The ultimate critical thinking thread

[Chang Style Novice]

Let's see if we can post rational, well supported arguments in here and ignore any 'cause so-and-so said so' type stuff, as well as personal attacks and anecdotal evidence.

[shaolin kungfu]

okay, whats the topic?

[Former castleva]

This should be interesting.

I argue that the method recently described by CSN should be preferred.

Someone continue on that.

[lkfmdc]

ah, you all just SUCK :p

(sorry, couldn't resist) :D

[Former castleva]

, you all just SUCK


This is your place;
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27818

[lkfmdc]

been there, done that.... where's my T-shirt?

ok, enough, I'll leave this one alone for NOW :D

[David Jamieson]

If we analyze mousaka, compared with lasagna, we find that lasagna probably has it's origins in mousaka.

some say lasagna is a poor imitation of the real mousaka, i would agree for the most part, though i have seen some lasagnas that were of an especially tasty nature. I have also seen bad mousaka.

I guess it's the chef and not the dish is what it comes down to.

cheers

[old jong]

UHMMM?... (http://www.alcofielen.com/pics/forumpics/threadsSUCK/stupid_thread/bsmeter.gif)

[Merryprankster]

I've got to go with Kung Lek here. I would hesitate to call it inferior, but I agree that Lasagna likely has its roots in Moussaka. When the Romans conquered the Greeks, they took in a lot of Greek slaves....who taught the Romans how to cook. Most northern Italian versions of Lasagna use a bechamel--which was definitely of Greek derivation, as far as the various Italian city states were concerned. Yeah, we use the French name, but seeing as it was Catherine De Medici--who married one of the French monarchs and brought Italian cuisine to France--who actually introduced the French to cooking.... Greece to Rome to France. Not a big stretch of possible links.

Certainly, a casserole type dish isn't exactly a unique stroke of genius. That said, I think it's probably safe to say that Moussaka, or something very like it, was likely the forerunner of Lasagna.

[Ralphie]

Everyone knows the Chinese introduced pasta to the Italians...ever hear of Marco Polo? Duh!

[Merryprankster]

Actually, that's a common misperception. Various places in the mediterranean had pasta prior to the Chinese story.

Things do happen concurrently.

[rogue]

Lasagna is a purely Italian creation. Chinese little tiny rice things, Italians big wide glorious noodles. No connection.

[David Jamieson]

This still raises another fairly mysterious turn of events.

Of course, I'm speaking of Shepherds pie.

How is it that moussaka, became lasagna and ultimately wound up in the latest iteration which is shepherds pie.

let's face it, in the world of culinary arts, shepherds pie is the jkd of layered dishes.

They (the english) even went so far as to develop a matching dessert, the trifle, which is also a layered foodstuff, but at that point, imo, they were just showing off.

I understand that the roots even made it as far south as portugal, but they wound up with more of a seafood stew than any real pie like consistency in their layered dish offerings.

really makes you wonder if it really did all come from the indus region or africa after all.

cheers and bon apetit! (i'm learnin some frenchification these days)

[Ralphie]

sarcasm rarely translates on the net...**** modern contraptions.

[rubthebuddha]

Merry and CSN -- ever had pastitso (http://www.recipesource.com/ethnic/europe/greek/pastitso1.html) before? different take on the lasagna-like casserole, particularly because of the nice cinnamon flavor to the meat sauce. give it a shot. mom makes it every year for orthodox easter (to go along with the lamb, manestra, koularakia, baklava, etc. we make) and it's about as fantastic as you get. it's even better the next day.

think about it -- a ground-beef-based meaty lasagna with a cinnamon kick. soooo **** tasty.

[rubthebuddha]

i just realized -- changstyle starts a thread on critical thinking, and it veers toward food almost immediately.

CLEARLY, we have our priorities in line. :D

[David Jamieson]

i'm steering clear of beef for a while.

pun fully intended.

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
i'm steering clear of beef for a while.

pun fully intended. i never thought i'd ever be forced to boo another moderator, but kung lek left me no choice:


boooooooooooooooooooo.

(hiss, also)

booooooooooooooooooooooooooo. ;)

[shaolin kungfu]

I never knew a pun could burn

[CaptinPickAxe]

RTB your StrongBad dances to a 100bpm tempo...just thought you'd like to know...

Now I have to find out how this ties into the critical thinking thread...

I'll get back to you on that;)

[Chang Style Novice]

Getting back to critical thinking...

Why steer clear of beef? If your fear is mad cow disease, it is only passed along through nervous system tissue! You don't have to worry, as long as you know what cut of the cow you're eating (possible exception - T-Bones, because the T-bone is actually a vertebrae.) So, avoid 'unspecific' type meat like ground round and sausage, and you'll be A-OK.

Critical thinking - learn it, know it, love it.

Get informed.

Use logic.

Don't be a ****in' idiot, okay?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Don't be a ****in' idiot, okay?

ooh, vulgarity.:D that should be on the nitwit thread ;)

Critically thinking, there was only one case of mad cow so whats the chances of you getting that beef that wasn't circulated?

[Chang Style Novice]

Cappy Pickaxe has broiled the correct for 2.5 minutes on each side after marinating it overnight in A1 sauce.

[CaptinPickAxe]

bold and spicy, even.

[MasterKiller]

If you want to test your meat for Mad Cow disease, please download this instructional manual.

http://www.geocities.com/thirty_sixth_chamber/MADCOW.zip

Delete the "http://" to get it to work.

[David Jamieson]

no thanks, I'd just rather not eat it.

at least not until they resolve the whole feed lot issue and straighten it all out. It's just one less hassle I have to think about by not eating it at all.

besides, chicken and tofu are better in my opinion.

Did you know that there have been more than 140 cases of bse in humans since 1994? I promise you, that number is going to explode horrendously. Mark my words, Jan 16th 2004, I said it.

Now someone go and dig up that other thread where I said: the Bush administration will NOT find wmds in Iraq. lol

I'm telling you, sometimes I'm pretty prophetic in my outlook.

cheers

[MasterKiller]

Oh yeah, well, I just overhead two engineers discussing plans for (insert big oil company name) to develop ------- Tools to test for oil on the moon and Mars. No lie. Guess where Bush has his head?

[David Jamieson]

actually, mars , the moon and hurricanes in june are mere distractions so we don't all think about the continuing war that was supposed to have ended already but the body count keeps going up and the iraqi underground is getting stronger apparently.

the attacks won't cease until the us is outta there, plain and simple.

the moon, pu shaw, what a lame move bush. lamo!

cheers

[fa_jing]

Well I for one, question the validity of the Lasanga - Mousaka connection. Because when the Romans conquered the Greeks, it was long before the Americas were discovered by Europeans. The tomato comes from the Americas, and didn't appear in Italian cooking until the 1500's. Quad Erat Demostratum.

Now my wife makes a great "pasticho" based on her mother's recipe - who is a former employee of one of the top restaurants in Caracas. It has eggplant (instead of pasta), ground beef, and ground lamb. Ricotta, parmesan, and Mozzerella cheeses. No cinnamon, just nutmeg and maybe Thyme, black pepper things like that. Tomato paste, onions.

:drool

[rubthebuddha]

fa-jers -- lose the egg plant, toss in some cinammonaonamomon, and i'll bring the galactoboureko. :p

[Merryprankster]

The tomato comes from the Americas, and didn't appear in Italian cooking until the 1500's. Quad Erat Demostratum.

Yes, but prior to the tomato, you had bechamel... which is still used in Northern Italy in Lasagnas.

So, there you go.

[Merryprankster]

actually, mars , the moon and hurricanes in june are mere distractions so we don't all think about the continuing war that was supposed to have ended already but the body count keeps going up and the iraqi underground is getting stronger apparently.

I thought this was the critical thinking thread....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


I thought this was the critical thinking thread.... :rolleyes: And what would you suggest the recent excitement from Bush is about?

[Merryprankster]

It might, be a genuine interest in going to Mars/building a base on the moon to further scientific advancement.

Much of the technology we take for granted today was a direct result of the space program looking for new and improved materials and ways of doing things. We benefitted enormously.

NASA has been horribly underfunded for some time now and in order to really glean any benefit from it, we need to throw some money at R and D...but to do that you have to have a goal and something to show for it. Congress doesn't like to allocate funds to things where they can't show off the results.

I think it's quite a stretch to state that such an announcement is designed to distract people from Iraq. In the first place, Iraq is front page news and topic one on news broadcasts. We're inundated with it.

[MasterKiller]

Election year. Wants to be seen as forward thinker. Enough said.

Inviting himself to a Martin Luther King Jr celebration to try to increase his 9% support from black voters was classy as well.

[Merryprankster]

Election year. Wants to be seen as forward thinker. Enough said.

Which is not the same as trying to distract us from Iraq at all.

Desiring to be seen as a forward thinker and trying to distract us from Iraq are related exactly how?

Iraq is the turd on the table. Not much distraction from it.

[MasterKiller]

It's not the same thing. But his timing is transparent.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Yes, but prior to the tomato, you had bechamel... which is still used in Northern Italy in Lasagnas.

So, there you go.

MerryP has taken the Correct, slathered it in a sauce made from flour, butter, and boiled milk....flavored it with Onions, nutmeg, thyme, clove and bay leaves, and chowed it down with 5 other book club members.

[Merryprankster]

It's not the same thing. But his timing is transparent.

Fair enough. Although I'm not entirely certain he announced this with timing in mind. That may have been PART of the equation, but G-dub really does believe in U.S. power and technology, for good or ill. I think that also had a great deal to do with it.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm voting for the first time this year...and my vote is to get bush the F#$@ outta office...

that is all...

[blooming lotus]

what was that date bush gave for men in mars?...the russians have decided to get there 5-10yrs earlier feeling the guys are so good, they deserve a welcoming committee...spare no expense LOL at those hospitable Russians...very considerate I feel :D

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay, Critical Thinkers - what possible benefit could result from putting men on Mars, or for that matter, from a permanent settlement on the moon?

I gotta tell ya, I'm coming up empty, and I'm all for government putting money into pure science and funding NASA.

[David Jamieson]

i think the money spent on that would go a long way for the less fortunate of the world.

housing, clean water, medicine, clothing, food and education.
These are problems that are not insurmountable.

With correct effort and intent I think these should be on the priority list for solutions waaaaaaay above golfing in micro gravity and risking the billions of dollars on getting away from earth.

I am as baffled as anyone about it and I too am for the study of as many conceivable things in the universe as possible. But for sure, the money could be better spent.

cheers

[rogue]

The poor will be with us always.


housing, clean water, medicine, clothing, food and education.These are problems that are not insurmountable.
Yup, we fed the Somolians, Haiti is fixed, Sudan is a paradise, Afghanistan is a model of efficiency, the Palastinians and Isrealis are inter-marrying. Really, look at all the things we thought insurmountble but we did them anyway.


Okay, Critical Thinkers - what possible benefit could result from putting men on Mars, or for that matter, from a permanent settlement on the moon? Lasagna prepared and baked at a fraction of Earth gravity. It'd be beautiful.

[Merryprankster]

What could the benefits be?

Improved synthetics designed for space/bases.
Improvements in energy efficiency.
Improvements or new ways to generate power.

Those are just off the top of my head. I imagine there are others. You ever watch the show connections? It shows how one thing led to another basically. You could potentially get some cool stuff going just by pushing the boundaries.




housing, clean water, medicine, clothing, food and education

Not insurmountable? On the contrary, I believe they are. The 3rd world is subject to a kind of corruption we are completely unfamiliar with. How do you propose to mediate this without being accused of interfering with sovereignity? How do you convince, say, a traditional society that your improvements are not an infringement on their way of life?

The "facts and figures" frequently cited as saying this is well within our capabilities fail to take into account issues like this. When you make these improvements, you have to send people there to make it happen. Just their presence is frequently enough to trigger the idea that their culture is being contaminated by the west--or that the west in pushing their values onto their country.

Additionally, who will pay for the maintainance of these improvements? A continuous stream of money or aid into a poor nation drives inflation higher without developing a tax base necessary to maintaining those improvements. Never mind, the crumbling mess that is left behind when the money dries up.

[Merryprankster]

This doesn't mean we shouldn't fight the good fight as best we can though...

[rogue]

How about getting our kids to dream big, to get excited about something? Hell I'm just an old space ager who still tunes into the NASA channel, watches 2001 and wonders why aren't we there. I want my flying car or at least a jet pack!:mad:

[David Jamieson]

ain't saying the answers are readily at hand, but i am saying, spending billions on sending things into space is not the answer.

mp-
the sovereingity of 3rd wold nations never seemed to interefere with removing their resources by outside nations. But i guess that's a contractual international law thingy.

btw, i'm not talking about handouts to nations outside our own. We have problems right at home, in both our nations that are huge.

Think globally act locally in other words. For "christian" based societies, I don't think we're cuttin it in the least.

cheers

[rogue]

Maybe we could send all the poor to Mars. That way they get some sweet looking spaceman outfits, Tang and all the resources Mars has to offer.

[MasterKiller]

I know you guys think I'm just player hatin' Bush, but I swear they were talking about winning a contract to develop tests for the presence of oil on Mars and the Moon at (insert big oil company) this morning.

[rogue]

Are THEY at it again? I'm telling you guys that THEY are playing us as puppets.:eek:

[David Jamieson]

"they" certainly are rogue.

[Merryprankster]

"they" certainly are rogue.

See, this is exactly the sort of tautological thinking that I have a real problem with.

When you say "they" are manipulating us like puppets, you preframe the question in a very specific way that, quite frankly, begs it.

"They" are manipulating "the public," is usually followed by something like "that's obvious if you're 'well-informed'." Then, if you go look at the same set of data, but come to different conclusions about what is going on, that just proves that "They" are manipulating "the public!"

From a personal psyche perspective, it also reinforces the idea that "you" see "THE TRUTH" about what's going on - after all, "you" aren't taken in by the propaganda. Which is always so much nicer than simply being wrong, or finding out the argument has some rather serious holes in certain places.

It goes nowhere at all...

MK--if they are talking about how to go about looking for oil, I'm not sure how that's a bad thing...provided it IS a dead planet. I doubt the return on the investment would be very high, but hey! People have dreamed of tapping into resources on other planets for years. I think it's quite a stretch to suggest that oil companies pushed Bush to set up a NASA program like this. It's POSSIBLE, but so is you dying tomorrow. (boy, I'll feel bad if you get run over by a bus.)

For purely sentimental reasons, I WOULD prefer that the moon stay free of any visible (from earth) changes.

[rogue]

OMG, THEY have gotten to MP!:eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

Improved synthetics designed for space/bases.
Improvements in energy efficiency.
Improvements or new ways to generate power.And you think these benefits are a result of space travel, or do you think these developments would benefit space travel?

I think you've got to rearrange your cart and your horse here, MP.

[MasterKiller]

"they" = drilling, cementing, and fracturing Ph.ds who develop the technology used to drill, case, and ultimately pump about 80% of the world's oil wells.

You know, not all of us here work at Burger King. :rolleyes:

I think it's quite a stretch to suggest that oil companies pushed Bush to set up a NASA program like this. It's POSSIBLE, but so is you dying tomorrow. (boy, I'll feel bad if you get run over by a bus.)I don't think they pushed him. I think he saw possibilities in an already existing program.

I have no problem with looking for resources elsewhere. Humans, ultimately, need to explore in order to survive as a species. I just find it funny that Bush is willing to spend billions to get to Mars because there may be oil, but he found the Kyoto treaty, which might save this planet, too expensive to sign.

If I get hit by a bus, my wife has orders to shoot you in the knee caps.

[Merryprankster]

I think you've got to rearrange your cart and your horse here, MP.

WOW!

Not at all. When people said "Let's go to the moon," research had to be done to make that happen. New processes, new equipment, new technology.

The same thing is true here. Set a goal, then you have to develop the means to do it. This stuff doesn't just happen out of thin air. Without the goal, nobody will do it just because. Well, they might, but instead of a team of good minds it might be one or two guys, independently...things will move slower....



"they" = drilling, cementing, and fracturing Ph.ds who develop the technology used to drill, case, and ultimately pump about 80% of the world's oil wells.

I really don't understand what you're talking about here. My comments about "they" were specifically directed at the idea that "they" are playing us as puppets. I have no idea what your comment relates to. I'm not knocking what you said, I just really don't understand what you mean here. Maybe because I work at Burger King ;)

Re: the Kyoto Treaty. While I don't know what the exact numbers are or what numbers Bush was listening to, I would imagine that say, even a 1% negative impact on the U.S. economy - never mind the continuing costs from year to year - is probably greater than the amount Bush plans to allocate to the space program.

I'd like to note that I'm not actually defending the decision, I'm just pointing out what I believe are some oversimplifications.

[Ralphie]

Was wondering if anyone here had read the short story "The Big Space Fu(k" by Vonnegut? Basically a story about how in the future we humans had messed the planet up so bad, that we had to send a rocket filled with jizz into a time-space dimensional hole . Which then populated the Universe with humans. In the future, everyone swears, including the president. So, the president calls the mission "The Big Space Fu(k", as the rocket with the jizz looks like a *****. And so it goes :D

[rogue]

, but he found the Kyoto treaty, which might save this planet, too expensive to sign. This planet has already survived meteors, mass extinctions, ice ages and many other things. Saying that Kyoto will "save this planet" is just hubris.

[Ralphie]

Saying that Kyoto will "save this planet" is just hubris.

Why did you use "hubris"? Hubris means with hate or anger off the top of my head. Like "He attacked the man with hubris. Just wondering what you meant here?

[Merryprankster]

I thought hubris was prideful beyond arrogance. ie, it's so prideful to believe that ANYTHING we do will somehow save or **** the planet that it's hubris to believe that.

[Ralphie]

I should have looked it up in an English dictionary...lol. I was a classics major in college, and in Attic Greek it means wantonness, wanton violence or insolence. Hence, the confusion.

[Merryprankster]

insolence.

Ah, I think this is the one. I've always heard it used in this context.

[MasterKiller]

MP,
Sorry, I thought you guys were using my intentional vagueness (so as not to get fired) to show I was pulling something out of my @ss. 'They" don't like me to talk about this stuff.:D


This planet has already survived meteors, mass extinctions, ice ages and many other things. Saying that Kyoto will "save this planet" is just hubris.The planet may have survived, but many species died out in those processes. I'm suggesting the planet may become unable to support life as it currently exists. Life will adapt, but I don't fancy the idea of my great great great grandchildren having Gills.

[Merryprankster]

Sorry, I thought you guys were using my intentional vagueness (so as not to get fired) to show I was pulling something out of my @ss. 'They" don't like me to talk about this stuff.

No worries. I work in intel. I spend a lot of time not talking about things :D