"Light Gung Fu" [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Chin Chung Cao

01-22-2004, 11:35 AM

Is anyone here familer with or know anyone who still practice's this form of Gung Fu? What are your thought's on it? Fairy tale or reality? It's my understanding that it's a dying or already has died art. One of the last people that I heard of that was supposed to be skilled in light gung fu was the late Jook Lum Si-Gung Lam Sang See. According to some he was able to "jump" from the 2nd and 3rd floor of building's and land unharmed. Like most stories there is usally some truth in there origin, but how much? I'm not a doctor but it would seem that the impact on the knee's would be tremendous. I've talked to some of Lum's student's who claim to have saw him do this and swear it's true. The late Si-jo Cua Kiam,founder of Ngo Cho Kun, was another who was supposedly skilled in light gung fu technique. One of the Sifu I trained with could jump from a stand still onto the top of a refrigerator, this I witnessed myself. Is it light Gung Fu, I dont know. By the way, anyone ever see the Eskimo Olympics? One of the event's is jumping onto a refrigerator, but from a short run. Some of the trainingg method's my Sifu was taught to develope this ability were interesting, though I can't say that I saw him do any of them. So, what are your thought's on the subject, negitive or positive?

joedoe

01-22-2004, 05:31 PM

My late sigung was supposed to have been able to jump onto the roof of a toolshed from a standing jump(this I did not witness), and my sifu (his son) was able to jump up and kick a lantern that was 12 feet off the ground (this I did witness).

count

01-22-2004, 05:57 PM

Jackie Chan ;)

fiercest tiger

01-22-2004, 05:57 PM

I know of a master that says he can levitate and taught one of his students to do it as well. He said the best he can do is 40 feet!

HMMM i have to see it to believe it!!

But some TKD korean and Hapkido can jump as high as 12 feet and break boards that i have seen.

Some training is using a weighted jacket and jumping in and out of a hole for years and digging the hole deeper as you get better till its over your head deep.

FT:cool:

Jook Lum

01-22-2004, 08:02 PM

Gin Foon Mark has said that Lum Sang could jump over Marks head from a stand still.

There is a book by David chow and Richard Spangler that
has a section about different Kungs and an overview of the
training it is called Kung Fu-History,philosophy and Technique.

If you want let me know your e-mail and I can write what
is written in the book about it. It involves filling a big urn
or pot with rocks or what ever to a certain weight and you
start walking around the rim of the big pot and after doing
it everyday you gradually begin to lessen the weight in the
pot over many years until you can walk around the rim of
a now empty pot. It also covers the previously mentioned
jumping Kung where you jump out of a hole that gets grad-
ually deeper while wearing weights.

That is a short basic explanation, but hopefullt it gives you
an idea.
JL

fiercest tiger

01-22-2004, 08:08 PM

JL,

I just watched an old kung fu flick that had what you just posted!

FT:)

Chin Chung Cao

01-23-2004, 04:46 AM

I had heard about the training using weights and jumping out of a hole that you gradually dig deeper. One of the methods my Sifu had told me about involves a devise that, for lack of a better description, looks like a playground see saw? The idea is to run across the see saw before it hits the ground,gradually lowering it closer to the ground which means you would have less time before it hits the ground. It supposedly gave one the ability to run across grass or snow without leaving any marks. Out of curiosity, I tried to run across one in a local park, I all but broke my back and that was the end of my experiment. The levitation I'd have to see to believe. My Sifu also talk's about Lum Sang's ability to do this and insist's that there were many people present who witnessed this. From what I have heard so far, no one fly's around in the sky like superman. They are supposedly able to rise a couple of feet off the ground for a very short time only.

David

01-23-2004, 06:13 AM

Someone I know's older relative could levitate, apparently. I understand this skill was associated with kung fu training.

I'm open-minded about it.

Rgds,
David

Glimmer

01-23-2004, 07:08 AM

Jumping high is one thing - being able to levitate is quite another!

Even Hakka/chinese guys find it amusing that us westerners, with our scientific approach to life, suddenly believe in all kinds of nonsense when we turn our eye to the East. David..I read this in that hakka forum link that you posted.

It is all part of a myth, much like the old racist myth of africa as being the dark continent. Stories get exagerated and there is no proof, just people who love the idea of the impossible and therefore pass the stories on. Levitating is NOT possible, no training will allow it to be so - not unless you are a magician like David Blaine and you can perform the trick (which I can do, and fooled people with).

This is the year of the monkey guys, wake up and smell the coffee.

Tit Sa

01-23-2004, 07:21 AM

I remember in the news a few years ago many people insisted that they saw a statue of the Virgin Mary crying. Hundreds of people flocked to the statue and insisted that they saw it crying. Except when the news camera filmed the statue, that's when it miraculously stopped.

Or maybe there was nothing their, except for the power of belief.

Funny how every sifu in the past can jump tall buildings in a single bound, stop a locomotive, etc. Yet, none of his students can do the same, and no one else can do it either.

Makes you go hmmm..........

David-
"Someone I know's older relative could levitate, apparently. I understand this skill was associated with kung fu training."

I have a bridge to sell. You want to buy it? It's hardly used. :D

CLFNole

01-23-2004, 08:45 AM

Believe nothing of what you hear and half of what you see.

Peace.

David

01-23-2004, 10:12 AM

Thanks for the lesson in scepticism. I have faith in the fruits of scientific endeavour. All will be made clear one way or the other.

The example I alluded to above isn't old enough to be a myth. High kung fu is spiritual in nature.

I also have a fascinating account of a keen observer who had levitation demonstrated in front of him. The guy lay across the train seats and levitated himself a couple of inches. He ended bathed in sweat.

Rgds,
David

CLFNole

01-23-2004, 11:10 AM

I think these people missed their window of opportunity. They should have been in the Olympics and did the high jump. They wouldn't have to run and jump head first and arc over the bar they could clear with just a standing jump.

I am constantly amazed as to the supernatural things people believe regarding kung fu. Kung fu is about hard work and dedication there is no magic involved.

Peace.

Losttrak

01-23-2004, 01:43 PM

I saw an ancient Penchak Silat Iron Body tape where they were jumping thru 3rd story windows and finishing the rest of their form. Crazy stuff. One guy had his leg gashed on a piece of glass and was literally GUSHING as he finished up. They would smack these chicks in the back of their heads with bokken, pour boiling oil on these guys bodies, all kinds of crazy shiyit. Sooo I would say its out there somewhere.

Golden Arms

01-23-2004, 03:45 PM

I heard a story that Chan Pui was challenged by a guy at his school, and said he would fight if the guy followed him outside. He then jumped out the 2nd story window and landed in the street, looked up, and the guy decided not to follow him. Enough heresay (sp?) though..I know that the UK prison inmate formerly known as Charles Bronson (not the actor) is known to have punched his arm through bullet proof glass, kicked a cell door off its hinges, jumped down from 3 stories into a yard to go after a guy, and a bunch of other crazy stuff...there are tons of witnesses to that stuff, but the guy is also a maniac, so dont discount all of it....you have enough time and enough practice at something, and enough lack of sanity to think you have a limit..you might break some barriers people think are not possible to pass.

David

01-23-2004, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by CLFNole
I am constantly amazed as to the supernatural things people believe regarding kung fu. Kung fu is about hard work and dedication there is no magic involved.

Well, let's see what kung fu is made of: -
wei kung - external
nei kung - internal
shen kung - spiritual

Shen kung does include magical thought and practice. This ties in with the account on the train which was a guy who'd trained his magical will.

Rgds,
David

CLFNole

01-23-2004, 07:39 PM

All styles have internal and external. I don't divide sytles into internal and external. The all aim for the same result but move along different paths.

Choy lay fut for example (my style) begins hard/external and at the higher levels involves becomes soft/internal. A so-called internal style such as tai chi starts soft/internal and becomes hard/external. True mastery is a balance of each, techniques that are 50% yin and 50% yang (it's very hard to find masters that have perfected their skills to this level).

I am not saying that through dilligent practice that certain feats cannot be accomplished, however, that being said alot of what you see out there today is fraud. To jump high is one thing to jump from standing over a 12' wall well lets just say I would think its a story that evolves as it is passed down. A lot of tai chi people think that they will glow through practice thinking that chi is something you can just throw around like a football. What many people think of a "internal" is perfected movement and proper breath control.

Lets take the story of Ku Yu Cheong and the killing of the horse. I would venture to guess that the story didn'y play out quite exactly like its told with him hitting it once and it dropping dead on the spot.

Peace.

Jook Lum

01-23-2004, 08:54 PM

Many things could be possible but most of it it B.S.. There are
a lot of nuts out there and a lot of gullible people and when
brought together they can both claim to have done and seen
almost anything.

I saw some wackjob on t.v one time who claimed he could levitate and said he learned from some mystic in tibet. He sat
on the floor cross legged and began to flex all his muscles at once and hop up and down like an idiot, at most a half an inch of the floor and when done claimed he was still tuning his body
into the forces of nature so he could not float very high yet.

I also saw a guy who claimed he was a Chi Kung Master and
was the only American to be taught these skills outside of
China then he stood in a horse stance in front of a lit candle
and said the Chi would extend from his hand and put out
the candle. Then he moved to about two feet from the candle
and took a deep breath in and pushed his arm out while blowing
all the air out of his mouth at the candle to put it out, just like
a birthday cake and most people stood an clapped and whistled
like he really had some great power.

Pretty sad!!!!!!!
Anyone else have any stories. I know a few more I will add
if others are interested.
JL

fiercest tiger

01-24-2004, 04:32 AM

I seen some pics in a real kung fu mag from honbgkong from the 70's and a guy is walking up the wall like a lizard but again we dont know if he ran up it or started just walking up it like a geko?

so many tricks in martial arts its hard to believe any of them.

FT

Glimmer

01-24-2004, 06:35 AM

David - You accept the lesson on skeptism as being a patronising one, and then reaffirm your slight belief in another person's story of someguy levitating up from a train seat?

Lol. Are you being ironic or something? Because up until now, every one of your posts (on this and other forums) have shown you to be a very intelligent and articulate person. I can't seem to match this with this train seat thing you keep mentioning.

Hynotists and magicians sometimes use water to give the appearance of sweating, this matched with real straining (sending blood to the head etc) often gives a sense of authenticity to what they are doing i.e. like they are performng a real physical feat. Of course they are not, it is a trick, they are messing with your perception.

When David Blaine first did his levitation trick, I quickly learnt how to do it and showed peope at work - some went crazy and asked me about meditation and stuff, they started following me around. It was nuts.

I expect the guy on the train was just trying out his latest trick/stunt he had bought from the local magic shop.

CLFNole

01-24-2004, 02:38 PM

The thing with this whole thing is if there was a sifu out there you could teach "light skill" and how to jump onto rooftops and walk on walls don't you think he would be making a fortune from all the kung fu "wackos" out there wearing the shaolin temple robes with the flutes on their backs. You know the ones I am talking about you see them at the tournaments looking like they just came from a Star Trek convention.

They would flock in droves to learn. So if they are out there they are truly missing their opportunity to get rich.

Peace.

David

01-24-2004, 08:13 PM

Oh yeah I forgot everyone is for sale.

That proves the case against anything that hasn't made it onto cable.

Chin Chung Cao

01-24-2004, 09:09 PM

I have to agree with David on this one, not everyone is in it for the money. The late Si Gung, Lum Sang See, if he really had the light skill's so many claim to have witness, I dont think you could have "bought" them from him. Lum would have never taught a non-Chinese for any amount of money. Look at the mess Jook Lum has become since his death. Perhap's his reasoning not to teach any but Chinese was well founded, American student's have tarnished what ever good he did for the system while he was alive. There are many good teacher's out there that would rather have one good student to pass their art along to over a pile of money. It's called integrity.

CLFNole

01-24-2004, 09:55 PM

I agree with you whole hardedly, however look around even on this website you have tapes of people teaching "iron crotch" for god's sake. So while I don't agree alot of people are "for sale".

For sale or not I still don't believe in the supernatural of kung fu. People can belive what they want. But really explain to me what levitation has to do with kung fu, oh wait maybe he had profound expertice in "fom pei kung".

Peace

P.S. Chin Chung Cao as far as the story you referred to about jumping down from a 2nd story is a bit different and more believable. There are ways to land and roll that allow this.

Tit Sa

01-24-2004, 10:54 PM

Was Lum Sang the only one to know the "light skill"?

I seriously doubt that. If you talk to every style practitioner they would have a si gung, sifu, si bok, grand poobah....who has light skill and every other skill you can name.

If light skill is true, then Lum Sang couldn't be the only and final person to know it.

So, logically the next question is where is the other people who know it?

Well, your answer is that they don't show it because of integrity.

So, logically again, then you are assuming that everyone who knows it HAS integrity then. Otherwise we would see it in the Olympics.

Ok......knowing what we know about corrupt police, politicians, physicians, judges,....and all these other occupations/positions that have power mixed with money; not to forget about the pride and power of the Chinese Government and Chinese people themselves, if "light skill" is demonstrated in the Olympics.

I ask you does it seem rational to assume every old KF master has no ambition for fame, fortune, money,....?

If your answer is yes, well...then I have a "Big Bridge" for sale, just for YOU!

Chin Chung Cao

01-25-2004, 06:18 AM

No one ever said that Lum Sang was the only person to learn light gung fu. Only that the few people alive that actually practiced it were dying off. I seriously doubt that any are alive anymore. I only pointed out that there are many out there teaching that money means very little to. No one said that all teacher's are incorruptible, only that many dont put money ahead of finding a good student. Stories of Light gung fu have existed in the martial art's for a long, long time. And like most storie's have some bases in truth. Unfourtunatly most, if not all, who practiced this type of gung fu have passed on. Just another small part of the whole that has been lost down through the year's. CLF Nole is correct, there is a lot of nonsense being passed off as "real" gung fu, and there will always be the blind that will buy into this crap without doing the research. If there is one thing I've learned over the years it would be not to pre-judge anything until you have the opportunity to check it out for yourself.

Glimmer

01-25-2004, 07:33 AM

"..they don't show it because of integrity"

Unfortunately, if this was the case, we'd never know what kung-fu masters are capable of or not...same with so called spirital masters who can apparently materialise objects (see the hundreds who claim this ability in India).

More important question is, why do you want to believe in such a thing? Ask yourself, why would it be important if it was true?

I accept that 'light skills' might be possible, although accounts of how light these abilities make you is the real bone of contention.

Saying that yogees or spiritual masters can levitate and use their mind to go outside of conventional physics, well this reveals you to have a belief system that is not grounded in reality. Literally:)

David

01-25-2004, 10:49 AM

Reality isn't grounded in our primitive understanding of it. Scepticism without enquiry is a form of ignorance.

I have information which I'm prepared to trust but it doesn't matter if it's wrong because I'm not living by it. For me, it's a case of wait and see or one day going to find out.

Rgds,
David

Tit Sa

01-25-2004, 12:26 PM

"Only that the few people alive that actually practiced it were dying off. I seriously doubt that any are alive anymore."

How convenient.

I say again. Lets say "light skill" is real and Lum Sang knew it. By default, he won't be the only one NOR THE LAST, because what one person can accomplish so can another. Even if we are talking about naturally gifted people.

So again where are they?

I don't pre-judge at all. I say show me. I use logic, and it is illogical to believe in such stories.

Sure light skill exists, but not to the extent of the fairy tales spun by your sifu at the kwoon. Jumping higher than Dwight Stone in the Olympics? I say bulls!t alert.

Sam

01-25-2004, 06:48 PM

I hate to disaggree Chin Chong Cao but Grand Master Lam Sang did teach a non-asian taxi driver who once helped him and one of the last five was half Haka and half Black.

Chin Chung Cao

01-25-2004, 07:08 PM

Thanks for the info Sam, I knew about the Taxi Driver, but it was my understanding that he was only taught a little by a few of Lum's student's, not Lum himself. There's quite an interesting storie behind the Taxi driver. The other gentleman I didn't know, thank's again for sharing that info.

Sam

01-25-2004, 09:28 PM

You're welcome. Keep up the good stories.

Ego_Extrodinaire

01-26-2004, 12:03 AM

I accept what David says. Alot of high level kung fu was lost when the Shaolin temple burned down. Ask yourself this, the chinese were the first ot invesnt the parachute, why would they need a parachute if they didn't have aircraft. It must have to soften the landing of those that can jump 100s of feet up into the air.

The chinese were also the most advanced in science and medicine, however, they still relied on kung fu. why? It must be because in parallel to their scientific developement, they came across a form of bio-energy called chi. They were able to train iron body, iron crotch aw well as dim mak techniques. I've heard of accounts that masters were able to project their chi to disable their opponents.

However, it takes a life time to train to such a high level, which evcentually led to the down fall of the chinese when foreign invades came with mass number of troops armed with guns. The chinese didn't have a concept of what's known as mass production although they were able to produce high quality people in small quantity.

Tit Sa

01-26-2004, 02:57 AM

Hey Ego-

I am really the owner of the Golden Gate Bridge. My great granfather owned the land before San Fran. city decided to illegaly build their.

I am trying to sell it for a great bargain, are you interested?

It will only cost you............ummm.......how much you think it is worth? :D

Glimmer

01-26-2004, 06:45 AM

"It must have to soften the landing of those that can jump 100s of feet up into the air.."

LOL! That comment has brightened up my day.

David - I will stop trying to alter your monist perception of the universe..was trying to make sure you are aware of how easy it is to make something appear possible that isn't, even if you witness levitation yourself. Personally, I don't think will power or thought can influence gravity in any way, nor do I believe in the antics of people like Richy Mooney.

Over and out.

Jook Lum

01-26-2004, 08:31 PM

Hello! Would you mind sharing the story about Lum and the taxi
driver?

Ego_Extrodinaire

01-28-2004, 06:49 AM

Glimmer,

Youre right on the point that will power alone cannot counter gravity. However, chi is not just will power alone. It takes years of training, taking of the right herbal medicine that enables one to project their life force.

It is said that one shaolin monk is worth 1000 ordinary foot soldiers. You might think this is unbelievable but I would say extrodinairy. To "graduate" from the shaolin school of kung fu, they have to fight through 12 chambers of bronze men. In a sense, robotic opponents. chi (or energy based techniques) are about the only thing that could stop a charging robot.

Tit Sa

01-28-2004, 03:00 PM

Ego,

The chamber you had to pass depended on the style you trained in.

For instance the toad style had to lie in a bed of nails and bend metal.

The centipede style had to break wooden poles real fast.

Snake had to crawl on the ground while breaking wooden poles.

The lizard had to climb on walls and punch out candles.

Scorpion had to fly through the air kicking pots and breaking poles. :D

Glimmer

01-28-2004, 03:15 PM

"..chi (or energy based techniques) are about the only thing that could stop a charging robot."

Lol! Ego, you are THE MAN.

I now have this fantastic anime style movie happening in my mind of shaolin monks being attacked by charging bronze robots..and the monks using only chi power to take out the intricate electronic circuits which power the robots. If only Disney would make this movie and have Steve Gutenburg as the lead monk.
:D

ctoepker

01-28-2004, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Chin Chung Cao
Is anyone here familer with or know anyone who still practice's this form of Gung Fu? What are your thought's on it? Fairy tale or reality?

You might consider the articles linked below...

Mystical Kung Fu (http://www.hunggar.org/his_sub3d.html)

Also, since the burning of the temple was mentioned, and possibly a loss of vital technique or training...

Riddle of Southern Shaolin (http://www.hunggar.org/his_sub3c.html)

And finally, since Damo often comes up in this sort of discussion...

Damo: Conspiracy of Ignorance (http://www.hunggar.org/his_sub1e.html)

From everything I can find, this sort of thing is a fairy tale.

Sincerely,
CT

Mika

01-28-2004, 04:57 PM

I kind of tried to say this on the Kung Fu board a while back, but it was misinterpreted, although I kind of was only slowly going there and didn't even really have a chance to elaborate. Or maybe it was because of that..:D

But I will take another chance here :)

Most people think of only fighting when they hear kung fu or martial arts. And they should, I agree. But when the measure of that is televized fighting - and mind you, I have great respect for those fighters and would not last a round with any of them - then something is missing.

People's perceptions of life in general are mostly based on their experiences. Experiences mold expectations. If one has been lucky enough - usually a lot of hard work is also required - then one has seen something that challenges one's perceptions and possibly even changes them.

I am a man of science and have always been and will always be very skeptical of anything I do not understand. I "believe" in logic. I also know the Chinese culture is full of tall tales (I actually like them as I find many of them very beautiful, however untrue they are).

But I was lucky once. What I saw wasn't exactly "light kung fu" as described here, but it was along the same lines. This was a closed door session, and what happened cannot be explained by science. It can be explained by other theories, of course. I cannot enclose any further details, but it was fighting related and very practical.

Supernatural is something we define by our perceptions. That should always be remembered. What was supernatural 1000 years ago, is common knowledge now. We, in 2004, are not the end of evolution and are not as smart as we could ever be. The buck does NOT stop here...;)

And I agree, although now I am entering muddy waters: it is quite possible these Masters of the Old are getting very scarce.

Mind is a like a parachute: it only works when opened...;)

Peace and love :)

Mika

ctoepker

01-29-2004, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Mika

But I was lucky once. What I saw wasn't exactly "light kung fu" as described here, but it was along the same lines. This was a closed door session, and what happened cannot be explained by science.
Mika

Mika,

It is interesting to hear a "man of science" say that something cannot be descibed by it. It has been my experience that anyone who says this fundamentally misunderstands science.

Science is a process of asking questions and trying to test the guessed-at answers. So, do you mean that you cannot even guess how it was done? Or perhaps what you mean is that current ideas about gravity, energy, mass, etc. are insuffecient to describe the event? In either case, an answer of "it can't be explained" is just poor scientific method.

Also, there are many things that science can't explain...because they are tricks. Science can't explain how Yuri Geller bends a spoon with his mind...because he doesn't. He does it with his hand.

In any case, I might suggest that if indeed this is unexplainable your closed door demonstrator might become quite rich. There is a Million Dollar Challenge (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) that he could get quite easily by doing the demonstation again, albeit a bit more publically. What do you think? Will he try? Be sure to let us know!

Sincerely,
CT

Tit Sa

01-30-2004, 12:50 AM

He won't try because he has too much integrity to display himself to someone who isn't going to be his student. Just like Lum Sang.

Especially, since he won't be paying his rent and food expenses as his students.

Ego_Extrodinaire

01-30-2004, 03:09 PM

ctoepker,

At some point science would have to acdept certain things because it appears to make the world work. Taking aside meta-physical events, science does not explain the WHY? behind the speed of light, mass od electron, gravititional constant and the list goes on. These are just things that need to be plugged into the equations that calibrate them to the real world. As with chi based techniques, science can measure it's effect but it cannot explain the fundamental reasons behind chi, as it cannot do with electro magnitism, strong, weak or gravition forces in this universe.

Latest scientific thinking suggest there may be up to 16 dimensions which is required for quantum theory to hold true. It is possible that the chinese, through their incantations have opend a door way into some of these dimensions whereby the laws of physics behave quite differently. These dimensions are said to operate locally, which raises the possibility of people flying up 100 feet into the air, or "grounding" themselves on a wall.

The fact that the chinese advanced this far with their science throusands of years ago suggest that an arms race was taking place between what we understand as science and what we would consider "magic".

For instance, why would the chinese have developed the semi-automatic cross bow when you know from western medieval history that one shot is sufficient to stop a knight fully clad in armour at a great distance. It must be because the chinese had to hit a target that is incredibly agile and is armoured with something that is far stronger than iron. Nothing in those days besides kung fu practitioners seething in chi could achieve that. and we know there were renegade monks that conventionally trained government troops had to stop (or try too).

These government troops were not large in number, but nevertheless concerned the sharmanic priest of old. Thousands of years before, we know that they were able to channel chi from the earht's life force to give "life" to corpses thereby moving them from one location to the next. They applied the same technique can raised armies to the dead that routed the governments strongest divisions - the archers. The chinese archers had all manner of bows of different "caliber" so to speak - but they were no match against the undead.

This possibly led to the development of gun powder and a dilivery system that resembles the weapons used in the 21th century. Thousands of years into the future! I'm talking about rockets, surface to surface rockets to blow up the undead. The chinese replaced their archers with arrays of rocket batteries that rained terror down from the skies.

JAZA

01-30-2004, 04:07 PM

Ego,
We can only knows "things" for their effects. That's why we affects our observations as Eisenberg stated.
There are more than 16 dimensions in physics and math, you can find hiperplanes, or multi"uni"verses in theory, but it's not something like a sixth sense or a twilight zone or an unknown dimension.
The fact that we don't have a unified field theory does not support metaphysics.

Ego_Extrodinaire

01-31-2004, 04:23 AM

Jaza,

Of course in maths, you can have an n dimensional system if you have n number of elements in your array. Don't forget in theoretical physics, alot of what is postulated may not be observed, and the number of dimensions has to do with making the equations fit. Yes there may be 16 for a theory, 17, 18 or more in others.

Yes, I agree, the act of observing changes the subkect matter as there isn't a so called "passive" observer. Refer to schrodiginer's cat. Isn't it amazing that the chinese "magic" has put this idea into practice. By altering their state of mind through meditation and training, they can manipulate the physical world in ways that seem contary to newtonian laws. Their chi based training may in fact hold the key in making large objects behave in quantum states, akin to Bose-Einstein Condensation, but in room temprature. That is just a guess.

Tit Sa

01-31-2004, 04:36 AM

Do you believe in magic,...la,..da,..la,...la....da....

Anybody remember that tune?

JAZA

01-31-2004, 10:10 AM

Ego, you are creative, may be you can write some sci-fi esoterical stories.

TenTigers

01-31-2004, 11:41 AM

ok, a couple of things: first, Ego-for someone who has haunted these boards as Troll Extroadinaire, your views on light body, Ch'i-Gung,and quantum physics are refreshing!
About Lam Sang-it has been said that he was very into San-Da, as were alot of people from his clan, and that might have contributed to that ability-talk about opening up a can of worms!
This might bring the two "sciences" together=spiritual gung-fu and quantum physics. I don't know enough about either to speak on this, but perhaps someone else will. Perhaps we can solve this riddle.
Three-there have been numerous world record high jumps over 8 feet, and running broad jumps of 30 feet. Wan Ji Ming in his younger days used to jump across the tracks from subway platform to platform. Not really outstanding when you measure the width of a subway track, but ballsy as hell to actually do it.
If you look at the way olympic atheletes train, it would not be impossible to see Gung-Fu adepts jump that high as well. Look at the height wu-shu performers get, or gymnasts doing floor ex. Over time, these stories might have gotten somewhat 'stretched' and thus legends were born. But all of them were probably based on some truth. Every culture-Asian,Indian,Native American, etc has stories of spiritual adepts living in seclusion achieving miraculous skills, such as levitation. Is it simply coincidence that they all are alike? There must be a grain of truth in there somewhere. I know that I was playing on the track with my daughters a few years ago, and I astounded myself with the distance I was able to jump, both standing and running. And I'm 47, and I don't practice jumping. Kinda makes ya wanna dig a hole in the back yard and get some ankle weights....
Here's another tidbit-I think I once saw some stuff on light body and they were talking about changing the elements within your body-meaning the energy quality in regards to the five element theory in TCM, or perhaps the five element in Tibetan Tantra-earth, air, water,fire, and spirit-which might be closer. Anyone know anything about this? The only thing I know is what I've read by Stephen Hayes.

ctoepker

01-31-2004, 12:11 PM

Ego,

You've got to be kidding! Right!? Well, in any case, congrats...you've successfully trolled me.

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
At some point science would have to acdept certain things because it appears to make the world work. Taking aside meta-physical events, science does not explain the WHY? As with chi based techniques, science can measure it's effect but it cannot explain the fundamental reasons behind chi, as it cannot do with electro magnitism, strong, weak or gravition forces in this universe.

Are you saying that Chinese science and/or chi theory does explain the WHY? Can you ellaborate? Also, I have never seen measurement of chi by 'science.' Can you ellaborate? Finally, are you saying that electromagnetism can't be measured? How do you explain a compass? Gravity can't be measured? How do you explain the "G" as a unit of measurement? As for the others...

Latest scientific thinking suggest there may be up to 16 dimensions which is required for quantum theory to hold true. It is possible that the chinese, through their incantations have opend a door way into some of these dimensions whereby the laws of physics behave quite differently. These dimensions are said to operate locally, which raises the possibility of people flying up 100 feet into the air, or "grounding" themselves on a wall.

I think you have greatly misinterpreted string theory. Nothing in the multi-dimensional thinking would lead one to believe that affects like flying or sticking to a wall are possible. Nor is there anything to indicate it can be triggered by speaking incantations. Indeed, at this point the dimensional discussion is purely theoretical and mathmatical. Many physists discredit it because there is no way to test for it. The retort by believers? Some day we'll come up with a way...we couldn't test for many of Einstein's theories right away either.

The point is that science often can explain they WHY. Why can't a human stick to a wall, but a geko can? Why can a several ton airplane fly, but a couple hundred pounds of man can't? There are answers, even if you prefer blinders.

The fact that the chinese advanced this far with their science throusands of years ago suggest that an arms race was taking place between what we understand as science and what we would consider "magic".

For instance, why would the chinese have developed the semi-automatic cross bow when you know from western medieval history that one shot is sufficient to stop a knight fully clad in armour at a great distance. It must be because the chinese had to hit a target that is incredibly agile and is armoured with something that is far stronger than iron. Nothing in those days besides kung fu practitioners seething in chi could achieve that. and we know there were renegade monks that conventionally trained government troops had to stop (or try too).

This incredibly ill founded. I think you haven't yet read the article I cross referenced above. Renegade monks and rebellions incited by them were put down time and again without much trouble by troops. You conclude that because there was an automatic crossbow there must be a magical arms race, but there is nothing like that in the record. Can you point to one instance from battle reports that indicate the magic you assert?

Indeed, if there were this magic, then why couldn't the government hire it too? Where are the pro-gov't magicians? And if they were so powerful, why didn't the Chinese take over the world centuries ago?

These government troops were not large in number, but nevertheless concerned the sharmanic priest of old.

This possibly led to the development of gun powder and a dilivery system that resembles the weapons used in the 21th century. Thousands of years into the future! I'm talking about rockets, surface to surface rockets to blow up the undead. The chinese replaced their archers with arrays of rocket batteries that rained terror down from the skies.
This puts the nail in the coffin of your arguments. Gov't troops that were not large in number? How many troops would you say was 'not large?' And what do you think the number of gov't troops was?

Furthermore, the Chinese never replaced their archers. Indeed, it is interesting that as they developed rockets, guns, etc. that they mixed all the ballistic technologies together and didn't change tactics much.

Ego, I suggest that you read more and day dream less. And congratulations again for successfully trolled me.

CT

Ego_Extrodinaire

02-01-2004, 06:59 AM

ctoepker

"Are you saying that Chinese science and/or chi theory does explain the WHY? Can you ellaborate? Also, I have never seen measurement of chi by 'science.' Can you ellaborate? Finally, are you saying that electromagnetism can't be measured? How do you explain a compass? Gravity can't be measured? How do you explain the "G" as a unit of measurement? As for the others..."

That's not what I'm saying, the forces that you mentioned can be measured, but science cannot explain why certain constants as you would have been aware of are needed to make the equations represent the universe we live in. No, science has not measured chi, because it is subject to the stae of mind of the practiitioner. Most chi kung experts today are very weak in any case. In the past sharmen were able to raise the dead, now all they do is tell fung sui.

"I think you have greatly misinterpreted string theory. Nothing in the multi-dimensional thinking would lead one to believe that affects like flying or sticking to a wall are possible. Nor is there anything to indicate it can be triggered by speaking incantations. Indeed, at this point the dimensional discussion is purely theoretical and mathmatical. Many physists discredit it because there is no way to test for it. The retort by believers? Some day we'll come up with a way...we couldn't test for many of Einstein's theories right away either."

Nothing to say that it can't. But what we know is that certain substances cooled to a temprature close to zero kelvin exhabit super conductive properties and can levitate in the presence of a magantic field. We know full well that shaolin monks can levitate and fly 100s of feet into the air. However, in my earlier post, I did say that I'll be guessing that they can transform matter into such properties at room temprature.

"The point is that science often can explain they WHY. Why can't a human stick to a wall, but a geko can? Why can a several ton airplane fly, but a couple hundred pounds of man can't? There are answers, even if you prefer blinders."

But that's assuming that you discount chi. The reason why shaolin monks test their chi kung against bronze men is so that they can prepare for armored calvery charge. Although the kwan do has a long range, chi that is focused on to a small surface area is far more deadly and has an even longer range. However, if there are iron deposits near by, it may reduce the accuracy of the beam. Water vapor in the air might also cause the beam to refract, lose power and create ozone.

"This incredibly ill founded. I think you haven't yet read the article I cross referenced above. Renegade monks and rebellions incited by them were put down time and again without much trouble by troops. You conclude that because there was an automatic crossbow there must be a magical arms race, but there is nothing like that in the record. Can you point to one instance from battle reports that indicate the magic you assert?"

Generals were afraid that if they reported bad news they would be executed. Don't forget, that the seidge on shaolin temple was accomplished by soldiers armed with cannons, heavy armour and vastly out numbered the monks. The monks on the other hand had good stick technique and kung fu. But if that were all that they had, it doesn't support the reasoning of sending such a large force to destory the temple. From deduction, it must be because the monks hgad powerful chi that could shield the temple from conventional ballistic weapons. You need arrays of cannon to breach their shields.

"Indeed, if there were this magic, then why couldn't the government hire it too? Where are the pro-gov't magicians? And if they were so powerful, why didn't the Chinese take over the world centuries ago?"

It takes a long time to train these "magicians". you need a type of training and philosophical thinking that run contrary to the way soldiers are trained. The herbs they use are rare and expensive. Plus you need to have a certain genetic disposition to have the training successful. According the military (as today) adopted scientific methods that can be more consitently replicated. The chinese couldn't take ober the world, because the monk's thinking is about peace and good will not about global conquest. chi based techniques is not a weapon where you can pull a trigger, it is about the person and his /her way of life.

"This puts the nail in the coffin of your arguments. Gov't troops that were not large in number? How many troops would you say was 'not large?' And what do you think the number of gov't troops was?"

I was saying that government troops armed with semi-automatic cross bows weren't large in numbers. They form a speciallyn trained task force to hunt down the chi experts. Of course the run of the mill monks will fall to conventional techniques. But it is the master that one must fear.

"Furthermore, the Chinese never replaced their archers. Indeed, it is interesting that as they developed rockets, guns, etc. that they mixed all the ballistic technologies together and didn't change tactics much."

Yes it is interesting isn't. rockets, guns, cannon, semi automatic cross bows, just to fight off a band of renegade monks. The answer is chi. A bow and arrow would find it difficult to hit something 100s of feet in the air flying at high speed. But rockets can. That's why we have surface to air missiles to shoot down planes. In china, there were no planes at that time, why build surface to air rockets?

Glimmer

02-01-2004, 07:16 AM

"100s of feet in the air flying at high speed" - Ego, u referring to chi men being able to do such stunts?

Lol.

You know, I can see why you would want to believe in such myths and folk legends, it makes the world seem better then it is. Every culture has folklore, exagerated stories handed down through generations - they are usually metaphors to teach you about how to approach life, do not take the content literally.

Unfortunately even chi men are human, humans cannot gain godly abilities - not even through thousands of years of training.

Feng

02-01-2004, 10:41 AM

Ego, it seems that you are condradicting yourself (correct me if i'm wrong)
why would the chinese have developed the semi-automatic cross bow when you know from western medieval history that one shot is sufficient to stop a knight fully clad in armour at a great distance. It must be because the chinese had to hit a target that is incredibly agile and is armoured with something that is far stronger than iron. Nothing in those days besides kung fu practitioners seething in chi could achieve that

it sounds like you think they invented the repeating crossbow specifically to fight Shaolin monks, but didn't you say that they were

because the monk's thinking is about peace and good will not about global conquest

in your former reply i get the idea that the monks really liked to go to war, i only know about the emperor asking for the monks to help him fight off some 'japanese' pirates, (forgot which emperor that was exactly). Besides that, they didn't like to get involved with government affairs. And remained in their monastery (except when their temple was attacked and burned down)

Yes it is interesting isn't. rockets, guns, cannon, semi automatic cross bows, just to fight off a band of renegade monks. The answer is chi. A bow and arrow would find it difficult to hit something 100s of feet in the air flying at high speed. But rockets can. That's why we have surface to air missiles to shoot down planes. In china, there were no planes at that time, why build surface to air rockets?

wow the chinese developed heat seaking missiles to shoot down flying monks:eek: to be honest i don't think they were that usefull to shoot something out of the sky, but since they had explosive power might be handy to damage troops that are packed together or something big like a city wall or so.

But i have to agree with you saying that science cannot explain why constants eg: G, c etc are behaving the way they do under certain circumstances. They are just parts to make the equations work and by that why a flying monk would also come back to the ground after jumping in to the air;)

peace...may the chi be with you

TenTigers

02-01-2004, 10:56 AM

I wanted to ad two things; first Jacky Chan can run up a wall. He does it in a corner and takes two steps and over the wall. I know he also takes a few takes to do this without falling back onto a mattress, but he still does it. We've all seen the out takes. You can see how this can be exaggerrated over time and like playing telephone, or if anyone has seen "Sgt, York" with Gary Cooper, where Sgt York saves his men by taking out a group of Germans in a bunker that were pinning them down with machinegun fire. As the story goes from man to man, the story eventually ends up saying that he captured an entire infantry battalion and the Kaiser. So that is one real example.
The thing about the Boxer rebellion, from what I've been told, is that the few people who were able to do real san-da performed miraculous feats. However, there is serious training required to 'house a spirit' within yourself. If this is attempted by a non-adept, as was the case, the spirit will not only leave, but also destroy the body and mind of the one 'possessed". Many people have tried, not only with San-Da, but with Ceremonial Magick, such as followers of Aliester Crowley, with the results being a total mental breakdown.

Glimmer

02-01-2004, 01:31 PM

I've heard numerous things about the 'housing of spirits' being at the top level of some internal styles - not sure what to make of it, although no doubt through enough meditation it is possible to dissolve the 'self'...not sure about tapping into other dimensions though. Either way, it is suspiciously close to the whole 'cult' thing we have to be mindful of when dealing with alternative cultures and martial arts.

You could argue that people like Alistair Crowley suffered some kind of mental illness before messing with the 'dark arts', perhaps seriously attempting such claivoyance is a symptom of delusion to begin eith.

Who knows, I ain't no doc:)

Isn't San Da sparring?

ctoepker

02-01-2004, 06:41 PM

Glimmer...

Originally posted by Glimmer
I've heard numerous things about the 'housing of spirits' being at the top level of some internal styles - not sure what to make of it, although no doubt through enough meditation it is possible to dissolve the 'self'...not sure about tapping into other dimensions though.
You might find this "Willing Possesion" (http://www.forumco.com/hungkuennet/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1213&FORUM_ID=9&CAT_ID=4&Topic_Title=%22+Willing+Possesion+%22&Forum_Title=%3Cb%3EGeneral+Discussion%3C%2Fb%3E) discussion interesting.

Ego, not even the ancient Chinese who you purport to understand so well gave chi the preminence you have. §Ú·Q§AÀ³¸Ó¦h¦h¬ã¨s§a! »Ý_nªº¸Ü¥i¥H¤¶²Ð¤@¨Ç¥i¾aªº«h®Æ. Until then, you've only built a conclusion that discounts all inconvient facts, information or observations. Good luck out there in the real world!

CT
(to read the Chinese, make sure you have the language packs installed in your browser. Then right click the page and select Encoding - Big5)

Ego_Extrodinaire

02-02-2004, 06:08 AM

Feng,

I'm not contradicting myself. The monks acted in self defence. What else could they have done but fight when thousands of government troops armed with their latest weapons march to their door step and threatend to burn their monetary down.

No the chinese did not have heat seeking missiles. They did have rockets that were launched from bamboo tubes. The come in packs of 4 to 8 and are carried by foot soldiers. When there is an incoming from the skies, the troops will create a "wall" of rockets as the monks come in for their strafing run.

Yes, some monks jump, others levitate and can cover great distances at high speed. They may not even acclerate but rather instantanously reach their desired speed level. That my be why they're not affected by accleration due to gravity.

Ten Tigers:

That's right, even up to the boxer rebellion, there were still some masters who posessed chi skills. But I must say, the age of chi had already passed and replaced by modern technology. Fighting lines have been killed off, their minds have been compromized by opium, and sacred texts that hold the key in controlling the spirits have been burnt.

The chinese did have the right idea, they knew that it would take too long to train enough people to become chi kung masters. They took the short cut by assimilating disembodied beings. However, it is not that the disembodied beings that were evil and caused them to go crazy, but rather, it was their minds who were not exposed to high levels of chi. Their minds over reacted, much like an allegic reaction some people have to pollen, bee stings and the like. The worse cases resulted in death. The crazed ones roamed the country side for decades that followed, becoming blood suckers and crazed killers.

Even for those who were able to contain the spirits, they lack the practice in focusing their chi. Could stop a punch, perhaps even bladed weapons, but bullets are a totally different story. It's a challenge even for an expert and there weren't any left at the time of the rebellion.

As you know, instead of a glorious victory, the chinese met their blood bath. If the outcome were the reverse, I might be talking to you about the possible use of "scientific technology" in warfare and I migh meet with this response - why use a gun when you can use chi.

Glimmer

02-02-2004, 02:13 PM

Ctoepker,

Thanks for that link - I just spent a good 40mins engrossed in it. Very interesting on a number of levels...make me wish I studied anthropology along with cultural studies:)

Any idea if this sort of practice exists in hakka arts? If so, I might devise some tests for when my sigung comes to town...if I'm brave enough. Lol.

ctoepker

02-05-2004, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Glimmer
Ctoepker,
Any idea if this sort of practice exists in hakka arts? If so, I might devise some tests for when my sigung comes to town...if I'm brave enough. Lol.

Sorry for the delay in response. The web site I wanted to refer you to went down...

Check this article out...religious movements in China (http://www.hunggar.org/his_manchu3.html#5a).

You may be surprised to find that the Hakka aren't all that different from other Chinese groups. [:)]

CT

Kymus

02-12-2004, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Golden Arms
you have enough time and enough practice at something, and enough lack of sanity to think you have a limit..you might break some barriers people think are not possible to pass.

I agree

ctoepker

02-12-2004, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Kymus

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Golden Arms
you have enough time and enough practice at something, and enough lack of sanity to think you have a limit..you might break some barriers people think are not possible to pass.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree

On the other hand, if this were true then a lot of people with a lack of sanity would be floating around, or bouncing bullets off of them, etc.

I wonder why we don't see that happening?

CT

Mika

02-12-2004, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by ctoepker

I wonder why we don't see that happening?

CT

You do?

Ego_Extrodinaire

02-13-2004, 04:50 AM

Kymus,

That is because the training methods have been lost following repeated destruction of the shaolin temple. Plus, repeated wars and battles wipped out the fighting lines of the old masters. These began with the chinese government troops, boxer rebellion and japanese invasion.

The old masters did break some barriers, knowing that, the government troops had to contract a traitor white brow to purge the temple defenses. The monks defending the temple were so powerful that thousands of government troops would not be a match against a handful that had chi.

Glimmer

02-13-2004, 05:51 AM

I heard it was White Eyebrow, Gandalf and the Witch-Finder General who finally defeated the evil monks..

Ego_Extrodinaire

02-13-2004, 08:50 PM

Glimmer,

The age of magic was in decline which allowed the mongols to invage China. During the 17th C, you see a resurgence of kung fu through a number of northern styles that were quite powerful. However, their techniques were physical, not much chi as it was based on bits and pieces of lost texts.

The masters of these 2nd Generation styles were correct in practicing their chi kung under trees to collect chi energy over the years. In the old days, monks would suck up the life force of a forest in an hour's worth of training.

By the time of 2nd world war, the age of magic in china was finally over. In the west, it was over when the torch was passed on to man.

ctoepker

02-14-2004, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by Mika

You do?

Mika,

What, see people floating around? Or people able to bounce bullets off themselves? No. Of course not.

That's the point. No one did.

While some have convinced themselves this stuff happened once upon a time in a magical China, there really is no evidence for it at all.

CT

freehand

02-14-2004, 08:59 AM

<sigh.>
I have seen several high masters from various arts at seminars and demos, and have marveled at their skill. I have seen a few actions which made the hair on the back of my neck stand on end. (But I have tentative explanations which encompass normal physiology and physics.) I have never seen a simple act of athleticism which surpassed an Olympic athlete's feats.

In one movie, Bruce Lee kicks out a light in a ceiling - very impressive. But the light hangs down, and he twists in the air, a very acrobatic move. I estimate the light was 6.5 feet (2 m) off the ground, and his center of gravity was 5 to 5.5 feet. Much better than I could do, but it wouldn't win the gold as a high jump.

Just because someone can bench press 250 kg doesn't mean there is someone out there who can do 500. There are limits to the human body. I do not know what the limits to human co-ordination and kinethetic awareness are, but I have a good idea of the limits to strength and speed.

I have seen no indication that there is anything to chi which can't be explained by focus, skill, pressure points, timing, balance, and leverage. Perhaps there is more, but I will wager that whatever amalgamation of processes it may be, it does not extend beyond the master's skin. It will not be felt by the attacker except as the master touches him, or thru psychological effects, (which may be considerable).

The universe is a strange and wondrous place, and it need not lose its magic for you just because you discount, ermm... magic.

As for using many troops to attack the Shaolin Temple, well, how many SWAT team cops are sent to clear out a gangster's nest? The police aren't interested in a fair fight either; they want overwhelming force. Besides, the monks had a reputation already, and Emperors tend to believe the worst in their potential enemies.

Train as your teacher says, but take his stories about *his teacher's abilities with a grain of salt.

TenTigers

02-14-2004, 09:21 AM

I am a hopeful skeptic-meaning I don't immediately discount something, but I also don't immediately believe in it either. I want to see it, feel it, witness it first hand. I want to believe, but you'd better show me.
I still would like to know how selective breaking is done.

ctoepker

02-14-2004, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by TenTigers
I still would like to know how selective breaking is done.

There are probably a few ways to do it...here is one that works.

Alternately freeze and heat a brick. It will look the same but become very brittle. Carefully put it in a stack of numbered bricks and then use a sleight of hand trick to 'force' the selection of the brick.

One easy way to 'force' is to do the trick in front of a crowd. Show them the stack of bricks you've made. Be sure to have them test out a couple of real bricks seperately and reassure them that there is no sleight of hand or other tricks. (In the great words of Penn & Teller, lie.) Then have the audience shout out which brick you should break so that they can choose the brick, not you.

Of course, in reality you're in control the whole time. The trick is that you know which brick is breakable and when you hear the pre-determined one, you say "OK, I heard 'number 7' first" and then hit the stack with #7 in it. It will break and you will be a Chi-filled master in their eyes.

Now that I have shared this with you all, I am sure you'll want to buy my chi-filled master video instructional course for 10 easy installments of just $49.99! Can you handle the power of a kung fu black belt?! ;)

Of course, you could also just lose your sanity as suggested above and then break the limits of physics. :D

Good luck,
CT

Ego_Extrodinaire

02-15-2004, 05:41 AM

My point is, the masters in the old days could surpass what we consider to be human limits. However, I do agree that there were few who havew mastered their skills to such a high level because it takes a genetic disposition to gain mastery. As such, they might not have appeared in official records. We know that the chinese government troops designed a fantastic array of weapons that would not be reproduced in over 2 centuries later. Understand the evidence need not be direct but can be inferred.

ctoepker

02-15-2004, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire

...mastered their skills to such a high level because it takes a genetic disposition to gain mastery...
We know that the chinese government troops designed a fantastic array of weapons that would not be reproduced in over 2 centuries later. Understand the evidence need not be direct but can be inferred.

Inferring genetically predisposed magical super soldiers from
anything currently in the record is going to be far fetched. One can fill the gap with all sorts of assumptions, but that doesn't create evidence or a solid conclusion.

Can you provide a brief list of the weaopns that you know of but which cannot be reproduced? Please don't repeat the above example of rapid fire cross bow. That has been reproduced.

CT

Ego_Extrodinaire

02-16-2004, 04:26 AM

Soldiers didn't usually have those weapons, which takes a life time to train and a frame of mind that runs contrary to the military. They are advance forms of what we see today, like death touch - but at great distances. Levitation to the point of high speed flight. Breaking, burning, disintegrating, objects with chi at a distance, godly accuracy and precision with swords, rooting, light kung fu, controlling the elements, there could be more. Shaolin also has a training chamber of bronze men made from gears and levers. We are only scratching the surface of robotics today. There is much we can learn from ancient chinese as their civilization is thousands of years old.

ctoepker

02-16-2004, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Soldiers didn't usually have those weapons, which takes a life time to train and a frame of mind that runs contrary to the military. They are advance forms of what we see today, like death touch - but at great distances. Levitation to the point of high speed flight. Breaking, burning, disintegrating, objects with chi at a distance, godly accuracy and precision with swords, rooting, light kung fu, controlling the elements, there could be more. Shaolin also has a training chamber of bronze men made from gears and levers. We are only scratching the surface of robotics today. There is much we can learn from ancient chinese as their civilization is thousands of years old.

Ego,

As a great Chinese master once said, if The Ancients could fly, why did they all have stairs in their homes? Likewise, if chi and magic really was utilized in the way you say, why would Shaolin need gears and levers to animate the bronze men? Why not just animate them with magic?

Earlier you said that the sorts of weapons you're suggesting weren't reported because soldiers or officers were afraid of looking bad in their reports. How then did they explain the fact that their men were exploded by chi blasts? How did they keep all soldiers quiet? Likewise, how come none of the soldiers you suggest were ever pro regime? Certainly Shaolin monks were more often than not interested in good relations with the current court...even the Qing!

So, maybe you are suggesting that novels and folk tales are the real story?

If so, why don't we see any residue from these exploits? Craters where the earth was blasted? Or excess chi left over in areas of great magical battle, like atomic fallout? Surely great energy discharge must be detectable?

Good luck,
CT

Ego_Extrodinaire

02-17-2004, 06:23 AM

Not all ancients could fly. And those that do also like to blend in with the population I guess. Plus I guess it takes more energy and high levels of concentration to fly.

I don't know why the shaolins don't animate bronze men, maybe there are limitations to animation techniques. Fung Sui experts were able to raise the dead with spirits. Generally, they used to be corpses of slained manchu troops. But even then creating a bipadial walking / fighting bronze man is a feat in itself and not one that mordern science can accomplish.

People who fought in those conflict knew what to do, monks and soldiers alike. The ruling family lived in seclusion in the forbidden city that was fortified against the outside world.

There probably were some monks or soldiers who defected. Of course the monks were interested in maintaining and fostering good relations but political decisions shift like the sands - like we see in today's conflicts.

We have acupunture right here but science has not been able to determine "residuals" from the treatment. Maybe science does not have the instruments yet to measure the effects of chi. china has gone through many conflicts and industrial development, who's to say what caused any given crater.

What we know of the chinese is that their knowledge of medicine in many respects were ahead of 19th centuary europe. They had weapons that were unheard of in medieval europe. The Chinese knew that magnesium burned with a bright flash and frequently deployed this on their rockets. The combined effect of the concusion shock wave and the blinding flesh must be disorientating to any monk. if you disrupt the monk's meditative state, they could lose their iron body ability as well as come crashing to the ground.