power generation

[Falcor]

If you could sum up the power generation method of your art, what would you say it is? (doesn't have to be one sentence - just one overarching, underlining principle) In the end, aren't all the arts dealing with moving/generating with the whole body? When we say that different arts have different methods of power generation, what does that mean? Are the actual end result (in terms of your body - not the effect of the power generated on the opponent) different, or is it just a difference in training methodology? Please discuss...

[red5angel]

for most it starts with rooting, and structure or alignment. Add the hips as well.

[Ray Pina]

Driving off the back leg getting the entire structure and its weight going, adding the power of the upper back and shoulder in the swing plus the added speed of the bicep/tricep (forearm) and wrist.

It starts out like a cannon and ends sort of like a whip. Mass and speed.

[No_Know]

Conceptualization/Be

I get a notion then~do other than try. It happens best I can at that instant/moment, those moments.

[mickey]

Hello Falcor,

For me it is Chi. Without Chi there is no power issuing method to speak about. It is the very beginning, the wellspring, of what you are asking about.

mickey

[CaptinPickAxe]

My power comes from my stepping. When you first start splashing hands you might find you have little power, but after practice power will come. When the hands and feet move as one then the true power will be released.

[backbreaker]

When one part of the body moves , all parts move

[count]

Bagua = Tornado energy.:cool:

Actually, power in CMA starts in the middle and goes out equally through the limbs or head. the difference is in the method of minipulating the center. Training methods of different systems develop disinctive habits making subtle differences in power generation.

[Water Dragon]

Power comes from the kua in conjunction with the lower back.

[red5angel]

CaptinPickAxe, what's splashing hands?

[CaptinPickAxe]

red5angel, check your PMs

[blooming lotus]

for me ...chi through 3 jies..ie..hand strikes..gather collect chi , direct through shoulder, elbow, finger tips...crash like tidal wave....whole body supporting....stay with the moment...what you are doing at the moment, must be exactly what you are doing at the moment, doing it to the fullest to exclusion of all else.....true zen :D

[trilobite]

It starts from the waist/hip area and moves outward through the limbs. It's all about sinking the hips and shoulders.

[David Jamieson]

exercise, conditioning, body mechanics.

the rest comes natural. just do the work and don't look for shortcuts...there aren't any. and the longer you look for secret energy the longer you are putting off doing the real work required to attain power in your physical and mental being.

as for spirituality, well, that's in the realm of the esoteric, you either have symbols at your core belief system that supports your spiritual energy, or you don't.

cheers

[Vash]

Isshinryu Karate (OMA)

I guess it would be a twisting, snapping power. Pushing through the ground, twisting the whole of the body in a sharp circle, letting the striking instrument whip into and out of the target.

Waitaminute . . . that explains most of the upper body strikes, but what about kicks? I guess those'd just be the same generation, just with movement at different points.

[David Jamieson]

You cannot get more energy than you already have.

You can only optimize the issuance of the energy you have through practice of the correct techniques.

you have to understand your form and shape, the energy you have and how to get the most out of what you have through correct mechanics.

studying the physics of it dispells any b.s

[Vash]

Kung Lek has taken the obvious and made it squeel likea pigh.

But seriously, where did that come from? Unless you're referencing the chi dude. Then I'aight.

Me personally, I throw chi blasts left and right, just to impress my woman.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(You cannot get more energy than you already have.)

That’s why I like to borrow it from others, or the earth, I have so little.

[David Jamieson]

How do you borrow what you already have?

energy is derived from air, food, water, light.

It's maintained through exercise and an intake that is moderate or optimal to your objective.

you cannot "take" energy from a tree any more than you can take it from the ground. unless you burn the tree to keep warm or plant food in the ground and eat it. The transferance that comes with a connectivity in a moment is too subtle in the bigger pic.


cheers

[bamboo_ leaf]

The wave medium is not the wave and it doesn't make the wave; it merely carries or transports the wave from its source to other locations.

(If you could sum up the power generation method of your art, what would you say it is? (doesn't have to be one sentence - just one overarching, underlining principle) In the end, aren't all the arts dealing with moving/generating with the whole body?)

The thread was about power generation I view my art more as a conductor then generator of power, a medium though which a wave passes through in most cases supplied by the other not by me. In this sense i use the others energy and very, very little of mine.

[Cung-Fu]

Power generation of my art is-

1/2 MV2

[stimulant]

initially power is brute force

after lots of training its motion and chain of events (i.e. waist / hips to shourdr to elbow to fist etc)

advance level its relaxation, technique and qi

the hard part is keep your techniue when in a situation.

[No_Know]

Kung Lek points out to us the physics based definition-ish and limitation-ish aspect of things called enery (of the Human system:body~ structure), him being literal-ish.

Kung Lek, perhaps people were thinking of Force on this topic of power generation.

Perhaps you'll help here, but Force can be shared or added to. With gravity and centrifugal at least, I can increase the Force I have limited by my physical construct.

And if Force was being used to talk about Power perhaps any anti(-ish)-physics talk of energy (though there be a Human aspect of cynergy perhaps) can be pardoned-ish.

And interesting comment(s), related to, I thought that given the sources of energy for the Human construct, unlike the mention of having energy, It was sort of being produced or perhaps actually utilized.

If we are utilizing energy that we produce(d) and "maintain"(ed) then wouldn't that be something if we had energy conversion units not commomly talked about in Science terms or arenas which the more general public Know?

Get some fresh air...I feel better.

They said I was doing a good job. I feel like I can now get through the rest of the day.

They say I'm no good and they don't like me...I don't feel like moving/doing anything.

Have some water, you'll feel better...I can see maintenace playing a role here, but not alone with the tools Kung-Lek mentioned--sunlight exposure helping the body produce vitamin D however that might be useful. Increasing the circulation (efficiency)...but more than the generalized exercise and eating. If there is even One mental process or perception that affects energy such as getting a compliment (for some perhaps), as not all is understood about the brain by Science. Perhaps there were augmentations to the physical constraints Kung Lek addressed, related to energy that people without great access to Science professors or books or the such have discovered on their own.

Because not being the static~ things that use or have energy...perhaps there's more to energy of living things than Science yet has thoroughly studied and comprehended.

Batteries and generators, as forms in Kung-Fu, are perhaps models to be studied as a thinking springboard in approaching comprehension. Opposed to, this is neat. This is interesting. This is fun. Yes, Stop here.

[count]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
You cannot get more energy than you already have.

You can only optimize the issuance of the energy you have through practice of the correct
techniques.

First of all, I think the discussion has changed from power to energy, but I disagree on both counts. You can boost energy a lot of ways. Through balanced diet, activity, rest...I also believe all schools have their own methods of refining power issuing. These are separate from the techniques. chan su jin exercises, the random circles in tai chi chuan, circle walking and "tea cup exercises in bagua, each refine and ingrain different rotations of the dan tien (among other things). With coordination, power is increased.


Originally posted by Kung Lek
How do you borrow what you already have?

energy is derived from air, food, water, light.

It's maintained through exercise and an intake that is moderate or optimal to your objective.

you cannot "take" energy from a tree any more than you can take it from the ground. unless you burn the tree to keep warm or plant food in the ground and eat it. The transferance that comes with a connectivity in a moment is too subtle in the bigger pic.
Borrowing is a slightly higher level concept in martial arts. It simply stated, means the transfer from one source to another. Like an arrow borrows from a bow. The more you pull back on the bow string and the more the bow bends, the more power is transferred to the arrow. One example is say you are attacked by more than one opponent, when you are pushed by one person you can either push back, or you can take that push, combined with your own action, and put it somewhere else. Kind of like bouncing from one opponent to another. It's using your opponents force combined with your own force to increase the power.

[David Jamieson]

Only 1 problem with that, we are humans and not bows and arrows.

energy and power are not such different things.

to get energy, you eat and drink.

to attain power, you optimize the mechanics of your given structure through use of the techniques that do that.

are you telling me that you think you can draw energy up from inside the ground and channel it through you and out of you and intro someone else in such a fashion as to affect them negatively?

That's what I take issue with because if it's not a truth, it's rubbish and it really is a misinterpretation to think that it is possible.

as for attitude increasing energy such as in no_knows point of someone telling you you are doing a good job and that give you the ebergy to complete the day, then that is an emotional energy and a psychological boost. The energy was always there, one impedes it with poor attitude and self pity. Why should you "need" someone to tell you that what you are doing is worthwhile? Is It? Why can't you know whether what you are doing is good or not. And if it isn't, why are you doing it? Whole different thing.

Bamboo_ i did succinctly describe power generation as I use it in context to the Kungfu I do.

To start talking about immediate use of the earth energies to assist in a combat situation is nonsense in my opinion and best left to those great animators. GOtta take the Randi stance on that idea.

power generation is derived only from physical strength, correct alignment, proper mechanics and your own will to correct these things to a point of optimal delivery.

Transformative energy through food, water, air, emotiuonal well being etc etc is not the same as Mass x acceleration = force

and accelerating that mass has a lot to do with how you set up the structure to do so.

push into the ground, root, turn the hips rapidly and loosely but not too loosely continue the drive up and out through your hand. that is more or less power generation. It is supported by a few other purely physical, very human practices.

cheers

[Vash]

Methinks this thread should be renamed "striking process" as opposed to "power generation." This would be more for Kung Lek's introduction into the discussion of "what type of motion does your fighting style utilize for striking" and his extradition from "forms of energy; chemicals and beyond." :p

[count]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
are you telling me that you think you can draw energy up from inside the ground and channel it through you and out of you and intro someone else in such a fashion as to affect them negatively?

Not even close, I didn't say anything of the kind.

[David Jamieson]

:D

yes...

vash, trust me, I get it, i was just reading some things here that in my opinion were either misunderstandings or deliberate misinterpretations. Human form is human form. Of course we are connected to everything around us, but we are most definitely finite in our ability to mingle with the external to bring about cause and effect. Or power generation in the self. Can we behave in the fashion of a capacitor? Yes. Are we a capacitor? No.

count, the question was directed at b_leaf.

Guy's I'm not being accusational, I am just saying, it is better to describe these things in terms that are not so esoteric. As soon as people start going off and discussing concepts without providing some anecdotal material or analogy that is cultural relative, the huge misinterpretations begin.

This is a problem with traditions of one culture bridging into another culture. Such is the case with a thing like Kungfu and in our rush to understand, we miss out because we don't take the time to properly and correctly and assuredly interpret the lessons that come down to us. This is where we wind up with people talking about jings and jongs instead of putting it into the laymens terms that bring familiarity and this also brings continuance of the clouding of the mind in the people who would study.

anyway...

cheers

[crumble]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Driving off the back leg getting the entire structure and its weight going, adding the power of the upper back and shoulder in the swing plus the added speed of the bicep/tricep (forearm) and wrist.

Pretty much the same.

Power: A) back leg moves whole body, waist turns, spine straightens

Power Transfer: B) elbow and shoulder moves to create best structure to transfer body momentum into fist.

-c

p.s. I agree with Kung Lek in spirit, there is a limit to power. A heavy guy can be 40% efficient and have the power of a tiny tiny guy that is 100% efficient.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
:D

yes...

vash, trust me, I get it, i was just reading some things here that in my opinion were either misunderstandings or deliberate misinterpretations.

Ah, okay.


Guy's I'm not being accusational, I am just saying, it is better to describe these things in terms that are not so esoteric. As soon as people start going off and discussing concepts without providing some anecdotal material or analogy that is cultural relative, the huge misinterpretations begin.

This is a problem with traditions of one culture bridging into another culture.

cheers

Party on.

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

[ This is where we wind up with people talking about jings and jongs instead of putting it into the laymens terms that bring familiarity and this also brings continuance of the clouding of the mind in the people who would study [/B] stimulant gave a basic description. You can always learn chinese

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by stimulant
initially power is brute force

after lots of training its motion and chain of events (i.e. waist / hips to shourdr to elbow to fist etc)

advance level its relaxation, technique and qi

the hard part is keep your techniue when in a situation.

[Vash]

Originally posted by backbreaker
stimulant gave a basic description. You can always learn chinese

:rolleyes:

[count]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Only 1 problem with that, we are humans and not bows and arrows.

energy and power are not such different things.

to get energy, you eat and drink.


So the arrow shoots itself??

This ain't so esoteric. Borrowing is not cultural either.

The Bow and Arrow anology is relavant to borrowing power. The earth, I'm not so sure, but obviously most of you have never been in an earthquake. ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
You cannot get more energy than you already have.



sure you can. Take a good multi vitamin! :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

you cannot "take" energy from a tree any more than you can take it from the ground. unless you burn the tree to keep warm or plant food in the ground and eat it. The transferance that comes with a connectivity in a moment is too subtle in the bigger pic.


Sure you can. Ever watch Dragon Ball Z? Gokou has a technique called genki dama, which he uses to draw energy from the earth and focus it into one powerful attack...

[Vash]

Indeed. He stole it from Isshinryu.

:mad:

:D

[bamboo_ leaf]

(power generation is derived only from physical strength, correct alignment, proper mechanics and your own will to correct these things to a point of optimal delivery.)


Really I disagree with this statement, this is though direct experience. I thought by talking about waves I was trying to bring an understanding of some things that I felt to be more in line with what people can understand. For me the above description best illustrates a basic difference in thought between inner and outer schools of CMA.

my statements are based on my experience and not meant or said in a way that makes either method or understanding better. There just very different.

[SevenStar]

I thought it was a kenpo technique...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
(power generation is derived only from physical strength, correct alignment, proper mechanics and your own will to correct these things to a point of optimal delivery.)


Really I disagree with this statement, this is though direct experience. I thought by talking about waves I was trying to bring an understanding of some things that I felt to be more in line with what people can understand. The above description best illustrates a basic difference in thought between inner and outer schools of CMA.

my statements are based on my experience and not meant or said in a way that makes either method or understanding better. There just very different.

Why do you disagree?

[bamboo_ leaf]

With out going into a lot of detail my experience leads to other conclusions.

There are other models specifically in taiji that do not follow the one stated. This is my experience, one that I really do not care to share or debate about.

(When we say that different arts have different methods of power generation, what does that mean)

The post started out about different ways, it seems that for some different means only their way. Always strange one idea one way.

[SevenStar]

No debate. This is just an opportunity for sharing...it's a discussion forum, no? Please, share your view point.

[blooming lotus]

I may be wrong, but I think KL was just trying to keep it simple...at the end of the day you need a working body to harness the power that you may or may not draw elsewhere...

I figure that's where he's at there...? :cool:

[Golden Arms]

I like training hard, but the healing part 5uxx0RZ... Just a thought.

[Vash]

Indeed. Today is my 10-Month mark for being gimpy.

Soon, I shall be healed. And I shall train. And I'll be happy.

[rogue]

At what point in execution are various strikes at their most powerful?

For example Karate style punches seem to be most powerful at the point when the elbow is just past the body. Watched a TKD guy who was a very good technition in his punches, very good form, very good snap and power. With all of that when he went to break some pine all he got was the beautiful sound of knuckles hitting wood and the wood winning. From watching him try several more times I could tell all his power was used up by the time he got to the wood.

[blooming lotus]

like to hear what other people are saying , but I'm going with between impact and withdrawal ?

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000057-3.html


(Biological transmission of force (sheng1wu4li4) differs from a mechanical system (ji1jian4; parts, workings of a clock, cogs) where force at one end must result in an equal force being applied on the opposite end. The human body is different. It is possible for the opposing force created by the push of the feet against the ground to be completely absorbed (or used up), due to the complex transmission system of the tendons, bones and joints (fu4za2de ji1jian4, gu3ge2, guan1jie2 deng3 sheng1wu4li4 de chuan2di4 xi4tong3). This force thus disappears without a trace (li4 ke3neng2 wan2quan2 bei4 chuan2di4 xi4tong3 suo3 xi1shou1 (xiao1hao4), bian4de wu2ying3 wu2zong1.) This is because the transmission of biological force does not rely on rigid bodies (gang1ti3), but on the contraction of tendons and the rotation of joints.)

or as I would say barrowing the force of the earth."

this discussion illustrates what I was trying to say quite nicely.

[count]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000057-3.html


(Biological transmission of force (sheng1wu4li4) differs from a mechanical system (ji1jian4; parts, workings of a clock, cogs) where force at one end must result in an equal force being applied on the opposite end. The human body is different. It is possible for the opposing force created by the push of the feet against the ground to be completely absorbed (or used up), due to the complex transmission system of the tendons, bones and joints (fu4za2de ji1jian4, gu3ge2, guan1jie2 deng3 sheng1wu4li4 de chuan2di4 xi4tong3). This force thus disappears without a trace (li4 ke3neng2 wan2quan2 bei4 chuan2di4 xi4tong3 suo3 xi1shou1 (xiao1hao4), bian4de wu2ying3 wu2zong1.) This is because the transmission of biological force does not rely on rigid bodies (gang1ti3), but on the contraction of tendons and the rotation of joints.)

or as I would say barrowing the force of the earth."

this discussion illustrates what I was trying to say quite nicely.
I was going to say that. ;)

[blooming lotus]

I disagree. I hear that you're saying at its base, but as far I'm concerned, the concentrated force at point described earlier is where I feel most. ??? Where ever your feeling it though, is probably where it's sitting ;)

[blooming lotus]

I found this article today while doing a search on O-Mei. It refers to pevic diaphragm awareness and control (alah qigong ...Pls see pushing breath for example) as oppose to thoraco-abdominal utilisation (which is upper diaphragm breathing)...and got me thinking along the lines enertia. It is power and therefore energy we are talking about so there have to be more than just external influenences right? Isn't that what qigong is about? Controlling the energy we are in contact with? How is possible to dismiss that aspect? :confused: Are we now questioning the validity of qigong as well? Whether or not we aware of these energies and frequencies of in and output..they still exist.....there is energy in every animate and inmate object in this universe and as human beings we absorb and omit these energies. If you're not comfortable with the term "qi", call it kinetic energy and look at relationships regarding that. How it's built, controlled, manifested and manipulated. I call it science, you call esoterism ....????