Can Shaolin monks fight?

[red5angel]

Those guys you see doing all the travelling and shows, do you think they can fight? Can they fight well? Is their training effective?

[old jong]

The same as "Can the seals performing in the circus hunt for fish?..."

Some maybe...Some others could be too lasy! ;)

[Fu-Pow]

red5angel-

You are either a really dumb guy or a really good troll.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
red5angel-

You are either a really dumb guy or a really good troll.

I think that's a little harsh - it is a pretty valid question.

[Brad]

I'd say some. Depends on whom we're comparing them to, lol.

[yenhoi]

red5 is the most bestest troll ever.

I dont think they can fight, but they have good attributes.

They can and do drink. I drank with several of them last december at the Nugget here in Reno.

;)

[taijiquan_student]

Yeah, they're not monks.

[MasterKiller]

The guys from the shows are not real monks most of the time. They are students from the surrounding schools. There are thousands of students enrolled in the Denfeng schools, and the better ones are invited to join the traveling shows. We talk about this issue quite a bit in the Shaolin forum.

You might be surprised to learn that, according the Gene, some of the monks take TKD in order to compete.

[red5angel]

fu-Pow, its a serious question, now go learn to socialize properly, my suggestion is do it off the internet with real people. ;)


Yenhoi, you drank with them? Did you get a feeling for their actuall fighting ability?

Has anyone else come into contact with them on a personal level to confirm whether they can or cannot fight. I'm not going to assume because they don't study BJJ or Muy thai that they cannot fight ;)

[MasterKiller]

R5,
Search the Shaolin forum. People there have varying levels of experience with these students, including Gene. The issue of fighting has been discussed many times.

[Ray Pina]

Most of the "monks" aren't even monks: posing on top of tombs, ect.

We had a shoalin monk visit our school .... he through his prayer beads in the corner, then got a beat down from my teacher.

He expressed some crazy notion that before a fight you should sike yourself up by staring into the other's eyes and repeating to yourself, "I am not afraid. I am not afraid.":rolleyes:

Sounds like somebody's afraid to me:)

I would never label a whole group, but from what I have seen they have evolved away from the martial and towards the marketable. Every group has a few fighters though, even the local little league.

[red5angel]

alright guys, I know they aren't "real" monks for whatever that means, however there isn't another moniker that I am aware of that they go by so for now let's all just make the assumption that we're all on the same level here with who is and who is not a "real" monk.

E-fist, who was this guy? Why was he at your school? Is he one of the performers who does the travelling? What does beat down mean? I ask because it seems to me that while he may not be able to fight a little bit of acrobatic ability and the body control they obvisouly do have can go along way.

[Shaolinlueb]

you have to watch out though. some can shoot fireballs from their hands. but krillan is only human so he can't. :o :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

He was not a performing monk. Supposedly he was some big shot, the head of a team of somesort. A representative.

This is going to sound like a kung fu movie: But in times like this a group of Chinatown teachers come together and write what they think about the person's ability annonymously and then read it outloud.

My master volunteered to match with him and it was held in private at our school. I was not there, just his daughter and maybe another disciple.

The overall assetment: Fake monk, so/so technique.

We get visitors from time to time. My master is actually pretty well known in certain circles though a lot of the big names that respected him have passed on and he's actually very humble, doesn't open his mouth. (here's an article that mentions him in passing: http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_feilungfumun.html)

Of all the visitors he's told me about, the only one that he speaks favorably of is BK Frantzis, or Kuma as he calls him. Says his technique is pretty good and his Manderin better than his.

[red5angel]

ok, so if I understand correclty E-fist he isn't really what I am asking about in the first place since he appears to be mostly fake?

[Ray Pina]

Yes and no. He was not one of the monks that are on stage flipping and what not. He is supposedly a senior monk, the type that manages that sort of thing and a more burly, bigger type guy.

He actually had fighting techniques, not gymnastics, but from witnesses it was more of the chop suey type.

The fakeness was brought up, because what would you think of a priest that threw his crucifix and roseary beads in the corner before fighting ... and then forgot and left them there?

Speaking only for myself: when it comes to martial arts, high standards. White belts to green belts, they get applause for decent form. Brown belt and up, they better be sharp and clean and clear and their technique better zing. A representative monk from Shaolin? High expectations.

[red5angel]

ok, so he had learned to fight at some point but couldn't do it well?

[MasterKiller]

The fakeness was brought up, because what would you think of a priest that threw his crucifix and roseary beads in the corner before fighting ... and then forgot and left them there? I wouldn't put a Bodhi seed neckless (or any other bead) on the same level as rosary beads. They are used for counting prayers, sure, but they aren't "sacred," at least not in the same way. I wouldn't even put a Chan monk in the same category as a Catholic priest. Two very different traditions with very different standards.

Removing the beads and forgetting them doesn't disqualify his Chan training or make him any less Shaolin.

In fact, he was probably a wuseng anyway, a warrior monk, who isn't even required to take the same vows as the religious monks.

[mortal]

I know for a fact that Lipeng and Yan ming can definitaly fight. As a matter of fact that is probably an understatment. I have spent time with both and know them personally.
It seems to me Yan ming is more of a san shou kick boxing style.
Where as Lipeng has a more Vibrating fajing taiji flavor style. Also he can move so fast it looks like his whole body disappears and reappears again somewhere else.
Lipeng has demonstrated applications straight out of the form that are very practical for actual fighting.

Most "monks" you see with the performance groups only focus on taolu(forms). They are usually not from the old school.

[GeneChing]

One of the problem with Shaolin monks is that most people don't look past the bald heads and robes. FWIW, Beijing wushu team actually fielded a team a few years ago that wore bang tui (the lace up leggings - click here (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/shaolstylwar.html) to see) and shaved heads, probably trying to captilize on the success of recent shaolin tours.

There are actually many levels of monks. Most expect the fully indoctrinated Buddhist monks since that is the romantic idea of what monks should be. These monks have taken all their Buddhist vows of abstinence, so they don't drink or eat meat. We almost never see any of them on any tour. Next is the martial or warrior monks - wuseng - this is a special order of Shaolin monks who focus on preserving the martial legacy. Then we move to the non-monks. There are the laymen disciples. Hell I one of those. Can I fight? Well, as you'll all see in the next issue, Van Do kicked my ass and shes' a girl :p Seriously, if your judging Shaolin on my performance, you're waaaaaay off target. There are other disciples who were actually raised at Shaolin, Shawn Liu, former USAWKF Sanshou coach, is probably the most notable example here in the USA. Then there are the private school students. They just study there. Then there are those that claim some connection but don't study there at all. There have been a few "shaolin" tours that sport performers that aren't even from there, sort of like the previously mentioned Beijing tour, but there was also a Shandong Tour, and even a tour that did Europe from a German group. Much of the problem is that Shaolin is unregulated and although the current abbot is trying to gain control over the Shaolin name, it's not happening. Does this sully Shaolin's name? Not really. Perhaps somewhat in the martial arts community, on forum like here, but most martial artists, once they encounter a more authentic Songshan Shaolin practitioner, be it monk or not, realize that they have a lot of skill. For the most part, these shows are for the general public, so they like the acrobatics since it reads froms stage much better than true explosive fajing demos might, or even live free sparring. So you have to keep the context in mind.

Anyway, back to the question, can the fight? Yes. All of the actual monks have fighting skills. Most all of the warrior monks have fighting skills too, although some of the younger ones are more focused on performing wushu than traditional. As for the disciples, we're too busy looking for more girls like Van Do to beat up on us ;) .

yenhoi - Did you see Lotus & Sword? What did you think?

[yenhoi]

Last year I think it was called The Wheel Of Life. I dont remember this years name, I dunno, but the commercials said something about thailand and this one had chicks, Ill probably catch it this weekend (the last showing.)

When I drank with the "monks" they were in normal street cloths, leather jackets and ball caps. We didnt do any fighting.

:eek:

[red5angel]

Thanks for the info Gene! That's basically what I thought.


Yenhoi, so obvisouly these guys weren't monks?

[yenhoi]

Who says? :confused:

Monks define monks.

:eek:

[red5angel]

well, my first guess would be because of all the drinking they did?

[MasterKiller]

well, my first guess would be because of all the drinking they did? Shaolin has a special provision for monks to drink, granted by Emperor Li Shimin after they assisted him in 627 AD:

1. The Shaolin monastery was to be allowed to train five hundred fighting monks, to assist in defending the country.

2. The thirteen monks were all commended, and some promoted. Shan Hu was promoted to Abbot, Zhi Cao was made in charge of monastery affairs, Hui Chang was promoted to the position of Director of Worship, and Tan Zong was promoted to general. The remainder of the thirteen - Shan Hui, Ming Yue, Pu Sheng, Zhi Shou, Dao Guang, Zhi Xing, Man and Feng, all received citations for meritorious service.

3. The monastery was given one thousand mu (a mu being 0.0667 hectares for a total of 300 hectares) of land, one water powered grain roller and one hundred kasayas.

4. But more importantly, the emperor granted one other reward, but it came about in an indirect way. As the emperor had prepared a large feast which included wine, meat, onions, garlic, chives, and mustard, items which were contrary to a Buddhist's monks diet, he felt at a loss when several of the monks decided to not show up for the feast. He therefore proclaimed that from then on, the Shaolin Temple monks could eat meat and wine, along with the onions, garlic, chives and mustard.

That's how the story goes, anyway.

[GeneChing]

Wheel of Life was promoted by House of Blues and it was an officially sanctioned tour by the Abbot. It's a new troupe, set up by the abbot himself. I did an article about one of the members in our Jan Feb 2004 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=436) (which is already sold out!) titled Shaolin's Second Wave.

The new tour that just went through Reno was Lotus & Sword, promoted by Fechter, Hartmann & Wang. It was not sanctioned and it featured the nuns of Yongtai Nunnery in their first appearence outside of China. Previous FHW tours featured some of the best warrior monks ever to tour, including all of the monks who are currently residing in TX. Their tours preceded the abbacy of Venerable Shi Yongxin. I'm not sure where they are getting their warrior monks exactly, definately from the Shaolin area, but not from the temple proper.

[yenhoi]

Neat. I think they are at the Elderado for another week?

:confused:

[Liokault]

I nearly got a chance to find out if shaolin monks can fight or not late last year. We had a San Shou Uk event lined up with some chinese shaolin guys......till they got deported back to china in a really stupid way.

What I can say is that we have a Cistertion (sp) monk who fights great......do not mess with the cistertions. He wants to get into full contact events but is worried that if he starts getting black eyes the "brothers" will get angry and stop him training.

[GeneChing]

It ran at the El Dorado from Dec 24 to Jan 3 - they were in rehearsals that began on the Dec 16.

[yenhoi]

Oops.

Well, there IS a Bushidokan Temple fund raiser this weekend.

:eek:

[stimulant]

Can shaolin 'monks' fight???

Of course they can, everyone can fight.....but can they use their 'shaolin' for fighting. Well considering most dont do shaolin that would be a big fat NO!

Having said that....about 3 years ago I was out in London chinatown with my mate (a chin-woo, thai-boxing bloke) getting a bite (of touristy chinese food) to eat and suddenly a small coach pulled up and out jumped some shaolin 'monks' with a translator and some photographers came to take some pictures to publisize something or the other. anyway...a few people gathered around to watch them pose with flips and the odd high kick or two (yes of course I was one watching - wasnt that impressed). then this one guy starts walking toward one of the 'monks' all smiling and then throws two punches (one at head and one at body) at this one 'monk'. The punches had no intent or power, but were semi-fast. This 'monk' was suprised, but to his credit blocked using good almost tradtional (he used no stances) technique both punches. He then looked very angry at this smiling guy and the guys friend dragged him away. It was all rather funny.

Another time I was watching some shaolin 'monks' in kuala Lumpur Malaysia do show......I dont think I've ever seen such pance (crap for you non english out there) in all my life. It was all very nice and showy, but about as practical as using a wedge of cheese for a means of transport. Later on I saw the two top 'monks' from the team selling buddhist trincketts on the street and spoke to them. The no. 1 student had heard of my shifu (not unsual for TCM artists from china) and sang his prasies despite never meeting him (so polite!). We exchanged a few pleasantries and then he asked my age (I was 28 then). I asked him his age and he said 21, I asked again and he repeated that he was 21.....this guy looked like he was in his mid 30's....his shaolin 'kung-fu' is certainly not doing him much favours! He could flip and somersault really high.....but his power was pance. to make things worse he did a dou form with one of those tin foil whusu swords.

anyway....Real shaolin monks....yup they exist....they live with elvis!!

[phoenix-eye]

FWIW - I've done two 2 day seminars with Shi Yanzi of Shaolin Temple UK (whom I know Gene is familiar with). He is a fully ordained "monk" and was invited up to teach our school (Hung Gar) something a bit different.

Shi Yanzi put a heavy emphasis on practical fighting techniques extracted from Xiao Hong Quan and also for San Shou in both seminars. He was very impressive in terms of technique and also in terms of power. I believe he took part in many San Shou competitions in China and the techniques he taught were very effective and not wushu nonsense.

So, from my experience of one "monk" I would have to believe that he could actually fight. No way would I mess anyway!!

Cheers
Paul

[SevenStar]

Stimulant, do you think that YOU could take someone like shi yan ming?

[wall]

Having met quite a few Shaolin monks and "monks", the question is not 'can they fight' but rather 'who can fight'.

That is, in relation to Shaolin there are buddism-only monks, fully ordained warrior monks, semi-ordained monks, performance "monks", instructor "monks", wannabe "monks", laymen disciples, etc etc etc.

Obviously whilst the true warrior monks and some instructor "monks" indeed possess considerable fighting skills, the rest are a much bigger and varied group, with lots of people who cannot really fight having focused solely on performance and contemporary wushu.

W

[ShaolinTiger00]

There are other disciples who were actually raised at Shaolin, Shawn Liu, former USAWKF Sanshou coach, is probably the most notable example here in the USA.

Gene has picked up the searing hot caldron of correct and unblocked the temple doors.

Shawn can kick ass. He can't run an organization to save his life, but he's a good coach and strong fighter during his time.

[Dim Wit Mak]

I read somewhere that historically, Shaolin monks had to pass through 35 chambers where many nasty surprises awaited them and some didn't make it out alive. I believe many of them learned to fight quite well because their existance depended on it.

[stimulant]

most (if not all) of these 'monks' could kick my arse.....now if training was my full time job...it would be different, well at least I hope it would be!

[blooming lotus]

good point someone raised...the ones that can are the ones who more than likely wouldn''t ...go figure

[norther practitioner]

I read somewhere that historically, Shaolin monks had to pass through 35 chambers where many nasty surprises awaited them and some didn't make it out alive. I believe many of them learned to fight quite well because their existance depended on it.

You sure you didn't see it in a movie :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

Gene has picked up the searing hot caldron of correct and unblocked the temple doors. Man, if I ever had to do that, I'm sure I'd mess up and my brands would be crooked or something. ;)

The real problem is one that we constantly discuss on our Shaolin forum here and within Shaolin circles - how do you define a Shaolin monk? It's not a clear defination, especially with all the performance troupes. FWIW, I will say that I've met Shaolin performers who weren't great fighters. They were just wushu stunt guys. But then, they weren't monks either, they were just dressed like monks.

More FWIW, many Shaolin monks have dealt with challengers in the past. Challenges are more common in China then in the west.

[mortal]

What was the story and outcome of some of these matches? Besides the mathew polly story of course.

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


You sure you didn't see it in a movie :rolleyes:

Or the cover of a Wu Tang album?
:rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

I may have no idea what I'm talking about here, but aren't the 36 chambers like ... pyscological/ mind states/tests of character and understanding???

....Gene???

[SevenStar]

ttt

[Dim Wit Mak]

My understanding of the 35 chambers is that they were literal, and life and death "tests". I guess it would the equivalent of a well-earned black sash. The 36th chamber was considered the world that you would have to face and apply your skills to.

[GeneChing]

Well, nobody's going to tell me they fought a challenge match and lost....come on. It's China. It's all about face.

As for the 36 chambers, that was one of my all time favorite movies. :cool:

[blooming lotus]

evasive ha? well ok then ....:mad:

[Meat Shake]

"My understanding of the 35 chambers is that they were literal, and life and death "tests"."

My understanding of the "36 chambers" is that they were different rooms intended to focus on different aspects of training.

[MasterKiller]

[i]"My understanding of the 35 chambers is that they were literal, and life and death "tests"."Myth.


My understanding of the "36 chambers" is that they were different rooms intended to focus on different aspects of training. Probably closer to the truth.

[Dim Wit Mak]

Hey, maybe they had a Brazilian, grappler type lurking in one of them.

[GeneChing]

... I mean, he was the original Shaolin monk for us old school CMA peeps. Before Jet Li. Kwai Chang Caine doesn't even count. But 36 chambers was just a movie - a very great movie - but just a movie. If you're basing your knowledge of Shaolin on what you've seen in the movies, well, you should really watch into Shaolin Soccer. Stephen Chow rocks as a monk.

Seriously, while I've found evidence of different courtyards and halls for training (in fact, they exist now) I've never found anything to support an actual 36 chambers like in the movie. Were you really expecting to find that? Wait, wait, maybe we should start selling rice paper at www.MartialArtsMart.com. :p

[blooming lotus]

mm hmm...for real...I reallly did expect to find that :o :eek: :D :cool:

[GeneChing]

Although I hear the Hungary Shaolin Temple, under monk Shi Xinghong, has set up something very similar - full scale training courtyards. I've seen some photos. Looks intense.