Front kick (revisited) and Christopher Columbus

[Ray Pina]

Do you know how in some circles (high school students, not PHDs) you have to concede that yes, Christopher Columbus discovered America. This knowing full well – through study of history – that Leaf Erickson landed and settled Newfoundland (already North America) 1,000 years earlier.

Well, in the same way – history – I know China’s government ordered the collection of all weapons. Their reasoning? To build a super large statue (of Buddha I believe). Now, was this to improve the standards of martial arts? Remove all the weapons?

Now the powers that be are smart. They know if you say, “No more martial arts” it will only drive the people to pursue them more (the forbidden fruit is sweetest). So instead they worked to change them, standardize them into some less martial.

Every three years the regional champions would gather for a sort of who’s who or best of the best in the capital. Little by little form was favored; how high can you kick? How low can you twist? Better to pull your punch back ala reverse punch. Wax on, wax off blocking. This was during the Tung Dynasty.

Now for conspiracy theorists: Tong So Do developed here. Hung Gar, a southern style, was exported over sees. The word “Karate” and “Tung” are very similar. Some say it was changed to “empty hand” to give it a Japanese flavor and remove Chinese influence.

Anyway, the idea of taking away the weapons and pushing mediocre martial arts on the masses backfired. Look at the history of China’s borders: Ever shrinking and expanding (under Hun, Mongolian and Manchurian invasion).

However, royalty, the wealthy, who did they turn to for protection and to move valuables long distance: Taiji, Hsing-I and Ba Gua. Funny, none of these styles use the round-house kick as seen today. Yet here in America, it’s the other styles that have had so much influence and what everyone thinks of when thinking of “Kung Fu.” These are also the poor southerners who left China at first chance to build railroads.

So, when it comes to traditional, is it Columbus or Erickson? Depends with whom you’re speaking.

[Judge Pen]

*The sound of an axe grinding*







:D

[MasterKiller]

To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

[yenhoi]

0.9

<g>

:(

[lkfmdc]

this is SO FLAWED I don't know even where to begin...

I know, first off

CITE your REFERENCES for the collection of weapons and this mythical national competition, being as the FIRST government sponsored national competition was done by Chiang Kai-Shek in 1928.......

sorry, history professor in me

I'll be back for more

[Ray Pina]

Not looking to start a huge controversy over this, just putting out food for though.

Do a google search or hit the book store, you'll find references to this collection of arms. As for the tournaments, the gathering of martial artist (a huge part of Chinese culture) has always been. The founder of Ba Gua was discovered this way, before Shek and the new China. It probbaly won't be mentioned in government records because it was a different governement.

I've read about this in numerous different books. Just like I can't pull the books about Leaf Erickson out of thin air right now at work, I can't do the same for this. Believe me or not, makes no difference to me. Like I said, just wanted to put this out.

One of my sources however is my teacher, who was born and raised in China and has THREE PHDs from a top University there. In China he was an auronotical engineer, and history is one of his specialties ... not just Chinese.

Of course this is all history, the past. It's good to know, get an understanding say of why Southern Boxers technique and aproach varies from "internal" styles from the northern capital. But what's really important is the here and now. No matter where we or out styles have come from, I think martial arts is experiencing a revolution. A lot of us are waking up and, through combined efforts, we'll actually advance the arts further then they ever have been. MMA and UFC events, events like the one you run, all help to improve things. For that you have my respect and gratitude.

[yenhoi]

Do a google search or hit the book store, you'll find references

I've read about this in numerous different books.

You sound like the french.

Give it up.

Combined score: 0.5

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Suntzu]

is it Columbus or Erickson? the indians........ i mean natives.... :confused:

french joke are sooo 2003.... get with the times....

[red5angel]

yeah, I'd have to say North America was "discovered" by nomadic tribes across the bearing straight long before Erickson.

[Ray Pina]

Yes! Even better! And you're right. There were people in North America when Erickson got here (though maybe not in Newfoundland ... burr).


Sorry, I don't even get the French joke.

On another note, they say experience is the best teacher: I've never played with a good kung fu guy that has opened with ANY round house kick, let alone a high one.

Is it not said that a kick is a step that hits you, a kick that misses is a step. How does a head-high roundhouse fit into this?

Of course practice high and use low. Someone posted a picture of that woman Ba Gua teacher doing a high kick in response to me challenge of: find me a pic of a master doing a high roundhouse.

If you look close, that is no roundhouse, and actually a high-level kick. My teachers daughter can do that kick -- kick her own nose. In that is the point. Being able to kick that hight inside the distance of your hands. Kick? Yes! But only when supported by your hands. Otherwise you're dropping troops on the beach ala Saving Private Ryan. That is my real point.

I find most guys get thrown after they're kick has been captured.

[Chang Style Novice]

There were people in Newfoundland, when Leif Ericson got there, if Leif Ericson is to be believed.

When Leif Garrett arrived, however, he cleared the place out.

[lkfmdc]

Let's see, a "history" from your teacher who CLAIMS to have 3 Phd's but is a self described ENGINERR

vs.

My master's degree in Chinese history from George Washington University's Elliott School of International Affairs.

Seriously, you are way too guilable, whatever someone tells you you apparently just believe.

Again, I have an MA in Chinese history and taught the subject at NYU. There was no mass seizure of weapons. Maybe your "expert historian" is confusing the Okinawan seizure that happened after the Japanese acquired it.

Nor were there any "national tournaments", want a reference? The EMPERIAL EDICTS as published by the Beijing Social Sciences publishing house which has at least THREE separate edicts FORBIDDING public contests. Or read Esherwich's account on the Boxer Rebellion where he discusses the current social conditions before the rebellion

Do a search you will find it :D

I have to say, I find your desperate attempt to paint the internal arts, ie YOUR arts as the only "legit" arts pretty stupid, childish and beneath someone attempting to be a teacher.

Seven Star Mantis is a very legit traditional Northern martial arts and it's "baai myuhn teui" is a round kick. Sorry you lose the argumnet

So is Pek Gwa, another well respected and legit Northern martial art with round kicks, that's strike #2

Your comments about Tang Soo Do (refer to CORRECT spelling) is so funny I would think you are 13 years old if I didn't know better.

Tang Soo Do was first established as the Moo Duk Kwan by Mr Hwang Kee in Seoul, Korea in 1945. Hwang Kee combined elements of existing Korean martial arts (one being Tae Kyon, and boy are we going to have fun with Tae Kyon in a minute) with JAPANESE martial art, most notably SHOTOKAN

There is indisputable histrical evidence that the Japanese introduced Shotokan to the Korean peninsula during their occupation. Shotokan's basic forms/kata are the Heian/Pinan?Pyong Ahn (Korean).

If you are looking for any "real" martial art in these sets, remember that they were created in Okinawa for the express purpose of teaching SCHOOL CHILDREN. Again, your "history" is very flawed while mine is very exact.

Heian are designed to be very simple and not have much in them. They are designed for kids, or for dumb Japanese :D Funakoshi was Okinawan after all and didn't think much of his Japanese students...

Thus, arguing about the content of Heian forms is POINTLESS

You want to argue about Chinese influence on Okinawan and ultimately Japanese and Korean martial arts you have to talk about Ko-No-Kata like Saifa, Seuichin, Naianchi, etc

But then of course your argument about only front kicks being there would be MOOT, those sets have all sorts of kicks

Now let's talk about round kick in KOREAN martial arts, as everyone know, it is there a LOT. It comes from Tae Kyon, an ancient Korean kicking art which thankfully survived in Northern Korea and small villages. The current Korean Tae Kyon Association in Korea now has about 3 and 1/2 million students.

According to the Korean Tae Kyon Association, based upon the historical documents it has, the round kick comes from

drum roll please


anticipating?

CHINA....

So what were you trying to say again? I forget with all the references and corrections I had to make

[Ray Pina]

http://www.valentinkarate.com/history.htm

Just read the first graph of that. I'm at work and don't have time to check all your claims. This was found from doing a simple "Tang Soo Doo, History" check on yahoo. Notice what it says about Tang Dynasy.

As a history prof. you should know there is always more than one view on any given aspect of history. The Japanese, Chinese and American view on the Japanese occupation of China couldn't be more different. As far as Japan is concerned, they helped plant roses there. What beheadings.

Very often history is perpetrated by:

Teacher: "What year did Columbus discover America."

Student: "Columbus discovered America in 1452."

Student goes on to answer a little more than half of all the questions asked him correctly (60%) and becomes a teacher and asks his students," What year did Columbus discover America."

When is Erickson mentioned?

[MasterKiller]

1492

[Vash]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

*I wish we could post picks so I could more thoroughly illustrate the :eek: face*

[quote]Originally Posted by EvolutionFist
The word “Karate” and “Tung” are very similar. Some say it was changed to “empty hand” to give it a Japanese flavor and remove Chinese influence.

This is the only thing I'm gonna tackle, as lkfmdc round-kicked the correct on the tip of the nose, which resulted in the correct's brain exploding in almost the same fashion as mine did.

Firstly (and pretty much everything-ly), that history, as presented by EFist, so completely gang-rapes ALL accounts of history, that I had to wash out my eyes. Now, on to the rant!

"Some say it [the character Tang, which has an alternate pronunciation of Kara] was changed to empty hand to give it a Japanese flavor and to remove Chinese influence."

Kinda, but not quite. Funakoshi wanted to be liked. His behavior while in Japan, and later with the Americans, was used to put himself in a good position. This included the changing of things to Japanese. Example, "Tang" (a Chinese dynasty) to "Kara" (empty). However, this spelling was used before Funakoshi's karate texts made it so popular.

Sweet goodness. I don't have any clue about your instructor's fighting/teaching ability or your own, but the history, well . . . Sweet goodness.

I just refer back to Ross's correct-kicking post.

I need to go wash myself again.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
http://www.valentinkarate.com/history.htm



I really can't believe you are this obtuse :confused:

Any idiot can, and frequently DOES, put stuff up on the internet

I guess I have to smack down the incorrect again

Among the many great lucks I've had in life, I studied Moo Duk Kwan under the late Pong Ki Kim in the 1980's. Master Kim was a DIRECT STUDENT of Hwang Kee and RAN the Moo Duk Kwan's southern district (like 19 schools) for him for like 10 years.

I can safetly say that what I wrote about Moo Duk Kwan is correct and the web page simply represents the worst in martial arts, over mystified boooollllll shhheeeeeettt that sadly people like you read uncritically and simply accept
:rolleyes:

So, <b>ONCE AGAIN</b> I have to point out how silly what you post is....

I notice you stay way clear of the Seven Star Manits and Pek Gwa information.....

[Water Dragon]

This board has to have the dumbest posters I have ever seen.

Everybody knows that Helio Gracie discovered America in 1936.

[lkfmdc]

actually, helio actually invented north america after he read about it in a judo book

(probably too obscure for KFO types to get)

[old jong]

I always thought that Helio taught his style to kimura who then taught it to Kano's gardener who then......................Up to Ralek!...;)

[old jong]

BTW
The Koreans invented martial arts 25,984,372 years ago.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, but Helio invented the Koreans.

[old jong]

:D
Royce would have choked them all if he had been born at the times!

[lkfmdc]

the only strange thing is that some people claim the Helio didn't really invent Royce :D

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
the only strange thing is that some people claim the Helio didn't really invent Royce :D

Why do you think Helio hates Kimura so much :eek:

[lkfmdc]

that was just plain WRONG :p

[Vash]

What is your art called? I wish to mock it in a song.

[rogue]

Funakoshi was Okinawan after all and didn't think much of his Japanese students... David, wondering where did you get that from?

EF, never, ever believe Korean history.

[backbreaker]

While IMA's don't excactly have round kicks like other styles they do have them and I'm pretty sure they have defences to them and take them into acount. I've seen applications using switching stepping that invole catchining the leg and even stomping down on the opponent when they go for a low sweeping roundhouse. I think defending roundhouse kicks is a major application for many of the forward front type kicks and jumping kicks, and stomping as well. Also using the knee and shin defensively with peng is important I think

[Vash]

Again, as was stated, Funakoshi wanted to be liked.

I think I'll get all controversial on this by saying, "go to watch 24 fighting chickens." (http://www.24fightingchickens.com)

There's your Shotokan/JMA covered.

[crumble]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I've never played with a good kung fu guy that has opened with ANY round house kick, let alone a high one.

There's a baby in the bath water, but the bath water is very dirty and needs to be thrown out right away!

True: it's dangerous to lead with a flanking maneuver, whether side stepping or hooking or roundhouse kick. A flanking maneuver works if it is a response to another's attack, but not to initiate an attack.

[Ray Pina]

Again, just putting out a different point of view on HISTORY. Did some quick google searches, found this on weapons collections and Tang influence on MA:

http://tse.dyndns.org/~sktse/dzhoutl.htm

http://www.san.beck.org/AB4-SEAsiaKoreaJapan.html

http://tse.dyndns.org/~sktse/yuan.htm

http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDHistory/02Beginnings.htm

Seems like the circular blocking familiar in karate and TKD was heavily influenced by this era.

BUT, why the personal attacks? Saying my teacher is a "self appointed engineer." You can't self appoint yourself to the building of jet airplanes. Sorry.

I respect your degree and that you are a professor. I really do. I considered getting a PHD in English/Lit for a while. I also have friends that are NYU grads. What year were you there?

I am not a historian! I am a martial artist. I put some info out to maybe raise an eyebrow or two. As for my style, no need to write songs about it. For those in NY I'm ALWAYS willing to play. I also travel quite a bit for work. I'll be in Vegas next week.

This is not a challenge. Just saying as martial artists disagreements over history we can go back and forth forever. Disagreements over technique: hell, we can solve that in the park this weekend easily. There's no arguing with getting kicked right in the head, or getting your leg captured and dumped.

I bow out of this discussion. As soon as they get personal, I don't want to lose my head. I long thought it was understood that most styles (admittedly) were influenced by this time period. I just don't know if they know that's a good thing.

[Water Dragon]

Crumble has just side stepped the correct and threw a roundhouse into the small of it's back.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
BUT, why the personal attacks? Saying my teacher is a "self appointed engineer." You can't self appoint yourself to the building of jet airplanes. Sorry.


Nothing "personal", just direct, the person CLAIMS to have three Phd's, I'd like to see some evidence because, frankly, I've seen Chinese LIE through their teeth about their credentials in their homeland. I know guys who are barely literate who claim to have been professors. I know, they assume we are all idiots, but some of us are not

I did say "self appointed" I self "self professed" look it up if you don't know what that means.

The short of it, buidling planes doesn't make you a history professor, so if he was an ENGINEER in China doesn't mean squat when it comes to the stories he tells and tries to pass off as history

Disagreements over history do not "go back and forth forever".

There are verifiable and accepted facts, then there is "martial arts history" which is often less than folk lore and mythology

[Ray Pina]

We can read two different books on the same subject -- discovery of North America, the Japanese occupation of China -- and they can tell two different stories .... how can either one be indesputable fact?

History is often changed. The ancient Egyptians, there's differences in 10s of thousands of years over the dates there. So who is right? I'm surprised to hear you say such a thing as "fact". It's an undending story still unfolding. (Anyway, what years did you teach at NYU? Maybe some of my friends actually studied under you.)

As for my teacher, you don't know ANYTHING about him. An educated man making such gross pre-judgments of an entire race ... and placing them onto a single man he's never met?

As for me: judge my history and call me a kook. But if you're going to call me "naive" and a 13-year-old and these other negative comments, at least meet up with me and see my technique. I'm not saying what I study is the best. What I'm saying is that I've filled the holes in the weaknesses I discovered studying some of these other styles. Now I continue to search for any holes that aren't apparent.

I want to hear stuff like: Hsing-I is open to "_____" or Ba GUa is fearful of the "_______". Make me think about it. That's all I'm doing. I'm saying I'm not fearful of the roundhouse kick. If that is a major weapon of someone here, maybe they should look into why!

That is the point: Not that I wrote 1452 instead of 1492 or whatever. Not that Joe Blow brought this to this style in 400AD. Who cares? It's all antique to me anyway. Here and now is what matters. Roundhouse kick is very powerful!


My master puts it like this: rockets, machine guns, hand guns, bayonettes..... they all have their place. But if you use the bayonette first, when they other guy is using rockets .... your dead.

I'm talking to guys that can kick very good. Can punch very good. We all have the what. I like talking about the HOW and WHEN.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
We can read two different books on the same subject -- discovery of North America, the Japanese occupation of China -- and they can tell two different stories .... how can either one be indesputable fact?

YAWN, I am really getting tired of this silliness

If there is not a single reputable book on Chinese history that mentions the mass seizure of weapons, who are we to believe? The accepted history books, backed by footnotes, citations and documents

or some "martial arts history" based upon what someone's teacher told them.

Answer SHOULD be pretty obvious.

Show me a reputable source for your two assertions, ie that weapons were seized in a mass movement during the TANG dynasty (big HINT, if you can't even spell a dynasty's name correctly, how good can your history be?) OR of these "national competitions" which no one has ever heard of?


Originally posted by EvolutionFist


As for my teacher, you don't know ANYTHING about him.



I may not know anything about his martial arts, but I know his so called "history" is a fantasy



Originally posted by EvolutionFist

But if you're going to call me "naive" and a 13-year-old and these other negative comments, at least meet up with me and see my technique.



Again, you may be the world's greatest bad ass fighter, it doesn't make anything that you have said here true.

You made a comment on ALL Chinese martial arts based upon extremely limited experience, that makes you naive

A lot of your comments indeed mimic a child, or a 13 year old. You apparently can't grasp the difference between verifiable, acceptable historical reference and boooolll ssshhhheeeeeettt put up on the internet

Let's just review;

1. you said that there are ONLY front kicks in Chinese martial arts. You gave as an example HUNG GA.

I pointed out a side kick and a cross kick/Jaat Teui in Hung Ga sets that you claimed to know....

I pointed out other kicks in a wide variety of other styles

I even pointed out round kicks in Seven Star Praying Mantis and Pek Gwa

You have not been able to even address these points, yet continue to try and argue

2. you have based an entire thread upon a ludicrous notion that "Tang Soo Do" represents the original Chinese martial arts from teh Tang dynasty

There is so much wrong with that entire idea I could go on for hours, but the summary would be

a) Tang Soo Do is simply based upon Shotokan karate, which is in turn a dumbed down version of Okinawan martial art

b) Furtheremore, even your assertion that it has no round kicks is incorrect

So, again, for simplicity's sake, what do you have to argue with?

I have pointed out a variety of kicks in a variety of Chinese martial arts

I have shown your "history" of Tang Soo Do to be incorrect

I have shown your analysis even of traditional Okinawan Ko-No-Kata to be incorrect

You have done nothing but dodge the issues and cite completely laughable sources

[lkfmdc]

more for you to chew on....

why does it seem to me that you start a new thread when confronted with things you can't account for? Perhaps it is just me?

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=27752&perpage=15&highlight=fear&pagenumber=1


Fuk Fu Kyuhn - Gwa Choih (back fist), Tung Choih (reverse punch) 3 times, turn around Deng Jeung (propping palm), step forward, Tai Jaang (upward elbow) Deng Jaang (propping elbow) Liu Yaam Jau (tiger claw to groing) Gwa Choih

Jump back, Kiuh Sau (bridge arm), then depending upon your lineage either a Tung Choih or Fu Jau into either another Liu Yaam Jau or hook hand (Ngau Sau) - THEN SIDE KICK

Lau Ga - Seung Jyu Geng Sau (double forearm blocks), Maahn Fu Deng Saan (double tiger claws at two levels), Nau Mah Got Jeung (cross step away with hook palm block), spin around and Ngau Sau Biu Jeung (hook hand and spear palm), then INVERSE SIDE KICK

It's been a while, about 18 years, but I still remember my sequences....

[Ray Pina]

Actually my argument was that "traditional" or original CMA had no round house kick AS PRACTICED TODAY.

My whole point is that those styles have taken on concepts that are wrong:

Wing Chun's fuk sau: why so nice to just cover? Same with Tan Sau. Why so nice to just open from the inside.

My understanding: hit the incoming blow: glancing off ontop (or missing) is fuk sau. Glacing off inside (or missing) is tan sau.

Looks the same. Completely different understanding. Why?

You keep bringing it back to "history", I keep trying to move it to martial (the reason I'm here in the first place.) I'm not interested in going online or the library right now.

Post the books you sourced and again, the years you taught at NYU, and I'll get back to you after Vegas if we still want to discuss the history of all this.

My dates might be wrong. I know the weapons were siezed, and I know the forms most Hung Gar guys are doing today is a far cry from what has and does work in combat. When was the last time you saw someone pull off a Butterly Palm in fighting? Who's gullible?I'm saying that sort of thing is bs.

MY entire point: why do a lot of guys do what they do? Where did it come from? What's its martial value?

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Actually my argument was that "traditional" or original CMA had no round house kick AS PRACTICED TODAY.


Unless you built a time machine and traveled back in time with a video camera, filmed the so called "original" styles and brought back the tape, you'd always be guessing at best....

We do know that the Seven Star Praying Mantis forms with the Baai Myuhn Teui, the roudn kick, existed at least 100 years ago.

The Pek Gwa form is probably a little "newer", if 80 years is "new"

But then again, Tae Kyon has been doing round kicks for over 200 years and say they learned them IN CHINA....

That's all a lot stronger evidence than anything you have presented


Originally posted by EvolutionFist


You keep bringing it back to "history", I keep trying to move it to martial (the reason I'm here in the first place.) I'm not interested in going online or the library right now.



No, actually, you were the one who posted the fairy tales and tried to build an argument based upon them. And so if you want us to take you seriously, be willing to back up your statements. That isn't unreasonable....


Originally posted by EvolutionFist


I know the forms most Hung Gar guys are doing today is a far cry from what has and does work in combat. When was the last time you saw someone pull off a Butterly Palm in fighting? Who's gullible?I'm saying that sort of thing is bs.



We've already well established that you are anything BUT a hung ga expert. I'd love you to tell Frank Yee, YC Wong, and company that Hung Ga doesn't work :rolleyes:

Maybe if you actually understood what Wu Dip Jeung's application WAS.... nah, never mind, not worth bothering

[Merryprankster]

Personally, my view of history is that the Holocaust never happened. It's a total fabrication. I'm just as right as anybody else on this because all viewpoints apparently have equal value.


gross pre-judgments of an entire race

Actually, Sifu Ross wasn't making gross pre-judgments. He was relaying his experience with many Chinese, who have inflated their credentials. Then, he was saying he'd like to see proof of your master's claims based on his experiences.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Actually, Sifu Ross wasn't making gross pre-judgments. He was relaying his experience with many Chinese, who have inflated their credentials. Then, he was saying he'd like to see proof of your master's claims based on his experiences.

Merryprankster just mounted the correct, he used a few punches to intimidate it and make it roll onto it's stomach, then he sunk in his hook and rear naked choked it until it gasped softly and went to sleep

[Merryprankster]

That wasn't why the correct gasped softly.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
That wasn't why the correct gasped softly.


eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww :(

[Vash]

The correct is such a *****. It also has a very deadly VD.

One which EvolutionFist has yet to contract.

By the by, EFist, would love to know the name of your style. I've got some good lyrics which would fit great over one of CPAs tracks.