What is the chinese word for BUSHIDO?

[fiercest tiger]

Guys,

Does anyone know if KUNG FU has a word for bushido or is the character for bushido in chinese same or mean something different?

Does anyone have the characters for bushido?

Cheers
FT
:cool:

[MasterKiller]

maybe wude?

[Chinwoo-er]

Don't think there is one actually.

I won't consider Wude as being Bushido. Wude is more like confucian ethics with a martial flavor to it. With concepts like benevolence, rightiousness, rituals, loyalty etc being the same but espressed differently. Bushido on the other hand IMO is an ethical conduct that the samurai developed (almost) independently of commonly accepted moral values. the Bushi is basically a very unique class of people. I don't think there is such a class in Chinese society. Mainly because the "warriors" of Chinese society needed to go through exams. Hence, any John Doe who have got martial(military) education can hold military office. But the Japanese samurai status, despite being trained from birth, can be inherited. Hence, they are qualitatively different by blood. Most samurais back then feels great separation between themselves and the commoners. Believing themselves to be superior in terms of bloodline and heritage. Anyway, Bushido in this sense becomes a kind of ethics exclusive to the samurai while wude is more like a form of interpretation of a larger ethical code shared by all.

[apoweyn]

Wow. I'll be truly impressed if you get a better answer than that. Nicely said, Chinwooer.

[GeneChing]

Wushutao. That's a literal translation of the characters, but it's not really used as such by the Chinese. Wude would more accurately describe the concept/meaning.

[WanderingMonk]

The closest chinese concept would be "xia yi" or "the ethics of xia shi". "xia shi" means swordsman. "yi" means ethics. Not the "yi" for intent.

wm

[lkfmdc]

Hey Gene, I think the second charatere is "Shi" not "Shu" as in the one that looks like + but with a _ underneath it.... person to Japanese people

martial person path/way

[Tiger_Yin]

Wu Shi Dao

[fiercest tiger]

Do you think that kung fu is missing the wushi dao comparing to the japanese bushido? What i mean is the attitude of the practitioner?

Does the characters for wushi dao the same as bushido?

lkfmdc,

So wushi dao means the Way of the a martial artist?

Does anyone have the chinee characters or know where to get it?


Regards
FT:)

[Chinwoo-er]

As I have told my students before.

Never judge the quality of one culture using the standards and values of another.

I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is nothing "missing" in Chinese Martial Arts in terms of character cultivation. As there is no such thing as a unique warrior class in chinese society, there is no need for a unique warrior ethical code.



btw lkfmdc, I would personally translate Shi with "intellectual" rather than "person". In my understand of Chinese (which is rather limited I must admit) the term 'Shi' is not given to to anyone. Only some kind of people who have higher education level of some sort.

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks and i have to agree with you, there isnt anything missing in chinese kung fu.

Just looking for some opinions!:)

Cheers
FT

[joedoe]

FT, I don't think CMA really needs a parallel idea. I think Bushido is a fairly Japanese sort of concept and fits the culture pretty well. I think that the concept of wude fits CMA better. Ultimately I think attitude is a personal thing anyway, and to try to proscribe an attitude does not do justice to the individuality of the practitioner. After all, we all practice MA for different reasons so a blanket attitude is not really going to cut it.

[fiercest tiger]

TRUE, i was just trying to see if the chinese had a similar code or word to describe the chinese martial artist.

gung hei faat choy

[joedoe]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
TRUE, i was just trying to see if the chinese had a similar code or word to describe the chinese martial artist.

gung hei faat choy

Fair enough. I personally think wu de/mo duk is a similar sort of code though not quite the same.

gun hey fa choy to you too. Have a good one, and good luck to your lion dance team :)

[WanderingMonk]

FT,

I attached the Bushido characters in gif format.

wm

[fiercest tiger]

wandering monk, Thanks mate appreciate it! Do you have the chinese characters for mo duk or wu de?

Joe Doe,

You guys doing anything for the new year festivals? Do you guys do lion dancing?

FT:)

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
wandering monk, Thanks mate appreciate it! Do you have the chinese characters for mo duk or wu de?

FT:)

FT,

Here you go. I got a chinese word processor, so I can type out most characters and just screen capture it.

wm

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Chinwoo-er
Wude is more like confucian ethics with a martial flavor to it. With concepts like benevolence, rightiousness, rituals, loyalty etc being the same but espressed differently. Bushido on the other hand IMO is an ethical conduct that the samurai developed (almost) independently of commonly accepted moral values.I agree with a lot of what you said, but that is not quite correct.

1) Bushido was founded and developed along the precisely the same confucian ethics.
2) The samurai were originally a trained meritocracy, though I'm splitting hairs (or should I say 'heirs'?! :rolleyes: :D ) cos the hereditary system followed a short while later.

The 'founder' of the state of Japan, 'Prince' Shotoku Taishi (574-622), was also the founder of the feudal system based on the samurai. At that time, from what is written in the annal, the samurai were trained, tested and qualified mounted archers, although the hereditary system followed maybe but half a century later.

The principles of bushido were not established until the Kamakura Period (1192 - 1333?) by which time buddhism had a firm hold, but it was still the confucianism which held sway. The principles of bushido perhaps reached their most polished in the Edo Period at the same time as the confucianist scholars reached their most polished fusion of zen and the pillars of their own belief.

The principles of confucianism developed hand in hand with the samurai in Japan, and certainly not independent of any other moral system. Indeed the samurai were supposed to be the pillars of the philosophy underpinning the whole of Japanese society.

The confucianist ethics are still present in modern budo. The five pleats on the kendoka's hakama represent jin (humanity/compassion), gi (justice), rei (politeness), chi (wisdom), and shin (loyalty): the Five Pillars of Confucianism.

The other pillars of bushido are also directly from confucianism, including; chusei (allegiance), gisei (sacrifice), shingi (faithfulness), renchi (difficult to translate but roughly, selfless purity), reigi (courtesy/decency), keppaku (innocence), kenyaku (thrift), shoubu (martial virtue), meiyo (honour/credit), jyouai (affection).

Thus the following statement:
Anyway, Bushido in this sense becomes a kind of ethics exclusive to the samurai while wude is more like a form of interpretation of a larger ethical code shared by all. works more nicely thus:
Anyway, Bushido in this sense becomes a kind of ethics exclusive to the samurai while also being a form of interpretation of a larger ethical code shared by all. despite being seemingly contradictory. (Of course, the marrying of the contradictory aspects is where zen comes in!!! :D )

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Hey Gene, I think the second charatere is "Shi" not "Shu" as in the one that looks like + but with a _ underneath it.... person to Japanese people

martial person path/way The original meaning of 'shi' in Japanese is (otoko) 'man' and in fact (samurai) 'samurai/warrior', not 'person'. The original meaning of 'bu' is (takedakeshii) 'ferocious', despite being made up of the radicals 'stop' and 'spear'/'spearman'... which somewhat makes a mess of modern peaceful budoka's interpretations of 'stopping a spear' meaning 'peace', although in the wider context of (confucian/zen) samurai ethics and their (albeit often failed) ideals of protecting the common people it still makes some sense.

But anyway, the literal, oldest meaning of 'bushido' is 'the way of the ferocious warrior' though as most scholars of Japanese will tell you kanji in a compound do not necessarily keep their individual meaning.

Have I impressed Ap yet?! :D :D

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Mat
The original meaning of 'bu' is (takedakeshii) 'ferocious', despite being made up of the radicals 'stop' and 'spear'/'spearman'... which somewhat makes a mess of modern peaceful budoka's interpretations of 'stopping a spear'

uhem..

I don't about the Japanese kanji, but the "Bu" character is composed of the Chinese radical for "stop" and "conflict", hence "stop conflict". It might not make much sense in Japanese to "stop spears", it makes perfect sense in chinese, "to stop conflict".

wm

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk


uhem..

I don't about the Japanese kanji, but the "Bu" character is composed of the Chinese radical for "stop" and "conflict", hence "stop conflict". It might not make much sense in Japanese to "stop spears", it makes perfect sense in chinese, "to stop conflict".

wm No.

'Conflict' is also a more modern reading. The original in Chinese is a pictograph of a spear carried by a man, and means 'spear' or 'spearman'. Thus the original meaning in Chinese and Japanese was 'stop spearman' or 'stop spear'.

[Chinwoo-er]

Mat, unfortunately, I must disagree with you there.

While I agree entirely that confucianism and buddhism inspired and influenced the developement of Bushido (hence my (almost)), you will find that Samurais hardly every makes any references to it in their texts unless they are tracing roots. Rather, they merely make a reference to their warrior codes. I would say that they took elements of moral conduct, and then severed the link to them which in turn established their own unique identity. So when a samurai is refering to things like rightousness, they are more likely to be saying 'rightousness in bushido' rather than 'rightiousness in confucianism'.

However, if you look at the culture of CMA artists, they make constant identifications to confucianism in many areas of their education. The concept of a 'gentleman' is still something that they strive for. They merely use a martial artist approach to it. If any, Wude is rather a less known term that is used. Mainly passed on orally. You are considered an 'incomplete' martial artist unless you have some basic understanding of confucianism ethics and not just wude

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Mat
No.

'Conflict' is also a more modern reading. The original in Chinese is a pictograph of a spear carried by a man, and means 'spear' or 'spearman'. Thus the original meaning in Chinese and Japanese was 'stop spearman' or 'stop spear'.

According to this page, the "spear" radical when use with "gan" means conflicts, the first usage is in "Lun Yu" (the chronicle of Confucius's teaching).

http://140.111.1.22/clc/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=59291&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=%A4%E0

In another page, it records the usage the pharse "stop conflict" (the two radical of the "bu" kanji) was first used in "north and south" dynasty era.

http://140.111.1.22/clc/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=105435&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=%A4%E0

The earliest recorded usage (found in preserved records) of "bu" was in Sun Tzu's "Art of War" (6th century BC)

http://140.111.1.22/clc/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=153358&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=%AAZ

The character "BU' came before the confucian text and "north and south dynasty", but, I find your statement that "conflict" is a modern reading, unconvincing.

wm

[joedoe]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
wandering monk, Thanks mate appreciate it! Do you have the chinese characters for mo duk or wu de?

Joe Doe,

You guys doing anything for the new year festivals? Do you guys do lion dancing?

FT:)

I think some of the guys and girls are doing demos at one of the temples in Cabramatta. A bunch of the guys from the Cabra class do lion dance, so I guess they will be doing that through Cabra

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I checked again, instead of just blarting off the top of my head and you are completely correct Mr Monk. The use of 'bu' in Japanese postdates its use as 'conflict'. My dictionary records its origins as being 'halberd' and 'stop', but that together it's spearman.


Whereas you on the other hand, Mr Er... :p :D You are welcome to disagree, but you are still wrong. Confucianism and Bushido are completely indivisible, as are Zen and Bushido, and in Japan, Confucianism and Zen, but especially Confucianism and Bushido. There are plenty of direct references to the Confucian virtues in the texts. I will find some.

When are you suggesting they severed the links? And just because they didn't label everything in their text with a direct page number reference and bibliography to Confucius, doesn't mean that it had become a separate philosophy, in fact it was because samurai were schooled in confucianist ethics (not to mention don't forget, many samurai through the ages, with the probable exception of the Heian studied them directly form the chinese classics themselves) from the year dot, so they didn't need the reference.


The concept of a 'gentleman' is still something that they strive for. The samurai also. The 'shi' character in bushido means man as stated earlier, but to be more specific, it means gentleman. See also the list of ethics I listed in a previous post. Your definition of gentleman is closer to your maybe romantic idea of the Chinese (warrior-) gentleman, but although it may not suit your definition the samurai ethics were directly in pursuit of being what they termed as a gentleman.

They merely use a martial artist approach to it. Two points. What other aspects of being a gentleman are there? The samurai from the Heian studied tea ceremony, calligraphy, poetry, classics, court dance and many other gentlemanly pursuits aside from martial arts. They practised well-rounded gentlemanly arts (TM!), through a solid confucian base and zen sensibilities.

Two: if your argument is that the samurai warrior ethics were separated from confucianist ethics by their formulation of a distinct warrior code based on their immersion in martial practice, I would have to say that the Chinese martial artist (to borrow your expression, despite disagreeing with it: the Chinese ma were even less a ****genous group than the samurai you keep talking about with no reference to time or development over 13-14 centuries) with their many hours a day training regimen were far from 'merely' using a martial approach.
If any, Wude is rather a less known term that is used. Mainly passed on orally. You are considered an 'incomplete' martial artist unless you have some basic understanding of confucianism ethics and not just wudeThe very fact that it was passed on orally would ensure that you needed to keep explicitly referring to the original concepts, whereas the samurai codes being in some part written down would allow for more oblique references.

A hereditary samurai with no background in Confucian ethics through bushido or distinclty would soon fail and become outcast or, more likely, cannon fodder on the battlefield.

Again, I'll refer you back to my hakama. All kendoka are taught jin gi rei chi shin as the pleats of the hakama. They also know that these are the Five Pillars of Confucianism. The way you are interpreting it, it is as if at some point they suddenly decided, these ethics were only those of bushido. When did they decide this? Which text lead you to believe this? The answer is they didn't: Confucianism is an instrinsic part of bushido, and yet retains its distinctness.

[Chinwoo-er]

you are still wrong

Strange. I wonder why it is you need to enforce that. Well, if you want to use the right/wrong ways of approaching something that is clearing a matter of opinon, I guess there is no point is discussing the matter as I am rather confident that you are unlikely to admit that fact that you are wrong.

[Mr Punch]

Why so touchy?! :confused:

Of course I can say

IMHO you may be incorrect.

Or I shorten it to 'you are wrong'. Of course it's still IMHO.

And while you doubtless contend that "you will find that" followed by repeating an opinion for which you have presented no evidence is acceptible debating style, my saying 'you are wrong' and giving you some evidence from

my experience with a modern budo/bushido concept as explained to me by my kendo teacher, who is a professor of Medieval English Literature with particular reference to contemporary Japanese ethics and literature,

a pretty much direct translation of my own synthesis of definitions of 'bushido' and 'Confucianism' and 'Shotoku Taishi' plus bits and bobs from 'Heian Jidai' and 'Kamakura Jidai' from my Japanese-Japanese dictionary spelling out to Japanese people the origins of Bushido being in Confucianism (without even having had time to check the samurai classics themselves)...

and you've come up with what evidence? What reference to any kind of timeline? What reference to the texts you keep talking about?

I've already conceded to Wandering Monk that I was partially inadvertantly blowing it out me arse with regards to his point, so what makes you think you can't persuade me? Is it because you're wrong? :D

It may be a matter of opinion to you that the samurai code and confucianist ethics are separate entities, but to me and around 90 million Japanese people it is a matter of fact that bushido is part of confucianism and vice versa.

One last point: that whole sentence was adressed to you, Mr Er... could it have been that I wasn't being wholly serious in tone? To spell it out for you: please get the sand out of your vagina before you bring your phenomenally persuasive arguments to the table.

I remain,
:D :rolleyes: :p !!!

[fiercest tiger]

great post everyone, so the chinese warrior gentleman is like a Lover and a fighter!! hehehe like me.


FT

[WanderingMonk]

I saw some documentary on sino-japanese war and watched some anime lately, so I started to think about the bushido relations with confucism and buddhism.

Certainly, I am only a casual observer, but one practice of bushido, hari kari (suicide) is strictly forbidden in buddhism and confucism.

It violates the tenet of buddhism because every being has buddha potential and the act of suicide is the destruction of an opportunity to achieve enlightenment.

It violates the tenet of compassion in confucism, which require compassion for oneself and others. Not to mention, the prohibition against self-mutaliation.

Yet, it is treated as an act of honorable death in bushido.

Another criticism of bushido is its fascination with death. Its abuse of zen doctrine to promote killing.

It might had borrowed from confucism and buddhism, but in its core from casual observation, it seem hallow of true buddhist and confucian values.

[GeneChing]

You're totally right about my shi/shu typo earlier. I was working on a big wushu piece so sometimes when I type w - u - s - h, the u follows automatically. My bad.

gotta mind my i's and u's around here... shut. ;)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
Certainly, I am only a casual observer, but one practice of bushido, hari kari (suicide) is strictly forbidden in buddhism and confucism.
...
It violates the tenet of compassion in confucism, which require compassion for oneself and others. Not to mention, the prohibition against self-mutaliation.

Yet, it is treated as an act of honorable death in bushido. A few points:

1) 'Thou shalt not kill' is one of the ten most fundamental tenets of Christianity, but nobody would say that the Crusaders for example, or the colonialist armies in the US, Australia, and just about anywhere else were not Christians. Or Moslem terrorists, or the mass Jewish suicides at Messadah, or countless other examples of people who believe they are following a religion, yet ignore its basic concepts.

2) You seem to be evaluating of 'compassion' with fundamentally Western standards. It was considered compassionate and merciful to allow a vanquished/disgraced warrior to kill himself. It was often considered an act of compassion for the surviving family too, who would then be spared the humiliation of association with failure, and possibly being put to death. Quite the opposite of being against compassion, suicide was considered to be a refined distillation of compassion.

3) This act of suicide was often considered to be firmly upholding another pillar of confucianism: that of 'shin' or fidelity/loyalty to one's lord, and family, and ancestors. Again, it was their ultimate expression of that tenet of confucianism.


Another criticism of bushido is its fascination with death. Its abuse of zen doctrine to promote killing.Again this depends on the era you are talking about, but even then, the Hagakure, Musashi, and the modern text 'Bushido' all stress NOT being obsessed with death. The Hagakure (which is a bit of an atypical samurai text anyway) talks about death a lot, but preparedness, which is again a central point of many schools of Buddhism: that death is just part of a natural process, and its zen refinement that you should live every moment as though it is your last, not as an act of morbid nihilism, but as an act of celebration in the humility, compassion and frailty of mortal existence.

In tone, Musashi comes across to me in the brief autobiographical bits as another old warrior humbled by age and the often regrettable experience of having become skilled in taking other people's lives, much like accounts of vets from the Wars, or the Vietnam War, and many others. Have you read Takuan's letters? Takuan was a rather colourful zen monk who became Musashi's spiritual adviser, with increasing frequency and seriousness as Musashi got older and faced his own mortality closer and closer. I recommend them for anyone with an interest in the crossovers between zen and samurai.

If you are talking about the exhortation of brutal mindful atrocity in the Second World War, that has more to do with State-sponsored Shintoism, the belief that the Emperor is God, and the associated militarism, and a hideous yet somewhat inevitable perversion of the death-throes of older samurai values.

I think.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Mat
A few points:

2) You seem to be evaluating of 'compassion' with fundamentally Western standards. It was considered compassionate and merciful to allow a vanquished/disgraced warrior to kill himself. It was often considered an act of compassion for the surviving family too, who would then be spared the humiliation of association with failure, and possibly being put to death. Quite the opposite of being against compassion, suicide was considered to be a refined distillation of compassion.


What kind of disgrace merits suicide in bushdio?

I don't think my idea of compassion is based on a western standard. My buddhist teacher takes the stand that even the worst criminals should not be put to death. They should get life sentence. Partially because these criminals when they come back into the world (many lives from now) if they were executed, they will be even more angry. Partially because killing incur bad karma. Partially, because of compassion and the general prohibition of taking life. Hence, I don't feel it is necessarily a western standard.



3) This act of suicide was often considered to be firmly upholding another pillar of confucianism: that of 'shin' or fidelity/loyalty to one's lord, and family, and ancestors. Again, it was their ultimate expression of that tenet of confucianism.

Chinese believe dying for a just lord like any other society. Faithful to a just lord. Yet, there were chinese tyrants who were overthrown, and a couple vassels starved to themselves to death because their personal devotion to the king/emperor. In the old chinese history text, it (so few people sacrificed themselves) was sometime cited as evidence of how unjust an emperor/king was. Although these vassels' decisions to starve themselves to death were respected as personal acts of devotion, I don't think it was necessarily honorable.

Correct me if I am wrong but based on my casual observation, in bushido, it seem to be expected of every vassels to carry this (suicide) out regardless of whether or not a lord was just. If my observation is correct, then wouldn't it be a blind devotion? Confucian thoughts don't support blind devotion.



In tone, Musashi comes across to me in the brief autobiographical bits as another old warrior humbled by age and the often regrettable experience of having become skilled in taking other people's lives, much like accounts of vets from the Wars, or the Vietnam War, and many others. Have you read Takuan's letters? Takuan was a rather colourful zen monk who became Musashi's spiritual adviser, with increasing frequency and seriousness as Musashi got older and faced his own mortality closer and closer. I recommend them for anyone with an interest in the crossovers between zen and samurai.

Just for general info, Is this available in English?



If you are talking about the exhortation of brutal mindful atrocity in the Second World War, that has more to do with State-sponsored Shintoism, the belief that the Emperor is God, and the associated militarism, and a hideous yet somewhat inevitable perversion of the death-throes of older samurai values.

I think.

most chinese's contact to Japanese's bushido is through the WWII experiences, so my view is certainly bias against bushido to say the very least.

[Mr Punch]

Takuan (http://www.textkit.com/support-textkit/support-item_id-087011851X-search_type-AsinSearch-locale-us.html)

And yeah, while I agree with you about Chinese contact with the Japanese I would argue that it came more out of political colonialist expansionism rather than the classical tenets of bushido, which of the ones I've read, nowhere deal with expansionism, institutional militarism (although it can be said itself to be the ultimate distillation of personal attitude to institutional militarism), aggressive nationalism etc. No time to elaborate now.