Fighting closed minded ignorance

[TheWarriorHeart]

Ok, so I have been training in shaolin 5 animals for about a year and a half now. About 6 months ago I decided to cross train because I would like to compete in NHB and plus I just generally have a fighters mentally. I realized that I couldnt stay here at the Kung fu school and train all the time because pretty much everyone there doesnt take martial arts to ever be a real fighter or train like one in my opinion. So I went to this mma gym in my area and started training BJJ and Muay Thai(bout 6 mos ago). Since then my overall game has skyrocketed and I love everything about the training I have available to me.

Well I still go and train at the kung fu school maybe 2 times a week(3-4 at the mma gym). My instructor was fine with me cross training because he isnt close minded. The problem now comes with some of the students who are taken aback that I would ever decide to train somewhere else. They see me shadowboxing after class and ask the sifu( a personal friend of mine) why I'm doing it. Well the other day I was trying to explain to a lower belt what a sprawl is demonstrating it. Well this other student comes up to me and starts rambling on about how this is kung fu and we dont do that here. I was like "What are you talking about man? It is a technique and we all come here to learn right??" . Well of course he didnt agree. I decided to end the convo and it really started to **** me off the close mindedness of some of these people. They look at the instructor like he is some sort of god and think because they learned a throat strike or whatever they are now walking lethal weapons. It ****ed me off just that this lower belt had the nerve to even question me. I felt it was disrespectful and wanted to challenge him right there but I didnt because I felt it would be disrespectful to the sifu. Plus I would literally kill this guy anyway. But it just made me quite angry how close minded some people were. I have the mind set where I dont even look at a style anymore. If you have something I think I can benefit from then hey I would love to train with you. I dont care if you train in kung fu or wrestling or what have you. The very definition of kung fu means "high skill" so why limit ourselves? Training in both mma and tma I see close mindedness on both sides and it sucks. First off I hate having some punk think he is lethal and a hardcore fighter when I am over here busting my a$$ putting my hours in fighting and training hard and this person is practicing punching his fingers through cardboard. Arghhhh, frustrating.

Anyway, I had a talk with the sifu and I came to the conclusion that because of the close mindedness of the students I am no longer going to shadow box after class or even mention about the training I recieve at the mma gym. Some people.....:rolleyes:
If the person I just described is you....and you are at home trying to jam your phoenix eye through some cardboard thinking you need to be locked up you're so deadly then I suggest you take a healthy sip of reality. Come back down to earth where your head isnt so inflated realize you arent half as deadly as you think you are. A little humility in todays world can go a long way.

Rant over. I probably sounded like a jerk but oh well
Rant over

[IronFist]

haha 0Wn3d!

Good post.

[yenhoi]

Why does it matter what they think if you are learning and have skill?

:eek:

[BentMonk]

TWH - The closed minds you speak of will open when these folks use what they think they know in a fight. Of course "open minded" may mean a bleeding head wound, but hey. Yenhoi summed it up in one sentence.

[SevenStar]

you sound like me. I posted one of my experiences a while back. To make a long story short:

I was training in longfist and a few of the senior students would say things like "boxers have no skill" and "In three months of our grappling, we could take on any grappler out there", etc.

One day, a friend and I were showing some grappling techniques to a guy who was getting ready to enter a grappling competition and one particular senior student walks up to us and says "yeah, but in a real fight, you just kick him in the nuts or punch him in the throat"

closed mindedness is everywhere.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

our sifu is real open to other arts, hell our kung fu is a mix of other TMA with a lot of the fluff removed. we use muay thai roundhouse kicks, karate style side kicks, kung fu style front kicks, western boxing, pa kua-pretty much whatever works. he suggests that we cross train with a grappling art if we can because what we do is primarily striking, although we do have a lot of emphasis on throws and takedowns. if someone had a problem with me shadow boxing after class because its "not traditional" I would tell them that if they think they know better they can feel free to show it in a sparring match. (unless they were huge of course :D)

[Water Dragon]

I've been very lucky in this regard. My Shuai Chiao teacher recommended that I study Muay Thai, and me Muay Thai/Boxing coach is also a BJJ instructor (He teaches Vale Tudo) and is going to have me start teaching some Shuai Chiao in his classes.

I really do feel lucky.

[truewrestler]

TheWarriorHeart, for what its worth you sound like a nice guy :)

good luck with all your training

[red5angel]

hmmm, a few things to say, first, like Yenhoi, why care what they think, I wouldn't

Second, why are you studying at a martial arts school that isn't teaching you to fight anyway?

[fa_jing]

Actually it is kindof bad taste to be practicing anything that isn't part of your school's curriculum. I say that because Master Kwan used to get pretty p!ssed if I was warming up with a Wing Chun form before Praying Mantis class. This despite the fact that I was learning Wing Chun at his kwoon. He encouraged cross-training, but not in his class - I guess he didn't want to lose students to another Martial Art. Plus it was like, I didn't appreciate his art enough, and all it had to offer.

[red5angel]

I think I am with fa_jing on this. Think about what it says or might appear to say about the school or the art you are practicing.

[mortal]

You just shouldn't practice other arts in different classes just out of good taste. When you go to a class you should give 100% focus on whatever that class is out of respect for the teacher and the other students. If you want to practice something else, go to the other class more or practice on your own.

[apoweyn]

Meh. Depends on the expectations of the individual class or teacher. Personally, I want students to bring their other experiences to my classes. If your teacher feels otherwise, you should respect that.

But it doesn't sound like your problem is with the teacher. It's with his other students. And personally, I don't think they should really be setting the expectation for that training environment.


Stuart B.

[MasterKiller]

There is a difference between senior students setting the tone, and someone else setting the tone. If the guys who have a problem have been there longer, and have an influence in the class via teaching, etc, you should pay attention to what they say and just not practice it. If you are a senior student there, and have influence over the curriculum, etc, then use that influence to introduce your new training as long as the Sifu approves.

There is nothing I hate more than a new student (or relatively new) trying to force me to do things their way when I teach it differently. If you value it, that's fine, but in my class you practice the way I want you to.

Of course, I realize that's a little different the Warrior's situation, where he is practicing after class. I don't care what you do after class is over.

[apoweyn]

I was under the impression that the sifu had already approved, effectively nullifying the objections of his senior students. If he hasn't, I think it would be worth talking to your sifu and seeing how he feels about it. Personally, I think he should be accessible in that way.

[MasterKiller]

Of course, Sifu has final word. It's his school, and he can do what he wants. But I think senior students and Sifu should confer about changes to the curriculum. If Sifu doesn't value the opinions of the seniors, they shouldn't be running class/teaching.

I'll add that if the seniors can't accept the final decision of the Sifu, they need to spar Sifu and get beat down. :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mortal
You just shouldn't practice other arts in different classes just out of good taste. When you go to a class you should give 100% focus on whatever that class is out of respect for the teacher and the other students. If you want to practice something else, go to the other class more or practice on your own.

I can see your point there. In the instance I was giving though, he was trying to enter a grappling tourney. Naturally, we were showing him grappling. sifu had no problem with it, which is why we continued. that particular student was just being an ass clown.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Of course, Sifu has final word. It's his school, and he can do what he wants. But I think senior students and Sifu should confer about changes to the curriculum. If Sifu doesn't value the opinions of the seniors, they shouldn't be running class/teaching.

I'll add that if the seniors can't accept the final decision of the Sifu, they need to spar Sifu and get beat down. :D

Actually, that's a very good point. It does undermine the class structure of a school if the seniors' views are disregarded openly. I hadn't thought of it like that because, as a teacher, I've not really had senior students. Well, one. But I guess we were pretty clear on what was on and what wasn't.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by red5angel
I think I am with fa_jing on this. Think about what it says or might appear to say about the school or the art you are practicing.

While training is going on, you gotta get with the program.

However, before or after, you should be able to work on whatever* as long as you're not incurring liability for the site. If this means you train your forms at a jujutsu place, you're likely to get multiple "hissahs" or "waaaahhhh," personal demonstrations of the dreaded "dragon shoots fire" or "monkey picks nits" techniques, and my personal favorite, the pantomimed kung fu movie dialogue--"your scorpion style is strong, but can it defeat my toad style. It's almost inpenetrable." If this means you roll around on the ground at most CMA joints, you'll probably get the "I'd just poke you in the eye or punch you in the throat" or the "my root is too strong to takedown" crowd.

C'est la vie.

*I've never been anywhere that *seriously* cared about this, but I've always made a conscious effort to choose non-profit training since training quality and price are too often inversely correlated.

[truewrestler]

training quality and price are too often inversely correlated maybe in kung-fu :p

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by truewrestler
maybe in kung-fu :p

don't forget boxing, too. ;)

The cheaper and rattier the gym, the meaner the ghetto, and the uglier of the trainer then better the quality of instruction.

[TheWarriorHeart]

Just to clear some things up. I am the highest senior ranking student in the class at this moment. So I felt it was disrespectful for the lower belt to even question me. I had also discussed with the sifu opening up another school branching off of his with the same name only I would be the instructor and it would pretty much be my school. At first it seemed a good business opportunity for me. However, I really dont want to encourage close mindedness in any teaching. I would not be able to teach or show any techniques outside of the 5 animals system. I guess I am kinda between a rock and a hard place on this. I want to feel like I am helping any students learn to become not just better at fighting but also encourage an ethical warrior code(value of honor, etc). I would NOT want students coming to me, learning and then going off thinking that their snake strike is the most deadly thing on the planet and makes them invincible.

For the record, I have met many more open minded(to martial arts) and all around good people at the mma gym then anywhere else. That is not to say I dont know any good people at the kung fu school, I do. I just met more at the mma gym :)

Now I like doing the kung fu forms at times it brings me peace of mind. I just hate dealing with people who have a false sense of confidence due to lack of fighting experience and general lack of respect for other fighting styles or mind sets. We are all here to learn and train are we not? I have buried the hatchet with this lower belt who questioned me but still in the back of my head I would love for him to mess up and I challenge him to spar and basically beat him down for awhile.....Oh wait if we were just sparring then he couldnt do his deadly snake strike. Darn! I guess the real tough guys cant even do their techniques in sparring!

[MasterKiller]

Just to clear some things up. I am the highest senior ranking student in the class at this moment. So I felt it was disrespectful for the lower belt to even question me. I agree.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by truewrestler
maybe in kung-fu :p

Judo schools are also pretty cheap. Likewise, there's an adult wrestling club in town that's essentially free.

Likewise, while kendo's not my thing, good quality is available for almost free once you get past the initial outlay for equipment.

[apoweyn]

Well, that changes the equation again.

So... have you talked to your sifu about this? If not, I'm thinking that should be your next step.

[Merryprankster]

Somebody please define disrespectful here.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Somebody please define disrespectful here.

That's what your mum said!

...

Sorry.

[fa_jing]

Actually, when I was part of a regular class, I didn't like too much the whole heirarchy thing, I mean 2 years of anything isn't really enough for me to have to respect some punk 19-year old like he was my drill sargeant or something. Even if he could have kicked my ass at the time.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Somebody please define disrespectful here.

Could be two things

1. When I am in class to learn Muay Thai, I try to learn Muay Thai. I am there to learn. I respect my coach enough to work on what he is teaching me in class. I am there to learn Muay Thai, not Shuai Chiao

2. After class, Crip and I take advantage of the mat and do free wrestling. Miguel's going to have me teach takedowns and throws in the Muay Thai class, there are 3 of my classmates that are interested in SC, and we are starting to do some Gong Fu conditioning exercises and San Shou techs. This is OK because Miguel knows his Muay Thai and BJJ are top notch. I bring a different skill set that we all can benefit from.

If Miguel had no skill, maybe he would see that situation as disrespectful.

[Merryprankster]

Well yeah, that's sort of what I'm trying to identify.

What made this disrespectful? Tone of voice? Posture? The question itself? The fact that he was a lower rank?

Just trying to sort out what about it was disrespectful--not trying to DOUBT (yet) that it WAS in fact, disrespectful.

[Water Dragon]

I'm confused about that two. I'm betting there's mirrors in that school and WarriorHeart was taking advantage of that to do some shadow boxing. That's what I would do anyway. I can
t see anything disrespectful here either.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Somebody please define disrespectful here. Read his initial post. If someone with less training time or experience openly questions or berates you because they don't understand what you are doing, refuses to accept your explanations based on their limited experience, or insists they know better, I find that disrespectful. Typically, these situations are settled through sparring, where you show them the value in what you were training. I'm sure grapplers are not immune to beginners-know-it-all syndrome.

[Merryprankster]

If someone with less training time or experience openly questions

If somebody BERATES me, yes. But if they openly question me, I don't see what the issue is.


refuses to accept your explanations based on their limited experience

I call that stupid, not disrespectful.


or insists they know better, I find that disrespectful.

See above.


Typically, these situations are settled through sparring, where you show them the value in what you were training.

True.


I'm sure grapplers are not immune to beginners-know-it-all syndrome.

We've got a slightly different sense of who's who. I, for instance, am not as good as somebody with significantly less training time than I have. Point being that beginners-know-it-all syndrome tends to disappear rather quickly in my sport because egos get crushed pretty fast (or, you just don't come back to class). There's no question about what's what. I'd prefer not to discuss this sidebar right now though.


I see it on the grappling forums all the time.

Ooo... It smarts!:eek:

Anyway, what I'M trying to determine is WHY this was seen as disrespectful. I'm betting (and hoping) that it was the attitude of the individual in question.

[MasterKiller]

I'm betting (and hoping) that it was the attitude of the individual in question. I doubt if an open, honest debate about the validity of what he was practicing would have made him angry.

I think it was the other guys refusal to accept that a technique not favored or practiced by his kung fu style had any validity at all and the insinuation that a senior student, who has more experience in fighting, should know better.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Just trying to sort out what about it was disrespectful--not trying to DOUBT (yet) that it WAS in fact, disrespectful.

To my mind, it wasn't really a question of disrespect. I think Masterkiller makes a good point about preserving the structure of a school. But given that WarriorsHeart is the senior student, that doesn't really apply.

What I find so odd is that the seniormost student, who's been approved to open a satellite school, doesn't feel like he's able to ask his teacher about this.


Stuart B.

[truewrestler]

"Well the other day I was trying to explain to a lower belt what a sprawl is demonstrating it. Well this other student comes up to me and starts rambling on about how this is kung fu and we dont do that here."

sounds like it might be a little disrespectful

[SevenStar]

1. you're the senior student
2. he's kinda berating what you do.


Show him why you do it.

[Gangsterfist]

that is too bad. My sifu encourages cross training after a certain time has passed. He strongly suggests you start off with Wing chun (he teaches WC, and Taiji Yang family) then after about 2years move on to something else and start cross training. He knows the five animals, WC, Taiji, some karate, TKD, mantis, etc etc. He may not be able to do all the forms of each style but he knows the basics of them. My sibak has studied wing chun and taiji for many years (i am guessing at least 40yrs), and he is also has a black belt in okinawan karate. Being open minded is very important. Being closed minded just makes you an elitist.

Here is a link to my sibak.

http://www.wingchunusa.com/masterli/

[joedoe]

Well, if your sifu is cool with what you are doing, then tell your junior student to STFU. If you haven't cleared it with your sifu, then maybe you should do that first to establish your position on it.

[Merryprankster]

sounds like it might be a little disrespectful

Well, I agree with that. I doubt I'd use the word disrespectful because of the connotations involved, but then the senior student/lower rank stuff came in and I was trying to figure out what triggered the disrespectful comment.

For instance, if it was a senior student that told him that, would it still be disrespectful?

[TheWarriorHeart]

Ok let me clear this up. Firstly, I did talk to the sifu regarding this incident and he was very understanding and kind of alluded to the fact that we were both in the wrong.
On the lower belt's part for questioning me and yes his attitude was disrespectful because I was showing this technique to another student and he all the sudden interjects with "we dont do that here, this is shaolin kung fu". That kind of attitude is blatant disrespect in my opinion. But I understand that on the most part that attitude comes from lack of knowledge, experience and just general all around ignorance. To me the only way to settle it is to spar but I know the sifu would not approve because after I hand this close minded person a very nice ground n pound beatdown just to demonstrate the techniques I am sure he would never come back to class. I dont wanna do that in the sifu's class because it is a business and he also tries to promote brotherhood not division and I agree wholeheartedly.
Finally, I was in the wrong because I assumed that the other students were just as open minded as I was about learning new techniques. And the sifu agrees. So I told him I would not practice or discuss any other techniques that I learn from other schools while inside his building basically. This we both agreed on ( I and the sifu) was to accomodate the close minded individuals who couldnt fathom any techniques, stlyes or what have you being more effective then their beloved shaolin kung fu. Not because the sifu is opposed to other techniques being shown in his building(after class or whatever).

[Unmatchable]

WaterDragon,

just curious why did your sifu advise you to learn Muay Thai/Boxing instead of kung fu (striking) art when he teaches you one?

[apoweyn]

WarriorHeart,

If you're thinking of opening a satellite school for this sifu, perhaps you could suggest first running a single class in his school devoted to crosstraining. That way, the more closed-minded guys would know what to expect from the class, you'd get the chance to work with the open-minded ones, and everyone's happy. No?


Stuart B.

[MasterKiller]

UnMatchable,
WaterDragon studies a grappling/throwing style. I'm not sure how much striking is emphasized in SC.

[David Jamieson]

uh, is it just me who notices???

I think that warrior heart is just another 3.5 troll manufacturing a story about how mma is better than trad kungfu and he's weaving a tail of his "sifu's" agreeance with him about his superior skeelz.

My spin? Warrior heart is a troll. Warrior heart probably hasn't set foot in a real kungfu school, trains at the house of mish mash no path get hurt constantly and watches entirely too much ufc.lol

you guys aren't picking that up at all?

dude, and I mean warrior heart, you are a troll,lol.
you are also likely making all this up to try and get people to agree with you that ufc mma is better than anything out there.

well ok, why don't you go do that then and forget Kungfu. it's easier to test your mettle and get your yayas out in an mma environment. plus you come across sounding like you either are a bully or wish you hadn't been bullied so many time LOL.

cheers, you hooked a few this time.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
WaterDragon,

just curious why did your sifu advise you to learn Muay Thai/Boxing instead of kung fu (striking) art when he teaches you one?

The Shuai Chiao is known for it's throwing, not it's striking.

My teacher tangled with Muay Thai guys before. You'd have to ask him how the matches went, but he walked away with a lot of respect for them.

He tells me, "Yeah, they're just as crazy as we are. They train hard. You should work with them."

[red5angel]

because everyone knows if your not practicing muy thai or BJJ you can't really fight.

[MasterKiller]

No...you have to practice muay thai AND bjj to fight. If you want weapons, you have to add Escrima.

Two styles to fight effectively seems inefficient.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
because everyone knows if your not practicing muy thai or BJJ you can't really fight.

exactly.:o :p :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
No...you have to practice muay thai AND bjj to fight. If you want weapons, you have to add Escrima.

Two styles to fight effectively seems inefficient.

CMA needs to add a grappling component also. or wait several years to learn ground grappling that may or may not be in the system, or try to modify their chin na to work on the ground...reinventing the wheel.

THAT to me seems inefficient...

[Ray Pina]

It's great that you have the time to cross train and study two arts at the same time. Your attitude about just getting good material is also great.

But here's a question:

Your kung fu school sounds like the form/line drill type. While there, after class, why did you choose to shadow box instead of ask a senior for the next part of a form or about a drill you learned?

You had to expect to draw attention to yourself.

Lots of guys from other styles come to our school and 90% of the time, before their first class, they love to show how they can snap their pants doing the low-to-high round house kick. You can set your watch to it.

The difference, these guys aren't impressing anyone (I was doing that at 6) but you are. If you're going to cross train, I'd suggest saving the shadow boxing for when you get home or when you're at the other gyme. You'd feel foolish doing form in front of boxers. You make form guys feel foolish when you're boxing.

You're doing the right thing. Just that you need more modesty around "traditional" martial artist.

I've been at schools where it's nothing to walk in early and ask someone who's been there longer, "Hey, want to spar."

And other schools where it's like, "How dare you think you can match skills with me, a senior."

You have to feel out each school, respect the homefield rules. Sounds like you're building an arsenal though. Good luck.

[MasterKiller]

You can either train to make the fight go your way, or give up and expect that the other guy will make you fight his way.

[fa_jing]

KL is right - be suspicious of anyone who shows up with a low post count and one of their first posts is like this....

However, this situation, albeit hypothetical, is a good point of discussion.

[red5angel]

CMA needs to add a grappling component also. or wait several years to learn ground grappling that may or may not be in the system, or try to modify their chin na to work on the ground...reinventing the wheel.


not reinventing the wheel, just finding the stuff that has been removed, because I highly doubt that before the brazilians started fighting that ground fighting was unheard of or unaddressed in CMA ;)

as for inefficient, sure you could just start to learn all of it at once and be a jack of all trades master of none, or you could take your time and learn it properly. what's the rush?

[SevenStar]

E-fist - He is the most senior student at the school...

he may have had some free time on his hands and wanted to work out - maybe he knew that he wouldn't do that at home or something. The other day in MT I was doing moving 3 star drills against a steel pillar that's in the gym - wasn't showing off, but I don't have access to such a pillar at home, and I had some time, as class had not yet started.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by red5angel



not reinventing the wheel, just finding the stuff that has been removed, because I highly doubt that before the brazilians started fighting that ground fighting was unheard of or unaddressed in CMA ;)



In traditional Chinese culture, it is considered humiliating to roll around on the ground. They would rather lose. That's why you don't really see groundf fighting in the CMA. The name Dog Boxing is not an honor, it's insult.

[Ben Gash]

Kung Lek, I did consider this, but he hasn't really said anything inflammatory. Also, you don't need to troll on this subject, there really are enough real examples to effectively rubbish kung fu.
" I work with this guy, and it turns out he's an international Kyokoshinkai competitor. So I agreed to spar with him, and my kung fu blocking techniques and counter attacks didn't stop his back leg roundhouse kicks. But I spoke to my Sifu who said my angles were wrong, so it's OK". This is a real example (the identity has been hidden to protect the guilty, you know who you are) of why people rag on CMA so badly.
On the flip side, my Sifu regularly spars with the aforementioned karate fighter, and draws great amounts from the experience, and modifies his application accordingly. The arts are living, fluid things. Attempting to do everything exactly as you were shown will kill kung fu faster than anything. Think of any great master from history, and chances are they trained with more than one Sifu or exchanged ideas with people.
There are really two issues here. The shadow boxing after the class will upset people (as your sifu apears to have alluded to). Think about what it says. You value the kung fu so much that as soon as you don't have to do it anymore, you start doing something else. Basically it breeds resentment.
The second issue is the junior student, and this is again two issues. Merryprankster, the issue here is really what he said. A junior student is more than welcome to have an opinion, or to question a senior student. However, to go up to a senior student and tell him what he should be doing is blatantly disrespectful. This kind of episodes needs to be controlled with a degree of firmness, or it can get out of control. I've been Dai Sihing at my school for some years now, and periodically there have been problems of this kind. Some I've handled OK, and some I've had a nightmare with (but at the end of the day I'm still here).
The second issue with the student is prevalent in many students around the 2-3 year mark. These students tend to think in boxes.
"Technocentricity" as one of my Sifus calls it. These students are at the stage when they will either drop out or see it through to black sash. In response they become very "in" to the style as they are developing a sense of ownership in it. As they progress their minds will become more open as they start to develop their own expression.

[Ben Gash]

Water Dragon, CMA is full of moves that involve rolling on the ground.
Anyway, dog boxing is a descriptive name. Try and apply that rationale to monkey.

[Ben Gash]

"They would rather lose"
RIGHT
They would rather die, allow their wife to raped, their children murdered and their home plundered than get their clothes dirty?

[red5angel]

In traditional Chinese culture,

It's also not correct to grow facial hair until your parents or dead but that doesn't seem to stop some people. It was also tradition to refuse to teach non chinese kungfu, but that hasn't stopped anyone. My guess is that not even considering that things change in time, the back in the old days there were plenty of people out there who didn't have an issue with doing whatever they needed to to win a combat including going to the ground. I also seriously doubt the the entirety of a martil culture just neglected to study that particular range of combat.
In short, I don't buy it

Ben Gash - "The arts are living, fluid things. Attempting to do everything exactly as you were shown will kill kung fu faster than anything."

That's worth putting in my sig.

[MasterKiller]

BenGash,
There is a certain amount of disdain for getting knocked down in CMA. That's why we spend so much effort working on balance.

That being said, we do groundwork. It's not as sophisticated as BJJ, but we practice ground and submission techniques from our CMA arsenal. We have 1 form totally dedicated to ground fighting.

[SevenStar]

Hey! I'm the one that plays devil's advocate around here. But in response...


Originally posted by red5angel

not reinventing the wheel, just finding the stuff that has been removed, because I highly doubt that before the brazilians started fighting that ground fighting was unheard of or unaddressed in CMA ;)

The Brazilians didn't intro it silly, the Japanese did. Seriously though, even if it was there and had been removed, you are still reinventing the wheel, unless you have access to someone who already knows the techniques that were removed, or some sort of documentation.

as for inefficient, sure you could just start to learn all of it at once and be a jack of all trades master of none, or you could take your time and learn it properly. what's the rush?

1. who cares if you are a jack of all trades and master of none? In the grand scheme of things, does it matter? you need to have a firm foundation in something, but you will never truly master you art anyway. In the meantime, I can become as well rounded and proficient as possible in a more efficient manner.

2. learning both does not imply learning in a rush or improperly. It just means you manage your time differently. I spend about 5.5 hours per week in a judo class, 4 hours/week in MT and 6-8 hours/week in grappling. My bjj is the weakest aspect of the three, so I need the extra training time.

it's not a matter of rushing but learning aspects that aren't there. in MT, I will learn a few takedowns, but not the magnitude that I would in Judo. BJJ has a ground component that is more specialized than that of Judo. It all fits. I attend two judo clubs, but the MT, bjj and one the judo clubs are all at the same facility, so it's not inefficient at all.

Learning multiple forms, weapons, hundreds of strikes, stance training, apparatus training, etc. Some CMA by design is a longer process thatn sport styles. Nothing wrong with that...unless you want to compete. Still not a rush issue, but from a fight perspective, that model is not as efficient.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
That being said, we do groundwork. It's not as sophisticated as BJJ, but we practice ground and submission techniques from our CMA arsenal.

Hence, training in bjj.

We have 1 form totally dedicated to ground fighting.

What's it called?

[MasterKiller]

Hence, training in bjj.Kung fu striking is more sophisticated than Muay Thai. Why take Muay Thai?



What's it called? Road 7.

[Ben Gash]

Arguments about sophistication get us nowhere (and anyway, isn't that one of the sticks MMA use to beat us?).
Basically, sometimes it helps to look at things from another point of view. Ultimately, you may only take a couple of things from another system, but if they improve your expression of martial arts, then by all means.Also, there are other reasons for training at another school. If you are the most senior student especially, you may feel the need to find new sparring partners or formats to challenge you, or a new take on conditioning or impact work to take you to the next level.
We sometimes work so hard to preserve the "Art" aspect that we forget what art is about. Painters and musicians will happily draw on other influences and use them within the framework of the style they are working in.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Kung fu striking is more sophisticated than Muay Thai. Why take Muay Thai?

I see what you're getting at, but in the case of grappling, I don't think that applies. Sure, I do MT BECAUSE it's less sophisticated, and I can do 1 technique 1,000 times, as opposed to working 1,000 techniques only 1 time. I take the same philosophy with BJJ though. There are several techniques that I know, but I have a core set that I can apply from darn near anywhere. BJJ has good, solid basics that are repeatedly drilled though, and arguably superior to other styles (as far as the ground game goes) because that is the ONLY thing they do.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Arguments about sophistication get us nowhere (and anyway, isn't that one of the sticks MMA use to beat us?).


I think that's exactly why he mentioned it. We train MT because it's (seemingly) not as sophisticated, but then turn around and train BJJ which is WAY more sophisticated than the CMA groundfighting...

[TheWarriorHeart]

To Kung Lek, thanks so much for your endorsment.:rolleyes:
But I can understand your resentment of a post like this. You being a monitor and having to deal with all sorts of trolling and nonsense.

However, it is not wise to ASSume things about another person, especially based on a few posts on an internet message board. Now I am going to have to call you on it. If you would like to privately contact me I will give you all the contact info of the kung fu school I train at. You can call the sifu yourself and ask him about me ;) If you are that adamant about assuming I am a troll.
My email is TheWarri0rHeart@aol.com. Notice that the o in warrior is a zero. Or I am willing to basically offer any other reasonable method to prove that I train at a shaolin 5 animals kung fu school. I never said that I didnt like kung fu. In fact as I stated before I love doing forms at times because they bring me peace of mind and it isnt a bad workout either going through all the forms you know. This issue mainly comes down to respect. I am generally a nice guy and when I learn something I think is pretty interesting or of value I love to share it. Oh, and I have much respect for all the fighters. The guys who train to fight in the martial sports. If you have never trained for a sport like mma or boxing or what have you then you basically have no idea the training regimen involved. I am helping a guy get ready for a KOTC match right now and believe me when I say doing that for an hour and a half then training muay thai for an hour has me almost passing out or puking every time. But afterwards I feel great. Oh and Mr. Lek, would you like verification of the mma gym I train at as well?
Bottom line, not everyone takes martial arts to become a top fighter and I respect that. But if you dont take martial arts to become a fighter and it is just a "hobby" dont go acting as if you are invincible super hero whom no one could hold a candle to. While at the same time never having been in any fights outside of your point fight sparring with full gear on at your school.
And that is also a whole other issue. If you have never been in a knock down drag out brawl on the street or sparring perhaps(full contact just gloves) then in my opinion you will have no idea how to use your techniques when fight or flight adrenaline hits you. I have been a bouncer for 3 years now and seen my share of tough guys. I have even tried several techniques that did not work. For instance, anyone who believes a simple groin kick will end a fight. Not so, try that on a coked up maniac and see if he flinches. I did and I swear I kicked this guy at least 3 times around the groin area and he did not go down. But he toppled quick with a shot to the chin. All those complicated techniques really are useless when adrenaline hits you. That is when simple blows are the best bet. But hey if you have never been in a streetfight and still think you are deadly, dont take my word for it. Go to your local seedy bar and pick a fight with one of the patrons.

Disclaimer: I said I probably sounded like a jerk in my first post on this thread and obviously Kung Lek thinks so. But I am not here to appease the masses. I'm not a beat around the bush kind of guy.

[red5angel]

I see what you're getting at, but in the case of grappling, I don't think that applies. Sure, I do MT BECAUSE it's less sophisticated, and I can do 1 technique 1,000 times, as opposed to working 1,000 techniques only 1 time. I take the same philosophy with BJJ though. There are several techniques that I know, but I have a core set that I can apply from darn near anywhere. BJJ has good, solid basics that are repeatedly drilled though, and arguably superior to other styles (as far as the ground game goes) because that is the ONLY thing they do.


I think when it comes down to it, while some arts have more to them then others, every art has some core basics which are practiced over and over again.

[David Jamieson]

Ben-

I have played with the same guy your sifu works with and he is a very good practitioner. I personally think it has a lot more to do with his attitude and spirit.

He (the kyukoshin guy we are talking about) has truly an excellent attitude towards martial arts and is a diligent practitioner.

I too gained a lot from my few experiences with him. I'm sure your sifu has drawn a wealth from the guy as he is much more on an interpersonla level with him. I worked with him for a few years at a professional level in an unrelated field from martial arts and we just came to a get together to play and have had many conversations in re martial arts and training methods.

The guy has a lot of heart and is an extremely positive individual as well as one helluva fighter. I think regardless of the style he chose to pursue, he would excel at it simply because of his attitude and life experience.


Warrior Heart - Not endorsing you at all, I've read this thread opener only about ohhhh, I dunno, a thousand times? lol. Anything is possible I suppose and of course there is value in critical analysis of what one is doing and how that will serve their goals and objectives.

But I personally would've not been too worried about what others thought or said about it and continued to plod along in the direction that I felt would help me meet my objectives, period.

Good luck in your search and train smart. YOu have a lot of aggression in you made aparenmt by your statements. To get "in the zone", it is my opinion, you are going to need to defeat that first over and above any beefs you amy or may not have with others.

he who knows.... etc etc.

cheers

[Shadowboxer]

Imitation...Assimilation...Innovation

On a side note, my Sifu just smiles when cross-trainers visit and say they have x color belt in this style and y color belt in that style and z color belt in that style. He says that's great and if we ever sparred/fought you would be facing a master of Wing Chun. Oh, and he's "rolled" with BJJ blackbelts. He likes to strike them while they are on the ground, it confuses them. He teaches the Dei Tong(sp?) and has much respect for the Gracies.

Just my 2 cents...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Imitation...Assimilation...Innovation

On a side note, my Sifu just smiles when cross-trainers visit and say they have x color belt in this style and y color belt in that style and z color belt in that style. He says that's great and if we ever sparred/fought you would be facing a master of Wing Chun. Oh, and he's "rolled" with BJJ blackbelts. He likes to strike them while they are on the ground, it confuses them. He teaches the Dei Tong(sp?) and has much respect for the Gracies.

Just my 2 cents...

out of curiousity - which black belts?

[Shadowboxer]

It was years ago before I was there. I think he has some stuff on tape. I can't view his personal training tapes, maybe someday. I would guess some guys from Dallas (shrug). He was in the armed forces and has trained/travelled many places. So, I could be wrong.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel



I think when it comes down to it, while some arts have more to them then others, every art has some core basics which are practiced over and over again.


yeah, that's where the whole efficiency and simplicity thing comes in. I've never used a tornado kick in a fight or in sparring. Nor have I used simple little things, like a bear claw or a spearhand. I can safely say that I will NEVER use them. But, I had to train them because they were in the system.

[red5angel]

yeah, that's where the whole efficiency and simplicity thing comes in. I've never used a tornado kick in a fight or in sparring. Nor have I used simple little things, like a bear claw or a spearhand. I can safely say that I will NEVER use them. But, I had to train them because they were in the system.

Not sure what your trying to say here. As an aside though I have seen the tornado kick used in the real world and successfully, more then once.....
As for you never using those "simple" techniques, why not?

To me, the more I study an art the more I can put in my arsenal. It's yet another thing martial artists could argue about until the sun blows up. Some prefer it straight and simple, drilling 5 techniques over and over and over again because they can use them. For others having a "full" bag of tricks works for them.

[Merryprankster]

WarriorHeart,

Thanks for clearing up what you meant. I wasn't trying to be a ****, just curious what criteria were being used.

Good luck to you and your training.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by fa_jing
KL is right - be suspicious of anyone who shows up with a low post count and one of their first posts is like this....

However, this situation, albeit hypothetical, is a good point of discussion.

Did Kung Lek really say that? Dayyam..I resemble that remark

Now that you mention it..doesn't that sum up shadow boxing and most individual training regimes? :confused: You'll probably disaggree...but I'm still proudly resemebling :cool:

AS is the dude who has never looked at death but trains for their meeting :D

[Chang Style Novice]

I haven't read this whole conversation, but in my experience, closed-minded ignorance is vulnerable to biting, eyegouges, and pressure point fighting.

[David Jamieson]

...and getting choked out by royce.

[rogue]

Originally posted by red5angel

I think when it comes down to it, while some arts have more to them then others, every art has some core basics which are practiced over and over again. Something I've recently learned. The other part is training with people that can use those core basics. People that have many options sometimes forget about mastering the core that will get you through 80% of the situations and rather work on the fringe techniques that will be useful for 1% of them.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Oh, and he's "rolled" with BJJ blackbelts. He likes to strike them while they are on the ground, it confuses them.
Kung Lek:

You want to point out trolls? Try this guy.

As someone who is getting pretty close to being a BJJ black belt, I can tell you that by the time you reach the level of black belt in BJJ, you have had a boatload of punches thrown at you on the ground. The last thing it will do to you is confuse you. The guy who is usually confused is the Wing Chun guy who tries to throw his punches when mounted or in the guard and gets armlocked.

[David Jamieson]

darn forest is full of them! gaaaaahhhh, run! lol

what really bugs me about trolls is the electric neon fluffy hair do's...that and their unabashed nakedness (don't get any ideas kristoffer ya frightwig wearing ambiguous freak) :D

:) this is a smily

:mad: this is a smily after reading troll posts on kfm

:D this is a smily that regularly drinks it's metamucil

:( this is a smily that didn't get that third yellow stripe on it's white belt because it's kia sounded more like a wheeeee!

:confused: this is the smily that is reading this right now and doesn't realize a chain is being yanked....and it's his!

:cool: this is clearly the fonzie smily

:eek: ..courtney love?

;) in the not know

cheers

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel


Not sure what your trying to say here. As an aside though I have seen the tornado kick used in the real world and successfully, more then once.....
As for you never using those "simple" techniques, why not?

not saying that they don't work - I've seen a jump spinning back kick used. but you're not going to use EVERYTHING that's in the system, which is the point I'm making. you're going to use the ones that you are comfortable with and train the most. Having said that, I hate the bear claw and the spear hand. I know I will never use them.

Once the heart rate exceeds a certain number of beats per minute, everything that is not ingrained into your muscle memory is thrown out the window. So, the throw in form X that you only work on occasion(for example)? it's not getting used. The bear claw that I worked minimally? It ain't getting used either. Instead of spending countless training time learning hundreds of techniques, I can refine the same core set, and use them.

It's yet another thing martial artists could argue about until the sun blows up.

Agreed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Knifefighter

I can tell you that by the time you reach the level of black belt in BJJ, you have had a boatload of punches thrown at you on the ground. The last thing it will do to you is confuse you.

yeah, that's why I was wondering who it was.

[MasterKiller]

Instead of spending countless training time learning hundreds of techniques, I can refine the same core set, and use them. But that's exactly what kung fu is about. You learn 100 ways to do something, pick the 15 you like, and work them ad infinitum. You preserve the other techniques because someone with a different body type/mentality/flexibilty/strength/whatever may like another different 15 techniques. An individual molds the style to themself. That's what "flavor" is.

If your teacher only had 15 techniques to teach you, odds are, you wouldn't be able to do them all because what works for him doesn't necessarily work for you.

[SevenStar]

Agreed- Judo, bjj and MT are the same way. Out of 69+ judo throws, the avg. competitor has 3-4 bread and butter throws. Among MT schools, you have teachers that prefer knees, some that prefer boxing, etc.

Something that I learned on the mantis forum is that there were two methods of training back in the day - longfist protocol and short strike protocol. Longfist protocol is what became more popular and is the way many schools operate today. short strike protocol is the training styles like SC follow. I personally prefer the short strike method. It seems to develop fighting ability faster, IMO.

[Shadowboxer]

I said he likes to strike them. You interpreted that to mean punches. There are more weapons than that. That's what confuses them. Do you know how to get out of an armbar and/or not get in one? If yes, then so do other people.

My point was that he's tested his skills against Blackbelts in BJJ, as well as other arts, and he can still use WC on the ground, where jing and short power come in handy.

[SevenStar]

he's not saying other strikes can't be used on the ground. but by that level, you're used to that type of thing. What he threw may have worked, but KF is doubting that it worked simply because they were confused. Ask him about the matches - he may give you some info about them.

also, I'm sure we'd all like to see short power used in a grappling situation.

[Shadowboxer]

I'll ask when I get back to class.

"but KF is doubting that it worked simply because they were confused..."

Is that what you are doubting KF?

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I think what confused them was thinking Sifu did not have grappling skills/takedown defenses and that he would not be able to use his WC on the ground.

...something about closed minds...

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Perhaps I should have been more clear. I think what confused them was thinking Sifu did not have grappling skills/takedown defenses and that he would not be able to use his WC on the ground. Methinks someone is either exaggerating or giving a complete line of BS. This supposedly happend years before you started training with him? In Texas? Then this means it was either Carlos Machado, who was the only BJJ blackbelt in Texas for years, or one of his brothers who occasionally taught there... or else it was Royce, who had a training association there and did seminars. Other than that, there were no BJJ blackbelts in Texas.

[ShaolinTiger00]

lmao @ punching Carlos Machado while grappling!

stfu!

[Gangsterfist]

A while ago my sifu taught me a wing chun principal, whatever can be done with your hands, can be done with your feet as well. Tan da, Tan girk, pok da, pok girk, etc etc.

So then, could you do anything on the ground that you could do standing up?

I don't see why not. Train for it and I bet there are WCK applications that can be done while on the ground. Think of the immoveable elbow, finger jabs, palm strikes, punches, kicks, head buts, elbow, knees, etc etc. Now, I haven't trained a ton doing this, usually train some kind of wrestling on the ground, but I think that there would be some valid wing chun applications that can be done on the ground.

Now likewise there could be many applications from many different styles that could be modified somehow (or maybe not needing modification) to be applicable in ground fighting. When I was taking okinawan Karate, there were several motions on our forms that could be applied standing up and on the ground.

[Shadowboxer]

KF,

Try reading all the posts before responding. I said it was before I got there and that he was in the Armed forces and has traveled alot. So, it could have been while he was training out of the country. I said I wasn't sure. He mentioned it a while ago while we were working on the Dei Tong.

You're right BJJ is invincible and Machado can't be punched while grappling :rolleyes:

What's the title of this thread?

[red5angel]

gangsterfist, you're right, but it's something the less coherent or less well practiced members of this forum seem to forget.

Of course things are different on the ground but you certainly do not have to be a grappling expert to fight on the ground. You DO need to understand its basic principles otherwise you are fighting in the dark.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
A while ago my sifu taught me a wing chun principal, whatever can be done with your hands, can be done with your feet as well. Tan da, Tan girk, pok da, pok girk, etc etc.

So then, could you do anything on the ground that you could do standing up?

I don't see why not. Train for it and I bet there are WCK applications that can be done while on the ground. Think of the immoveable elbow, finger jabs, palm strikes, punches, kicks, head buts, elbow, knees, etc etc. Now, I haven't trained a ton doing this, usually train some kind of wrestling on the ground, but I think that there would be some valid wing chun applications that can be done on the ground.

Now likewise there could be many applications from many different styles that could be modified somehow (or maybe not needing modification) to be applicable in ground fighting. When I was taking okinawan Karate, there were several motions on our forms that could be applied standing up and on the ground.

whether or not your stuff could be used on the ground was never the issue of debate. The issue is that many people here think that you can take chin na, go to the ground, and then boom, instant ground grappling expertise in a box. It doesn't work that way. you will have to spend time on the ground figuring out how to make the techniques work, proper positioning, etc. However, doing such research is best done with the assistance of a grappler. Why? because he grapples constantly.

[Gangsterfist]

Sevenstar said: whether or not your stuff could be used on the ground was never the issue of debate. The issue is that many people here think that you can take chin na, go to the ground, and then boom, instant ground grappling expertise in a box. It doesn't work that way. you will have to spend time on the ground figuring out how to make the techniques work, proper positioning, etc. However, doing such research is best done with the assistance of a grappler. Why? because he grapples constantly.

I agree if you read my post it says I usually train some type of wrestling on the ground. Luckily for me 2 of my kung fu brothers wrestled all through highschool and one did some wrestling through college. So I am lucky to train with some ground fighters. The one who wrestled through college also did judo, and has like a brown belt or something of the like in it.

My point was there is ground fighting in your MA, it may not be obvious at first but a few things are probably there.

What I think you should train for is the fight against the untrained fighter. Someone who will tackle you get you on the ground and try to grapple you, but not like a grappler. Just like someone who is just going crazy on you. That IMO is harder to fight against than someone who has some training. Someone who just gets you on the ground and then climbs up you like some kind of monkey hitting you over and over again with no paticular technique.

In all honesty, how many people here have gotten into a real fight with other martial artists? Obviously there are circumstances like tournaments and the like where a real fight could break out. There is also full contact fighting, but you sign up for that kind of stuff, and there still are rules and regulations.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You're right BJJ is invincible and Machado can't be punched while grappling

Yeah that's pretty accurate. If you "punched" Carlos he'd probably take you to the point of breaking a limb or choking you out and stop. If you tried it again, He'd go past it.

lmao @ the mental image of MP chain punching the heavy bag in my basement last Sat night!


goofy WC'ers...

[Shadowboxer]

"pretty accurate"? Either it's invincible or it's not. Carlos would probably take one to the point of breaking a limb? Right, nobody else knows how to do that. Nobody else knows how to choke somebody out or get out of the mighty BJJ armbar :rolleyes:


BTW, how many WC'ers have you touched hands with?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
You're right BJJ is invincible and Machado can't be punched while grapplingI'm not saying that. I am saying it is pretty improbable that he rolled and started throwing punches with a BJJ black belt without it becoming a vale tudo match. Maybe you can clarify the confusion. What exactly were your instructors words when he mentioned his sessions with the BJJ guys?





Originally posted by Shadowboxer
BTW, how many WC'ers have you touched hands with? Many. That was my first MA.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist

What I think you should train for is the fight against the untrained fighter. Someone who will tackle you get you on the ground and try to grapple you, but not like a grappler.

yeah, I can see the value of that.

Just like someone who is just going crazy on you. That IMO is harder to fight against than someone who has some training. Someone who just gets you on the ground and then climbs up you like some kind of monkey hitting you over and over again with no paticular technique.

I disagree there. with the standup game, I can agree with that, because you can't control his limbs. On the ground, you can. it's not really any different as far as controlling the guy. It would actually be easier because an untrained fighter will merely flail and tire himself out.


In all honesty, how many people here have gotten into a real fight with other martial artists?

I have. Granted, it was back in high school, but it still happened. Most of the wrestlers I knew in HS were the first ones to try and fight someone. I've seen them get into many a fight. It can happen.