What are the "energies" of CLF?

[Fu-Pow]

After reading the site about Hung Ga's 12 bridges and having studied the "energies" of Chen Taiji for some time I'm curious as to what the core "energies" or jings of CLF are?

I can think of a few off the top of my head....

for example,

Sink- you see this a lot in CLF where you drop the opponents hands from the top down.

Split- this is in everything from joint locks to sweep. Dividing the opponents.

Crossing- crossing up the opponents arms.

Crowding-invading the opponents space

Overturning-either by a push or a fist technique.

Would the 10 seed of CLF cover this? I'm not sure because these seem to describe techniques rather than "energies." And furthermore no one can agree what the 10 seeds are.

[Ben Gash]

I have got a list of Gings in CLF, but it's at home. (Anyway, I doubt my Sifu would be too impressed if I gave all but a sketchy outline on a public forum).

[Ben Gash]

Are you still in contact with Neil McRitchie? He's really into this sort of stuff
www.choyleefut.ca

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
I have got a list of Gings in CLF, but it's at home. (Anyway, I doubt my Sifu would be too impressed if I gave all but a sketchy outline on a public forum).

Would you mind sending me the list via email?

fu_pow@hotmail.com

I don't know that I've ever been in contact with Neil McRitchie.

[phoenix-eye]

There was an IKF article on Tat Mau Wong within the last year that discussed this.

I've got it somewhere....could look it out if you want....

[illusionfist]

Within Hung Kuen, the 12 bridges is a very profound model. It describes not only energy (i.e. ging), but it also illustrates martial tactics (more psychological in nature- i.e. "squeezing" the options out of your opponent, making them feel "crowded", etc), as well as philosophy. For instance Chyun can mean "inch", coupled with the character fun you have "fun chyun" which can mean a person is wise. They can "separate" the difference between right and wrong. Gong (hard) and Yau (soft)- in life you have to know when to be tough and when to yield.

Now, IMO, it would be hard to map a model like this onto CLF simply because the two arts (Hung Kuen and CLF) are stylistically different in their layout, conceptual basis, and emphasis. Hung Kuen is more of a "gung" or skill based art, where CLF is more a "sau faht" based art. So, with CLF, you are taught exactly what you need from the very beginning. The technique, once it's taught, often reveals itself at that moment. You can see CLF's ferocity from the get-go. Nobody can dispute the danger of a gwa/ sow coming at you, haha.

On the other hand, with hung kuen, you are taught a plethora of skills over an extended period of time and later you choose where you want to specialize. Oftentimes, the 12 bridges are not taught until senior level training. So, until that point, many of the moves within Hung Kuen remain hidden. You might be able to use many techniques, but not to their full capacity and power.

If you compare the 12 bridges with the 10 seeds of CLF- you'll see that the 12 bridges definitely show manipulation of energy, whereas the 10 seeds (here i'm thinking of- kum, la, gwa, sow, charp, pow, kup, biu, ding, and jong) are more technique oriented. So with this, I would argue that the 12 bridges represents the manipulation of energy once contact has been made with the opponent. This basically forms the crux of what a "gung" type of system would do. In CLF, take Pow for instance, look at the different variations of its use (taking into account shape and usage) and you'll see that although they all can be under the designation of Pow Choi, they manipulate energy differently. So the technique of Pow is of the utmost importance, the way you manipulate the energy is up to you. It is up to you if you want more bin ging or jong ging (colliding power), etc. So with the 12 bridges, you have the "energies" that make Hung Kuen what it is, and with the 10 seeds you have the techniques that make CLF what it is. Since CLF is more specialized, the techniques take precedent over the varying energy usages.

If you look at CMA history, many famous masters started out in Hung Kuen and then moved on to something else. This could very well represent the difference I illustrated above in that they got their "gung" through Hung Kuen and then eventually found a specialized "sau faht" in another system.

I remember a conversation with a famous CLF master and when asked about CLF internal he said, "Bah! You don't need internal! All you need is a good charp choi!!" I think this might give some insight as well, haha.

Peace :D

[Fu-Pow]

Illusionfist, thanks for your answer.

I asked the same question in the clfma.com forum and I got the following response from Sifu Howard Choy of Sydney Hung Sing Gwoon. Here is his verbatim response:

By “major jings” I take it that you mean the dynamic force (ging in Cantonese) generated by the basic CLF techniques. If that is the case, then we need to examine what is involved in basic CLF training and that means looking at the 2 beginner forms, Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui. We call it how to “jad ma che kuen” or how to hold a horse stance and throw a punch.

Like all the southern styles (nam kuen), CLF techniques can be broadly divided into ma fa (methods of the horse stance) and kiu fa (method of the bridge hand). Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui train the two mentioned respectively.

Ng Lun or Five Wheels refers to five types of turning (“hun” in Cantonese) of the body, when we hold our waist with the two hands it is called “ying hun” (turning in the form), when we turn our waist left and right it is called “sei hun” (turning in the configuration), when we turn our shoulder left and right (da bok and se bok) it is called “seo hun” (turning with the hand), when we circle with our leg as in “dil teu” (suspended leg) it is called “teu hun” (turning with the leg) and when we do the si ping ma (level horse stance) it is called “bou hun” (turning with footwork).

These five types of circular motions – ying, sei, seo, teu, bou became the “five wheels” in Ng Lun Ma. Five "wheels" also have the meaning of five "rounds" (series) of movements.

The second form Ng Lun Chui further incorporated the five basic kiu fa or hand techniques, they are the chuin, pun, gwa, sow, charp, where chuin includes chuin la, pun includes pun kiu and jit kiu, gwa includes gwa chui and gwa kiu, charp includes yum charp and yeung charp and sow includes sow chui and dat chui.

These five types of basic ‘kiu fa” became the five “chui” (hammer fist) in Ng Lun Chui. Pow, kup, bil, ding and jong were added later to form the so-called 10 seeds of CLF.

So if you are looking for something to call "the 10 methods of CLF" (CLF Sup Fa) you can include ying, sei, soe, teu, bou, chuin, pun, gwa, sow, charp, with the first five relating to the ma fa and the last five relating to the kiu fa.

In CLF the kong ging, or the “hard” power and strength, is generated by being soft and flexible, that is using yeo (soft) ging to generate kong (hard) ging. So if you are looking for something to call the 12 methods of CLF then you can include the terms kong, yeo, ying, sei, soe, teu, bou, chuin, pun, gwa, sow, charp. Add the term “hun” if you want to make it 13 and so forth.

Since there are so many ways to generate ging with different parts of the body, the “short hand” listing in Taiji or Hung Ga was done to highlight the basics like I have done earlier, it is often arbitrary and limiting. We can try another number if we like, for example we can use the 8 CLF ba-gwa ging to describe 8 ging generated by the 8 directions, but there is no "official" listing that I know of. However, all the different methods of movements with different parts of the body and different types of ging are recorded in detail in the Chen family manuscripts, just not in the format you are looking for.

[CHAZ]

Very interesting, there is such a lot to think about and explore:)

[hasayfu]

Great post illusionfist.

One thing that you bring out that people miss. The bridges are not mutually exclusive and are usually used in conjunction. Also, the pairs, while not direct opposites, usually direct like a decision tree.

So if you are sensing hard energy use soft to respond, etc.

[hasayfu]

almost forgot, great find fu-pow. How does what he Choy Sifu says match with your Hung Sing teachings?

[Fu-Pow]

Well I'd never really heared things explained that way. My teacher is very practical and not so much into the theoretical side of things.