Just curious?

[red5angel]

If anyone here on the KUNGFU magazine forum actually pactice kungfu, chinese TMA, that sort of thing? Or has this place been taken over by "Reality fighting"- grappling-traditional sucks - types?;)

[Judge Pen]

Well, I practice SD, so I think that counts. :D

[MasterKiller]

You can't have a decent KF conversation without some grappling meat-head jacking the thread to boast about the inadequacies of CMA, so the real KF people just talk about movies and beer. The more movies you talk about, the better your kung fu. Currently, CSN is the Grandmaster.

[rogue]

Haven't all those wins in UFC, K-1 and Pride by TCMA put to rest that old argument yet?

And SS doesn't count because that isn't real Kung Fu.:D

[Suntzu]

And SS doesn't count because that isn't real Kung Fu. aww shucks..... i guess i don't than.... 'cuz rouge said so.....

[Ralphie]

Yes.

[rogue]

Suntzu, When you can chi blast a chicken with those gloves on then you'll be doing kung fu, otherwise you're just regressing to kickboxing.:p

[red5angel]

at the risk of starting an argument I don't really view sanshou or sanda as traditional, although that certainly doesn't take away from their viability as fighting arts.

I just think it's funny how the internet reflects trends and apparently is not reflecting reality. I know what goes on in the reality fighting venues, KFC, Pride, all that but for the "average fighter" I have come across all sorts on both sides of the fence. I've gotten kind of sick of the whole sport vs. reality thing, comparing the fighters in UFC or National Sanshou competitions to the average martial artist is ridiculous, like saying Softball isn't viable as a sport because most soft ball players can't play as well as professional baseball players.
It turns out I've met quite a few good martial artist in the last several months, fought a few, worked out with a few. I have found any relationship to "good fighter" except for a desire to train and a realistic approach. One of the grapplers who is teaching me nigh untouchable on the average. He competes nationally so he trains much harder then anyone else. I train with a guy who studies Shaolin longfist and is probably one of the better fighters I have met. All of them have of course done some digging into all aspects of fighting. I 've come to the conclusion that for the average guy, studying any sort of martial arts, as long as the teacher is knowledgeable and that student applies themselves, can hold their own on the street.

[rogue]

but shouldn't any martial art, sport or traditional, have reality at it's core?

[MasterKiller]

The reality is most real 1 on 1 fights end in about 10 seconds, after one guy hits the other square in the head.

The other reality is that the best fighters you will encounter on the street never trained in anything.

[Ralphie]

R5,

That's very sensible. Most guys who do "reality fighting" or TCMA are doing it as a passing hobby, and are usually average at best. They rarely are able to put it all together, and will specialize in one format, like groundfighting. Most will quit after obtaining a certain goal. The venue doesn't eradicate human nature.

[Ralphie]

but shouldn't any martial art, sport or traditional, have reality at it's core?

What does that mean? Are you insinuating Karate and TKD don't have reality at it's core?

[Suntzu]

Suntzu, When you can chi blast a chicken with those gloves on then you'll be doing kung fu, otherwise you're just regressing to kickboxing. welkmnsnlm,s......... d@mn gloves....... like i was trying to say....u may be taking some of these 'conversations' personal… I guess 'meat-heads' aren't allowed in your secret society discussions?… if YOUR training methods work for YOU… the the 'inadequacies' that are pointed out shouldn't rub you the wrong way… I would guess... if it works for you... than explain the hows and whys or sit back and watch the flames... people have different goals in their training.... some want to beat the bully up like as soon as possible... some want to make the hundreds traveling around and entertaining crowds in dirty rings and cages throughout... some want to be able to sit in horse stance for 72 hours at a time... some need to take down a crackhead without getting clobbered by the MD 20/20 bottle he's carring.... so the training methods that work for you or me wont work for someone else... some people don't even know other training methods are out there... and some believe that THIS method will work for them when in reality it WONT....

[red5angel]

Masterkiller, I completely disagree on both points. Most fights seem to drag out for quite some time, much longer then 10 seconds and often after a few smacks to the head. As for "best" fighters on the street, successful street fighters who have no official training might be more numerous then trained fighters but I cannot agree that they are better then a good majority of trained persons.


Rogue, absolutely but I said that in my post already.


I have found any relationship to "good fighter" except for a desire to train and a realistic approach

what I've discovered on my own is that almost every style of fighting translates to fighting in the real world in some way or another. Some may take a longer path, and in my opinion, that's ok as long as you aren't going to rush out and start picking fights at bars but as long as you are realistic, and reasonable I don't think it really matters. The fact is most people do not compete and I think it's unreasonable to believe that those arts or sports are more inclined to be more proficient at fighting then anyone else. Those who are studying those arts are trainnig much harder then about 95% of the martial artists out there.
Sadly some arts have fallen to a sort of mysticism that convinces their practitioners that with little or no training beyond their art will suffice, and what I mean by that is that some understanding of all ranges of combat, and some physical training just to maintain a reasonable level of health.

[rogue]

Most fights seem to drag out for quite some time, much longer then 10 seconds and often after a few smacks to the head. Outside the ring that depends upon how much the parties want to take each other out.


people have different goals in their training.... some want to beat the bully up like as soon as possible... some want to make the hundreds traveling around and entertaining crowds in dirty rings and cages throughout... some want to be able to sit in horse stance for 72 hours at a time... some need to take down a crackhead without getting clobbered by the MD 20/20 bottle he's carring.... so the training methods that work for you or me wont work for someone else Suntzu, outside of "some want to be able to sit in horse stance for 72 hours at a time" don't the other goals have more in common than differences? And if so won't most training methods transfer from one to the other?

[MasterKiller]

Most fights seem to drag out for quite some time, much longer then 10 seconds and often after a few smacks to the head. Just about every real fight I've ever seen/been involved with was very short and quick. One person establiches domincance quickly and it's over. The winner might keep pounding the other guy, but I've seen very few fights where the fighters exhcanged more than 2 blows a piece. Of course, that's just my experiece.


As for "best" fighters on the street, successful street fighters who have no official training might be more numerous then trained fighters but I cannot agree that they are better then a good majority of trained persons. They aren't better. But the majority of the people out there causing/getting into fights aren't the type of people who train 15 hours a week to fight. That doesn't mean they aren't dangerous, though, and a lot of people who DO train underestimate natural ability and mind set sometimes. The best fighter I've ever seen in real life was a small, stocky half-Korean/half-Black guy who literally demolished people all the time because he got off on it and thought he had something to prove. He never spent 1 minute in a boxing/kung fu/BJJ/Judo studio.

[Suntzu]

And if so won't most training methods transfer from one to the other? depends on the school and the method.... i've been to schools where you do the same 2 or 3 movements for what seems like forever.... in judo for instance... from day one that you walk in the door you are throwing and being thrown.... if little Billy is being bullied it would make no sense for him to practice horse stance punching for 2 months and not hit or get hit.... he's better off getting his older brother/cousin or whatever to just beat some tuffness into him... now if little Billy wants a blackbelt than go 'tradtional'....but if Billy's mom took him the TKD world or whereever that might not be the best place for him to learn to tool his bully... all tho that might be a good place for all the other 'stuff' like discipline, social and all of the other stuff from the commercials......
if some dude wants to compete... why would he go to someplace that doesn't produce competitors... doesn't train with ring endurance in mind and doesn't hit....
the thirty-five year old that need to get away from his nagging wife... he has a bad knee.... is the Lion's den the best place for him to train?... is he really worried about Bad Bad Leroy Brown?....

[red5angel]

"Outside the ring that depends upon how much the parties want to take each other out. "

That's one factor, the other is lack of skill, and still another is that the body is more durable then we sometimes seem to remember or realize.

[Oso]

yes.


FTR, I go to my meathead meeting right after my secret society meeting...but it's hell keeping the hand signs straight.
:p

(edited for poor typing)

[red5angel]

Masterkiller - thanks for adding that it is your experience. Mine is much different, most fights in my experience have been longer struggles but not all.
As for street fighters vs martial artist, I'm not saying that you don't have good street fighters who have no official training, I'm essentially not discounting natural ability and agressiveness, I just don't agree that most good street fighters are just naturally ferocious but with no skill.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Oso
FTR, I go to my meathead meeting right after my secret society meeting...but it's hell keeping he hand signs straight.
:p

LOL!

[Oso]

Why is this thread/discussion any different than any other one about the same thing?

:confused: :confused: :confused:


no debate will ever settle this silly argument.

strap 'em on and step in with what you got and hopefully learn something in the process...







...ok, I think I'm merging into 'old and crabby'.

[apoweyn]

Cheer yourself up and visit my website. Fencing vids. [/pimp]

[lkfmdc]

I am going to resist the urge to post in this thread :D

[Unmatchable]

ufc = ***** sport.

There is some kung fu competing in San Shou.

[red5angel]

I'm not discussing whether one is better then another, from any angle you want to look at it. It just doesn't seem like there are a whole lot of KF guys on this forum anymore and I think alot of it is fad following.

[scotty1]

I am! I am!:)

But then again to someone whose definition of traditional isbowing,uniforms,line drills etc. then I'm not.

But I think in a more realistic sense then I am. Wahey!

Becuase although we train tai chi, and fulfill all the requirements of a 'traditional tai chi school', we also work strength and conditioning, ring endurance, takedowns etc. so I really don't feel the need forany MMA training.

[Suntzu]

It just doesn't seem like there are a whole lot of KF guys on this forum anymore and I think alot of it is fad following. as opposed to?........ that's your call....

[red5angel]

Suntzu - the martial arts are as faddish as some other aspects of our society. Back in the 70's and 80's it was karate and TKD, before that it was kungfu, now its grappling and "reality fighting". When kungfu was big it was because of the movies. People wanted to look like that, and fight like they did in those movies.
Karate and TKD started doing large scale competitions and branching out into chains of dojos, then people began to take those.
UFC hit the scene and every decided that grappling and "reality fighting" is the way to go.
There's even a not so small movement in the "martial arts" community towards for your health type workouts, taichi, some others.
None of these fads really invalidates any of those classes of arts, kungfu, TKD, karate, grappling, all of them can be used effectively in a "real fight", or in the ring if you just train apropriately, but when I stated on this forum a little over 4 years ago there were quite a few actual kungfu guys on the forum who appeared to be studying traditional arts- buy the way, some people use "traditional" as nearly a bad word on this forum in particular but elsewhere as well, I do not - and suddenly the amount of grappling and "reality based" martial artists sky rocketed over especially the last 2 years.

[MasterKiller]

There are plenty of traditional guys here, R5. They just don't scream as loud as the modern guys.;)

[apoweyn]

Red5angel,

How do you see yourself fitting on that spectrum now? You sound a bit like you did when you first got here. (Please, don't take that as a criticism. I'm just interested in your line of thinking.)

In a sense, it's an unfair question. I can't really imagine how I'd answer it myself.


Stuart B.

[KC Elbows]

Good thread, R5.

I practice a tma. And I fully agree on meeting good fighters and how there doesn't seem to be much discernable pattern based on style regarding who is good. I know one teacher who is somewhat lame, and one of his students is an amazing fighter. I know some mma guys who aren't particularly good, and some who are very good. I know a bunch of tai chi people who aren't inspiring, but I've been fortunate to meet six or seven really impressive tai chi exponents.

By the same token, my style is not common, so the topic doesn't come up much here.

Anyway, anyone who thinks studying style X will make them a good fighter is probably insane, since I've heard just about everyone on here gripe about multiple slackers/criers in their classes, and even the suggestion that separate classes be held for them, which means that the slackers/gripers in any style outnumber the serious practitioners, probably in all styles. Which suggests that the style can only do what you do with it.

I think some methods are better used as portions of a curriculum(mainly kicking arts, solely ground arts, solely stand up arts) than whole styles on their own, but aside from that, I think there's more to choose from than some mma crusaders would like people to choose from.

And since most tma are not exclusively empty hand based, I think there's room enough for both. I know I made this point before, but I'll still put a guy with live steel above any unarmed man. Of course, the question then becomes "fencer versus chinese sword stylist". But that's complicated, because are we talking competition fencer, or european stylist who has a broader range of knowledge than epee, sabre, and foil, instead including shield and dagger and armoured fighting and all. In which case, there's several groups that do train that way, again with varying degrees of proficiency, some lame as all hell, some excellent.

[red5angel]

There are plenty of traditional guys here, R5. They just don't scream as loud as the modern guys.


Some anyway!

Ap - as I said before I don't have a problem with cross training, and if your goal is to compete then it's necessary. I guess it grows tiring seeing all the arguments. If there has been one consistant truth in my martial experience so far it's that ultimately most about 98%, martial artists aren't have as good as they would like to be and not do to humility but lack of will to train hard enough. Of course admittedly most martial artist do it as a hobby so no big deal that's their perogative. I do get tired of seeing the infighting, internal vs external, reality vs. traditional, grappling vs. striking. It's such a ridiculous arument when it comes to it. This is mainly why I rarely return to this forum anymore.

ultimately the point of this thread was just to find out who out there is still training traditional martial arts. I find it ironic that a forum called the KUNGFU MAGAZINE FORUM seems to be filled mostly with non kungfu guys.

With the big push for reality based fighting I have now met 6 people who I consider ot be excellent fighters, 2 are grapplers - one studies muy thai as well, 3 are kungfu guys one of those plus another guy also study TKD. these guys are all good. They may not last long in a UFC ring in their current stats but that certainly doen't make them less effective fighters since there is always going ot be someone else out there better then you.

[Suntzu]

I agree… MA IS faddish… there is something for everyone… the movie/UFC fan boys… the people I need of someone to follow(worship)… people that like to compete(be it forms or cage fighting)… people that need to protect themselves daily……… maybe over the past couple of years those people found out that "traditional" wasn't the direction they wanted to go... maybe they are too busy actually doing work at their job to post... i don't know...

[Suntzu]

I guess it grows tiring seeing all the arguments.arguing helps the work day move along a little faster.....
I find it ironic that a forum called the KUNGFU MAGAZINE FORUM seems to be filled mostly with non kungfu guys. that's by YOUR definition of KUNG FU... now if it said CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS MAGAZINE AND EVERYTHING ELSE GETS THE GASFACE... than i see your point....

[red5angel]

I'm not opposing the idea of intermixing, I'm not even saying it's necessarily a bad thing suntzu, just wondering where they all went?

kungfu guys in the mist.......

[Suntzu]

just wondering where they all went? they are in some old chinese dudes basement in horse stance and can't come out to play....

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
Ap - as I said before I don't have a problem with cross training, and if your goal is to compete then it's necessary. I guess it grows tiring seeing all the arguments. If there has been one consistant truth in my martial experience so far it's that ultimately most about 98%, martial artists aren't have as good as they would like to be and not do to humility but lack of will to train hard enough. Of course admittedly most martial artist do it as a hobby so no big deal that's their perogative. I do get tired of seeing the infighting, internal vs external, reality vs. traditional, grappling vs. striking. It's such a ridiculous arument when it comes to it. This is mainly why I rarely return to this forum anymore.

I agree. I get fed up with the arguing as well. And with myself when I contribute to the arguing.


ultimately the point of this thread was just to find out who out there is still training traditional martial arts. I find it ironic that a forum called the KUNGFU MAGAZINE FORUM seems to be filled mostly with non kungfu guys.

Well, I won't lie to you. This saddens me a bit. I know this is technically supposed to be a kungfu forum. But I'd like to believe that various non-kungfu guys (myself included) add to rather than take away from this forum. So while it may be ironic, I think the bigger tragedy would be (is?) when the number of arguments and trolls outweigh the valuable contributions.


With the big push for reality based fighting I have now met 6 people who I consider ot be excellent fighters, 2 are grapplers - one studies muy thai as well, 3 are kungfu guys one of those plus another guy also study TKD. these guys are all good. They may not last long in a UFC ring in their current stats but that certainly doen't make them less effective fighters since there is always going ot be someone else out there better then you.

I hear ya.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

I agree. I get fed up with the arguing as well. And with myself when I contribute to the arguing.

yep.



This saddens me a bit. I know this is technically supposed to be a kungfu forum. But I'd like to believe that various non-kungfu guys (myself included) add to rather than take away from this forum. So while it may be ironic, I think the bigger tragedy would be (is?) when the number of arguments and trolls outweigh the valuable contributions.

Absolutely and I thought I would mention it when I posted but just didn't get around to it. When I began on this forum there was still a pretty good mix of arts out there, and if you scoot over to the other forums you can still find the mythical kungfu guy for sure, and mostly unharrassed. When I started posting here there was a pretty good mix, and the ubiquitous arguing about what is and what is not, but it seems as of late that I have noticed a disturbing trend in the general forum anyway for traditional guys to be attacked for what they practice or believe by packs of those "others". Some of it's polite, most of it is borderline, some of it is offensive, all of it comes out of the woodwork when a traditional guy mentions his techniques or training. As a result I have noticed an decreased amount of posting on traditional or CMA type arts.
I think over the last year it has become more a playground then a discussion forum, where most people are just sort of hanging out, some people are competing for post counts, some are bullying others and in general there isn't as much quality discussion as there once was. This for some reason in my mind has coincided with the increase of "reality" or "grappling" related threads.
You know what I would really like to see, is some discussion and not arguing on martial arts. Instead of telling someone he's dead wrong or trying to shoot holes in his theories whatever happened to discussing how to translate techniques from forms work, or other traditional methods to real world fighting? What happen to those guys and girls who instead of retreating to another art to cover holes try to find ways to do that within the frame work fo those arts they study? Grappling is a great example, why does one always have to study BJJ to understand grappling?

[old jong]

R5A
Remember when you were harrassing everybody on the Wing Chun forum about your Wing Chun (Dechiara) being the only real and good one?...Then you had that "paradigm" change and you went MMA,at the same times attacking Wing Chun as a whole and now,you are complaining about the low imput from Kung Fu guys on this forum!...:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Ben Gash]

There often isn't a great deal of TCMA conversation on here anymore. Weeks go by, and I haven't seen anything to warrant a reply. I think a large part of this is the MMA TCMA bashers, which is sad really. Instead of discussing kung fu, we spend half our time defending it or apologising for it.
I personally tend to post on the Southern forum more now.There's more talk about kung fu and less bashing (just our resident troll, who's become a pastiche of himself anyway).

[red5angel]

Old Jong - the state of wingchun is exactly part of the problem, it's a magnified example of the state of martial arts, so much infighting about who does what better no one has anytime to practice and therefore sucks. I maintain my view that most Wingchun guys suck, its the truth, however it turns out they are not alone. Wingchun the art is a different story all together, a respectable art in and of itself and I have never had an issue with it. I have taken up cross training to compete, period, not because I have decided it is better then TMA and I maintain my Preying Mantis class once a week. When I met Carl Dechiara much of what I had seen had been so called wingchun, after getting out and exploring a little, and fighting a little as well (Something I recommend wingchun guys try for once instead of playing patty cake) my horizons have broadened and I have come to realise that not only does wingchun not have everything it needs, just about every person I have come into contact with who fights on a regular basis has greater skill then the majority o fthe chi sauing wing chun hippies out there. ;)

[red5angel]

Old Jong - the state of wingchun is exactly part of the problem, it's a magnified example of the state of martial arts, so much infighting about who does what better no one has anytime to practice and therefore sucks. I maintain my view that most Wingchun guys suck, its the truth, however it turns out they are not alone. Wingchun the art is a different story all together, a respectable art in and of itself and I have never had an issue with it. I have taken up cross training to compete, period, not because I have decided it is better then TMA and I maintain my Preying Mantis class once a week. When I met Carl Dechiara much of what I had seen had been so called wingchun, after getting out and exploring a little, and fighting a little as well (Something I recommend wingchun guys try for once instead of playing patty cake) my horizons have broadened and I have come to realise that not only does wingchun not have everything it needs, just about every person I have come into contact with who fights on a regular basis has greater skill then the majority o fthe chi sauing wing chun hippies out there. ;) You should go back to the wingchun forum now so you and the other old and mislead guys can slap each other on the ass after holding hands, I mean sticky hands.

[red5angel]

Ben Gash, sort of what I am basically getting at....

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that the TCMA guys don't come here because there's very little for them to talk about.

[red5angel]

I think there is plenty for them to talk about it but I think they just don't come here anymore to talk about it.

[red5angel]

mabe what I am percieving, from what appears to be the majority of MMA proponents, or "reality combat" practitioners etc... is that to be a serious martial artist you need to be training as if you were going into competition?

[MasterKiller]

mabe what I am percieving, from what appears to be the majority of MMA proponents, or "reality combat" practitioners etc... is that to be a serious martial artist you need to be training as if you were going into competition? Not really. Even the guys training for competition via Chinese styles - San Shou, San Da, SC - don't get the same respect as the Judo, MT, or BJJ guys. It seems that unless you are doing one of these three disciplines, no one takes your skills seriously.

You're either in their camp and correct, or your not. No exceptions.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Not really. Even the guys training for competition via Chinese styles - San Shou, San Da, SC - don't get the same respect



San Shou/San Da guys get ****ed on from both ends, the MMA zombies insist we just do crappy kung fu and the so called TCMA crowd insist we dont' do Chinese martial arts

At least there is still internet P o R n :D

[Shadowboxer]

Red 5 says:

I maintain my view that most Wingchun guys suck, its the truth...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Umm, how many WC practicioners are there in the world? and how many of them did you touch hands with to reach your conclusion that "most" suck?

Just curious...

[red5angel]

San Shou/San Da guys get ****ed on from both ends,

LOL! I know they get some respect around here, the shaolin school my buddy is going to is adding a San Shou program soon....of course to be fair they train pretty seriously there, spar and do competitions, both forms and fighting.

[rogue]

don't get the same respect as the Judo, MT, or BJJ Outside of the nutriders, the guys from those camps tend to respect individuals more than the style.


I think a large part of this is the MMA TCMA bashers, which is sad really. Instead of discussing kung fu, we spend half our time defending it or apologising for it. Ben, but don't some, not all, of the CMA guys bring it on themselves by making claims that can't be backed up? I've never met Gen Choi or Funakoshi so any reference to their skills is word of mouth, but I can go see, meet and even train in the same room as a Royce, Randy or any number of top fighters. I might even get a few pointers from them. I think the ring sport crowd just want to see something concrete and don't care about debating if Bruce Lee beat some Chinese master is a basement, or if some CMA master beat 40 Koreans in a street fight.

[red5angel]

yes but why can't the ring/sport people leave the guys who aren't interested in the ring/sport aspect of training and fighting alone? It goes both ways, don't get me wrong but what's the freakin' deal here?

[apoweyn]

Weren't you thinking of competing in MMA?

Is this forum that much worse that it ever was? I guess I'm surprised at the amount of vitriol that's built up here. Not just from you. I'm surprised in general. I guess I hadn't really noticed until you pointed it out though.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by red5angel
Suntzu - the martial arts are as faddish as some other aspects of our society. Back in the 70's and 80's it was karate and TKD, before that it was kungfu, now its grappling and "reality fighting". When kungfu was big it was because of the movies. People wanted to look like that, and fight like they did in those movies.
Karate and TKD started doing large scale competitions and branching out into chains of dojos, then people began to take those.
UFC hit the scene and every decided that grappling and "reality fighting" is the way to go.
There's even a not so small movement in the "martial arts" community towards for your health type workouts, taichi, some others.
None of these fads really invalidates any of those classes of arts, kungfu, TKD, karate, grappling, all of them can be used effectively in a "real fight", or in the ring if you just train apropriately, but when I stated on this forum a little over 4 years ago there were quite a few actual kungfu guys on the forum who appeared to be studying traditional arts- buy the way, some people use "traditional" as nearly a bad word on this forum in particular but elsewhere as well, I do not - and suddenly the amount of grappling and "reality based" martial artists sky rocketed over especially the last 2 years.

Naw Tae Kwon Do, Karate, and Judo are still the most popular martial arts like they always been. Most people in Europe don't eve know what ufc is or think the concept of mma fighting is illegal, even in U.S.A it's common.

[MasterKiller]

Every discussion of kung fu technique gets turned into a MMA training diary. This is, afterall, supposed to be about Chinese martial arts.

I've learned a lot from guys like MP and 7*, but sometimes I just want to talk shop without all the bullshlt and jockeying.

[red5angel]

yep, I am competing in MMA type events, also in kungfu events. My desire is to compete period. I'm not attacking anyone in particular, but wondering why everyones so busy attacking each other, and why it seems in a kungfu forum that kungfu guys are sort of the acception and not the rule.

It feels like it has. When I started here Ap there were a few guys who didn't do kungfu, but for the most part provided some really good input and there was a lot of discussion about this or that technique and how it can be used, this and that form, or style. Gradually, but more recently within the last two years, its gone from that to why do you bother with that when this is better, or just look at this and that competition to see what really works, and blah blah blah. Instead of earnest discussions on how to use kungfu and how to make it better ,it seems to have come to one large ****ing match for the most part over mma or tma, reality over tradition, etc...

maybe it sticks out more now for me because over the last year or two I have had some good exposure to all sorts of arts and all sorts of practitioners that pretty much renders those types of arguments moot and piontless.

[Merryprankster]

Not really. Even the guys training for competition via Chinese styles - San Shou, San Da, SC

Huh.

That's really very interesting to hear, especially from Sifu Ross. My experiences on MMA.tv have led me to believe that those who aren't nutriders, as rogue mentioned, have INCREDIBLE respect for those who compete in San Da. Now, they frequently make fairly inaccurate statements about what it IS (Muay thai and wrestling put together). But they respect the people who do it.

red5angel;

I'll tell you one thing, I think people get different things out of martial arts. I appreciate that there are people that do it as a hobby or for interest other than ringfighting. I don't believe that you have to train like a ringfighter to be any good.

I do think this: Many TMA practicioners bemoan the lack of quality TMA "these days," discussing how people don't take their training seriously, etc. However, when you discuss ringfighting as a possible solution, there tends to be a lot of push-back on that subject. I don't understand that.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
That's really very interesting to hear, especially from Sifu Ross. My experiences on MMA.tv have led me to believe that those who aren't nutriders, as rogue mentioned, have INCREDIBLE respect for those who compete in San Da. Now, they frequently make fairly inaccurate statements about what it IS (Muay thai and wrestling put together). But they respect the people who do it. MMA.tv may give it to them. MMA people here generally don't.

[Unmatchable]

It's all in the mind. It doesn't matter what you train in. There are untrained streetfighters out there who have nothing to lose, no emotions, cold eyes, who will not stop no matter what, and have no fear. They always win in the end.

[lkfmdc]

Merry, you have open minded people in all parts of the world, I have tons of guys with BJJ backgrounds or even still training BJJ in my school working their stand up, even working catch stuff with me. They are never the problem

But there is that very vocal minority of idiots that have major nests in places like MMA.tv

[apoweyn]

Huh. This thread has really let the wind out of my sails.

I'll talk to you guys later.


Stuart B.

[Merryprankster]

I've learned a lot from guys like MP and 7*, but sometimes I just want to talk shop without all the bullshlt and jockeying.

Wow... rare praise here :D

As far as just talking shop, that'd be nice. However--how do I phrase this so I don't get yelled at--ah, **** it:

It gets tiresome to be told, no matter HOW MANY TIMES YOU WALK THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD, that you "just don't understand." It's perfectly valid here if you are a CMA guy to talk about how you'd just do 'x' to deal with say, a shot, to use the overused example, or watch a vid clip of a demonstration on how to deal with a "grappler". However, if an MMA type gets on here and raises an objection--no matter how politely, there's a lot of static in the responses. That's been my experience, and I'm an optimist about this place.

It's fighting, not rocket science.

I do realize you guys get your fair share of idiot trolling too. It just tends to make us all a tad short and grumpy.

[ShaolinTiger00]

But there is that very vocal minority of idiots that have major nests in places like MMA.tv

To be honest, it's not that the people @ mma.tv don't like san shou -- They just hate Sifu Ross.. and some will troll san shou to get to him.

You tend to polarize people David.

I've gotten very good reception over there and have others who promote san shou's effectiveness.

[lkfmdc]

ShaolinTiger, not to get into an argument with you, really, but the precise reason I upset so many of the drones over on MMA.tv is exactly their closed minded zombie attitudes

When we started teaching, and started putting out fighters, a whole pile of them, some starting back on the Mousel forum, basicly chanted the mantra

"those guys do kung fu, they can't fight"

Then, when we started beating people, BJJ people, Muay Thai people, ie the zombie groups, the crap began...

I took a bunch of guys to Toronto in 1998, we tapped out five BJJ guys along the way. Suddenly, someone was posting about how I was really a BJJ brown belt (no crap) but since I had a falling out with my BJJ instructor I was "pretending to do kung fu"

Over the years, with the undisputable evidence of so many NYKK fighters winning so many events, the "conspiracy theories" have gotten even more desperate and ridiculous

And you've been trolled a thousand times over there too by guys like Adonis, Scorpion, Tampa NHB, and the other MT nazis

[Pork Chop]

I speak on here a lot cuz I figure I've got the least to lose.
But over the past couple years I've noticed more than one friend who's been in kung fu a long time have a change of heart.

For years these guys stood up for kung fu, saying that it could compete if they just trained it as seriously, but that they couldn't because they didn't have the time.

Other times it was guys saying that they hoped they could use it to compete, just that they were waiting for a specific point in their training where it would be "okay".

In each case, regardless of the reasoning, the closer the student got to competing or working out with competitors the more friction that came about from the sifu. They figured out that the sifu really didn't want them to compete; be it for their (the sifu's) reputation, a lack of understanding, or for some other reason.

I know this isn't true for all sifus out there. But I do think a lot of people are finally owning up to the fact that they do want to compete and maybe the kung fu school isn't the best place to train them for competition.

I am an open minded guy and I can understand that competition isn't the be all and end all. I don't try to convert people out of their TMAs if they love their TMA. But when it comes to fighting, I gotta give some credit to the guy who trains full time to punch a skilled guy in the head, who doesn't want to be punched in the head, in front of a crowd of people; versus someone who doesn't regularly do that.

On the other hand we've got the argument of whether or not San Shou/Da is a form of kung fu; or whether or not it's a venue for kung fu people to compete.

My personal opinion is that San Shou/Da has everything that I could want in fighting short of grappling on the ground; with the possible exception of knees to the head & elbows.

I also see a lot of chinese techniques, principles, concepts, and methods exhibited in the training & the competition.

I think people feeling targeted by "modern" ma folks for being a "tma" tend to be the same ones targeting the san shou folks as being "just kickboxing".

Balanced between reactions like these, and the reactions of the folks who point to san shou fighters as validation of being able to fight when they never took a single shot in their life & spend all their time on forms & lineage; I can understand some of Ross' more outrageous statements on these message boards.

I really don't see how you're being "picked on". If you wanna sit in horse stance to improve your structure, that's your thing, I'll do my footwork drills, pad, and bag work. Just don't sit there and expect me to believe that it has some magical qualities, while what I do is merely "low class".

[MasterKiller]

Just don't sit there and expect me to believe that it has some magical qualities, while what I do is merely "low class". At the same time, don't tell me I should be following YOUR training regime because you see no value in mine. Whether or not what I do is "efficient" by you standards is beside the point. It's my training, and leave me to it.

I certainly appreciate input, but I don't need 72 articles about sports medicine thrown out that show me just how stupid you think I am.

Disagree with something? Fine. Move on.

[ShaolinTiger00]

We're not arguing :)



their closed minded zombie attitudes

You'll find no better over here! but I agree there are many people who are ignorant (they simply do not know) jealous, single-minded zombies.


Over the years, with the undisputable evidence of so many NYKK fighters winning so many events, the "conspiracy theories" have gotten even more desperate and ridiculous

While I'm not debating this, I'll wager that very few of the last few years flame wars have been about this topic. From a spectator's view they appear to be about old Tony C (catch guys hate you), flames, "tiger suns his belly" kungfu groundwork(bjj guys hate you), muay thai/sanda (muay thai guys hate you)and the infamous Bruce Lee thread..(where to begin..) They don't seem to have a problem with NYKK, they just don't like you bro. You've either angered them, alientated them or ridiculed them for better or worse. (at times I have been guilty of the exact same things.)


And you've been trolled a thousand times over there too by guys like Adonis, Scorpion, Tampa NHB, and the other MT nazis

case in point. muay thai and Sanda are going to fight like the sister arts they are. both have so many similarities yet want to remain distinct just like judo and bjj. we're going to bicker it's enevitable.

[Pork Chop]

Well I wasn't the one who made the "efficient" comment. :)
I did horse stance for a long time.
Never got above 10 minutes for a thighs parallel, but could probably still crank out a good 2 minutes if I had to.
For me, it wasn't the best training, though it definitely does have benefits. I think for dealing with some "modern" people it's just a matter of putting those benefits into the right words.

[red5angel]

Many TMA practicioners bemoan the lack of quality TMA "these days," discussing how people don't take their training seriously, etc. However, when you discuss ringfighting as a possible solution, there tends to be a lot of push-back on that subject. I don't understand that.

MP, I might venture to say that for some ringfighting isn't a possible solution to the problem of people not training hard enough. I'm not sure there is a solution to that, because when it comes to it, most people want to make money when they start a school, so they sacrifice quality training - which tends to be hard and take a large chucnk of ones time - to keep people in the school. Sometimes it just seems to me like they really don't understand what it takes to be effective!



Huh. This thread has really let the wind out of my sails.

Now you know how I feel Ap. It used to be I used to enojoy coming here, even when I was the pig headed one, to listen to what some of you guys had to say, to bounce off ideas, things like that. now a days you can't mention anything it seems without having half a dozen idiots who want to argue, not discuss but argue that what your talking about doesn't work and you should go this route or some such nonsense.


However, if an MMA type gets on here and raises an objection--no matter how politely, there's a lot of static in the responses. That's been my experience, and I'm an optimist about this place.

your right MP, but I seem to remember when the majority of the responses weren't so nasty. Of course it takes some time for some people to come around and sort of learn the truth about things, so your always going to have the issue, but why so often now a days?

And why is it that we can have 3-4 threads on grappling and San Shou (which I personally consider CMA, if not TMA, which doesn't make it any less valid as a fighting art in my eyes) that run 20 some pages while it seems kungfu threads get run over or hijacked more often then not, although those longer threads get hijacked or offtrack from time to time too, I still haven't seen a kungfu thread actual go that far. That's sort of what leads me to believe that it is partially just a fad sweeping through the martial arts. You get long threads like that because people know about it, they know about it because it's everywhere you turn, the competitions get hyped and advertised, and the forums are flooded with new recruits and guys who have been doing it for a while and know it already.

What I'm trying to figure out is why on a kungfu forum can we discuss the ins and outs about grappling or MMA with few interuptions while kungfu threads don't seem to be able to survive as long? Where are all the kungfu guys who are sincerely interested in it? What about the MMA and Grappling guys who get on a kungfu forum instead of a grappling or MMA forum to learn about kungfu?
Is it because of all the ****ing contest within the TCMA? Ever tried talking to a wingchun guy about wingchun that isn't what he's studying? Is it because people really are losing faith in their own TMA and so are flocking to the "new" forms of fighting? Is it just that this forum is the favored hunting ground for those guys who have nothing better to do then to waste time picking on other peoples arts?

Frankly sometimes I really do wish we had a big gathering once a year, something we could all get to so we could weed out the fake from the real, the good from the bad, the interesting from the dull.......

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00



While I'm not debating this, I'll wager that very few of the last few years flame wars have been about this topic. From a spectator's view they appear to be about old Tony C (catch guys hate you), flames, "tiger suns his belly" kungfu groundwork(bjj guys hate you), muay thai/sanda (muay thai guys hate you)and the infamous Bruce Lee thread..(where to begin..) They don't seem to have a problem with NYKK, they just don't like you bro. You've either angered them, alientated them or ridiculed them for better or worse. (at times I have been guilty of the exact same things.)



See, you ARE missing my point entirely!

Why do BJJ people freak out that I mention that TCMA has grappling as well as their art? Blind, over zealous, zombie attitudes that only THEY have the "secret" of grappling. I've posted pictures from Chinese books dating back to the 1930's with arm bars, leg locks and ground positions to prove them wrong.

If they hate me for proving them wrong, is that really MY FAULT?

Reality is, I fused some Lama with some Shuai Chiao with some sambo and some catch and my guys have won a lot of grappling events. In fact, with the SC, we have never been taken down by a BJJ guy in these things.

Other than training 2 days at a Rickson seminar, I have NEVER done BJJ... so BJJ zombies have panic attacks, really they do.

The Muay Thai nazis are no better, "we are the best stand up, no one can beat us"

Me: well, san da people have, WE have.... so get over yourselves

**** square I have ridiculed them when they say stupid crap. And they deserve every comment

[Pork Chop]

red5
another thing i forgot to mention is the age old "sifu told me not to". I know personally I didn't share on tons of threads that were "talking shop" because either sifu explicitly told me not to share that stuff, or thought that by me talking it would come back haunt my sifu. It kind of goes along with the age old "family vs family" theme in TCMA. I mean look at rituals like "inner door student" and how most who undergo the ritual seem to have some sort of "epiphany" about their training. A lot of good stuff is just kept quiet and sharing is discouraged.

[red5angel]

I'd like to think that the internet and our modern understanding of "things" could get past all that crap. Honestly I think alot of that is just driven by money. If you make your students not share, then people have to come to you for the answers, and the only way they get the answers is to pay you to show them.
That's really no reason to encourage that crap. I can speak from honest experience, one guy I met who had a lot of good skill decided that instead of trying to just get out there and show people some honest, solid, good skill and how to get it, he wanted to try to cram it down peoples throats, lie to proive his points and generally make an ass out of him, and fooled me into making an ass out of me. All the time claiminig he wanted to "bring the truth to the people". It was all ego, all crap and most likely motivated by glory and money.

[backbreaker]

Actually , I have read the opinions of many TMAists in magazines who felt that competition and sport is the best way to bring up the level of martial arts in the modern world. It's helped grappling's popularity. Some people have alot of money on the line, so hence the politics and the style superiority complex

[lkfmdc]

furthermore, why is it that Muay Thai guys (the zombies at least) have to try and convince the world that they are "best" and feel so threatened by San Shou?

San Shou guys sit around watching Muay Thai and K1 all the time. we all like it, no problem, because we aren't invested in the concept of being the only game in town

MT became the world's first martial art to master the excuse,

he would have won if there had been clinching
he would have won if there had been elbows
it wasn't full MT rules so it doesn't count
uh, he wasn't a real stadium champion

:rolleyes:

[Pork Chop]

I think greed and selfishness will ALWAYS be a part of the human psyche, there's never trully escaping it. But I do agree that the level it's been held to in the past isn't really working with modern western students.

[rogue]

Martial arts has always been this way, the internet just makes it more visible. Boxers laughed at karateka, karateka laughed at boxers, Bruce Lee with his Classical Mess essay, John Blum, the goes on. Somebody has always thought their way was the best and only way.

[Ralphie]

I have a passion for TCMA. I make no excuses for it, and I'm not conflicted by that and the fact that I like to "fight" in a "safe" sports venue. HAHA! I learned the no conflict part from Ba Gua.

[Merryprankster]

MP, I might venture to say that for some ringfighting isn't a possible solution to the problem of people not training hard enough.

I disagree. I was approaching full contact ring fighting as a possible solution to the overall quality issue. I lump grappling comps of any sort into this definition, for the purposes of this conversation, because for a straight wrestler type or a sport BJJer, that IS their ring, so to speak. It's analogous to, but different from, an MMA match or San Da, but nonetheless valid in my book.

You rarely hear BJJers, wrestlers, boxers, Judoka, Sambists, San Da guys, etc, bemoan the "state" of their art.

While there are schools in each of these arts that clearly cater to the hobbyist, the level of training -even at these schools- is raised because quality competitors are common.

Let me give you an example. Where ShaolinTiger 00 trains Judo can NOT be considered a "competitors school." The training is obviously not geared towards improving competition. It's geared towards transmitting the art of Judo to anybody who wants to learn it. However, nearly every single person there has SOME competitive experience. Further, the few active competitors raise the level of training by being excellent training partners. Most people there have a real sense of what it takes to "do judo" so to speak.

Or how about the gym I learned (sort of, but that's what only 9 months will give you--sort of :D) to box at? There were only a handful of us that were interested in fighting in an amateur bout or two, but we trained with everybody. And that improved everybody across the board - even the people that were just there to get in shape - for instance, the pace of our mutual footwork drills tended to exhaust them--so they got a good workout out of it.

Are these arts immune to bad schools? Nope. They're out there, but everybody knows where to seek quality instruction - you go where the winners are. Nobody, except older guys talkin about the glory days, ever complains about an overall quality issue.

Well, excepting when Judoka in the U.S. complain about U.S. Judo compared to other countries, but that's a popularity issue. :D

[Merryprankster]

At the same time, don't tell me I should be following YOUR training regime because you see no value in mine. Whether or not what I do is "efficient" by you standards is beside the point.

On the contrary, it is the point. You CANNOT deny the inefficiency. Well you COULD, but the overwhelming evidence against it suggests that denying it is more dogmatic than reasonable. It's not an issue of "by somebody's standards." It's an issue of things, as KF pointed out, like 60% strength transfer. Why spend time doing something that's 60% efficient when other methods offer far greater output benefits for the same time in?

It's not an efficient way to train, physically. Period.

But if you WANT TO TRAIN THAT WAY, perhaps (as I mentioned before) to preserve the art, or maybe even "just because," be my guest. I'm aware that there are a lot of people out there doing arts for totally different reasons with a completely different goal set in mind. 60% may not be efficient from a physical training perspective, or even from a getting better at what you do perspective, but it sure may fit your interests and goals. Maybe you meditate while doing that type of stuff and that improves your well-being. That's immeasurable, but certainly adds value.

[David Jamieson]

I think greed and selfishness will ALWAYS be a part of the human psyche, there's never trully escaping it.

jut had to comment on this. Yes, there is a way to free yourself from greed and selfishness. THe first part is to recognize when you are acting greedy or being selfish, the second part is to willfully stop doing that. The third part is to get rid of a sense of self importance and to not worry about losing face but rather, be concerned with the reality of your life.

thanks, just had to interject because I for one do not believe in resigning the self to the idiocy of the world just because it is a heavy weight,

cheers

[stimulant]

All good points MP, but I disagree, to me the state of TCMA should be blamed on the the chinese government post qing dynasty. history is a great teacher.

With the banning of challenge matches (often resulting in death), the introduction of rules and protective gear in tourlements, and even the frowning on and discouragement of contact (during training), all added up the deterioration of TCMA which we see today.

Now because of rules in competitions, most kung fu'ers learn one way and fight another. 'My forms are like this, but I'm gonna fight this way because rules say so (plus its quicker and easier to learn and get good at)' attidude is helping to destoying the art we love.

With the advent of the rule less (or very few rules) MMA tourlements, kung-fu should be making a 'come-back', but unfortunatly people dont want to put in the hard work and take the short cuts offered by MT, BJJ, etc.

Cross training is good, hard-work over a long time is, eventually, better.

disagreement welcome, this is just my opinion.

:)

[Merryprankster]

Cross training is good, hard-work over a long time is, eventually, better.

It is quite possible to do BOTH. They are not mutually exclusive. FWIW, this is precisely the type of stuff that starts arguments. The underlying message in this is "If you cross train, you aren't working hard."

Secondly, there is significant difference between "style-hopping" and cross training. Taking 3 months of this and 3 months of that isn't "cross-training." Cross-training requires significant dedication to the art forms chosen, and most cross-trainers focus on one specific area to excel at while becoming at least proficient with others.

I'm probably not "cross-training" right now, but I can throw a punch with some modicum of ability. However, I am certainly first and foremost a grappler--and this is where I choose to maintain my expertise. Getting to where I've gotten didn't come easy--I busted my ass for it....and I've still got a ways to go.

[stimulant]

I didnt mean to imply that if you do cross training, BJJ, MT etc that you are not working hard. so I appologise for any implied insults there!

I merely ment that to be good at most kung-fu systems takes more time and hard work then most other styles.

:)

[Merryprankster]

I merely ment that to be good at most kung-fu systems takes more time and hard work then most other styles.

You have a funny way of trying not to insult people :p

I really don't believe this is the case. The hours that people who want to be the best spend doing their chosen arts would really seem to refute this statement. I think it's a bit odd to suggest, for instance, that masters of wrestling, who have spent more than 20 years perfecting what they do, often working at it for hours a day or more aren't working hard over time.

Quite frankly, that's what it takes to be really, really good--the best you can be.

[rogue]

stimulant, why should they take longer? Are you talking about CMA as a combative system or as something bigger including rituals and esoteric things like Lion Dancing?

[stimulant]

takes longer due to training methods.

all subjective to style and method to of course.

iron palm is not an over night thing....i may spend 4 years to get an iron palm that is as good at breaking bricks than the 2 years a Karate man may have taken with his punching.

today its all about training your techniques lots with partners (which I think is good), back in old days it was training your techniques lots, rarely with partners, which (long term) could be argued is better.

BJJ / TB- you can reach a high level in 3 years of hard training. but if you are doing TCMA, you should only be finished with training the basics. With the culture of ranks and gradings these days schools would shut if the said it takes 10 years to black belt!

Speak about about ALL aspetcs of TCMA - so much to train.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by rogue
stimulant, why should they take longer? Are you talking about CMA as a combative system or as something bigger including rituals and esoteric things like Lion Dancing? Why should it take longer? You have to learn 1)Punching, 2) Kicking, 3) Throwing, 4) Joint locking 5)Weapons

These are all a common and integral part of the Kung Fu training regiment.

You could specialize punching, like a boxer, or throwing, like *most* Judo, or joint locking/grappling, and get good at one thing in a shorter amount of time, but by having such a broad curriculum, it simply takes longer to learn and get good at.

If you add Chinese medicine, bone setting, ect...well, you get my point. You might not agree with it, but that's a different story.

It's taken MP, what, like 3 years to reach where he is in BJJ. I've seen his boxing, and no offense, it's not to the same level as his grappling. I imigine his Judo, while better than mine for sure, isn't either. Sooner or later, maybe we'll see a video of him in MT so we can judge his kicks. So, how long would it take to become a great grappler AND great puncher AND great kicker AND great thrower AND good with weapons? Not 3 years. Maybe someone could because of their special physical attributes, but for the average person, working out an average amount of time, I suggest it takes much longer.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


On the contrary, it is the point. You CANNOT deny the inefficiency. Well you COULD, but the overwhelming evidence against it suggests that denying it is more dogmatic than reasonable. It's not an issue of "by somebody's standards." It's an issue of things, as KF pointed out, like 60% strength transfer. Why spend time doing something that's 60% efficient when other methods offer far greater output benefits for the same time in? My point was that no one nominated anyone to be our savior, and while some people may feel an urgent need to lead us to the promised land of 100% efficiency and a wall full of trophies, most of us are content with the ways and means of our practice BECAUSE we find value in it. Again, you can disagree, and even voice your opinions. And feedback is appreciated, because really, I respect what a lot of people here say; but nevertheless, I get tired of spending my time explaining and defending why I do something when sometimes, I just want to talk to other people who find the same value in doing the same things I do.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ralphie
R5,

That's very sensible. Most guys who do "reality fighting" or TCMA are doing it as a passing hobby, and are usually average at best. They rarely are able to put it all together, and will specialize in one format, like groundfighting. Most will quit after obtaining a certain goal. The venue doesn't eradicate human nature.

To a certain extent, it does eradicate human nature. If you are a hobbyist, you may not last long in a competitive sport style. The same goes for those who want to learn but don't want to sweat. I see it all the time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Every discussion of kung fu technique gets turned into a MMA training diary. This is, afterall, supposed to be about Chinese martial arts.

I've learned a lot from guys like MP and 7*, but sometimes I just want to talk shop without all the bullshlt and jockeying.

There are still plenty of CMA topics here. Ihave learned ALOT about various CMA since I've been here, and met several people from the forum that I consider friends. I will admit though, that most of the stuff I've benefitted from though, I picked up on the training, mantis, shaolin and *shameless plug* southern forum, which has been awesome, minus KFO's biggest troll, ego.

However, I see plenty of viewpoints about training, fighting, etc. that I don't agree with and will post my view as well - that's what a discussion forum is all about. On several occasions, the topic has stayed on the original CMA topic, but the added sport perpective showed people a different light from their way of viewing things. There's plenty of that on the mantis forum, here recently.

[MasterKiller]

I wonder which 'Nam movie Ego will watch this weekend so he can have a flashback on Monday.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by stimulant
All good points MP, but I disagree, to me the state of TCMA should be blamed on the the chinese government post qing dynasty. history is a great teacher.

With the banning of challenge matches (often resulting in death), the introduction of rules and protective gear in tourlements, and even the frowning on and discouragement of contact (during training), all added up the deterioration of TCMA which we see today.

I put the onus on humans and greed. the whole mysticism thing and "my grandmaster is 300-0 in challenge matches", etc. It seems that alot of schools piggyback off of the name of their grandmasters as opposed to making a name themselves. People use this to their advantage. They say "style X is undefeated in challenge matches, and grandmaster wun dum gai could project his chi and kill people with it", which some people will buy into.

some people being lazy, don't want hard training, and some schools cater to that. They HAVE to in order to remain in business, if they are teaching for money.

Now because of rules in competitions, most kung fu'ers learn one way and fight another. 'My forms are like this, but I'm gonna fight this way because rules say so (plus its quicker and easier to learn and get good at)' attidude is helping to destoying the art we love.

not really. There are PLENTY of techniques in your forms that can be used in the ring. Not every technique is lethal. BJJ outlaws heel hooks in many tournaments because of the dangerous nature of them. You don't hear a bjj guy say "I woulda beat you if heel hooks were allowed", do you? nah. They just use other techniques in their arsenal. The rules don't say you can't use your style's principles or footwork. It doesn't say that you can't use most of your styles strikes. And, it limits grapplers too. If I have you pinned on the ground, don't you think it would be easier for me to eye gouge you? but MMA guys don't gripe about that. They work around it.

With the advent of the rule less (or very few rules) MMA tourlements, kung-fu should be making a 'come-back', but unfortunatly people dont want to put in the hard work and take the short cuts offered by MT, BJJ, etc.

I agree with the first part of your statement, but disagree with the shortcut thing. Yes, CMA by design is a longer process. But, there are people who are at the stage right now where they are good enough to compete and use their style while doing so. In addition, there are CMA tournies you can compete in.

Cross training is good, hard-work over a long time is, eventually, better.

I started a thread on cross training vs. style hopping. Check it out. There's one on the mantis forum also.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I wonder which 'Nam movie Ego will watch this weekend so he can have a flashback on Monday.

:D

[rogue]

Why should it take longer? You have to learn 1)Punching, 2) Kicking, 3) Throwing, 4) Joint locking 5)Weapons Why should those things take longer in a CMA than some other art? I'm learning those things now in karate, though my weapons are knife and handgun. C'mon there has to be something else that's taking up your time from a combative view.


If you add Chinese medicine, bone setting, ect...well, you get my point. You might not agree with it, but that's a different story. OK I can see those things adding time. Eventually I have to get first aid training to get a BB.


iron palm is not an over night thing....i may spend 4 years to get an iron palm that is as good at breaking bricks than the 2 years a Karate man may have taken with his punching.
I'll tell you how I do training iron body and breaking things in six months using karate training. What exactly entails getting an iron palm?

[MasterKiller]

Why should those things take longer in a CMA than some other art? I'm learning those things now in karate, though my weapons are knife and handgun. C'mon there has to be something else that's taking up your time from a combative view. Learning them ans being great at them aren't the same thing. Are you ready for the UFC? Neither am I.

As far as knife and gun, that's pretty practical, but I train in the following weapons, not necessarily for combat effectivness, mind you, but to keep the tradition alive:

Spear, Snake Spear, Staff, Sword, Double-Sword, Double Hook-Swords, Straight Sword, 3-Section Staff, Rope Dart, Kwan Dao, Monk Spade, Chain

Many of those have multiple sets and two-man sets as well.

Traditionally, you learn 18 weapons. That takes some time to learn, but also takes time away from my regular hand-to-hand training. And while you won't be using a Kwan Dao on the street, training these weapons is generally part of most KF curriculums. If all I wanted to do was fight, this wouldn't be the "most efficient" way to train, but my priorites are different and I like working weapons.

[rogue]

OK that's cool. That's what I was wondering if the combat part alone took longer or if the training was longer because of additional material.


takes longer due to training methods.
all subjective to style and method to of course. stimulant, what besides iron palm makes things take longer for you and what type of training methods?

[Merryprankster]

So, how long would it take to become a great grappler AND great puncher AND great kicker AND great thrower

While I certainly understand your point, food for thought:

How are you going to get great at ANY of these if what you do only addresses them in a cursory fashion?

I mean, trust me, no offense taken at your comments about my boxing. My hands are nowhere near my grappling. So no offense intended in the following:

I've seen the "throws and grappling" of TCMA in action, and except for one truly specialized art (SC) they are generally lousy. Punching, kicking, not so bad for the most part but the grappling (to include all standing and ground).... UGH. Not only that, but judging from what I've learned here, this whole grabbing thing and how to do it right really isn't probed into in much detail, so what, 90% working on footwork and striking and maybe 10% if that, on wrestling type stuff? I mean REAL wrestling type stuff where you are actively engaged in trying to stuff a takedown attempt while initiating one of your own, or seriously heavy work on joint manipulation. Not the afterthought of "oh yeah, we have that too!" (like some BJJers insist it contains 'striking' :rolleyes: )

So I might argue that really, you're getting good at punching and kicking, and maybe a handful of standing joint manipulations. So why SHOULD it take significantly longer? Seems to me the real body of knowledge here isn't as great as people want it to be. I don't think the "all-inclusive" nature of CMA can be used to justify a slower learning curve. Quite frankly, it's not especially all inclusive - a handful of grappling sprinkled into the bulk of your practice, which are not truly, heavily practiced does not an expert make I mean, E-fist even said his style has ONE kick. I wouldn't exactly call that an enormous repetoire that requires dividing your time up, contributing to a slower learning cycle.

Although, I do see your point about weapons. However, some styles really don't get in to that much and not until later, yeah? I mean, I could be wrong, but there are some pretty Non-weapon intensive styles out there, right?

[rogue]

So I might argue that really, you're getting good at punching and kicking, and maybe a handful of standing joint manipulations. So why SHOULD it take significantly longer? Seems to me the real body of knowledge here isn't as great as people want it to be. MP, I'm guessing what's taking them longer is learning all the variations of basic locks, kicks and punches. I have a handful of techniques that I can do well enough to use and have work somewhat consistently, a friend of mine has many more techniques but can't keep them working without more training. While he's training all those moves I'm training my few in drills and sparring. He still thinks it's more a matter of some special training I've had rather than quality over quantity.

[Ralphie]

There's 2 things going on here. One, CMA teach people how to punch and kick with a certain strategy. It's not rocket science (see critical thinking thread), and some learn quicker than others. It doesn't take long to use. However, there is of course a difference btwn being good and just ok. Because many CMA look at an idealized model of perfection, they often feel like they've got so much to work on. In other cases, practitioners just look at the end, and not the means to get there. In this way many don't work on the day to day things they need to in order to gain skill. Many do, though.

[Merryprankster]

MP, I'm guessing what's taking them longer is learning all the variations of basic locks, kicks and punches. I have a handful of techniques that I can do well enough to use and have work somewhat consistently, a friend of mine has many more techniques but can't keep them working without more training.

This ONLY makes sense, IMO, if you take a technocentric training perspective. I mean, to me, an armbar from the guard is an armbar from the guard. They aren't significantly different from each other. I've never once thought "gee, I've learned 20 different armbars." If you look at it as 20 different armbars, then that's a real problem both for you and the way you're being trained!

Point being that if they are variations on a theme, then they aren't "different" enough to warrant this idea of a longer learning cycle.


In this way many don't work on the day to day things they need to in order to gain skill.

Well, that can't be helped. You don't get any better at anything in this manner.

[backbreaker]

In Taijiquan anyways , everything is a variation of a theme I think. The weapon forms are even basically the same ( or at least similar, broadsword anyways) form as the empty hand. The first move of the form is considered the base move that all others are built off of. And then later moves are combinations of earlier movements.

[rogue]

If you look at it as 20 different armbars, then that's a real problem both for you and the way you're being trained!
Exactly. In some arts there are variations on punches that are only different by where they start and where they end but they are catalogued as separate techniques. My current sensei teaches on how a body works and takes that as a jumping off point for techniques. After awhile you start thinking of making your opponents body do something rather than armbar technique 1 if he's doing X, armbar technique 2 if he's doing Y. Of course it takes alot of hands on do get a feel for it but I think it's streamlined my training. There's a bit more but I hope I'm explaining it clearly since it's still pretty new to me.


The first move of the form is considered the base move that all others are built off of. And then later moves are combinations of earlier movements. backbreaker, why would that mean it takes longer to learn or am I missing your point?:confused:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ralphie
There's 2 things going on here. One, CMA teach people how to punch and kick with a certain strategy.

As do boxing and MT.

It's not rocket science (see critical thinking thread), and some learn quicker than others. It doesn't take long to use. However, there is of course a difference btwn being good and just ok. Because many CMA look at an idealized model of perfection, they often feel like they've got so much to work on. In other cases, practitioners just look at the end, and not the means to get there. In this way many don't work on the day to day things they need to in order to gain skill. Many do, though.

I don't think it's that. I think it's the format. At least at the TMA schools I've seen/been to. you spend months learning the basics and a form or two, then you start doing one steps (JMA) and eventually move onto sparring. Some traditional schools do no sparring at all. In an MT school, for example, you will be doing live drills the first week. They show you how to jab and how to parry a jab, for example, and later in that class, you will have a partner throw jabs at you. You parry and counter with a jab, which he will then counter. With the sportive format, you get experience at an earlier stage, IME.

[backbreaker]

Now that I think about it , I don't know if I had a point. I didn't read the whole thread. I'm just saying. I don't know if it takes longer or shorter. In a competitive martial art the criteria is to be better than your opponent or the best you can be, so it's hard and takes time to get good also

[MasterKiller]

Quite frankly, it's not especially all inclusive - a handful of grappling sprinkled into the bulk of your practice, which are not truly, heavily practiced does not an expert make I mean, E-fist even said his style has ONE kick. I wouldn't exactly call that an enormous repetoire that requires dividing your time up, contributing to a slower learning cycle.I see your point. I was speaking from my personal perspective. We throw/grapple more than average, but not at much as something like SC. One of our forms even has a fireman's carry (I think that's what you guys would call it). On that page ST00 linked to with the Judo animations, I saw a lot of similarities in some of what we do. Now, my Sigung was called "Judo Man" by his contemporaries, so maybe I just have the advantage of having a Judo influence in my kung fu. That being said, I know dlck about Judo as it exists outside of what I do.

Although, I do see your point about weapons. However, some styles really don't get in to that much and not until later, yeah? I mean, I could be wrong, but there are some pretty Non-weapon intensive styles out there, right?Weapons do come later, usually. You usually have to be able to control your own body pretty well before you are allowed to handle a weapon. Just like the Celtic saying, "Never give a sword to man who can't dance."

Primarily, I'm thinking of Northern Shaolin systems when I use the 18 number, but even then, there are variations fom style to style as to how many weapons actually are trained. 18 is the 'traditional' number, but the actual weapons taught vary greatly.

[SevenStar]

One application of "shoot the bow" is a fireman's carry.

[Merryprankster]

You usually have to be able to control your own body pretty well before you are allowed to handle a weapon. Just like the Celtic saying, "Never give a sword to man who can't dance."

Well, I'M hosed. Don't ever hand me a weapon. :D

On a related note, Ap's pretty good with a stick and I KNOW he can't dance. Explain THAT!

Anyway, this brings me to my point:


In some arts there are variations on punches that are only different by where they start and where they end but they are catalogued as separate techniques. My current sensei teaches on how a body works and takes that as a jumping off point for techniques. After awhile you start thinking of making your opponents body do something rather than armbar technique 1 if he's doing X, armbar technique 2 if he's doing Y. Of course it takes alot of hands on do get a feel for it but I think it's streamlined my training. There's a bit more but I hope I'm explaining it clearly since it's still pretty new to me.

Rogue, YES!!!

Since we've gotten rid of the idea that there is "more" to learn, so the learning cycle isn't longer from that perspective, what possible explaination is there for the idea "CMA takes longer to learn?"

Is it a training format issue as SevenStar suggested? If it IS a training format issue can the format be changed to reduce this cycle?

Or, is this 'longer to learn thing' just a myth altogether--a mental impediment to actually getting good (because, trust me, if it's just a myth, it IS hindering training.)

[SevenStar]

For reasons of preserving the art, I don't think the cycle would change. stance work yields solid stances, which lends to being better in combat. Sure, we can argue that training footwork and mobility is key, and we always argue that, but they can say that they use their stance work as stance disruption to the opponent, etc...

Then also, there are some things, that (at least where I was training) are saved till advanced stages, like iron palm. After you reached a certain rank, you began training it. I would consider teaching it from the beginning - If I am in an altercation early on into my training, iron palm would definitely help me, no? I would have students working up to it from the get go.

I would also have them drilling live more. But making such changes would detract from things like forms work, unless you extended the classes.

[Merryprankster]

I'm not wondering IF people who teach the arts WILL change the training format. I'm wondering if changing the format CAN improve the learning cycle.

Take, for example, your uhhh... example of stance training. We've already established, several times over, that this type of training takes place concurrently with other elements of training in Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, San Shou, etc. You cannot, for instance, argue successfully that boxers or wrestlers have less or lower root somehow. Wrestlers clearly are excellent at it, and I would argue that boxers take exceptionally hard shots, yet stay upright. While knockdowns do happen, they are rare enough that they are scored and they don't happen very often, compared to the number of shots that land flush. This would suggest to me, an excellent connection with the ground--both based on how hard boxers hit and on how rare (relatively speaking--not every fight has a knockdown, and then, when you compare that to flush shots, it's fairly infrequent--that's one reason a whole fight can turn on a knockdown) a knockdown is.

[rogue]

Or, is this 'longer to learn thing' just a myth altogether--a mental impediment to actually getting good (because, trust me, if it's just a myth, it IS hindering training.) The mental impediment can also be forgetting what you are trying to accomplish. Off of a haymaker my TKD master backfists into the bicep, my Kali instructor used a little stick to hit the same spot and my sensei will punch it with the second row of knuckles of his fist. I can easily fall into that they are 3 techniques and forget that the idea is to hit the **** bicep.


Then also, there are some things, that (at least where I was training) are saved till advanced stages, like iron palm. After you reached a certain rank, you began training it. I would consider teaching it from the beginning - If I am in an altercation early on into my training, iron palm would definitely help me, no? I would have students working up to it from the get go. And according to my sensei that's how he learned. A form of what's called iron body here is started early on since if you can't take a hit then how can you deliver one? If you don't know how to target parts of the body why perfect your punch or kick? IMO alot of the stages can be rolled together.

[rogue]

I'd also add imediate feedback and quick correction also make for more efficient training. Punching air or standing still won't give feedback but working a bag, two man drills and sparring will. Then having a good coach to correct things right then really keeps things moving.

[Pork Chop]

Kung Lek
I was talking about greed running the greater scope of TCMA as a whole. No offense to individuals, because I'm doing my best not to name names; but I've seen firsthand the bs of politics and greed. I doubt it will ever change because money is involved; and there's little reason to change. I can only control my actions.

stimulant
To your statement about "shortcuts" I am offering the counterpoint that it's not that the trainees are lazy about the training, but that the trainers have no true interest in training their students for competition of that sort.

I don't know that a trainee should be expected to wake up one morning after a number of years doing forms and light contact sparring and know exactly what he needs to be able to step in a full contact ring. In which case the blame does not lie 100% with the practisioners but with those instructing them.

I also maintain that the concept of san shou as merely "muay thai with some wrestling" is complete bs. We (those who've trained & fight san shou) have posted many examples of kung fu techniques, strategies, and principles being used by ring fighters.

MerryP
You saying San Shou/Da isn't TCMA? ;) :p
Tai chi's got some good throws, especially in the context of using a throw to respond to an attack.
But I know what you mean, the "complete style", "we've got that" arguments seem a little thin.

Thinking about something lately though, especially with the statement about your boxing:
Having good boxing for MMA doesn't necessarily equate to good boxing skill for boxing.

The context may affect the level of proficiency.

A good wrestler in wrestling may not be successful in san shou, even as far as his throws.
Having good throws for sanshou, probably wouldn't carry over to being as successful in judo or wrestling.

So there may be some small validity to the point of training a range as an aspect to a larger context as opposed to singular focus.

I could be way off base, but it's just something I'm kicking around.

[MasterKiller]

Which current professional or sport fighters can someone point to that have a complete game? I mean, someone who could do equally well in a BJJ, MT, Boxing, Judo or NHB format?

Specialization is the key to quick proficiency. Proficiency in a wide area of diciplines takes longer to attain than proficiency in one or two. If you try to learn all of it at the same time, your training time is spread thin, which means it takes longer to reach proficiency in every aspect.

You could argue that it's better to be great at one thing than pretty good at five. But if that were the case, MMA fighters wouldn't be MMA, they would be straight BJJ, straight MT, etc... without the "mixed" ever entering into the equation.

You could argue that MMA fighter get better at fighting faster than KF people because of the training differences. I suspect the real difference lies in intensity of training, not necessarily methodology. I know very few KF players (outside of this forum) who even skip rope or run to build endurance. I think if the intensity were there, and was coached into the KF player like it is in a MMA fighter, he could do well in a MMA format.

The school culture probably affects the ability of the average KF player as well. How many hours of a BJJ player's day is spent teaching lower belts? How often is a MT player's training interrupted so he can walk the new students through the basic stances, etc...? If all you do is train yourself, no interruptions, your training time is more efficiently spent. That one was for you, MP. :D

Now, I just need someone to step up to the plate to prove my theory. :D

[Merryprankster]

Specialization is the key to quick proficiency. Proficiency in a wide area of diciplines takes longer to attain than proficiency in one or two. If you try to learn all of it at the same time, your training time is spread thin, which means it takes longer to reach proficiency in every aspect.

I thought we'd already established that MOST TCMA styles really don't do this "all at once." Weapons, for instance, are reserved for later usually. SC works on throws primarily with a tad bit of striking. According to E-fist, his style has only ONE kick. Others may have more, but, then again, how much grappling--standing or ground, is really included? From what I've learned/seen here, not really that much - and not with a very high level of proficiency to my eye - yet, that level is frequently considered 'very good' by others without an extensive grappling background. It's comparable to the three or four "throws" you learn in MT. MOST of the CMA styles are striking styles primarily with some very small grappling type components. To argue there is a true volume of information problem seems rather flimsy to me.

[Merryprankster]

The school culture probably affects the ability of the average KF player as well. How many hours of a BJJ player's day is spent teaching lower belts? How often is a MT player's training interrupted so he can walk the new students through the basic stances, etc...? If all you do is train yourself, no interruptions, your training time is more efficiently spent.

Yes, exactly! You have to be selfish with your training time, and even more so when training for a competition. When I'm drilling, and I'm working with a lower belt partner I INSIST they work on something they know. I'm willing to tweak something for them, but I am NOT going to teach them a move wholesale. I also insist they work on the SAME MOVE with me until we are done drilling, because I'm not going to spend 15 minutes of my drill time teaching them how to fix 3 different things.

Thing is, that's a personal method. I AM still teaching them. But one that has minimal impact on my training time. Quite frankly, I fequently direct them back to the instructor or another belt because I am either not proficient at what they are trying to do, or because somebody else does it better. I will extensively coach if I'm good at what they are doing though. It works out pretty well in the long run.

[MasterKiller]

I thought we'd already established that MOST TCMA styles really don't do this "all at once." Well, you don't spend 6 months only punching, then 6 months only kicking, then 6 months only locking, then 6 months only throwing. You learn it all at the same time, and how to use one to set the other up. Whether or not the information is voluminous, it still takes more time to put something like that together than say, if you only had to learn to throw against someone who only wanted to throw you, or only had to learn to punch and defend against someone who only wanted to punch you... That's my opinion, anyway.

[red5angel]

MP - going back to the sport training thing a few pages back (I don't get on the internet on the weekends so missed everything in between)
I can certainly understand where you are coming from. Although you claim that most sport type arts can't complain too much about the state of their art, I'd throw karate and TKD out there as an example of what can happen to an art to make it more sport then martial, and that is essentially my point.
Im not arguing that sport fighting doesn't have it's applications on the street or in "reality", only that sport fighting tends to water down a sport, certainly the practitioners are in better shape, but they may not be in a prime position to fight outside of the ring if need be.
I know how much you love to hear it, but sometimes there are techniques you train that you cannot use in a sport environment, they aren't meant for it they are designed to hurt or maim a person. These along with the fact some people are interested in the more martial aspects of training then sport are why I say it's not necessarily the best answer.

[Merryprankster]

Nah. I disagree entirely.

Take thaiboxers-- punches, kicks, knees and elbows and "throws" - very similar to CMA in that regard, yet information volume doesn't seem to be an impediment here.

Wrestlers, Judoka, etc. It doesn't matter. The volume doesn't really increase or decrease all that much--you take out the punching and kicking and replace it with other throws and takedowns. And quite frankly, some of those throws are VERY different from each other requiring totally different stepping and upper body movements. It's not like they are all variations on the same theme...never mind the set-ups involved.

[red5angel]

I have to agree with MP on training, while it might seem you could be taking in more with certain types of arts and certainly some arts have more to them then others, I don't think it's a matter of volume when training, I think if you train properly and train consistantly and as much as you can, then you will get the same results. Alot of those semi and professional types, wrestlers and other competitiors train a few hours a day minimum and train consistantly, that's why they have such a high degree of skill.
I can however say that some systems that seem to be more pared down, have the advantage that the majority of their applications run along the same lines, more like variations on a theme for some arts and so may be easier to pick up in the grand scheme of things.

Certainly it is all about how much time you train and how you train.

[Merryprankster]

I'd throw karate and TKD out there as an example of what can happen to an art to make it more sport then martial, and that is essentially my point.

Shidokan/Seidokan comp format for full contact Karate isn't martial enough? Or Kyokushin? Go talk to Shonie Carter or Francisco Filho. BOTH very dangerous people, IMO.

How about Cung Le, Al Pope, etc for San Shou?

TKD? Nowhere close to full contact. That's a light contact vs. full contact problem. Not a "sport" issue.


These along with the fact some people are interested in the more martial aspects of training then sport are why I say it's not necessarily the best answer.

I'm not arguing this or the "illegal technique" thing (don't even get me started on that malarky...). I'm arguing that the simple fact that these arts are permeated with people who are EXPOSED to full contact competition and that newcomers are exposed to those people really betters the art because those guys "know what it takes" to actually DO the thing they are in the process of learning. Now, a good CMA school will have the same type of people. But apparently, that's few and far between. Hence the concern about the "state" of the arts, and hence my suggestion that embracing full contact fighting rather than rejecting it, can improve the overall state of things.

[MasterKiller]

Take thaiboxers-- punches, kicks, knees and elbows and "throws" - very similar to CMA in that regard, yet information volume doesn't seem to be an impediment here.

I suspect the real difference lies in intensity of training, not necessarily methodology. See, I'm not unreasonable. :D


The volume doesn't really increase or decrease all that much--you take out the punching and kicking and replace it with other throws and takedowns. You are a stupendous grappler, but your boxing needs some work, yes? If you spent 1/2 your time boxing, and 1/2 your time grappling, would you be as effective a grappler? What about if you trained to fight MT style the whole time you were learning BJJ? Would that affect your grappling?

[Merryprankster]

You are a stupendous grappler, but your boxing needs some work, yes? If you spent 1/2 your time boxing, and 1/2 your time grappling, would you be as effective a grappler?

I would probably be as effective, but my learning pace would slow down. In fact, one of the reasons I quit boxing was to work on my BJJ even more.

But I bet I'd be just as effective a fighter! (maybe even better).

And that's my point. Total information volume isn't the issue here.

Thai Boxers learn to punch kick knee elbow and "throw" and produce fighters in relatively short order. San Da gyms teach to punch, kick, knee and throw in relatively short order. Kyokushin gyms who send people to full contact tournaments teach them as well. Those are the "most like" CMA examples I can think of at the moment.

An an analogous note, Wrestlers work on a whole host of takedowns, pins, reversals, defenses and escapes that can be quite distinct from each other in terms of body movements required. Judoka work on a list of throws that are also quite distinct from each other. Never mind the mat work, which is REALLY different from the standing stuff. Yet, they can produce effective artists in short order.

The information volume is enormous all the way around. Using it as a limiting reagent so to speak, seems to be a weak argument.

If it's a training intensity problem across the board, that speaks to a problem with instruction and/or student body. The only way to fix it is to up the intensity. But that still has nothing to do with the volume of data being transmitted.

[red5angel]

Shidokan/Seidokan comp format for full contact Karate isn't martial enough? Or Kyokushin?

I threw the karate and TKD thing out there as an example of some arts who have problems because of their sportive format, it's a generalization and I think you get the point. While there are some goor karatekas out there, most of the can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and they spar and od competitions all the time.


I'm certainly all for full contact sparring I think it's absolutely necessary for a martial artist for all the reasons you pointed out, but competing in sport events is not the end all to be all by any means.
also, while I understand your 'frustration' merry, over the idea of "deadly" or "illegal" techniques, it's a legitimate complaint. I'm not using it as an excuse I'm just saying thta there are certain things you cannot do in the ring period. A perfect example would be eye gouges, I have yet to see a venue that allows them, but they are a good self defense technique, undeniably.

[MasterKiller]

I would probably be as effective, but my learning pace would slow down.Which is all I'm saying. If you want to be good at both, it takes longer.

Yet, they can produce effective artists in short order. Against other players operating under the same rules. If wrestling and Judo were producing better all-around-fighters (which is what I think Kung Fu is supposed to do), then I think general proficiency would take longer. If a wrestler doesn't have to worry about being punched, he doesn't have to practice not being punched.

As a side note, why do you think it takes 10 years to get a black belt in BJJ, but MMA fighters can be effectively created in a couple of years?


I'm just saying thta there are certain things you cannot do in the ring period. A perfect example would be eye gouges, I have yet to see a venue that allows them, but they are a good self defense technique, undeniably.I find it hiliarious that when a KF person claims techniques are not allowed in the ring, they get scoffed at; yet when a MT player *****es about not being able to use elbows in such-and-such match, or someone brings up illegal Judo maneuvers, no one sees the correlation.

[Merryprankster]

A perfect example would be eye gouges, I have yet to see a venue that allows them, but they are a good self defense technique, undeniably.

I have no argument with this at all! But to me, these things are like icing on the cake. They are extras once you know how to fight. I mean, if you already know how to kick then whacking somebody in the nuts isn't a far stretch. If you're knee on belly and need to eyegouge, be my guest.

And, if you're not tuned to think about those things, the basic fighting stuff will see you through as well. A good right to the chin does wonders! HOWEVER, you can't use the illegal techniques thing as an excuse to not being able to win in a certain competition--that just shows a problem with your ability to fight, not a venue problem - within reason here - clearly a straight boxer will have a problem in a wrestling comp, but I suspect we're all reasonable people here.




but competing in sport events is not the end all to be all by any means.

I didn't say it was. My only point was that having a strong core of full-contact competitors in any art improves the art overall because they bring that experience and training attitude with them.

[rogue]

I'd throw karate and TKD out there as an example of what can happen to an art to make it more sport then martial, R5A, it's not sport that hurt karate or TKD, it's trying to sell it to the masses. Tai Chi doesn't have much of a sport element but it suffers even more than TKD or karate in effectiveness. Same with WC, it didn't become popular because most schools are hardcore in their training.


The information volume is enormous all the way around. Using it as a limiting reagent so to speak, seems to be a weak argument. ****, you smart.:cool: That's one of the major differences in my current training and how I was recently trained. Now footwork, targeting, standup grappling, throws, kicking and striking are all taught at once. I am not expert at any of them yet but I can make them work against most of my old training partners who train more often, been training longer and out rank me. Their individual techniques blow mine away but they can't seem to put it all together past punches and kicks. I'm learning more all at once rather than waiting until I have x number of stripes on my belt.

[MasterKiller]

My feeling is that somewhere, at sometime, Kung Fu limited full contact sparring because of the risk of injury. With the advent of modern protective equipment, I think it makes more sense to practice/ train with increased contact. However, since tradition is so important in the KF culture, and since the "that's the way I was taught so that's the way you'll be taught" attitude is hard to shake, it is hard to get people to accept that training differently can be better.

[red5angel]

I agree that those things are indeed "icing on the cake" and not necessary to win a fight, that's why I wouldn't discount sport fighters as viable on the streets, as you point out a right hook to the chin can work wonders.



I didn't say it was. My only point was that having a strong core of full-contact competitors in any art improves the art overall because they bring that experience and training attitude with them.


Agreed, but full contact does not necessarily mean competition. Don't get me worng I'm all for competition, I'm enjoying the training for it myself! I just don't think it's for everyone or necessary to train effective fighters. Certainly many CMA or TMA people need a reality check, doing forms and light sparring drills will not build an effective fighter alone.

[Merryprankster]

Which is all I'm saying. If you want to be good at both, it takes longer.

No, you're not actually JUST saying that. You also edited out the part where I pointed out it would make me a better FIGHTER overall.

What you're really saying is that CMA is trying to teach it all at once and that's why it takes longer. I'm claiming that's not true at all because like anything else, it sacrifices one thing for another. MOST CMA styles rely on striking. They have what we will loosely call "grappling" for the sake of argument. And they PRACTICE that way! The "grappling" is mostly lousy because mostly it's not practiced very often or very well. It's like BJJ "striking."

MT mostly relies on striking but has something we will loosely call "throws" for the sake of argument. And they PRACTICE that way!

San Da has striking and lots of throwing. And they PRACTICE that way!

Yet, MT and San Da have a reputation for producing fighters in short order. TCMA does not.

I'm trying to identify the disconnect. I don't think information volume (ie, drinking from the fire hose--getting it all at once) is a valid answer to that question, since at least two examples of arts with similar technical knowledge requirements demonstrate otherwise


I find it hiliarious that when a KF person claims techniques are not allowed in the ring, they get scoffed at; yet when a MT player *****es about not being able to use elbows in such-and-such match, or someone brings up illegal Judo maneuvers, no one sees the correlation.

Actually, most of us that are competitors in these arts just say "you knew the rules going in, tough ****."


As a side note, why do you think it takes 10 years to get a black belt in BJJ, but MMA fighters can be effectively created in a couple of years?

It only takes ten years if you go three times a week and don't practice much - although different instructors will hold people back specifically to win competitions (sandbagging). I've found the common thread in all the stories about "so and so" got their BB in 4 years, what a phenom!! Can really be boiled down to--"so and so has a reasonable amount of natural talent, and worked his/her ASS off for that belt."

Well, this is a great question. Why CAN MMA fighters be effectively created in a couple of years--I might point out they have to worry about groundwork extensively, in addition to all that stand-up stuff, yet they seem to be able to fight in relatively short order...

[Merryprankster]

Agreed, but full contact does not necessarily mean competition. Don't get me worng I'm all for competition, I'm enjoying the training for it myself! I just don't think it's for everyone or necessary to train effective fighters. Certainly many CMA or TMA people need a reality check, doing forms and light sparring drills will not build an effective fighter alone.

I didn't say that full-contact did mean competition. But it's a hell of a lot more organized and more consistent than hoping the kwoon does full contact sparring. You have to admit that's very spotty.

Hence my belief that strong sportive competitors throughout an art improve its quality.

[Merryprankster]

As a side note, why do you think it takes 10 years to get a black belt in BJJ

I might also point out that BJJ also has a reputation for producing fighters in short order--whether they have a black belt or not. Lots of dangerous blue belts out there, with only a year or less of training...

[red5angel]

Yet, MT and San Da have a reputation for producing fighters in short order. TCMA does not.


I have been trying to figure this out as well. So far the only big difference I have been able to observe is the difference in teaching and student base. TMA and CMA, doesn't tend to attract the hard working types like some of those other arts do. The other thing, is like you have been talking about MP, those are sport arts so far TMA has not made that leap and I have to wonder why? Most TMA or CMA types have to train in another style to get into competitions because kungfu competitions are practically unheard of.

[MasterKiller]

No, you're not actually JUST saying that. You also edited out the part where I pointed out it would make me a better FIGHTER overall. Yeah, it would make you a better overall fighter. But you wouldn't be the grappler you are. And you wouldn't be challenging Roy Jones Jr after 3 years of splitting your time, either.


I'm claiming that's not true at all because like anything else, it sacrifices one thing for another.I'm not trying to argue that CMA teaches a complete system of ground fighting that would rival BJJ. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm arguing that. What I'm trying to say is that because the fighting in CMA is broader than say, western boxing or wrestling, the training isn't as focused on particular aspect. Like I mention to 7* in another thread, you learn 100 things, but pick the 15 you can use and train them ad infinitum. That's how you learn to really fight. I could be contradicting myself, but what the hell.


I might point out they have to worry about groundwork extensively, in addition to all that stand-up stuff, yet they seem to be able to fight in relatively short order... I don't think their stand up game is usually very good. Most MMA fighters slug it out until they can clinch or shoot with a reasonable expectation of success. Your view of CMA grappling is valid, but I see it akin to the MMA guys like Liddel who only need enough ground to get back on their feet. The goal of CMA, afterall, is to not get knocked down. Traditionally, once you hit the ground, you were pretty much the loser. I don't see many MMA types that could actually out-box a boxer, or beat a MT guy in straight MT rules.

[Suntzu]

Most TMA or CMA types have to train in another style to get into competitions because kungfu competitions are practically unheard of. ummmm... let's see.... kuoshu... san da... kickboxing....
I don't see many MMA types that could actually out-box a boxer, or beat a MT guy in straight MT rules. don't watch K-1 or pride much?....

continue guys... this is interesting....

[red5angel]

ummmm... let's see.... kuoshu... san da... kickboxing....


Let's see, we can start with TMA? Since when were any of those TMA? I know alot of guys who are into the TMA who do those types of tournemants, because they can't find TMA tourneys, they have to train and participate in more modern style tourneys.

[MasterKiller]

I have been trying to figure this out as well. So far the only big difference I have been able to observe is the difference in teaching and student base. MMA has it's loafers and shltbags, too. They just want you to believe everyone comes out of their classes a killer. I just think the crap-birds hang around a CMA school longer.

LKFMDC has 500 students, but only 50 (I think he said) of them actually train for competition. If a BJJ class had 100 students, I would wager maybe 20 them were pretty serious about applying their skills. Across the board, I think the % of serious students are probably about the same.


don't watch K-1 or pride much?....I do, but maybe not enough. Sapp ain't what I'd call a great striker.

[Merryprankster]

MK,

I think we may be talking past each other. This is my argument:

The "martial" goal of MA's is to learn to fight. Preferred "methods" aren't important here.

TCMA's have a reputation of taking awhile to produce decent "fighters." MT, San Da, Judo, etc do not have this reputation. In fact, they have a reputation of producing reasonably competent individuals in relatively short order.

Question posed: Where is the disconnect?

Answer from at least one or more posters: TCMA has "more techniques," a greater volume of information and since students are taught this body of information in an integrated format (ie, throwing, locking, kicking punching, etc all at once), it takes longer for them to learn to use it.

My response is that there are other, arts/formats that have a similar volume of information, even if the information is different yet, they do not seem to have the same problem producing fighters in considerably shorter order.

Thus, it doesn't seem that the claim of information volume is a truly valid one. There must be some other reason. I'm trying to identify what that reason is. I'm willing to entertain the idea that it could be "drinking from the firehose," but that doesn't quite ring true to me.

If you can make a good case for it being the volume of information, I'm willing to listen. So far, I haven't heard one that can't be refuted by citing MT, San Da, etc. This would seem to point to a different reason, at least to me.

[Suntzu]

they have to train and participate in more modern style tourneys. and the issue is?......

I do, but maybe not enough. Sapp ain't what I'd call a great striker. ummm lets see.... cro cop... Botha got his azz whooped by a 'low-level' mT fighter... Sudo... Ludwig... Mo Smith...

but really... i'm don't wanna hijack the thread...

[Merryprankster]

MMA has it's loafers and shltbags, too. They just want you to believe everyone comes out of their classes a killer.

Absolutely true! Of course, that's marketing for yah!


If a BJJ class had 100 students, I would wager maybe 20 them were pretty serious about applying their skills.

You'd think so, but this hasn't been my experience. Most compete at least twice or three times a year. Some don't at all of course, but they seem to be in the minority.

[red5angel]

actually Masterkiller, I understand that all arts have serious students, however what I have noticed from personal experience is that kungfu tends to attract, "flowery" wanna be mystics while some other arts, MMA included tend to attract more aggressive willing to do what it takes types. that's not to say there isn't any cross over but so far that has been my experience.

[MasterKiller]

My response is that there are other, arts/formats that have a similar volume of information, even if the information is different yet, they do not seem to have the same problem producing fighters in considerably shorter order. In short order against whom? is what I'm suggesting. Against other players with the same rules/limitations/background.

If a Judoka was training to fight against people who kick, I suggest their progression would be slower.

My contention is that KF training is designed to handle a broader range of circumstances, and by that very nature, it takes longer to learn.

MT players produce good fighters in a short amount of time because they don't worry about getting swept when that high roundhouse is launched. Add a sweep, and it changes the dynamics of the learning. Add a some more throwing, it changes the complexity. Take the gloves off and have to worry about someone choking you or punching you in the throat, and you have even more to worry about and train for. Add ground fighting, etc.....All of the sudden, that MT player might not be so prepared.

I know that your point is that these disciplines generally produce people better equipped to handle a general fight scenario in a shorter amount of time. Again, my argument is that training intensity is the key here, not methodology.

You'd think so, but this hasn't been my experience. Most compete at least twice or three times a year. Some don't at all of course, but they seem to be in the minority.Our students compete all the time in local/regional stuff. Even the sucky ones. Entering the competition gives you an A for effort, but it doesn't make you a better fighter. Unless you learn something from your performance, it's just masterbation.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Specialization is the key to quick proficiency. Proficiency in a wide area of diciplines takes longer to attain than proficiency in one or two. If you try to learn all of it at the same time, your training time is spread thin, which means it takes longer to reach proficiency in every aspect.

but you are doing it all within the same class...naturally, your learning time is spread thin. you don't go to one class for forms, one for weapons, one for chin na, etc. you learn it all in the same in the same class, in which you have limited time to work whatever is on the agenda for that given night.

I'm in MT twice a week, but the whole class is devoted to MT. BJJ pretty much every night, and the whole class is devoted to it. Judo 3 nights a week, but the entire class is solely judo.

[b]The school culture probably affects the ability of the average KF player as well. How many hours of a BJJ player's day is spent teaching lower belts? How often is a MT player's training interrupted so he can walk the new students through the basic stances, etc...? If all you do is train yourself, no interruptions, your training time is more efficiently spent. That one was for you, MP. :D[/b\

you don't just train yourself. When you have been around for awhile, you begin to assist. I help the newbies in MT. other guys help me in MT. I teach in the judo classes on occasion and assist on a regular basis. I still get a workout and training time in because of things like live drilling and sparring.

[MasterKiller]

but you are doing it all within the same class...naturally, your learning time is spread thin. you don't go to one class for forms, one for weapons, one for chin na, etc. you learn it all in the same in the same class, in which you have limited time to work whatever is on the agenda for that given night.Bingo.


still get a workout and training time in because of things like live drilling and sparring. True. But I'll use myself here as an example. I spend 4 hours, 3 times a week, at my school during operating hours. Just during those operating hours, I could be training 12 hours/week. Instead, I actually get about 6 hours of actual training time, which is why I have to come in when the school is closed. If you ask around, A LOT of KF players will tell you similar stories. In fact, I have heard people say they teach 4 hours for every 1 hour of training. That's the culture of an average CMA school, and it can be cumbersome to your overall training.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
MP - going back to the sport training thing a few pages back (I don't get on the internet on the weekends so missed everything in between)
I can certainly understand where you are coming from. Although you claim that most sport type arts can't complain too much about the state of their art, I'd throw karate and TKD out there as an example of what can happen to an art to make it more sport then martial, and that is essentially my point.
Im not arguing that sport fighting doesn't have it's applications on the street or in "reality", only that sport fighting tends to water down a sport, certainly the practitioners are in better shape, but they may not be in a prime position to fight outside of the ring if need be.
I know how much you love to hear it, but sometimes there are techniques you train that you cannot use in a sport environment, they aren't meant for it they are designed to hurt or maim a person. These along with the fact some people are interested in the more martial aspects of training then sport are why I say it's not necessarily the best answer.

if you are referring to point fighting, then sure, because you aren't really allowed to hit. Look at kyokushinkai...

[red5angel]

My contention is that KF training is designed to handle a broader range of circumstances, and by that very nature, it takes longer to learn.

While KF MIGHT be focused on handling a broader range of stuff, in general, it takes years to learn any system. I believe any good martial arts instructor who is of course not bound by tradition, should teach you easy to use and quick to learn techniques right away.

From what I understand it takes people quite a while to make black belt in BJJ....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Bingo.

which brings us back to point 1 - format.

True. But I'll use myself here as an example. I spend 4 hours, 3 times a week, at my school during operating hours. Just during those operating hours, I could be training 12 hours/week. Instead, I actually get about 6 hours of actual training time, which is why I have to come in when the school is closed. If you ask around, A LOT of KF players will tell you similar stories. In fact, I have heard people say they teach 4 hours for every 1 hour of training. That's the culture of an average CMA school, and it can be cumbersome to your overall training.

once again, format. My workout and training doesn't come from reviewing basics - that's stuff I do on my own anyway. In class, the majority of workout and benefit I get is from calesthenics, live drilling and sparring. We spend 30+ minutes sparring, and plenty of time doing calesthenics also. As opposed to showing a big section of a form and having to make stance corrections and such for every step of the form, we will work a few specific things, have them drill them in the air then go straight to the focus mitts. we rotate out every round, so you will get a chance to work with everyone, meaning that you will get to make corrections on everyone. Afterwards, you will spar, once again, rotating with everyone.

I think that's where the problem lies - you can't really do that while teaching forms, unless you break the form down into single technique drills and only cover a few per session.

[rogue]

in general, it takes years to learn any system. But why? What is it about most systems that make it take so long to learn? Learning is different from mastering or preserving an art but why the long learning curve? In the book Angry White Pajamas the author takes the Aikido instructor course which earns you your black belt in one year if you complete it. Lloyd Ervin(sp?) earned his BB in BJJ in 3 years. Find out how they did it. Learning a system to be usable should be somewhat easy.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I find it hiliarious that when a KF person claims techniques are not allowed in the ring, they get scoffed at; yet when a MT player *****es about not being able to use elbows in such-and-such match, or someone brings up illegal Judo maneuvers, no one sees the correlation.

Because they deal with it anyway. They don't not compete and say that they wouldn't do so because technique x wasn't allowed.

[MasterKiller]

Because they deal with it anyway. They don't not compete and say that they wouldn't do so because technique x wasn't allowed. They still make excuses when the lose. Same thing. Maybe worse.

Would you rather here a someone say "You only beat me because I couldn't kick your knees." or "I'm not going to fight because I rely on a lot of knee kicks, and the rules prohibit knee kicks, so I can't fight the way I train"?

[SevenStar]

I wouldn't want to hear either, but give more respect to the guy who stepped up and competed, despite knowing that he had techniques which couldn't be used.

[SevenStar]

And now that I think about it, I can't recall the last time I've heard that...

[MasterKiller]

I haven't heard the latter excuse either; nevertheless...

[Merryprankster]

MK,

Pay close attention to what I'm saying--it's not the VOLUME of information that is the issue.

IMO, it's the format, as 7* suggested. That's where I was trying to head with this, but I didn't want to have just say it. I wanted to get there without doing that.

It's not the amount, it's the how.

Take a Judo class I had once. We went through SIX different throws in one hour. That's WAY too much data. One throw, one hour. 30 minutes sparring...That's more like it...

[MasterKiller]

Funny how 7* always says what you were trying to.... I knew you were fishing, because most of the time, you already know what you want to hear, you're just waiting for someone else to confirm it. You ain't that slick, bro. ;)

Anyway, no one is arguing against that. In fact, I was even proving your point for you with all my talk about class culture, teaching time, and limited training time.

CMA is still taught like it was when you had more than 1.5 hours 3 days a week to learn and practice. And for the most part, I don't think it was ever designed to turn a lot of people into killing machines all at the same time. I think most of the hand-to-hand stuff was developed by teaching a handful of dedicated students for extended periods of time before letting them loose on the world. When the possibilty of getting killed/mangled in a fight was something to consider, people were more cautious about who they crossed hands with and how good they were before they did it.

Perhaps it could be taught more efficiently, given limited training time for modern students, to make them more productive faster; nevertheless, it's not the destination, it's the journey. And while you may not value someone else's curved and winding road, others may not understand why you can't appreciate the scenic route.

[rogue]

it's not the destination, it's the journey. Yeah, but sooner of later you have to stop kicking the tires and pull out of the driveway.:p I don't mind the journey but I'd at least like to make stops at the Grand Canyon and Las Vegas on the way.

[Archangel]

"it's not the destination, it's the journey"

Why does it always have to be one or the other; it's always been my experience that the truth always falls somewhere in the middle.

[Merryprankster]

I knew you were fishing, because most of the time, you already know what you want to hear, you're just waiting for someone else to confirm it. You ain't that slick, bro.

The reason I don't say them is not because I'm waiting for confirmation. It's because I've learned I'm not allowed to comment on TCMA training. I 'just don't understand it,' so my comments lack validity...


In short order against whom? is what I'm suggesting. Against other players with the same rules/limitations/background.

Really? Who are the sparring partners at your school? Are there not rules in place during full contact sparring?

I'm trying to understand how MT, which has throw counters against the kick that are legal, or San Da, which allows throwing period somehow translates to "short order against whom." The reason you picked Judo in your subsequent example is because it doesn't have striking. You could have used boxing too. But here I point out two sports that DO have to worry about getting punched, kicked and thrown.

And yet... they can produce good fighters in a relatively short amount of time. Format.

If you want to train another way, again, that's fine. Be my guest. But if you're just looking to answer the "Why does it take so long?" It's because the training methods aren't optimal from a fighting perspective.

Of course, now we get to have the "but 20 years from now!" Argument. :D


it's not the destination, it's the journey.

And if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.

[MasterKiller]

I'm trying to understand how MT, which has throw counters against the kick that are legal, or San Da, which allows throwing period somehow translates to "short order against whom." Yep. But they wear boxing gloves, which means they won't be joint locking. And you can't hit them in throat with a Leopard paw strike, or choke them, blah blah blah. Everyone has rules, except the NHB guys, who also have rules, but still call it NHB.


Really? Who are the sparring partners at your school? Are there not rules in place during full contact sparring? Sure, there are rules. But there is also the possibility that I can get thrown, swept, kicked, kneed, elbowed, punched, arm-barred, choked, ankle-locked, head-butted (yes, we practice head butts with head gear on), etc. I've been hit in the throat before too, and that shlt ain't funny.

I'm not saying it makes me tougher or better, because really I don't train enough to be a killer, but when I spar I have to consider the possibility that anything can be used, to a degree, which means I have to be prepared for more variety of assault. IMO, at least.

I suppose you could only practice straight blasting anyone with a punch when they get within arms reach of you, and develop enough power in that shot to knock most people back, regardless of what they are trying to do to you. But what fun is that?


And yet... they can produce good fighters in a relatively short amount of time. Format. Like I've said before, my brother takes BJJ/MMA, and he can't beat me. Training intensity and natural ability have more to do with application than format of class structure. What's the difference between me and him? I train harder, even though he is probably spending his time more efficiently in class.

You can argue that training intensity is directly correlated to class structure, but I already agreed with you on that.


The reason I don't say them is not because I'm waiting for confirmation. It's because I've learned I'm not allowed to comment on TCMA training. I 'just don't understand it,' so my comments lack validity...I liked your other answer better before you edited it. This one isn't smart @ss enough.

[Merryprankster]

I liked your other answer better before you edited it. This one isn't smart @ss enough.

I'm trying to avoid getting pulled into that kind of crap today.


Sure, there are rules. But there is also the possibility that I can get thrown, swept, kicked, kneed, elbowed, punched, arm-barred, choked, ankle-locked, head-butted (yes, we practice head butts with head gear on), etc. I've been hit in the throat before too, and that shlt ain't funny.

Well, there you go. More people should train like this if they want to employ what they know effectively. But you know what? That doesn't seem to be the norm. Hence my comments about sport-fighting in the first place. How do you improve it across the board? FWIW, I would argue this is a format issue not just intensity.


I've been hit in the throat before too, and that shlt ain't funny.

This is quite true.

[MasterKiller]

I'm trying to avoid getting pulled into that kind of crap today. Sorry. I'm a smart @ss in real life, and sometimes it creeps into my posts when I'm not concentrating on my chi.*

Anyway, I'm not trying to de-value your argument, because you know you're right, and I know you're mostly right. But at the same time, I do think the CMA culture clash with sport fighting is superficial on many levels. In the end, it's all about becoming a better fighter. What it means to be a fighter is the issue. MMA has a very definite answer for that. CMA is kinda all over the board.
































*That was joke.

[Merryprankster]

Anyway, I'm not trying to de-value your argument, because you know you're right, and I know you're mostly right. But at the same time, I do think the CMA culture clash with sport fighting is superficial on many levels. In the end, it's all about becoming a better fighter. What it means to be a fighter is the issue. MMA has a very definite answer for that. CMA is kinda all over the board.

Truth!

I agree that it's superficial. I also agree that the issue is one of semantics. That isn't to say that that issue isn't important, just that it hinges on definitions.

re: being a smart ass. Yeah, me too. Unfortunately, that doesn't always seem to translate well on the internet.

Here's to future beers in a cheesy nudey bar or something... Just leave your chi at home. No reason for exploding the strippers.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Yep. But they wear boxing gloves, which means they won't be joint locking. And you can't hit them in throat with a Leopard paw strike, or choke them, blah blah blah. Everyone has rules, except the NHB guys, who also have rules, but still call it NHB.


with mma gloves, you can do that. With thai gloves, you can do very limited grabbing, as the the gloves may be open and closed - like a cupped hand. This allows for scooping an opponent's kicks.

[Unmatchable]

They should have a venue where they use mma gloves and san shou rules.

[No_Know]

I Thought to respond to this that I picked up along the way.

"whatever happened to discussing how to translate techniques from forms work, or other traditional methods to real world fighting?"

You don't translate techniqes as much as realize their versatility or application potential. It is a tuning towards an ability perhaps. But you might need to be more than a give me! I paid, where are the answers I desrve to be told, type of peson. They can get a lot. And teachers can (that can) choose to instrruct them as far as they understand to teach/learn.

I was not told how to spell every new word to look it up. I was guided to look it up for myself. When I tried best I could consistantly somewhere after frustrated I was given more direct help.

I sometimes foud the meaning without being told nor frustrated. Today I derive the meaning for myself, accept if I spell it wrong or take the meaning the wrong way.~

" What happen to those guys and girls who instead of retreating to another art to cover holes try to find ways to do that within the frame work fo those arts they study?"

I believe in successful defending within a low horse-riding stance and use the old eara movies and stories as guides of where I should aim. I am not to think that I shall arrive there. But I will get furtheraimming for the planets than I will aiming at a set ceiling.

People have their experiences I had mine and though I thought my definitions were absolute I came to realize (at this place and the like, that there were other me's--curious people who found something interesting in which to invest. They were different in their individuality and I might No_Know of the similarities...I only studied the One thing Of the possibilities...I could not Know.

One of us is right or both are correct or neither id right. But you think you are live and learn. I'll live~ perhaps I might learn.

At worst weare all right and won't listen to eachother because we only understand that there is One Way If I'm right you must be wrong. It seems Kung-Fuy to sigh shake your head and smile at these people, tell thel that they are right lete them live, eventually (not for me to invest) learn if they Need.

"Grappling is a great example, why does one always have to study BJJ to understand grappling?"

Not everybody, a lot perhaps. People can be direct thinkers. its on the ground. They struggle. If blue is the only color I am told a thing is, there are No colors than blue. The differentiation word colors (suggesting more than one) does not exist. Only Blue.

Shades of blue would be a lot for me please let me go at my pace. Do other than challenge my reality with the truth. Do other than force Red upon me. If it's there for me , I'll get to it.

If you know more than me ot The Truth. Please, smile at me, and be happy that I am at least Aware of Blue.

Enjoy as much of the electromagnetic specrtrum as you care. Some of us will settle for the rainbows.

[Oso]

dude....

if you ever want to start a cult, I'll be one of your bodyguards.

[shaolin kungfu]

I had to save and print off that post. Is that ok no-know?

[Oso]

sk, I'm his head bodyguard, you have to pay me first.

then...maybe in a few hours...you can see him.

[shaolin kungfu]

ummm, sure, as long as its nothing sexual.

[Christopher M]

They should have a venue where they use mma gloves and san shou rules.

Koushu.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
TCMA's have a reputation of taking awhile to produce decent "fighters." MT, San Da, Judo, etc do not have this reputation. In fact, they have a reputation of producing reasonably competent individuals in relatively short order.

Question posed: Where is the disconnect?

Not enough open-ended, resistant two-person drilling, or even two-person drilling in general in most CMA schools.

*looks around for someone who still doesn't accept this*

[No_Know]

shaolin kungfu, what you said you did, is O.K.


Body guard? Finally safety in an "unsafe":-) world... for me to some extent.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by red5angel
Although you claim that most sport type arts can't complain too much about the state of their art, I'd throw karate and TKD out there as an example of what can happen to an art to make it more sport then martial, and that is essentially my point. LOL at people who think that sport karate and TKD practitioners are somehow inferior to kung fu practitioners at applying their techniques in a real fight or self-defense situation.

[BlueTravesty]

lol at people who use lol as a blanket statement against x art or y style.

[BlueTravesty]

I do have to say though, the Dog Brothers have just about the best Sparring setup EVER. Awesome stuff, that.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
LOL at people who think that sport karate and TKD practitioners are somehow inferior to kung fu practitioners at applying their techniques in a real fight or self-defense situation. You think Sport Karate or Sport TKD is any more prepared than Modern Wushu to handle a real altercation? Being in good shape is bonus, but backflips and machine-gun kicks aren't going to save your @ss in a real fight anymore than a butterfly double-twist.

[red5angel]

LOL at people who think that sport karate and TKD practitioners are somehow inferior to kung fu practitioners at applying their techniques in a real fight or self-defense situation.


Actually knifefighter, I have always said that the two fights I have seen involving dedicated martial artist were involving TKD guys, and they both won using techniques considered useless.
I will say however that the arts hae been watered down greatly since their beginnings in Japan because of a more sportlike bent.

For instance, this shaolin school I visit once a week has a TKD competition class, and I did some sparring with them the other night. I consistanly heard, "Although that might be good for fighting, I would never do that in the ring because you get more points by doing this - "
After class when we sparred more openly without the rules, I ofund that many o fthem had a hard time breaking old habits (although trith to tell many of them were still pretty good fighters overall.).

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
You think Sport Karate or Sport TKD is any more prepared than Modern Wushu to handle a real altercation? Not MORE prepared, but AS prepared.

[red5angel]

You think Sport Karate or Sport TKD is any more prepared than Modern Wushu to handle a real altercation?


Actually I would say yes. Atleast the TKD and sport Karate guys are fighting in some way or another.

[SevenStar]

definitely at least as prepared.

[BlueTravesty]

Well, they're more likely to be prepared to dodge or block a blow, but in a real fight they might still be thinking "wait till the judge sees THIS!"

[No_Know]

"The other thing, is like you have been talking about MP, those are sport arts so far TMA has not made that leap and I have to wonder why? Most TMA or CMA types have to train in another style to get into competitions because kungfu competitions are practically unheard of."

Stereotypically Traditional Kung-Fu people need not go into a sport situation with kung-fu, that's for what football and rugby and the such basically are.

Let's see, fighting and competition to prove myself to others and to me "mixed martial arts" and at least some tournaments. Kung-Fu I'm told not to fight (pick fights); and lose the Need to prove myself to anyone except my Sifu.

"Mixed Martial Arts" people I think want to excell for them selves. But Kung Fu people want to excell for their Shifu (head teacher person).

If you claim to know how to fight you attract the curious and the arrogant~ flak magnet. Kung-fu stereotypically maintain a low profile and no fighting even if provoked...when all you see are battles, there's fight to the end stay strong keep fighting. To win the war there can be invest in loss, lose some ground to gain a more strategic ground. But to someone with their eye on the battle no loss might be acceptable.

Someone out there, have there ever been any day or hour that you didn't think you'd make it passed? Any age by which you thought you wouldn't make it? But it passed. You made it beyond? These gym people and tournament people see and say this makes sense (what they do). O.K. Yes.

And some say drop the clouded talk, speak English~. But thats the thing about language and culture. There might be No Words in your language into which for you to translate. That's why they know and you don't you have to share/become somewhat attuned to that way to get it. (ancient greek, arabic both might have more parts of speach than English).

As Humans we understand (though migh not agree with (societies/culture)) each other's thoughts, conveying those with words is part of, in the way.

"Mixed Martial Arts" people, Muay Thai people, Sambo people... might be known as competantant fighters relatively quickly compared to Kung Fu (to me Kung-Fu is not about the fighting). Yet they perhaps spend years picking-up experience, and strength and increasing/gaining skill(s). Competant fast but good comes later. Luck is interwoven throughout.

Kung-Fu gets the body strong first and really good foundation. Then the fighting learned counts more because it is delivered with stronger material.

But without this nurturing time and foundatiuon building, the Kung-Fu heard of is perhaps not the same.

Those who said it are right. It Is the individual. Kung-Fu is not faulty. The methods and practices are sound. It makes no claims. It is to itself. It exists and thrives. Individuals cloaked i banner of Kung-Fu to be someone, look within yourself, you are already someone~. Those who claim it's Kung-Fu's fault/ blame Kung-Fu, might also look within themselves or the people in whom they see lack.

Some might think. Some might say. Perhaps some such.