is Shaolin fever dying?

[jun_erh]

Speaking for myself, when I first got into martial arts, I wanted to be a Shaolin Monk!!! Now I'm more interested in Muay Thai on the one hand and internal arts on the other. The Shaolin seemingly exploded. What happened? Anyone still have the shaolin ideal? Lost faith from all the political goings on? too many forms?

[Meat Shake]

I decided my previous training was crap, and decided I wanted to learn how to fight.
Now I take shuai chiao. Still kung fu, but no marketing tag attached.

[lkfmdc]

thanks to modern anti-biotics, we should be able to suppress Shaolin fever any time now :D

[red5angel]

I decided my previous training was crap, and decided I wanted to learn how to fight.


I've found this often has more to do with the martial artist then the martial art.......

[CaptinPickAxe]

...in this case it was the art...

[backbreaker]

I saw a video off of kazaa about shaolin monks. Their training was hardcore; they stood in a low horse stance even while eating meals. The old master monk would stand on one finger and sit meditating all night long rather than sleeping. Any normal non-martial artist would think the monks were the ****( or they're sellout geek nobodies and need to stfu). Also a long time ago I saw on the news the monks were on tour in Vancoouver and they went to the amusement park; they could easily win the biggest prize in any game and I thought those games were rigged! Someone needs to bring back the internal iron palm!

[rogue]

thanks to modern anti-biotics, we should be able to suppress Shaolin fever any time now This from a guy who has to regress to Kung Fu. Now what size did you want those orange robes in David?:p

[Meat Shake]

"I've found this often has more to do with the martial artist then the martial art....... "

Yup.... I just couldnt handle the light contact and forms.
Im just a puss...
:(

[backbreaker]

I've read on the internet that xinyi liuhe quan is the oldest xingyi style and has it's roots in shaolin, so I want to learn that style. I've read that chen style taijiquan is very similar to some shaolin forms and movements and chen village is very close to shaolin temple in the same province. Chen Taiji they say was put together by a retired general also

[red5angel]

I've heard all sorts of excuses meat shake but it still almost always falls on the artist.

maybe the school you visited wasn't a very good one but I know some guys around here who study shaolin kungfu and can kick some pretty hard core ass. I have a lot of respect for them, and they haven't had to fall back on another art to cover for holes in whatever it may be ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I saw a video off of kazaa about shaolin monks. Their training was hardcore; they stood in a low horse stance even while eating meals. The old master monk would stand on one finger and sit meditating all night long rather than sleeping. Any normal non-martial artist would think the monks were the ****( or they're sellout geek nobodies and need to stfu). Also a long time ago I saw on the news the monks were on tour in Vancoouver and they went to the amusement park; they could easily win the biggest prize in any game and I thought those games were rigged! Someone needs to bring back the internal iron palm!

but what does that have to do with fighting?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
I decided my previous training was crap, and decided I wanted to learn how to fight.


what led you to that conclusion?

[red5angel]

but what does that have to do with fighting?

yeah backbreaker?! Where would discipline, body control, a strong will, focus and patience ever come into fighting?!

[Meat Shake]

Did everyone forget that I was in shaolin-do or what?
I had a great teacher, but Im sorry SD guys, the material is... Well... Not good.


Some techniques can be used to fight, much of it however is the typical over romanticized fancy death lock attempts... And the "You dont need grappling, we can kick your face off" attitude drove me nuts.
And the classmates... Oh the classmates... A couple were good people, dont get me wrong, but the general attitude was that whoever can stretch the ****hest and finish their pushups first was the coolest.
It felt like a middleschool P.E. class.

Edit: I do not wish to offend any of the SD guys, you are good people. The style and the general attitude (At least here and from what Ive seen in austin), and the continual lies to the students made by masters is just unacceptable. I dont appreciate having outright lies told to my face, especially when Im paying for it.
Not to mention the lack of proper training methodology, and lack of correction of the aforementioned improper training. Almost everyone at the school here rushes through their poorly done push ups, punches far away from any sort of centerline, and stretches horribly wrong. None of this goes corrected. When asking about grappling, the same story about master mullins kicking some BJJ guy in the head and saying "That is SD ground fighting!" is told.
Bah.
Crap.

[rogue]

The old master monk would stand on one finger and sit meditating all night long rather than sleeping. Whose finger did he stand on?:confused: Hell I've stayed up all night long drinking at nudie bars, does that make me a monk?

[jun_erh]

The old master monk would stand on one finger and sit meditating all night long rather than sleeping.

abbot hai deng. he's in the movie "abbot hai deng f shaolin" and "dragons of the orient" and "this is shaolin kung fu" but it's the same footage. the one that's his name has the most of him.

When I took hung gar,it was very forms heavy. It was fun and a good respite from the other more combat oriented class I was taking. It was a cool atmosphere, just a big room and after class you could practice or watch videos. Lots f people working very hard at the forms of kung fu and also tai chi.

[Meat Shake]

"stand on one finger and sit meditating"

Stand on one finger while you sit?
He must be a badass.

[Ray Pina]

"Where would discipline, body control, a strong will, focus and patience ever come into fighting?!"

Yes, all those things are part of a good fighter, but a surfer, gymnast and a wushu guy have them as well.

Forget about the style: how do you train it!?

No matter how great a technique seems (even in a line drill) it is useless unless you have tested it live against someone bigger than yourself. That's it.

Smaller, and it could have been your strenght ... you don't need technique to beat a weaker guy ... usually.

Again: Doesn't matter your style, who your teacher is or what your classmates have done. What have you done? And what are you currently doing to improve it? test, test, test, test (every martial artist should have 10oz gloves and head gear)

[Meat Shake]

"(every martial artist should have 10oz gloves and head gear)"

Or 4 oz. gloves and a mouthpiece.
;)

[jun_erh]

thanks to modern anti-biotics, we should be able to suppress Shaolin fever any time now


ladies and gentlemen Neeeeeeeeeilll Hamburgeerrrrrrrrrrrr!!!! (http://www.dragcity.com/bands/hamburger.html)

[backbreaker]

He'd stand on his own finger with his feet in the air resting lightly on a wall or something, he did it as meditation. The sitting meditation all night long was a different meditation. They said the old man was the last person to be able to do the one finger standing meditation before he died. They also did other things like having others hold them in the air horiziontally and ram their head into a sandbag like a battering ram. That would hurt your neck:eek:

[Ray Pina]

Ouch! I have those light gloves too, but when I'm wearing them it usually means **** is getting serious.

I was in a full-contact tournament (breaking after the clinch though) in Philly last March where it was open head gear and UFC-type gloves. It was pretty brutal. I got through with only a slightly swollen and slightly blackened eye. I lost to the guy (250) who won the thing and took home bronze.

I think everyone was pretty lucky to still have their teath after that. I don't know how they managed that with insurance. I think they were running it on the fly.

I try to limit those types of full on, pretty much bare knuckle bouts to one or two a year at the most. I need my brain for work and living and ****:)

If I ever do make it to a pro. level, than that's a different story. But for a $10 medal .... not really worth it.

[brothernumber9]

10oz gloves? that's like fighting with bag gloves. body shots must hurt a bit.

[Meat Shake]

"They also did other things like having others hold them in the air horiziontally and ram their head into a sandbag like a battering ram."

From casino "I want you to exit this man off the premesis(sp?) and open the door with his ****ing head."

[old jong]

Originally posted by jun_erh
Speaking for myself, when I first got into martial arts, I wanted to be a Shaolin Monk!!! Now I'm more interested in Muay Thai on the one hand and internal arts on the other. The Shaolin seemingly exploded. What happened? Anyone still have the shaolin ideal? Lost faith from all the political goings on? too many forms?

It probabely exploded in your interest ,that's all!...I wanted to be like Bruce Lee 30 years ago! Now kids want to be like Tito Ortiz or something. It is a lot better to be just yourself but it takes some insight first. Everybody find this simple truth as life goes on.;)

[Ray Pina]

It's really not that bad. You won't even notice during the fight, maybe while showering later. Head strikes! That's what counts. But even without gloves, who cares about body shots if the other guy is willing to lower his guard?

However, light armor chest guards are good too. They really don't limit mobility that much as long as you keep it stand up fighting. I'm all for tying a matress around oneself if they can pick up their training and do it safely.

Most importantly, spar with someone you trust who isn't a ****.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel


yeah backbreaker?! Where would discipline, body control, a strong will, focus and patience ever come into fighting?!

it's another efficiency issue. Those things are necessary in fighting, and in pretty much any sport you play. from a practicality standpoint though, being able to stand on one finger, holding a horse all day, etc. don't have a whole lot to do with combat.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist


Most importantly, spar with someone you trust who isn't a ****.

That's the truth. If you get a sparring partner you can go heavy contact without worrying about any intentional injuries occuring.

BTW, Meat Shake, no offense taken from your comments although my experiences are different. :)

[red5angel]

from a practicality standpoint though, being able to stand on one finger, holding a horse all day, etc. don't have a whole lot to do with combat.


Interesting.

[old jong]

Originally posted by SevenStar


being able to stand on one finger, holding a horse all day, etc. don't have a whole lot to do with combat.

Maybe not if you see it that way but....A guy able to do that can certainly bring some surprises!....Just maybe!...;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar


it's another efficiency issue. Those things are necessary in fighting, and in pretty much any sport you play. from a practicality standpoint though, being able to stand on one finger, holding a horse all day, etc. don't have a whole lot to do with combat.

So having a finger strong enough to take your whole body weight is not going to be advantageous for use in finger strikes? And good leg endurance is useless in combat?

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I saw a video off of kazaa about shaolin monks. Their training was hardcore; they stood in a low horse stance even while eating meals.

I think that video was done as propoganda(sp?) by the chinese government and not all of it is true. some things made up to make them look more hardcore. if you see the latest videos of shaolin they sit in normal chairs and at a table. I doubt they sitted in horse stance eating. the sitting all night meditating i would believe. i doubt any current monks are that devoted. form what i heard a lot of the young monks go there to learn kung fu so they can be in movies and such when they are older. correct me if im wrong

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by joedoe


So having a finger strong enough to take your whole body weight is not going to be advantageous for use in finger strikes? And good leg endurance is useless in combat?

If someone could hold a proper horse stance for one hour doesn't mean they could kick worth crap, but I wouldn't want to find out. So much more goes into positioning, alignment, timing, but I wouldn't question their power.

For example, we have this guy in class that has huge legs. He can't kick for crap in terms of timing and proper mechanics, but I was holding the shield while he was kicking and it felt like a mule was kicking the pad. I wouldn't want to catch one of his kicks in the ribs. I can only imagine how strong he would be if he got the mechanics and timing down too.

[backbreaker]

I'm not sure myself, and I wouldn't discount the possibiltity of the government taking the over the documentary for propaganda. The video did show a wushu school near the temple that had thousands of students, and the schools most famous graduate was Jet Li . You could see that Jet Li and the Wushu school kids' stuff was very different than what the monks did. ( Wushu with alot of running and then jumping , alot like gymnastics , compared to hours of stances, forms weapons, iron palm, and ridiculous body conditioning ) Also I agree that someone 220+ pound with correct alignment will have dangerous kicks

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


If someone could hold a proper horse stance for one hour doesn't mean they could kick worth crap, but I wouldn't want to find out. So much more goes into positioning, alignment, timing, but I wouldn't question their power.

For example, we have this guy in class that has huge legs. He can't kick for crap in terms of timing and proper mechanics, but I was holding the shield while he was kicking and it felt like a mule was kicking the pad. I wouldn't want to catch one of his kicks in the ribs. I can only imagine how strong he would be if he got the mechanics and timing down too.

Yes, but leg endurance is not necessarily for kicking. Boxers do not kick, but work hard on leg endurance because it is so important to have strong legs for the agility and manouverability. I would say that training horse stance is not to train power in the kick, rather to improve your root and build leg strength/endurance. The best way to train power in your kick funnily enough, is to kick :D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by joedoe


I would say that training horse stance is not to train power in the kick, rather to improve your root and build leg strength/endurance. The best way to train power in your kick funnily enough, is to kick :D

My point is that the horse stance will build strength, and someone who can hold it an hour or more has ureal leg strength. They may not be able to kick for sh!t, but I'd be afraid enough of their leg strenght to where I wouldn't want to test their kicks.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


My point is that the horse stance will build strength, and someone who can hold it an hour or more has ureal leg strength. They may not be able to kick for sh!t, but I'd be afraid enough of their leg strenght to where I wouldn't want to test their kicks.

Can't argue with that :)

[Royal Dragon]

My point is that the horse stance will build strength, and someone who can hold it an hour or more has ureal leg strength

Can't argue with that

Reply]
I can. Really, after you can hold it about 3 minutes it's all muscular endurance, not really strength anymore. I think all the running through forms in deep stances and jumping has more effect on strength because your muscles are moving full body weight (Polymetricish), from difficult positions. It's more progressive resistance, especially if your training evolves to include working with heavy weapons or wearing weighted vests, Iron rings, and what not.

Extended stance holding gives structure, balance, and to me, seems to help make it so your not tapping your wind so much.

[WanderingMonk]

I would just want to add, strong legs also make a stronger punch. Afterall, all punch is suppose to start at the foot.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


i doubt any current monks are that devoted. form what i heard a lot of the young monks go there to learn kung fu so they can be in movies and such when they are older. correct me if im wrong

That is the single most ignorant statement I have heard all day.... ...

this is getting to be so typical of narrow minded uninformed attitudes here that if I wasn't so undestanding, it'd be making me sick!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
My point is that the horse stance will build strength, and someone who can hold it an hour or more has ureal leg strength.

Why would you hold horse stance for strength when squatting and lunging will build more faster, be more fun to do, and not have the various significant weaknesses of the isometric approach?

In other words, I too would argue with that.

[MasterKiller]

Many stances used in Kung Fu fighting are low, which means you need a certain amount of endurance in your legs to hold those stances during a fight. Training your endurance over that amount just means you are that much more prepared; however, there is a point of over-kill. I really don't see the benefit of holding a stance for more than a few minutes before shifting to another position unless you are doing it for personal discipline and focus reasons.

[Christopher M]

In some styles, stances are low, you mean...

But still - why not escape the dangers of isometrics and get better, faster results with squats, lunges, etc?

[MasterKiller]

In some styles, stances are low, you mean... OK.


But still - why not escape the dangers of isometrics and get better, faster results with squats, lunges, etc? I do both.

[Christopher M]

Me too. I don't do stance training for leg muscle though - and I'd do my standing much differently if that was my goal, so this clarification helps me get more out of the standing.

[red5angel]

I really don't see the benefit of holding a stance for more than a few minutes before shifting to another position unless you are doing it for personal discipline and focus reasons.


I think you hit it on the head in the last part of that statement.




But still - why not escape the dangers of isometrics and get better, faster results with squats, lunges, etc?

Ah yes, because everyone knows doing isometrics is just an accident waiting to happen :rolleyes: My guess is one would do deep stances for building endurance ;) and maybe a few other things that masterkiller mentioned.

[Christopher M]

Isometrics have some well documented detriments. Standard resistance training has protocols for resistance as well as power, of course, so I don't see the benefit of horse stance in this regard.

[red5angel]

Isometrics have some well documented detriments. Standard resistance training has protocols for resistance as well as power, of course, so I don't see the benefit of horse stance in this regard.

I could probably find some pretty convincing documentation on why weight resistance training is bad for you as well. As apretty regular weight lifter and low stance user, I can tell you they both have their advantages.

[blooming lotus]

so what are you saying? The guys that created and perfected it over thousands of years are wrong..with your ...how long did say you'd been training?:rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

he's saying there are more efficient ways to train.

[blooming lotus]

for the style and objectives of this form?.....opposing the dudes who have perfected it since way back :rolleyes: well alrighty then ...in fact, I'm glad we all have his expertise..otherwise we might end up doing it the very same way they've been doing it for all that time...

cheers r5a, you saved us all

:rolleyes:

[Christopher M]

Who is the 'he' here? You guys gotta address your posts.

[Royal Dragon]

I think the point is being missed here. It's not about "Strength building" You only get a sizeable amount of raw strength development up to about the point where you can hold for the 3 minute mark (individual results may vary). After that, it's all muscular endurance, and perfecting the body structure needed to root and keep propper alignment during power generation.

Yes, you can get more strength too by holding weigths of some sort, like big vases, or jars and such, but posture holding is not really about strength development, it's about structure, and endurance needed specifically for that structure. It's very sport specific to the style being practiced.

If it was about strength, you wouldn't see all those insane Stone lock exerciseses and carying water jugs, and whatnot in traditional Kung Fu. Every one would just sit there in horse stance all the time doing little else. You really don't see that, even in schools where you are required to hold for an hour.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
for the style and objectives of this form?.....opposing the dudes who have perfected it since way back :rolleyes: well alrighty then ...in fact, I'm glad we all have his expertise..otherwise we might end up doing it the very same way they've been doing it for all that time...

cheers r5a, you saved us all

:rolleyes:

that's part of the problem. Things have changed since "way back" too many advances have been made. Also, chances are, most guys aren't training 1/5 th as hard as those guys were anyway...they had less distractions and most likely way more time. efficiency wasn't as big an issue.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
After that, it's all muscular endurance, and perfecting the body structure needed to root and keep propper alignment during power generation.

I agree with that.

it's about structure, and endurance needed specifically for that structure.

but why do you need so much endurance in that structure? That's the big question.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar


that's part of the problem. Things have changed since "way back" too many advances have been made. Also, chances are, most guys aren't training 1/5 th as hard as those guys were anyway...they had less distractions and most likely way more time. efficiency wasn't as big an issue.

You're right. Changes have been made, but whether or not they are advances in interpreative and debatable.

relating to endurance I think if we keep in mind the circumstances for which kungfu was developed, ther would really be no need to ask the question. Again, the purposes or objectives for alot people studying kungfu has definately changed and consequentially so must there training in accordance. It comes back to same concept of "modern" kungfu vs traditional.

[stimulant]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I've read on the internet that xinyi liuhe quan is the oldest xingyi style and has it's roots in shaolin, so I want to learn that style. I've read that chen style taijiquan is very similar to some shaolin forms and movements and chen village is very close to shaolin temple in the same province. Chen Taiji they say was put together by a retired general also

all xingi, tai qi and bagua has its roots in shaolin

[Liokault]

all xingi, tai qi and bagua has its roots in shaolin


Really?

[stimulant]

you can find xingyi, bagua, and tai qi techniques in shaolin styles that are older than all three of these internal styles.

[Royal Dragon]

but why do you need so much endurance in that structure? That's the big question.

Reply]
Simple, the more muscular endurance yo have, the less your taping your cardio endurance. The less you tap your cardio endurance, the longer you go before you run out of gass.

That, and when your tired, it's harder to maintain the structure needed for power generation. So the longer you can comfortably maintain that structure, the better your odds.

Cardio endurance, and muscular endurance are intrinsically linked. If you develop both, you have an edge over the guy who only really developed one.

Ever see an interview after the fight, and everyone agrees the guy who lost literally "Ran out of gass"and lost despite being stronger, faster, and more skilled?

[Chinwoo-er]

thanks to modern anti-biotics, we should be able to suppress Shaolin fever any time now

Oh come on, we all know that the fever is Shaolin's responce to the recent virus called or something like that. We can't kill off a fever. It is just a natural defence against viral invasions. As long as the common cold is around, the fever will always be here.

I say, let it rest and give it lots of water.

[SevenStar]

the more muscular endurance yo have, the less your taping your cardio endurance. The less you tap your cardio endurance, the longer you go before you run out of gass.

by that logic, holding horse stance will help me prepare for a marathon or a 12 round fight.

That, and when your tired, it's harder to maintain the structure needed for power generation. So the longer you can comfortably maintain that structure, the better your odds.

that part I agree with. But how long do you think that is? surely I don't to hold stances for any more than 5 mins...

Cardio endurance, and muscular endurance are intrinsically linked. If you develop both, you have an edge over the guy who only really developed one.

but you want endurance throughout a range of motion, as you are fighting, no? so shouldn't you be busting your arse doing moving stance training and footwork drills as opposed to static stance training?

[red5angel]

I think now that MMA and the grappling arts have brought the "truth" to the people (All Hail the Gracies) and proved that TMA doesn't work in the "real" world, that is when the world came into existance shortly after muy thai was introduced to the west, shaolin fever will indeed die down.

[SevenStar]

and the intro of the gracies and of MMA did what? caused an evolution in MA to occur. (refer to art preservation thread)

[red5angel]

or maybe they just reminded everyone of what they used to know?

[SevenStar]

nah. If my dead sigung knew it, but my sifu does not, then it's new to me. With the advent of the McKwoon and the students they churn out, how many of them do you think have such knowledge? In some cases you may be right, but in many you'd likely be wrong.

either way, it's evolution. even if the style once used such techniques, the current generation is students is evolving into what there style once was. that's a step forward for them, and hence an evolution.

[Songshan]

Originally posted by SevenStar
and the intro of the gracies and of MMA did what? caused an evolution in MA to occur. (refer to art preservation thread)

Yes they did, but so did the introduction of Shaolin Monks to the USA. An evolution is going on right now too....a very good one at that. All of the self proclaimed "shaolin" schools that are just using the name and have no actual lineage or links to Shaolin could be treading some deep water pretty soon.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by red5angel
I shaolin fever will indeed die down.

SHaolin will NEVER die!!!!!!!!!!!!!

actually there are great changes at shaolin at the moment that are gearing up to bring shaolin to back to the position it deserves. The abbot is at moment, if you haven't read recent e-zine articles, avocating to unesco for shaolin to be listed as a world heritage. once this order of protection is established, I'm fairly sure I read he plans to include shaolin in international competition...like the olympics....which will give shaolin a great raise in profile. Then we will kungfu the way it should be :D

Long live shaolin :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Songshan


Yes they did, but so did the introduction of Shaolin Monks to the USA. An evolution is going on right now too....a very good one at that.


I don't deny that.



All of the self proclaimed "shaolin" schools that are just using the name and have no actual lineage or links to Shaolin could be treading some deep water pretty soon.

Interesting. Why is that?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus


SHaolin will NEVER die!!!!!!!!!!!!!

actually there are great changes at shaolin at the moment that are gearing up to bring shaolin to back to the position it deserves. The abbot is at moment, if you haven't read recent e-zine articles, avocating to unesco for shaolin to be listed as a world heritage. once this order of protection is established, I'm fairly sure I read he plans to include shaolin in international competition...like the olympics....which will give shaolin a great raise in profile. Then we will kungfu the way it should be :D

Long live shaolin :p


will san shou/san da be included?

[Christopher M]

Wudang would choke out Shaolin.

[blooming lotus]

To be honest... I have no idea , but I'm eying off one of those belts myself, so I'll plugging my $0.02c for what it's worth.

I think regarding the not so legit schools, from whaat I can judge, it's become mighty hard to convince anyone with eyes or ears that what they're learning is really shaolin,,,then there's a bunch of patenting laws etc been looked at aswell so I don't know if that's going to make a differnce. More power to em though because it's still keeping awareness and teachings alive...even if only somewhat.....

[Songshan]

Originally posted by Songshan
All of the self proclaimed "shaolin" schools that are just using the name and have no actual lineage or links to Shaolin could be treading some deep water pretty soon.

posted by Seven star
Interesting. Why is that?



There are many MA schools out there that use the name Shaolin and present themselves as "traditional" Shaolin. Truth is all these years noone really knew if what was being taught at these various MA schools is Shaolin. You could be studying karate or another form of martial art but yet the school would present themselves as "Shaolin". Now that we have real martial monks from Shaolin passing on and teaching real traditional Shaolin kung fu we can now see the difference and learn to distinguish real Shaolin from some of the watered down mixed matched martial arts that is beign passed as Shaolin.

With the trademark of Shaolin being under way, hopefully it will force the so called "Shaolin" schools to change thier name or fold up. Of course the debate goes on and it is said what art has permission to use the name Shaolin. To me, any school that is not teaching traditional documented Shaolin forms, weapons, Qi gong and buddhism is not a Shaolin school. Once something has been altered, added, subtracted, etc. the form or art is no longer traditional. It's funny that there are "Shaolin schools" out there that have no clue who Ta mo is or have knowledge of the traditional forms like Dahong quan, Tong bei quan, etc.

I understand that most of us train and learn martial arts based on what's available to us and where we live. I am fortunate that I happen to live and train in a city where there are four monks from Shaolin and I learned about this after hours of discussion along with research. The biggest critics of the modern Shaolin are usually uninformed and jump on the "fake monk" or "wushu" band wagon.

[blooming lotus]

4?

who is the other one? I know of Shi Xing Hao ( and almost came to join you) , de shan, and I know there's another monk out that way but can't remember his name. Who else is there?