Hung Gar Tang Fong Lineage?

[Hungfutkune]

Hello I am new to posting to Forums but I thought I would try it out and see if anybody could help me with a question I have.
I used to study a traditional Hung Gar style in Vancouver Canada. It was very small classes and eventually became very closed door. The instructor was very good. When I used to go and watch other hung gar students compete in tournaments, their Hung Gar did not look like ours. Sure there was some similarities but there was also differences. I was told that the other Hung Gar people I saw were from Lam Sai wing's Lineage and ours was from Tang fong's lineage. Is there any other people out there that study Tang Fong's lineage and what is your opinion on the differences of lineage styles?

I did study some Lam Sai Wing Hung Gar but I did not find the teacher as knowledgable as my first teacher. I did notice that the first form they (Lam Sai Wing) taught was Mui Far Kune and in my original school Mui far Kune was the second form. Our first form was Hung Fut Kune. It was the only hung gar form (to my knowledge) that did not start with a salute. Does anybody out there know this form?? Looking forward to your replies!

[hasayfu]

For a good site on Tang Fung lineage go to http://www.yeeshungga.com/

What people teach as their first form varies from school to school even in the LSW branches. The first "pillar" or common form is Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen. Until you learn this form, you can not completely say you are learning either TF or LSW Hung Gar.

That's not to say you are not learning good kung fu or even Hung Gar. GGFFK is a very long form and intimidating to newbies so most schools will teach basics and a minor form first to get the student prepared.

Moi Fah as taught to me by my Si-Gung Chiu Wai is used as a form to bridge the gap between GGFFK and Tiger/crane (Fu Hok Serng Ying Kuen). It teaches key fighting concepts and basic Hung Gar foundations. That said, I've now seen lineage from John Leong, Chiu Wai and Chan Hong Chung doing Moi Fah and while I see the base, they are significantly different.

As far as Hung Fut Kuen is concerned, the name probably speaks for itself. It's fom Hung Fut and not Hung Gar. Nothing wrong with that, just not considered one of the pillar forms.

[DeathTouch]

Many People now debate over whether their lineage is from Tang Fong or LSW, which in fact is a waste of time because there are many old masters and lineages which do agree have documentation that Tang Fong was a student of LSW and not a classmate as some prefer to say.
Some people will disagree with what i say becuase they are so caught up with that on going debate and just wish to say to those people that it is not worth debating this issue we are all brothers and all that matters is that we preserve good Kung Fu for the future generations. God Bless

[hasayfu]

DeathTouch, not sure where you are getting your news but this has been settled. http://www.hungkuen.com/news-jointstat.htm

You say we should not debate this which I agree with you so why bring it up? HungFutKune was just asking to learn more about the Tang Fung lineage which is a valid and active lineage regardless of what history you attribute to it.

[once ronin]

silly,

mui fa kuen is not from lam sai wing either.

[DeathTouch]

hasayfu,

I never stated that tang fong lineage was not valid i just stated that he was a student of LSW that is all. And as for the link you provided that was simply a statement on an agreement i am not worried about what any one agrees to behind closed doors for that does not affect me I simply speak for myself and represent myself cuz it is for myself that i train not for the spirit of Wong Fei Hung, LSW, Tang Fong or any other diseased individual for they trained to their best and so do I.

So hasayfu, I was just providing some light on the lineage for him that others who are washed by folklore will not share, in my opinion it does not matter whom tang Fong trained with i was simply sharing some knowledge. I would also like to ask you to beware the new Hung Franchise which has become the Tiger Shulman of Kung Fu............................God Bless

[Southern Fist]

Once Ronin:
S.S. Leong of Seattle,WA has Mui Fa kuen in his curriculum and his sifu Wong Lee Studied under Lam Sai Wing this is from his book titled Beginning Shaolin Hung-Gar Kung-Fu. Which happens to show the Mui Fa Kuen.

Death Touch:
I was also told that story by my Sifu as well. I trained in Both versions as others here in this forum. To me it is the same at the end.The applications, movements, Theories, Concept. As my Sifu tells me "We are all one family". Also I agree there are alot of franchise schools out there who claim alot, BUT that is THEM as you mentioned. You train for yourself and that is the end result.

HFK:
Keep searching, But remember at the end it is the same whatever or who's version you learn. It becomes yours.
:cool:

[Je Lei Sifu]

Although it has been said on this post that it does not matter who Tang Fong learned under, it seems to matter to some. I have never trained under Lam Sai Wing's branch nor do I know much about Lam Sai Wing's branch. However, there are many that I associate with from the Lam Sai Wing branch. What I have learned is that the best thing to do is to leave well enough alone and just concentrate on the development of Hung Ga Kuen and to come together as a true family and not to bicker about things which don't really matter.

Although what I am about to say may not matter either especially to the ones who are 1) willing to continue a fight which is not going to change anything accept to pull us ****her apart or 2) just care about training their gung fu only and it doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it is bona fide and helps to make the individual a better person in some way.

Our history (Tang Fong's Story) is this when it comes to Hung Ga. He originally learned Hung Ga under Lam Sai Wing. After the incident at the Luk Sin Theater, he started learning gung fu under Wong Fei Hung. We consider Lam Sai Wing and Wong Fei Hung to be teachers to Tang Fong.

Some will say that since he learned under Lam Sai Wing and Wong Fei Hung, then Lam Sai Wing would be Sifu and Wong Fei Hung Sigung. I think that's a fair assumption, but we also have old articles from Hong Kong news papers that speak of Tang Fong and Lam Sai Wing realtionship as one of friends and not Teacher/Student. If this is the case, then Wong Fei Hung would be considered sifu to Tang Fong. The other issues is this, who did Tang Fong Bai Si to? Was it Wong Fei Hung or Lam Sai Wing? I can't answer it because I was not there nor does it matter. I know for a fact that Tang Fong's hung ga is not consistant with what is done in the Lam Sai Wing lineage due to Tang Fong changing things or maybe Lam Sai Wing changing things.

But the issue is this also and if I offend anyone with what I am about to say, then forgive me because I don't mean to do so. If Tang Fong was a student of Lam Sai Wing, and he learned gung fu before the Luk Sin theather incident, then why in the world is Lam Jo ranked as being more senior to Tang Fong on the Lam Jo Alumni Chart? According to some sources the Luk Sin Incident occured in 1908 and Lam Jo was born 1910. That shows that Tang Fong already had years of training before Lam Jo started learning gung fu.

I know someone is going to say that he was Lam Sai Wing successor, but common information states that Lam Sai Wing never picked a successor.

According to our lineage, Tang Fong learned from both Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing. Whatever anyone else want to believe as the truth for them is fine too. But we can debate about this issue for an eternity and never get anywhere but mad. The important thing is to train your gung fu like there is no tomorrow and spend less time on the forum talking about things that don't make a difference when it comes down to the individual.

Another issue I would like to clear up is the issue of Tang Fong not changing anything Wong Fei Hung has taught him. Whoever Tang Fong learned from, he has changed many things he has learned. The evidence can be seen in all of the so-called pillar sets. Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, Fu Hok Seung Yin Kuen, Ng Ying Kuen and Teet Sin Kuen has moves which are not done in any other Hung Ga lineage. Tang Fong has movements that are considered trademarks of Tang Fong's Hung Ga. Any student who study the real Tang Fong Lineage Hung Ga will know these movements. Just by watching someone performing, it would automatically be recognized as Tang Fong's Lineage. So forget what you may have heard and learn the truth of the matter. There are several Tang Fong people that represent the style as it is suppose to be performed and not what some say it is.

Peace

I wish the best to all of you.

Jerry Battle.

[once ronin]

southern fist,

john leong wrote a book, no the bible.

there are a few in Guangzhou from the wong fei hung linage and the wong kay ying linage. who dont practice the tit sin and they also have no knowledge of the wu dip jeurng form and mui fa hand form.

no to argue but trying to understand where movements were added, by who and when.

[DeathTouch]

So much breathe for such little words , All I said was that tang fong was a student NOT friend of LSW i have seen hand documents were he has signed in as LSW's student that is all so accept , dont accept big deal just keep working out

[Je Lei Sifu]

Deathtouch,

It's amazing that what I was saying was not directed to you. However, what I would like to ask you, is were you there when those documents were signed. I doubt it. Just like I was around to prove or disprove anything I have said previous. You made a statement and so did I.

It's not how big the breathe or the words are, it's how well you handle yourself be it verbally or physically.

Peace

Jerry Battle.

[Southern Fist]

Once Ronin:

You mentioned WFH and WKY lineage not knowing these forms: Butterfly Palm and Mui Fa Kuen it is because they are small sets created by Hong Kong based HG practitioners in the Mid 20th Century long after WFH and WKY passed on.

As for your comment on John Leong I was pointing out the book which mentions Mui Fa Kuen. (What's with the bible comment?)

Now for you second question who are the individuals who created them. I am not sure. I have heard various HG Practitioners claiming there formation. I perfer not to mention names due to others will take offense if I am wrong.

Hope that helped.

[DeathTouch]

JLS, May your training bring you much wisdom and then some


peace,
Jerry's Daddy

[Je Lei Sifu]

Deathtouch,

You wish you were my daddy. Then you would have something to be proud of.

Anyway, first get some anger management class under your sash then ask your Sifu what Mo Duk is. Maybe then you'll grow up.

Nuff said.

Peace

Jerry Battle

And tell you sifu Jerry Battle sent you.

[Je Lei Sifu]

Deathtouch,

After reading your earlier post, I had realized something. I didn't want to bring it out in the open just in case my guess is wrong so instead I sent a PM to you.

It's up to you whether you would like what I asked of you to be public or not.

Peace

Jerry Battle

[South Paw]

Je Lei Sifu,

Some good points you made in your writing above.

It looks like Lam Yo had no Sihing, when we look at the later fabricated Alumni Chart. Strange indeed.

[Je Lei Sifu]

South Paw,

It is very strange. As a matter of fact the history of hung ga in general is strange. There are too many different stories even within the same family lineage. The only thing we can do as practitioners is to listen to what is being said and research. I think each family and each lineage all have something in common when it comes to the history but it's the parts that we cannot agree upon that we need to research.

Peace

Jerry Battle

[South Paw]

Je Li Sifu,

Anyway it's not up to one family to dictate what is the true history.

Regards

[DeathTouch]

HEY JLS, we were having a nice convo through emails behind the scenes and you come on here trying to talk tough man, pick a role you gonna be cool or act hard. we emailed each other and i found you very respectful and on here u talkin as if your in charge lol you need to be easy man and extend courtesy when courtesy is given

[Je Lei Sifu]

Deathtouch,

I'm not sure about the time in which I tried to act hard, that's the last imagine I would like to portray of myself. If you can help me out by pointing out where this has according, I be sure to apologize to everyone if I came of like that. As far as me respectful, I tried to be that way at all times. Some people on this forum know me personally and they can assure as well as I can assure that I give nothing but respect to everyone.

Peace.

Jerry Battle

[Pork Chop]

Friends will help you keep secrets.
A good friend will drive 5 hours out to the middle of the desert to help bury your secrets. :D

I consider JLS a good friend and will support (from personal experience) that he is nothing but a respectful individual, even around people he does not like. He's not the type to talk tough, preferring matters to be settled civilly or with hands, and not heated or boastful words.






JLS
Yo, we need to set up another road trip so we can put the hurtin on some yardbird and some hobbits. :D

[Je Lei Sifu]

BMore Banga,

lol. It's been a minute since I had some of that DC yardbird. Unfortunately, I didn't get to hook up with a DC Hobbit.

Guess you can't give me the 411 on that anymore:(

When are you coming back to Philly?

Peace

Jerry Battle

[Pork Chop]

true, but there are always san shou chix ppprrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ;)


I visit my folks all the time.
I just never know which # you're gonna be at.
I'll find out the next time they want me up there & let u know.
I'm thinking Easter or sometime in March.
Feb's gettin busy with work stuff; but I still may end up there.

[Je Lei Sifu]

Dats Wassup,

Give me a call at either number or email me before you come up. We can hit Chinatown again for dinner. Depending on what time you get into town, we can even pay a visit to the mo gwoon.

Peace

Jerry Battle

[DeathTouch]

no harm no foul , i just prefer being direct. but peace train hard

[Je Lei Sifu]

Deathtouch,

No problem my man. Stay cool.

Peace.

Jerry Battle

[HungMoJue]

Ya know what I think? I think everyone's Hung-Ga is wrong except for MINE! My Sifu's Sifu's Sifu has stated this and although he is long passed away, his word is law. So you guys can argue till the cows come home, only I have the real deal!!!!!
The proof whether anyone really knows Hung-Ga is if they know the Lung Hung Bot Gwa=Dragon walks the eight Diagrams-special footwork. I f they don't know this technique, then they don't know the higher levels of Hung Ga, for without this, the hand techniques are useless.

[Hungfutkune]

I must say that I am a bit disappointed in my first posting at this forum. I had no intention of starting a debate on which lineage is the REAL hung gar. I just wanted to know what the difference in each lineage was and if there was any other people who studied Tang Fong lineage. To say that one lineage is better or more original than the other other is akin to saying one style is better than another. I have trained in both Hung gar and 7 star praying mantis and both are very good styles. I would only show my ignorance if I said that one was more superior. I think it's all dependant on the Sifu and the student on which style is better for themselves. No matter what lineage, each student and sifu have different qualities they bring to a style and I believe that it doesn't matter if it's Lam Sai Wing, Tang Fong or even Wong Fei Hung were your teachers your style is going to change because we all have different body styles and strengths and weaknesses. The important issue is that we carry on with dedication and hard work that Traditional Kung Fu demands of us.
Thank you and I hope I have not offended anybody by this posting.

[Keng Geng]

All I have to say is, I know the sifu in Vancouver whom you refer to. He is the best Hung Gar sifu there is. I'm sorry to offend many of you, but it is the truth. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he's the best Kung Fu teacher. I really mean this, not trolling.

HungFutKune, I don't know why you're not training with him still, but if you're still in Vancouver get your butt back there if you want to learn the real thing.

[Hungfutkune]

Thanks for your reply Keng Geng,

Which sifu are you refering to in Vancouver? I did train with two of them. How do you know him?

I do agree with you, one of them is one of the best kung fu sifu's I have seen or ever met. It's only a shame that he hasn't got the noteriety that some other Hung Gar masters have. His school is very small and many of the martial arts students in Vancouver do not appreciate TRADITIONAL martial arts.

I posted originally on this site to see what other people's opinions are in regards to the differences of Lam Sai Wing lineage and Tang Fong lineage, but as to date no one has been able to answer me.

In regards to me getting off my butt and start training again? Thank you for your concern but unfortunately due to work commitments I have been relocated to China, and funny enough there is no Hung Gar in shanghai that I have been able to find. I have started to train in Northern Style 7star praying Mantis while I am here though. It is also a very good style if taught properly.

Anyways thanks again for your reply and your support of one of my sifu's. (I just hope we are talking about the same one). Also feel free to email or pm me. We actually might know each other.

[hasayfu]

I posted originally on this site to see what other people's opinions are in regards to the differences of Lam Sai Wing lineage and Tang Fong lineage, but as to date no one has been able to answer me.

What is not answered? You asked if someone was TF lineage. You got a few. You asked about Mui Fah, I think you got that too.

Anything else?

[Hungfutkune]

I guess I didn't make myself clear in my original posting.(Doesn't anybody scroll up anymore?) I was asking if anybody knew what the differences between the lineages were? More to do with the difference in the movements and focus of the forms, breath and training. I already know the differences between the forms in Mui Far Kuen (TF versus LSW), but I was wondering what other peoples opinions were.
Also if there are any other pratitioners who know the Hung Fut Kune form and if they were ever taught it in a Hung Gar class?

Thanks

[Je Lei Sifu]

HungFutKune,

I first would like to start off by saying that the Moi Fa Kuen is not a part of Tang Fong's lineage. He Sigung is Ho Lap Tin. Ho Lap Tin trained with Tang Fong since the time he was in China teaching at the Yi Yong Tong. Ho Lap Tin learned everything that Tang Fong taught and taught these things to his students as well but the Moi Fa Kune set was not a part of the curriculum.

The Kuen Toh (Fist Sets) which were taught by Tang Fong are;

1.) Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen
2.) Fu Hok Sueng Ying Kuen
3.) Ng Ying Kuen
4.) Gau Duk Lin Waan Kuen
5.) Teet Sin Kuen

Although there are some physical differences between Lam Sai Wing's and Tang Fong's system of training, the faht (method) is still the same. More or less the shape of some movements are different, but the applications are the same.

The other difference is that Tang Fong lineage breaks the Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen into two different sets because of the lenght of the form which is hard for some beginning students. The form is broken into Gung Ji Kuen and Fook Fu Kuen. Also, Lam Sai Wing's branch does not teach the Gau Duk Lin Waan Kuen.

I hope I was able to answer somethings for you.

Peace

Jerry Battle

[hasayfu]

my, my. Your first post was answered, you said in your second post "I just wanted to know what the difference in each lineage was and if there was any other people who studied Tang Fong lineage. " buried within a bunch of other stuff, which was good by the way.

OK, I should read closer next time. [:)]

Unfortunately, your question needs some qualification. That's like asking what is the difference between the two sifu's you saw. I bet a lot on the surface and probably more as you dig. In the end, however, it's the similarities that bind us as family.

For example, Subitai on the list and I started at the same time with the same sifu. We worked out together for an extended time and pretty much share the same philosophy and understanding of Hung Gar. In fact, we are in frequent communication refining both.

That said, if you were to watch us perform our Hung Gar, you would see differences. I guarantee that his students and mine look more different. And I'm talking about students who have trained for over 3 years and are currently still studying from us.

Now you are asking about the difference of lineages that have 100s of 1000s of students each and down 4 or 5 generations. That should give you the magnitude of your seemingly simple question.

On the surface, Je Lei Sifu gave you some diffs. The two biggies in my mind are the use of Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma in Gung Gee and Fu Hok for Tang Fang but not in LSW and that LSW has Sup Ying instead of Ng Ying.

For Hung Fut Kune, scroll up (J/K). I answered that in my first post to you. It's most likely from, get this, the style called Hung Fut. Which is Hung Gar with Fut Gar. It's not considered a Hung Gar form by either lineages.

Hey, don't take offense to my flip remarks. Just giving back a little for your scrolling comment.

On a different topic, since you put it out there, who are the vancouver sifus? Are they open to visitors? I head up there every now and then and I make it a point to visit as many Hung Gar players as I can. We learn from our differences and from what we do the same.

[Hungfutkune]

Haysafu - no offense taken in the scrolling, if anything I deserved that one. At times I like to be a bit sarcastic but only in a joking manner, so I never want to come off by offending anyone . My sifu in Vancouver is a very private teacher so I will ask him if it is ok with him before I mention his name on this forum. Hopefully he won't mind, because he does have a lot to offer to the martial arts world in general, and honestly his Kung Fu is some of the best Traditional Hung Gar i've ever seen. I only wish my schedule would let me keep training there.
By the way when you go to Vancouver do you ever hook up with any Hung gar schools there? And where are you based out of?

Jerry battle - I also thank you for your comments. It's good to see other Tang Fong people around. In vancouver it is only LSW lineage.
I thank all of you for posting your opinions and getting me a little more caught up in the Martial Arts world. I'm sorry that I'm not thanking all of the people who posted on this forum, but to be honest with you, I'm a little lazy to scroll up!

[TenTigers]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but..Tang Fong 'style'(if I may be so bold) is also known for more sinking of the horse and gathering of power, as well as in some techniques to be a bit more yeilding in order to draw the opponent into cum na sao. This is due to the fact that Tang Fong was smaller in stature than Lam Sai-Wing-who was a pig butcher, and known for his size and strength, and also had a backround in Northen Gung-Fu as well, so the forms are played a little higher and "lighter"(?). Ok, that being said, let me also contradict myself by saying that the interpetation of the form is based entirely on the Sifu, and that there are plenty of Lam Sai-Wing practitioners that have deep low horses, and utilize whole body strength.
Hung Tiger Shullman's ? Dang! I wanted to be that!
-Rik

[DeathTouch]

you still can ten tigers , the tiger schulman's of the hung system are found in any city in your local area lol. Hint follow the yee and get robbed till ya bleeeeed lol

[Keng Geng]

I know for a fact your sifu would not want his name posted here, so don't bother asking him.

[hasayfu]

HungFutKune,

I'm glad you took my post exactly as it was meant. some good fun. If your sifu is private, I can totally respect that. I don't get up to Vancouver too often. Might go in the summer. Last time I did not visit any Hung Gar sifus there.

FYI, I am based in Sunnyvale, CA at Wing Lam Kung Fu.

Ten Tigers,

I may agree on the low stances but being "yielding" is a hallmark of our kwoon and from what I have learned, signature to Lam Jo and Chiu Wai lines. Not arguing, just from what I've seen.

That said. I do notice a lot of Hung Gar guys play their game very hard. (From both lines) I think it's how we are taught to start but soften at the high levels.