Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut Question

[Askari Hodari]

Greetings. I've heard of Buk Sing's continuous Tsop Choy and I wanted to get a description of it. I'm also curious as to how similar it is to Wing Chun's continuous straight punch.

[CHAZ]

I think the main difference is that in Wing Chun the straight blast is aimied mainly for the face especially the nose, while the Buk Sing technique attacks different targets and area's i.e Throat, stomach, eyes etc one after the other giving the opponent a hard time blocking and trying to guess where the next one is aimed for.

[Askari Hodari]

Thanks Chaz.

Can you give me a description of the execution of the technique? For instance what stance transitions are used in the continuous tsop choy? Is it done only from a front stance? Or does the practitioner transition from a front to front stance in order to generate power? Also, when using the technique to strike to different targets does one still use the same weapon (i.e., a vertical fist)?

I know that these are a lot of technical questions but any info will be appreciated.

Askari Hodari

[CHAZ]

Choy Lee Fut has a wide range of stances, so when attacking with continuous Charp Choi's(Panther Fist) you tend to for example move from horse stance to bow and arrow stance to cat or kneeling stance and so on. It depends on the target.

There are three main variations of Charp Choi's in Choy Lee Fut, they are Ping Charp(Horizontal/Back of hand facing up) ideal target the throat and eyes, Yueng Charp(Thumb facing up) good targets sternum,solar plexus,ribs and groin and finaly you have Yum Charp(Thumb facing down) a kind of twisting Charp, good targets are the same as the Yueng version.

So when attacking with continious Charp Choi's you can use anyone of the above three in any order to any target. It is a great weapon to use once conditioned properly because of the small surface area of the striking point whuch does more piercing and internal damage and also because of its smaller shape it can slip thru small openings in your opponents guard.:)

[Arhat of Fury]

Chaz,
I had always thought that the ping chop was ideal for the ribs, as to seperate and crack ribs in a verticle motion and penetrate soft tissue. Whats your thoughts

[CLFNole]

I think what the question might be asking refers to the tau lau chop choy, which is seen in all branches of CLF but notably in buk sing.

It translates to stealing panther fist more or less and is two continous fast chop choy's done with the same hand usually yum chop then yeung chop or vice versa.

Peace.

P.S. Arhat actually yeung chop is often used on the ribs since the knuckles can slip in between the ribs. Some open the knuckles slightly in what is called geung gnar chop or ginger teeth panther fist.

[Arhat of Fury]

Interesting, I have never heard it applied that way.

I associate a rib shot as in a sinking pak chop= deflecting oncomin punch while sinking and delivering a ping chop to the ribs.
I can see how a tau lau chop would be effective shot to the ribs though, depending on how the opponent is lining up

[Askari Hodari]

This is really informative. Thanks.

[anton]

Originally posted by CLFNole
I think what the question might be asking refers to the tau lau chop choy

Yeah, that's what I assumed he was referring to as well... quite different to WC punches. the yeaung chap, yum chap version is good when your yum chap meets a downwards block/grab... gotta be quick though.

[CHAZ]

Another aspect I forgot to add which Dave Lacey of Buk Sing fame is very adept at is the flying Charp Choi. i.e Yum Charp followed by Ping Charp and then the flying Charp(a good suprising manover if used wisely)

[Askari Hodari]

When I read about the continuous Tsop Choy I had imagined that it was a stream of center line punches (like in Wing Chun)...I had not considered that it was in fact an adaptive sequence using Tsop Choy, Yum Tsop, Ping, etc. In fact I hadn't though of using Ping in this context.

What exactly is a "flying Charp Choi"?

[Arhat of Fury]

I am not at liberty to talk about My Sifu's curriculum, but I can say that flying charp choi is very effective and deceptive if used correctly.

[CLFNole]

CLF does not use continuous punches in a straighline fashion like wing chun. CLF is quite very and utilizes a variety of angles through its attacks.

I saw from your profile you study CLF and wing chun is Sifu Sam Ng your sifu?

Peace.

[Askari Hodari]

Greetings CLFNole. No I don't study with the Ng Family. However, I study CLF one of their former students.

[CLFNole]

Oh I see. I know Ng Sifu, he is a real nice guy. I also met Phil once in Texas but I know he is now in Hong Kong doing well in the movie business.

If you learn from one of his students than you probably know that he doesn't do buk sing CLF. Ng Sifu's sifu was Do Hon Chueng who was a student of Fong Yuk Shu. Fong Yuk Shu was a student of Chan Koon Bak who was the founder, Chan Hueng's son.

Peace.

[Askari Hodari]

Greetings CLFNole. Yeah our style if Hung Sing CLF. However because of my Wing Chun background the idea a continuous tsop choy was really interesting. I read about it on a Buk Sing Gwoon website and I've been wanting to get some more information about its application ever since.

Thanks again for the info.

[SifuX-HSK]

you commented that clf does not use straight line techniques?


can you explain why we don't? is it totally impossible for clf to go straight line? or is all clf circles and angles?

not biggie, just want to know your opinion on that.

thanks in advance,

f

[CLFNole]

I didn't say we don't use straighline attacks that would be ridiculuous. Yum Chop, Yeung Chop, Ping Chop, Cheung Ahn Choy & Fu Jow are just some of CLF's straightline attacks.

What I said was we don't use them in the same manner as wing chuns chain punches.

In my opinion straightline attacks are of vital importance in setting up the angular attacks like sow choy, cup choy, bien choy, etc...

Peace.

[nospam]

Coming from a Bak Hsing lineage, tsap choi is our primary weapon. It is our weapon of choice and a technique that requires diligent practise to understand and use effectively. But as with any 'tool', it generally is used only for specific needs or targets that are 'body' specific.

For instance, if I want to hit the face, I want as much surface area as possible, therefore I use a clenched fist. I will also use my fist vs tsap choi to the body such as with an upper cut motion as I want to hammer the ribs hard, not pierce. I'd rather use sau choi to the body, personally.

We train and emphasis soft tissue use of tsap choi. However, each kwoon will be a little different. Primary target is the throat. It can be effective in the 'weaker' rib areas such as the floating ribs (again I'd prefer a more smashing attack to the body) and the solar plexus area in the form of yueng tsap. The difficulty there is it represents a small target and precision striking. I usually do yum tsap followed by yueng tsap. Ping tsap is our staple and most frequently used form of the technique and is used in a driving very aggresive continuous attack - the further one progresses, the further it will last, by retreating you can get closer.


nospam.
:cool:

[Serpent]

I think there might be some confusion between what a charp choi and a pau choi are. A charp choi is a punch delivered with a vertical fist, usually to the mid section. The hand can be held in a regular clenched fist (fu choi) or in a panther fist (pau choi). The same can be said of, for example, a regular chung choi or any other any other punch.

Is this not what you guys have learned?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Serpent
I think there might be some confusion between what a charp choi and a pau choi are. A charp choi is a punch delivered with a vertical fist, usually to the mid section. The hand can be held in a regular clenched fist (fu choi) or in a panther fist (pau choi). The same can be said of, for example, a regular chung choi or any other any other punch.

Is this not what you guys have learned?

Chaap Chui literally means "stabbing" or "piercing" strike.

So I think traditionally it is done as a Paau Chui which has more of a "knife-like", stabbing hand formation.

The only time I ever practice my Chaap Chui as a Fu Chui is when I'm hitting someting really hard and heavy like a 100lb sand filled punching bag.

If you try to use the Paau Chui hand formation your hand will collapse inward or you'll break your fingers backward.

Our branch also uses the Paau Chui hand formation when we use the technique Cheong Ahn Chui (or Steal the Eyes.) This is a Paau Chui with the palm facing the ground. It is delivered from the hip upward and outward. I'm guessing this is what the Bak Sing guys are calling a Ping Chaap or "Level Stab."

I have seen the Chan Family perform this technique using a different hand formation. Something that looked like a "dragon fist" with the middle knuckle protruding out.

[CLFNole]

I remember Sifu referring to a straight punch as "jik choy". This would be what the Chan Family people call "fu choy". The terminology tends to vary from sifu to sifu as some terms likely from hung gar probably were mixed in.

Peace.

[Serpent]

Fu choi - traditional flat fist formation.

Pau choi - panther fist formation.

Charp choi - midsection punch with a vertical fist which can be a fu or pau choi.

Cherng Ngan Choi - punch from the hip to the eyes with a flat fist (palm down) which can be done with a fu or pau choi fist formation.

Chung choi - straight punch from the shoulder which can be done with a fu or pau fist formation.

Obviously there's a lot more variations, but this is what I know.

[k-no]

I think that the original question was regarding the Lee Wahn Charp Chui (sp?), I know it doesn't help much but I haven't much patience to type the amount of words it takes to describe the technique.

k

[nospam]

k-no..going back to the original post...you're right.

The way we use the continuous tsap choi is in a rush-attack. You can use any combination of tsap choi and in a variety of stances depending on what your opponent is doing. And due to dynamic-interaction, other strikes will be used in the same sequence.

It is my opinion the purist (Bah Hsing) player will predominately be seen to use tsap choi- reason being is it is stressed during practise. It is our tool of choice. It is our placard. And for anyone who has trained tsap choi..it's a no brainer.

It is apparent the names of techniques will vary per lineage, kwoon, teacher...etc.

This is a good thread.


nospam.
:cool:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow

Chaap Chui literally means "stabbing" or "piercing" strike.

So I think traditionally it is done as a Paau Chui which has more of a "knife-like", stabbing hand formation.

Sure, but the stabbing is referring to the motion, not the fist shape. Imagine holding a knife and stabbing straight with it. What position is your forearm and palm in? They face to the side ride? This is Chaap choi, not matter what configuration your fist is in.


The only time I ever practice my Chaap Chui as a Fu Chui is when I'm hitting someting really hard and heavy like a 100lb sand filled punching bag.

If you try to use the Paau Chui hand formation your hand will collapse inward or you'll break your fingers backward.

Brother, you really need to do more conditioning! I recommend pau choi fist pushups.


Our branch also uses the Paau Chui hand formation when we use the technique Cheong Ahn Chui (or Steal the Eyes.) This is a Paau Chui with the palm facing the ground. It is delivered from the hip upward and outward. I'm guessing this is what the Bak Sing guys are calling a Ping Chaap or "Level Stab."

Chern Ngan choi is indeed a rising punch from the hip to "steal the eyes. But again, you can use any fist formation with it.


I have seen the Chan Family perform this technique using a different hand formation. Something that looked like a "dragon fist" with the middle knuckle protruding out.
This was probably a ginger fist. A number of systems use it.