Mixing Kung Fu and grappling

[zen_celt]

I hope I'm not opening a can of worms with this one, but what KF style do you guys and girls think would flow best with grappling techniques from say BJJ or submission wrestling? In other words, what style would you recommend to a grappler that wants to round out their stand up techniques and vice versa?
-ZC

[Oso]

any as long as it's trained realistically against fully resisting partners.


can I get a patent on that statement?;)

[Oso]

missed it.

but, if it can allow it's practitioner's to, on average, do more damage then they recieve then why not?

but, I was mostly just being a smart ass:p

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's a thread going right now on the Wing Chun forum entitled:

CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING


I know this...because...well...I started it.

[TIger Hand]

White Eyebrow of course. Lot more aggressive and explosive than Wing Chun.

[stimulant]

mix with wing chun and tai qi, martial (as opposed to meditation) tai qi, if you can find a teacher who teaches it, also make sure it is long form.

wing-chun - great for quick skills, tai qi, great for not being grappled if you ever get good at it.

:)

[TIger Hand]

There are more Tae kwon Do practitioners than Wing Chun practitioners. Why? I guess cause everyone knows it is superior. :)

In fact i think Tae Bo has got the most practitioners. Must be the best! :D

LOL.....tae bo all the way now dude!

[David Jamieson]

grappling is not found in most styles of kungfu.

of course there is Chin Na (grabs , holds and releases) but this is nothing like what we see "grappling" as.

are their defense against wrestling attacks? yes.

I notice that there are a lot of schools that are making claim to ground fighting in their style, but they simply never and I mean NEVER train for that ground fighting.

You wanna roll, you gotta roll, it's that simple. You can't learn the techniques of Grappling by doing solo forms. Learning to grapple requires resisting opponents and sets of given techniques.

Don't get me wrong, with the correct training, solo forms serve a purpose in Kungfu training. I just don't think there is an effective grappling system in CMA outside of those styles that have incorporated it from the beginning, An example being Shuai Chiao.

For JMA, then of course, Judo and Jujitsu and mma is all drawn from those two in particular for the most part, with the occaisional more obscure art popping in here and there.

anyway, just saying. I'm sure that people must realize that in order to have a "complete" style, you have to, have to, have to be flexible in your methods and outlook. If you are rigid and stay in a single mindset, then it there that you shall remain.

Not saying grappling is better or worse, just sayin it's a reality that must be faced by those people who think they are all bad arse cause the can do a form or two or 15.

If you got nothing in the toolbox for when you are getting choked out, then simpoly tap and keep learnin.

I am not so certain that wing chun has any effective techniques for grappling in its traditional forms. I means besides trying to hit the guy who is trying to maul you. BUt that can be said of any style.

cheers

p.s I am a kungfu guy, but I don't have any delusions about what I know and don't know.

[wiz cool c]

Just learn some grappling and incorporate it into your kung fu.

[mickey]

Hello zen_celt,

Wonderful question!! I have long seen an incongruity between the current grappling arts and traditional martial arts because the former looks to "submit" the person; the latter looks to take the person to the morgue in minimal time. If you are looking to develop for mma competition, I would recommend boxing, to be followed by kickboxing. If you are looking for the streetfighter edge I would suggest you take the following disciplines in exact order:

1- Western Boxing

2- Thai Boxing

3- Praying Mantis or any other serious style that does not require major modifications to be effective.

I suggest this order because steps 1 and 2 give you a great foundation in conditioning it will accelerate you ability to use traditional Chinese martial arts techniques in REAL TIME. You will be able to go through your forms at a level that would normally take years (that is, if you are coordinated to begin with). If I had it to do again, steps 1 and 2 would be absolutely necessary.

mickey

[backbreaker]

I think that Taijiquan would be good because there is a large emphasis on grappling techniques like shuai jiao and qin na( and countering and escaping, or actually reversing) . Also I agree that cross training can help you progress more quickly in your original style compared to someone with no cross training. ( In TMA anyways. And I've heard rumors that in bagua traditionally they only taught people who were already good in another style)

[Chang Style Novice]

My answer to the original question is: it's academic. You are where you are and know what you know. This is the basis you have to work from, and nothing will change that. If you want to add grappling to your kf, just go ahead and get started. If you want to add kf to your grappling, just go ahead and get started.

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by stimulant
mix with wing chun and tai qi, martial (as opposed to meditation) tai qi,

:)

What exactly is tai qi? Is that just a different spelling for tai chi chuan or Taijiquan

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
My answer to the original question is: it's academic. You are where you are and know what you know. This is the basis you have to work from, and nothing will change that. If you want to add grappling to your kf, just go ahead and get started. If you want to add kf to your grappling, just go ahead and get started.


Bingo.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mickey
Hello zen_celt,

Wonderful question!! I have long seen an incongruity between the current grappling arts and traditional martial arts because the former looks to "submit" the person; the latter looks to take the person to the morgue in minimal time.

Submissions are breaks and chokes -and they only take seconds to do...

If you are looking to develop for mma competition, I would recommend boxing, to be followed by kickboxing. If you are looking for the streetfighter edge I would suggest you take the following disciplines in exact order:

1- Western Boxing

2- Thai Boxing

3- Praying Mantis or any other serious style that does not require major modifications to be effective.

LOL @ The notion of taking certain arts in a certain order to get a "streetfighter's edge" and ROFLMAO @ the notion of a CMA reccomending sport styles in order to become more effective at their CMA style faster...

This is why CMA gets so much sh!t from people. If it's gonna be effective, it's gonna be effective. Period. If the process is slow, change the process.

How similar are the priciples of thai boxing and PM? If they are different, then that previous training may hinder your progress in PM, as you will have to unlearn stuff...

I suggest this order because steps 1 and 2 give you a great foundation in conditioning

definitely.

it will accelerate you ability to use traditional Chinese martial arts techniques in REAL TIME.

Why can't the art itself do this?

[mickey]

zen_celt,

Steps 1 and 2 were about the need to develop really good timing and conditioning. Yes, there are a few styles that neglect this. I suggested this because words do not offer a picture of your ability. I only see your words. The road to really good and effective sparring can be a bit protracted for certain Chinese styles. Then you have to contend with the culture of the school. Some may start you at fighting early on; some may wait MUCH longer before they allow you to spar. The suggestions that were offered were to put you in a position to fare well REGARDLESS of what kind of school that you joined. Once you have the reaction skills, timing and conditioning you are way ahead. I seriously thought about your inquiry before responding. If you are good at handling things right now, jump right into the style of your choice.

Enjoy the time,

mickey

p.s. what is roflmao?

[mickey]

p.p.s. I know that Chinese martial arts are very effective!

mickey

[mickey]

zen_celt,

I forgot to respond to your question "why can't the art do this?"

The arts can. Unfortunately, it is very hard to get this from a commercial school. Now days the class is over before before a real sweat can take place. This has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the art as it has to do with changing times and, yes, economics. When I jioned my first kung fu school. I would get there at 9:00 in the morning and leave at 6:00 in the evening. The kwoon was big enough to allow for people to train outside of the classes that were taking place. It was FUN!!! Bag work, conditioning, sparring (nice, bang up sparring!!) : whatever you wanted to do. I went to see that school recently and it is not that way anymore. Times have changed. My suggestions weren't inspired from whim. I have been through it. If you can hook up with some private instruction where you are not confined and you are allowed to grow, GO FOR IT and don't let go.

What you had vented toward me about Chinese martial arts is what I had hoped to help you avoid. I get the feeling you have had disappointments.

Ultmately, the decision is yours as to what you want to do. I hope you are successful regardless of what road you may take.

mickey

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mickey

Steps 1 and 2 were about the need to develop really good timing and conditioning. Yes, there are a few styles that neglect this... The road to really good and effective sparring can be a bit protracted for certain Chinese styles.

Why is that though?


Then you have to contend with the culture of the school. Some may start you at fighting early on; some may wait MUCH longer before they allow you to spar. The suggestions that were offered were to put you in a position to fare well REGARDLESS of what kind of school that you joined.[/b]

I can see that point - it's a valid one. I just don't really see the need to hold off for so long on sparring, or not allow students to spar at all.

p.s. what is roflmao?


rolling onthe floor laughing my ass off. It kinda struck me as funny reading that a sport style should be trained before a CMA in order to become proficient faster. While I do find it funny, I see where you are coming from. IMO though, that displays a flaw in the training methodologies of some CMA.

[mickey]

Hi zen_celt,

The reason why the road to sparring is so protracted in some Chinese styles is beyond me. Some schools exist for the sole purpose of keeping something intact for the next generation. Testing for contemporary validity is not popular. That is pretty obvious in some of the threads of the Kung Fu forum. I did point out in another thread that the basic training aspects of the traditional Chinese martial arts need to be addressed. Nevertheless a perceptive eye will see great value in the techniques. There is a need for a template through which to apply them. some styles have them; some don't. Transmission is key here.

A look at 1&2

Boxing: Good intro to conditioning, apparatus work, upper body coordination/strength, reaction timing, explosive power. Development of punching ranges.

Thai Boxing: Great lower body strengthening/conditioning, learning how to go from long range(feet) to close range (elbows/head) flexibly.

If you can find a better way, use it.

mickey