your PM's and say hey the next time you see me.

[taichi4eva]

I came three months ago...

thanks for the compliment

[mickey]

Greetings,

As of 2/2/04, heelkick has left us and moved on into the world of Wing Chun. I wish him well.

mickey

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
This is actually a VERY traditional way of teaching. Apparently in the old days a sifu only ever showed a form a few times, and you were expected to learn it by watching those few times. Only after you had practiced the form to a given level did the sifu then correct you, and a lot of your learning and refinement came from your seniors.

Reply]
What, pray tell, is the difference between the above, and learning from a video, testing with your partners, and an occasional flight to see a teacher of a system?

Sorry for taking so long to reply RD.

I never made any comments about learning from a video. I suppose since you mention it, there isn't much difference as long as you do get the occasional bit of correction from your sifu.


Also, I thought that learning ONE move at a time, mastering it and it's application, THEN learning another one over and over agian, untill you have all the moves of the entire form, and finnaly putting it together was the Traditional method??

I was under the impression that the method listed above where your shown a form only once or twice was a modern thing done by modern masters who really don't want to teach.


I guess teaching methods vary from teacher to teacher. My sigung was taught this way, and that was often the way he taught too. I don't think it was a question of whether they wanted to teach or not - if they didn't want to teach then they just wouldn't teach.

And really, this is a teaching method that was used for teaching forms. As to how they learned technique and developed their power etc, the teaching method may have been quite different.