Dear Apoweyn,

[red5angel]

hehe, sorry for bringing you down with my "just curious" thread last week man. I guess I just get sick of the egos propping themselves up with the internet....

to balance out the karma though, I was watching your clips of you fencing and fighting, your structure and body control are pretty kick ass. I'm sure there is room to improve but I only wish I had that sort of control. Watching your empty hand fighting I wondered if it carried over to your fencing and it certainly does!

[apoweyn]

Hey Red5Angel,

No apologies necessary mate. You're right. And I didn't really want to see it. Particularly not my own contributions to it. Obviously, I try to be a valuable contributor here. And I'd like to think that, generally, I am. But I'd be lying to myself if I said I haven't succumbed at all to exactly the sort of reactionary nonsense you were talking about. And it pains me to admit that.

It's been a long time since I've been really satisfied with my own thinking on martial arts. On the one hand, I do buy into a lot of the more idealistic notions of martial arts. On the other, I do believe in the necessity of critical thinking and experimentation.

Before this turns into whining about my own dissatisfaction, lemme head that off at the pass. Suffice it to say that I agree with you that the forum could use a fresh start. I hope that can happen without regard to stylistic considerations and that we can all learn to come at this again with a fresh set of eyes.

As for the fencing, thanks a lot. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. And looking forward to getting that same sense of control and energy back in my empty hand practice. I've got some work to do to get back to that point. Last week (when those videos were taken) was the first time that I felt... er, in sync with fencing. Like the technical demands of the style and my own capabilities were falling in line the way they should. It's a good feeling.

Anyway, no worries my friend. It wasn't your fault. It put me in a funk, but a necessary one as it turns out. Know what I mean?


Stuart

[red5angel]

no problem my friend. We all get sucked into it, I was once one of the biggest of them :) Frankly I never had you in mind. Without getting too touchy feely I think the two biggest contributors to my ways of thinking when it comes to martial arts are you, MP and Yenhoi. There are a couple of others who have been on here the last few years, some have gone, some still wander through that contribute some cool stuff. Some new people come through and have some great things as well. It's just the more I see and experience in the martial arts world, the more I have to wonder why the debates rage like they do. I still haven't found a solid connection from style/internal-external/TMA-mma = good martial artist. I think most martial artist will agree that one should have some well rounded experience and knowledge in all things martial to be good and well, rounded.

Now I just wish I could maintain structure like you can in the ring! Maybe I should take up some fencing to straighten it all out! :)

[apoweyn]

Without getting too touchy feely I think the two biggest contributors to my ways of thinking when it comes to martial arts are you, MP and Yenhoi.

Well, that means a lot. Thanks for saying as much.


Now I just wish I could maintain structure like you can in the ring! Maybe I should take up some fencing to straighten it all out!

I wouldn't dissuade ya.

I've been thinking a bit about that lately. In the fencing clips, I do a reasonable job of maintaining my structure. In the boxing clip with Merryprankster, not so much (to put it kindly).

The difference? Largely mental I think. In the boxing clip, the possibility of pain and injury are stronger. And the fatigue sets in much faster. Both lead to panic.

Panic isn't the right word. But I lost my sense of being attuned very quickly in the boxing ring. I was too tired to feel ready and alert. Too startled at getting hit to feel settled.

The good thing to come out of that, though, is that as horribly as Merryprankster mauled me, I'm fine. Granted he wasn't going full tilt. But it was a good reminder to get hammered and still feel fine afterward. If I can remember that I'll be okay, then I have a better shot at feeling settled and attuned. Or whatever two new-agey descriptors you feel like tossing in there.

[Oso]

The difference? Largely mental I think. In the boxing clip, the possibility of pain and injury are stronger. And the fatigue sets in much faster. Both lead to panic.

isn't there some natural reaction to revert to foetal (sp?) when panic or near panic take over? takes a lot of regular training to overcome that.

when I had the chance to spar w/ a boxer a little while back I discovered that over a year of not having a good sparring partner had let a flinch creep back in. ****ed me off.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Oso
isn't there some natural reaction to revert to foetal (sp?) when panic or near panic take over? takes a lot of regular training to overcome that.

Yeah. I take that as a strong argument for some heavy contact sparring. As far as I'm concerned, technical savvy is great. But if it all goes out the window the first time you get thumped, you're in a bad place.

Better to get over the gunshy with a little pounding here and there. If only so you can uncurl yourself from the fetal position, look around, realize you're fine, and move on.


when I had the chance to spar w/ a boxer a little while back I discovered that over a year of not having a good sparring partner had let a flinch creep back in. ****ed me off.

Happens. No question. Me? I overweave. Ideally, the guy's fist should be barely passing over your shoulder, past your head, whatever. Instead, I practically double over to avoid getting punched. Takes too long to recover position, wastes a lot of energy, and sets you up for some horrible counters (largely because I can't see them coming).

[red5angel]

Yeah. I take that as a strong argument for some heavy contact sparring. As far as I'm concerned, technical savvy is great. But if it all goes out the window the first time you get thumped, you're in a bad place.


that's why I think forms training is important. Forms, and form-like dirlling allows you to train your body to move and react in a very neat very clean way so that when things start to fall apart, you have ****her to fall!

[yenhoi]

I am coming to Mn at the end of march or beggining of april for a weekend, then again in august for like 2 weeks.

Ive found recently that video and mirrors are great training tools.

Dont be mean to taht fossil old jong, hes got good OLD intentions.

;)

:eek:

[yenhoi]

Did I read and post on that thread or did I miss a day or something?

:rolleyes:

Ive been spending time at the Geoff Thompson (http://www.geoffthompson.com/) forum. Good stuff there.

Cant wait for the comments feature to be added to ap's site. Adaharma or whatever will be a neat resource.

:eek:

[rogue]

It's been a long time since I've been really satisfied with my own thinking on martial arts. Join the club. I'm trying to figure out what's important to me in the martial arts.

[apoweyn]

In that case, I'll try and get a comments system in place sooner rather than later. I'd like people to be able to discuss what they see in the videos. Talk shop. If that's useful.

[red5angel]

I am coming to Mn at the end of march or beggining of april for a weekend, then again in august for like 2 weeks.

the I can assume we will be sparring, or atleast having a beer when you come?




Join the club. I'm trying to figure out what's important to me in the martial arts.

I know I am, but I think I am finally settling into a nice fuzzy warm place with the martial arts. I am being challenged daily and tested weekly to see if it all works and if I can make it work.

[Oso]

Ap: absolutely. I thought a lot about that between the first and second meeting with the guy and did much better. still couldn't hit the spry little bas tard, but at least I was looking AT him every time he hit me.:)

r5a, are you doing any two person forms? In the new stuff I'm studying there is a huge emphasis on the two person forms done fast, hard and with intent after you learn them. I dig it a lot. Still not sparring but a great bridge from solo forms work to sparring.

[yenhoi]

Beers at the very least.

In march/april, Im just coming to scope the place out, and catch a few classes with the mnkali group.

August is Rick Faye's Annual WISE Camp.

So.. I know where we can find some mat space ;)

:D

[red5angel]

cool, so your just coming up to hang out at the school for a few days or for the camp?

[red5angel]

r5a, are you doing any two person forms? In the new stuff I'm studying there is a huge emphasis on the two person forms done fast, hard and with intent after you learn them. I dig it a lot. Still not sparring but a great bridge from solo forms work to sparring.

Not exactly forms yet. Alot of sensitivity drills, however! - about two weeks ago a freind of mine who studies some shaolin long forms and I were talking and he was telling me about how serious his school was about learning to fight and all that. So after some freindly smack talk, we decided to meet and do some sparring and if he could beat me I would attend his school one day a week.
He beat me :)

So now I go once a week to his school to train with them and it's doing me alot of good on several levels. Mostly it is helping with the body control. They do some two person forms like that and I may be doing that soon.

[rogue]

He beat me How can that be, everybody knows that TMA don't work!:eek: :confused: :D

How'd he put the smack down on you Red?

[red5angel]

Well, he was faster then me for starters. Not a big thing in and of itself but he was also just much better then me on the whole. I still have a hard time with sweeps, even basic ones and he was very strong in sweeping so that combination didn't go over well for me.
Essentially after breaking it down with myself, his instructors and him, we decided these were my strong points -

Quick hands, lots of blocking, steady on my feet. While he could sweep me pretty easy, he had a hard time throwing me or knocking me down.

Weak points -

Slow foot work, kicks aren't strong enough ( I couldn't use a whole lot of my wingchun kicks), can't throw worth a ****.


All in all I would say more then anything else he was just plain better then I was. I've sparred now with three o ftheir students and all of them are phenomenal.

[Oso]

All in all I would say more then anything else he was just plain better then I was.

cool, dude. sounds like fun.

all in all, one person just simply being better than another, is what it comes down to. If enough people were able to say what you just said, then we could get past all this redundant arguing that's making KFM a stinkhole.

btw, and way ot of this thread:

ever seen these guys


http://freelancers.faire.net/

I can't find anything on them after 2002 or so.

[rogue]

All in all I would say more then anything else he was just plain better then I was. What Oso said. IMO what's making it worthwhile is the critical eye you're getting from them. He may always be better than you but it's good to learn why he beat you so you can adjust. New show idea, "Critical Eye for the Beatup Guy".

[Oso]

LOL at CEBG.

I agree that anylizing your performance is important. But, you can go as far wrong over-anylizing as under-anylizing.


Here's an idea for a fresh start thread "Basic Rules for the Martial Artist" Everyone contribute till we have a list of stuff everybody can agree are....oh, wait...what the hell am I thinking. TMA guys will say that something doesn't allow for the history/tradition of their art and the sport guys will say that something isn't realistic enough. my bad. nevermind.

[KC Elbows]

I think one might get a fresher start with a thread where everyone mentions a couple things they suck at. Gets the ego right out, and I suspect that more often than not, people will suck at similar things.

BTW Red, I blew up at you back during the early days of the war debates, my apologies. Poor Braden got the worst of my fury back then. It's a good thing he's got such a thick skin.:)

[Oso]

that's a better idea. and you hit the nail on the head for the root of the issue.

[KC Elbows]

Oso, are you saying the root is ego, or the war debates?

I personally think that the tone of this forum changed completely after all that. I know I didn't help. It's a thing of vast suckiness, because there's people on here that I think are great folk, but we've never since been able to shoot the sh1t the same because of that whole issue and how we argued it.

As for ego, that's a likely cause of both, but we had these same MA debates for years, so I don't think they're the root.

As for our theoretical topic, I suck at lifting throws, spending most of my time on the sort of throws where the opponent's structure gets broken down to the point where their own weight takes them down. I also suck at high kicks. Oh, and one side of my footwork is drastically worse than the other at trapping footwork. But I could still kick your momma's ass.:D

[KC Elbows]

That's a collective statement. I could kick all your momma's asses, with the possible exception of Apoweyn, because she's a gorilla and all. It's my realistic training methods. I train live against mommas. I can deal with the adrenaline dump.

[red5angel]

If enough people were able to say what you just said, then we could get past all this redundant arguing that's making KFM a stinkhole.


good point.

I have never seen those jousters, I never did any of their fairs. I oculd dig into it more if you want, I'm tight with our jousters here at MRF and I am sure they have crossed paths before, its a tight community.

KC - To be honest man, I don't remember it, I know tempers flare from time to time but I have a thick skn and I am ok with that. You've always been on my list of actual contributors, and having a passionate opinion certainly wouldn't **** me off in the long term. No worries bro.

My frustration isn't from the war debates that have raged, that's an understandably passionate argument so I bear no hard will, I just got sick of all the this is better then that arguments. I have seen no solid evidence yet of anything being better then anything else.

[yenhoi]

red5's trolling has improved greatly in the last year.

I mean his "approach."

:eek:

[red5angel]

LOL! remember yenhoi, your coming to my territory this summer so I would be nice to me if I were you ;)

[Merryprankster]

Red,

You can compensate for slow footwork by having a good sense of timing and developing great balance.

My footwork is not precisely fast, and never will be. I'm just not designed that way. The above two things have helped considerably.

Also, and this is just something to think about--if your footwork isn't the fastest, instead of blocking, you may want to concentrate on evasion and/or covering. This will leave you in a much better position to return fire IMO.

Course, that's just me.

KC elbows, I disagree that the tone of this place changed after the war debates. I for one, with the exception of only two individuals who are simply dogmatic, remember none of it. I think this place just goes in cycles. When I first got here it was all about style vs. style crap too.

[red5angel]

MP- I've actually got pretty good balance, that was one of the things they said they could appreciate, the timing needs a little work below the waist however. My hands are good, good enough for the most part anyway my leg work is just weak at the moment.


Also, and this is just something to think about--if your footwork isn't the fastest, instead of blocking, you may want to concentrate on evasion and/or covering.

I must be misunderstanding what you mean here. I block, because I can't evade :)

[rogue]

I must be misunderstanding what you mean here. I block, because I can't evade Don't know if this is what MP means but in karate blocking without moving in, out or to the side is a big no-no. Just blocking still leaves you standing there and still leaves him in front of you. Gets you hit.:)

[Oso]

KCE, yep, ego. Ego that makes TMA people talk the talk w/o having walked the walk and ego that doesn't allow sport fighters to just ignore them and walk on.

Sadly, it is a deep seated insecurity about themselves and what they are studying. I will lay the blame on a lot of TMA schools/systems that won't step out of their kwoon or proprietary tournaments and compare themselves to others by fighting. But, what insecurity is it that makes someone HAVE to say something about it? Why does it matter so much that some TMA guy says he's a badass but doesn't fight? Who gives a ****?

anyway....


r5a, thanks but I was just passing that on as I had mentioned a long time ago and just did run back accross a link to them.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
KC elbows, I disagree that the tone of this place changed after the war debates. I for one, with the exception of only two individuals who are simply dogmatic, remember none of it. I think this place just goes in cycles. When I first got here it was all about style vs. style crap too.

You were here before me, so I'll have to take your word on it. As for the war thing, it's probably subjective for me. I know there are people who stopped talking to me after that, and people I stopped talking to, which is unfortunate, but at least motivated me to try to make a priority on educating myself on important topics instead of arguing them, so I guess that good came of it.

Anyway, back to the topic. I find running to be about the best thing to indirectly train footwork, or even directly. When I run, and I probably look nutty when I'm doing this, but I will often speed up to a sprint when approaching something, a mailbox or light post, and my goal is to get as close to running straight into the object as possible. I don't try to pare my stepping to make it so that say my right foot lands at just the right space to push off and triangle in left- I just let whichever foot ends up being the one that lands at that distance be the push off, and then I triangle with that as a guide.

Years ago, I camped for two months at a piece of land in Missouri that was covered with locust thorn(for those unfamiliar with the joy of locust thorns, the thorns can run several inches long). Anyway, that was probably the best my footwork control, if not technique, ever was, because I'd run and constantly have to assess whether a path was safe or very very bad, and change at the moment I realized that. I'm pretty sure if I tried that now, I'd be in news of the stupid right quick. Fortunately, I was young and indestructible then.

Another of the martial things I'm lame at is I'm either very on or very off, I fluctuate too much in intensity.

[rogue]

When I run, and I probably look nutty when I'm doing this, but I will often speed up to a sprint when approaching something, a mailbox or light post, and my goal is to get as close to running straight into the object as possible. So the rumour that you had a red metal flag imbedded in your nutsack is true.:D

You've got mail!:p

[red5angel]

That's not a bad idea KC. I typically run at night anyway so it's dark, right now it's dark before I even leave work! Sometimes I'll work on running backwards or sideways as I am running and I am sort of a fixture in the neighborhood now for some of the wierd tricks I use during running (not to mention the whole shorts down around my ass and falling down incident).


Oso, aren't you in N. Carolina? I'm not sure but I think the guys who do our fair here in Minnesota have their camp in N. Carolina.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by rogue
So the rumour that you had a red metal flag imbedded in your nutsack is true.:D

You've got mail!:p

Someone sent me a package!


























































[insert awkward silence here]

[KC Elbows]

For the record, I have not fallen down or run into anything while doing that(purposefully trying to). I tend to run into things the rest of the time.

That whole thing about kung fu making you graceful has failed utterly in my case. I'm the stereotypical big guy smashing things by walking past them. My head kung consists entirely of walking through interior doorways and ignoring the top of the doorframe bashing my skull and/or being knocked senseless by low rafters. Guys who talk about knowing they can take a blow from their sparring experience know nothing. At least you're expecting a blow in sparring. Try sprinting through a midget's house. Then talk to me about tough.:D

Another thing in running is to push the speed envelope. Don't settle for a pace all the time if you're trying to make your footwork faster. That about sums up my knowledge of running in regards to footwork.

[Merryprankster]

Well, basic road work gives your legs more endurance, (localized muscular endurance) so it's not surprising your footwork got better from that alone.

Red, what I mean is that hand wise, you can work on dodging without moving terribly. Kickwise, you can learn to jam incoming kicks and counter or you can keep moving forward. Really putting forward pressure on a guy without letting up can significantly reduce their ability to fire out a kick with much power. None of these require especially fast feet.

They DO require some effort. Chasing some idiot around the ring so he can't get set to pop you one is tiring, and from time to time, you will get smacked. However, you're getting smacked on the outside so! Such is the curse of the inside fighter! But it has some real benefits--especially for somebody with better hands than his opponent (or better throws).

An old boxing adage is "Don't box a boxer." What that means, of course, is don't try to outslick the slick guy. Force him to fight with you by chasing him down. Don't let him stay on the outside where he's free to move around.

[red5angel]

Red, what I mean is that hand wise, you can work on dodging without moving terribly. Kickwise, you can learn to jam incoming kicks and counter or you can keep moving forward. Really putting forward pressure on a guy without letting up can significantly reduce their ability to fire out a kick with much power. None of these require especially fast feet.


Gotcha, makes sense. I generally try to keep forward pressure on my opponent since that idea sort of came to me early, I couldn't get around it so keeping them on the defensive helps. I also work on my jamming and have gotten fair at that, still need some work though.