Guys who annoy...

[Falcor]

This happened to me yesterday...

I was working out with a bunch of guys of varied background, but mostly JMA people (that's who showed up yesterday). I was one of the two CMA guys there. The workout itself was good, we learned a lot, the fellows were actually really cool, nice, etc, and we were all good at what we do and overall the evening was a good one. HOWEVER, after workout, we did the standard cool down, stretch, and shoot the breeze the discuss MA. Eventually the topic turned to one of swordsmanship and fencing, and how fencing as we know of today is derived from dueling swordsmanship of the Renaissance and beyond. That combat, battelfield sowrdsmanship is very different. That's all fine and good. But one of the guys started to comment how Japan is the only country that has really preserved the battelfield arts as they were, altho he did concede that most of Kendo and Iaijutsu are also from the dueling periods of Japan's history. OK, so far, it's fine, and I may even agree with some of his points. But then he says that he has seen Chinese swordsmanship, and the most of what survives today as CMA swordsmanship is also derived from dueling and "civilian" style of weaponwork, and that practically no battelfield sowrdsmanship survives in the CMA. Mind you, he's not disparaging CMA swordwork, casue he admits that its very good at what it does, but that he made such a broad overarching comment was annoying. Especially since he has never studied CMA. It wasn't enough to irk me to the point where I needed to retort or defend CMA, and perhaps maybe even a few years ago I would have, but now, my friend and I just looked at each other and rolled our eyes and said nothing. I'm finding that I get annoyed at these things more and more, but feel the need to retort back less and less the more years I train. Kind of a contradiction, but...well, there it is.

Useless topic, but thought I'd vent.

[red5angel]

what survives today as CMA swordsmanship is also derived from dueling and "civilian" style of weaponwork, and that practically no battelfield sowrdsmanship survives in the CMA.


Does he do MMA too? ;) Sound like a very similar argument I've heard about the practicality of CMA in the "real" world......also sounds like the same brand of ignorance.

[jun_erh]

the straight sword gets that rap sometimes. I actually prefer "civilian" straight sword to the shaolin, which to me seems better served by broadsword. pretty stupid arguement anyway considering no one has used a sword to defend themself since like 1780

[Vash]

Yeah, those JMA guys can be real know-it-all @$$holes.

Thank God there's some fine peeps like the OMA practitioners. :D

[Tiger_Yin]

hmmm i havent went into CMA warfare swordsmanship if memory serves correct. But for the fact that japan kept some styles traditional thats totaly true. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu was named national tresore of japan in the 1900's i think... not quite sure of the date but its one of the Bushido styles tha remains traditional to the era it was founded (1400's) It teaches all the same weapons it did back then some of wich became totaly obselete around say 1600 the edo period of japan when the katana we know today was pretty much finished. They teach battojutsu (iai) with the odachi wich is taller then most japanese men and require two persons to draw the sword :D pretty neat stuff.

Ill ive touched on CMA swords are the broad sword and some Jian :/ so i cant help u there :D and jun.. the japs used the sword till the late 1800's ;)

[jun_erh]

they have those retractable baton things at silky way, the store I go to here in Boston. Not to diss traditional MA but would be nice t have a weapn I could cnceivably use.

[Chinwoo-er]

Can somebody please define "swordsmanship" here ?

Because I can see where he is coming from if he was talking about the jian/gim only. Ok, I am going to stick my neck out here and say I would agree with him there. That weapon was mostly taken off the battlefield by the Han dynasty because it didn't have the hacking ability required for the cavalry. And it wasn't actually favored by the military ever since which in turn was favored a bit more by the commoners.

But the broadsowrd on the other hand is not. The broadsword was the weapon that went in to replace the straightsword so the cavalry could could ride right through the enemies, cutting them down along the way. It then were standard issue to everyone in the military. Most soldiers back then were often equiped with a broadsword as a secondary weapon next to either a bow or a spear (depending on which department you were in). The techniques were enhanced and developed for the next couple of thousand years in which leads the techniques we see today. I would say that most of the techniques we see in the broadsword today were not far from the techniques used by soldiers on the battlefield.

[jun_erh]

Maybe it's my own prejudice, but they have a straight sword video here, one of those shi something or other shaolin monks, and it sort of struck me as odd. The wudang/ tai chi straight sword seemed more logical.

[SevenStar]

Considering that they say the only hand to hand art that hasn't changed too much since the old days is hung gar, why is it so hard to believe that the sword methods changed? It makes a certain amount of sense. Take a warrior from say - the tokugawa era against someone who trained in the meiji era, and what they train was probably at least a little different.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by jun_erh
the straight sword gets that rap sometimes. I actually prefer "civilian" straight sword to the shaolin, which to me seems better served by broadsword. pretty stupid arguement anyway considering no one has used a sword to defend themself since like 1780 I saw pics on the History Channel from WWII where Chinese people living in remote villages were still carrying broad swords.

[Losttrak]

yeah mainly the Chinese officers had guns during that time. In America we have stories of cowboys and indians. In China they have tales of the Chinese swordsman fighting the Japanese. My sifu said the swordsman would hunt the Japanese at night and look for the white socks they wore. Hide on the ground and chop at the socks as they come by... lol