Thoughts on the teaching of applications

[batesy]

What do people feel about the teaching of applications to students at a fairly early stage? I have two teachers, one mainly in Xing yi, the other in Chen taiji. The Xing yi teacher likes us to apply and test out what we've learned, seeing how things work against different attacks and attackers. The Chen teacher is of the opinion that if I tell you one possible application this is all you'll think about when doing the form, instead of concentrating upon body mechanics, relaxation etc. Any thoughts?

[backbreaker]

I learned at least 4 applications for each chen move, including punches, elbows, kicks, qinna , shuai jiao , fa jin, and defenses and counters. I can't remember them all exactly anyways, and I think the moves build off of each other and contain elements of each other within

[Vash]

Like your Hsing I instructor's teaching style. I can understand where your Tai Chi instructor is coming from, too.

You need to understand what you're doing, but you must also know how to do it.

[batesy]

How soon would you guys recommend putting applications into teaching a beginner?

[boneset]

one of the biggest issues with teaching applications is, T'ai chi is an internal art if one cannot use the internal to do the move then doing the move is only an external expression is a particular move i.e. it becomes no different than karate or kungfu.

that said:

I am a strong believer in teaching the external applications of a move. It helps a student know how the external feeling feels. It is also fun sometimes repetitive form drills get boring this spices classes up, it also helps other students get to know each other.


I also believe teaching applications improves body mechanics because applications will not work well when body mechanics are not correct.

[batesy]

I'm with you on that one bonest. I don't think I really began to understand the importance of correct mechanics until I tested things out against a live opponent/partner. It's a lot more obvious how developed your peng is when some big fella is trying to wack you one.

[travelsbyknight]

In the old days, students used to be made to drill techniques/forms continuously with repetitions into the thousands before any application was taught. Teachers did this so that when the time came for the application the students would actually be able to pull off the movement correctly during the application instead of thinking they could do it.

I believe this to be the best way. I've seen people drill a technique a few times and then ask, "So what does this move do?" Shut up, drill and ask questions later. SAme with form. LEarn to do each movement correctly(a lot of things go into correctly and not just a perfect mimicing of your sifu) and then ask about application.

[Vash]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
In the old days, students used to be made to drill techniques/forms continuously with repetitions into the thousands before any application was taught. Teachers did this so that when the time came for the application the students would actually be able to pull off the movement correctly during the application instead of thinking they could do it.

I believe this to be the best way. I've seen people drill a technique a few times and then ask, "So what does this move do?" Shut up, drill and ask questions later. SAme with form. LEarn to do each movement correctly(a lot of things go into correctly and not just a perfect mimicing of your sifu) and then ask about application.

Who will be better prepared, the person who did the technique without application 1,000 times, or the person who did the technique with application against a resisting opponent 100 times?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

With my own students i usually demonstrate one or two applications with each movement.. from that perspective they sense the martial intent of the "dance".. Tui Shou drills and soft-practice begin after i see the student's awareness of rooting and correct posture alignment.. we don't really get into advanced Tui Shou (with Qinna) until the student demonstrates a working knowledge of the form and can transition smoothly without pauses.. then, it is a slow process of drills that increase in speed and intensity over time.. when the student can stay relaxed and focused at 60%-75% fighting speed.. we pair off and spar.. i enforce Taiji principles for the Taiji students in the sparring, even against my partner's Muay Thai and JKD students, and even if they cross-train..

I feel that while learning the forms the student should understand that there is martial intent in the design of these forms.. with an early awareness of this concept the forms have more meaning for the student.. There is also required reading (homework) that we discuss at our monthly Taiji Club meetings (open to all Taiji players in the area)..

Be well..

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Vash

Who will be better prepared, the person who did the technique without application 1,000 times, or the person who did the technique with application against a resisting opponent 100 times?

If I hear things like this, I seize to wonder why we haven't got many good IMA these days.

What is YOUR goal of studying IMA, to become good at IMA or simply to fight/defend yourself.

The majority of guys I see out there are NOT skilled in IMA, but rather do things external and call it/deceive themselves thinking it is internal.

Most people think because they have done a move once or twice internal they GOT it and can now advance to the next step, when in the meantime they only peeped through the key-hole and haven't even got their hand on the door-handle yet.

The goal of IMA is to do everything(or atleast as much as possible) internal, it is not something you choose at times or switch on/off at will.

This naturally takes time/effort.

The IMA got their own progress chart that has been prooven over time, naturally a few SKILLED people might be able to make changes/improvements onto that path.

Interestingly enough this very SAME subject came up in our last class and plenty of examples of the differences were given.

[Vash]

I can understand, though, the need for understanding a particular technique through repitition without a whole lot of resistance. The way I see it is this: if a body learns a technique in a particular way, and is allowed to repeat it 1,000 times, then when modification becomes necessary, it will be a bit easier, as the modification will feel like a modification. However, if one is given the technique, but then uses it against resistance, every time the technique is performed, it will instead feel akin to doing a new technique.

Okay, I have two mutually-exclusive views on a given subject. Doesn't that mean my head should explode?

[The Willow Sword]

Are you training to fight and be a soldier? or are you training your internal system to increase your level of awareness and receptivity to the environment around you? There is a difference you know, even though the warrior or soldier learns the latter.

The "Old way" of teaching in IMA is that you learn the moves first, get acclamated to them, after a few years you start to learn the techniques for fighting. Remember it is "INTERNAL", which stresses the importance of what i wrote above about "level of awareness" and "receptivity to the environment around you."
and of course learning about chi and your body's awareness through fighting AND healing.

Tai chi ba gua Hsing i. these are all internal arts that are designed in the Taoist way of thinking. Train one extreme then train the other,,balance the two extremes and then go from there.
but as a rule in "INTERNAL" you train the "INSIDE" FIRST.

it is the longer road to take,but in my opinion the more enriching road.

Peace,,,TWS

[jun_erh]

on the one hand, if you teach applications you may create a student who can't really be called a an internal martial artist because they don't feel the principles. On the other hand if you do the "years of" forms with no applications you may be just another shyster who is essentially teaching light qigong. the answer I think is to be rigorous in both parts. If you don't teach your students how to fight you aren't really a martial arts teacher. But if you don't teach them the principles, yu might as well just be teaching a generic self defense class.

[bamboo_ leaf]

One could be thought of as training an idea through movement, the other movement though an idea.

If the goal is to use your movement to overcome the opponent coupled with the intent to do it. teaching the movement and testing is one way as in something like xing yi.


If the goal is to use your opponents power and force (taiji) havening an idea in your mind tends to fix your body and mind, your no longer empty able to follow you have a shape.

Different opposite approaches to the same end.

everything is theroy until tested. ;)

[Vash]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
havening an idea in your mind tends to fix your body and mind, your no longer empty able to follow you have a shape.


That clarifies a lot. Cool.