Have you noticed a problem in HK KF movies ?

[Chinwoo-er]

Alot of the time, they have stories about japanese martial artist coming to kick some serious butt in China back into Qing/early republican era to show that they are superior and all that. Somehow they beat a whole bunch of losers and the hero of the story comes out and regains the honour of Chinese people. However, I have come to realised that almost in all cases, the "national representative" is always a karateka or uses alot of karate techniques

But when you come to think about it, strictly speaking, karate is not going to be the martial arts the japanese government would want to use to beat up the chinese. Several reasons comes into this.

(1) Karate, strictly speaking, isn't Japanese. Until the founder of shotokan (sorry, can't spell his name) brought it to japan, it wasn't even known there. And during those times, it wasn't really accepted well.

(2) If anything, karate is actually anti-japanese. Karate was used by the Oakinawans to fight off the japanese rule over their island hundreds of years ago. Not too unlike style used by the boxers in the boxer rebellion. True, there have been a change in government since those times. But hey, at the end of the day, a bunch of Oakinawan farmers and fishermans beating full blooded Japanese warriors isn't something every japanese back then is proud of. Isn't using karate to represent the japan 100 years ago just another slap on the face ?

(3) There are plenty of other styles that the Japanese government can use that are great. Why would they chose that ?

Hence, I am wondering why is it that HK movie are always using the "evil karate vs the good kung fu" as a plot ? Sure, after WW2, I can see why people like using the japanese as being the bad guys. You see Nazis as being shown as bad guys in all kinds of American fiction. But why use only karate ??

Is it because they know nothing about other forms of japanese arts ? Or is it because the fight scenes would look a whole lot better if people where throwing sum punches instead of grappling.

Anyone familiar with the HK movie industry that can explain this ??

[Nick]

Okinawa is part of Japan, really.

Later...

[No_Know]

Until they reply...Te is Okinawan, Kara-te later. But when the Okinawan taught the Japanese, there might not have been full transmission to the oppressors.

The Japanese stereotypically are known to take a thing/concept and use the nature of a thing to great advantage.

The winner writes the history books. China Hands must have some good stuff. I think it looks mechanically sound (Shotokan) and really neat. It might even be Fun! The Japanese don't need to harp(y) on from where it comes. Learn it well and it's yours.~ The Japanese might have altered the original, thinking we are Nippon what we change makes it better. It is different therefore This New thing is Japanese.

The Japanese live and learn. They also listen to what they are told, in mass. It's a new, Japanese thing we have lots of instructors. Take instruction in it. It's good for you. While there are other Japanese martial arts/ Samurai Arts Americans inthere bottomline-ness might have picked-up and spread in their Oh I know that-ness, called it karate and it was popular enough that that's what you associate with Japan.

The Statue of Liberty is thought of when thinking of the United States Of America. I understand that it is a gift from the French many years ago. A French thing associated as representing America. Perhaps you can better see the possibility of an Okinawan thing being considered the world over as representative of Japan.

Movies do not serve Historical correctness. They contain representations that are understood--stereotypes. People do not necessarily know what the actual is. But they know the first thing they are told. And I don't get that there is aikijitsu when I'm told fighting of Japan is Karate. I'm busy and not that interested. I'll take whatever I'm told and get on with Important things. Plus, to me I am now more knowledgeable than most. Fighting of Japan is called Karate. When I go to a movie or see a audio video recording for the purpose of entertainment and I hear aikijitsu I think gesundheit! and that's weird (I thought it was called Karate). When I go to a movie or see a audio video recording for the purpose of entertainment and hear street fight/jail house rock I think ...no thought, that makes sense and I understand. When I go to a movie or see a audio video recording for the purpose of entertainment and I hear Karate I think wow! that's what those forgeiners Call it. I've heard that before! The movie got it right. Wow! this is accurate (and I knew something more than some of the people around me and I was right)~

Very whatever, very good.

[No_Know]

Karate is now seen written with the characters for Empty hand. So today Nick you might tell me Karate means emty hand. Prior to 1930's the characters used to represent Karate were China Hand.

Okinawa was independant of Japan some time ago. Possiblly within this indepence of which I speak came about the trade between Okinawa and China that lead to the Te of Okinawaand later Karate associated the world over as supposedly Japanese.

Also, Nick, the NFL (National Football League) team called colts from what city are they. To push my point, I'll say you would tell me Indianapolis Colts. They weren't always Indianapolis. I recall a phrase, Baltimore Colts.

The Cardinals? Arizona? I heard the phrase St. Louis Cardinals.

And do new maps of current European geography contain a country called Yugoslavia (even as a nick name). Was there ever an East and West to Germany?...Heard of B(bay)D(day)R(air) relating to Germany?...Things change if you don't know enough history you can look No_Knowing to those with more years or those who picked-up stuff before you did.

It's nice that you were being informative and kept from being too smug.

Not just you Nick, Knowing When someone is talking about, might be a factor in, if you know about What they are talking.

Later, Sooner...before...after... There might be a difference.

Very whatever, I No_Know

[Vash]

For categorizing martial arts, Okinawa must be considered separate. At least in regards to the te and karate of Okinawa.

I won't rehash what correctness No_Know sumoed out of the ring, so I'll just point at his post whilst screaming *boss, the facts, the facts!*

[Pork Chop]

Uchinanchu will never be Naichi.

[BlueTravesty]

Good thread :)

Interesting timing too... I just saw "Fist of Legend" with Jet Li the other day. I was thinking "Man... Jet Li and Yuen Woo Ping... how can I lose?" (well, I lost... though it wouldn't have been SO bad without the dubbing.)

Fist of Legend has the exact same thing though... it even has a character named Funakoshi (I think the character's first name was Fumio, though... a reference to Fumio Demura, perhaps?) and there's very little Jiu-Jutsu to be seen, mostly Karate. What got me about it is that the "bad guy general" (a karateka of course) was shown doing Iron Body qigong routines (driving nails into boards with head/hands, withstanding sharp blows without flinching, etc.)

[Pork Chop]

That "iron body" could've passed for some Pan Gai Noon that I've seen... but then i think the point we were trying to make is that the Japanese soldiers wouldn't have been using "redneck farmer martial arts" of the Uchinanchu.

[Vash]

BMore Banga has just taken the correct and applied a redneck elbow straight outta the Compton-borne Naihanchi kata to it's neck, thus rendering unable to defend itself from factual molestation.

[Chinwoo-er]

and there's very little Jiu-Jutsu to be seen, mostly Karate.

Thats exactly what I am trying to say.
HK movie plots are always using karate. While if the japanese government really wants to show the world the "superiority of the japanese empire", karate is going to be the last thing on their mind. Because it is the style that the peasants used for uprising.

Lets use another hypothetical example. If lets say Tibet was to start an uprising in China. And that it, using Lama Pai Kung fu and beat out the chinese oppressers, but due to social political changes, it becomes a part of china again. Would china really want to use Lama Pai if it was going to show the world the superiority of chinese martial arts ????

Same thing can be said for mongulian wrestling. While it is likely that they will be accepted as being a part of the CMA arsenal of styles. I seriously doubt it that it would be the one that the chinese government would send out to represent themselves

[cho]

Wouldn't Japan send a jujutsuka? I mean in Chinese movies, they use the JMA that looks similar to CMA for choreography purposes.

Edit: Post above mine was posted at the same time.

[cerebus]

Uuuuh guys?.......they're just movies! Most of them do not try to be historically accurate. Has anyone noticed that it's not REALLY possible to fly through the air? How about one old man using a flute to defeat multiple sword-weilding attackers? But guess what? It's entertaining. Back in the 70s when this genre became strongly established, Karate was the JMA that everone talked about and Kung Fu was the CMA everyone was talking about. Filmmakers took note and it's become a classic genre since then. That's why. ;)

[Ikken Hisatsu]

you guys argue about the most moronic things. why on earth would they make a movie of kung fu vs ju jitsu? kung fu vs karate is far more entertaining. sure ju jitsu would be more effective I guess but ITS A BLOODY MOVIE not a real fight. honestly.

oh and whoever said that fist of legend sucked needs to die. painfully and slowly. "OMG HE IS BREAKING ROCKS..... HE STOLE FROM KUNG FU!?!?!?!?!" give it a rest you twat. I've no doubt that the japanese break rocks and push nails into boards as well. or maybe he DID "steal" it from the chinese because hes a dastardly bad guy?

[Vash]

Ikken Hisatsu;

:rolleyes: :confused:

Not everything is serious.

Or is it?

[mickey]

Greetings Chinwoo-er and Brothers,

I see that kind of historical inacurracy for two reasons:

1- the choreographer does not know any Japanese martial arts

2- propaganda

3- it is not a Japanese movie.

The most honest representation of Japanese martial arts in a Chinese movie was "Heroes of the East": directed by Liu Chia Liang and starring Liu Chia Hui (Gordon Liu). Even the Japanese enjoyed that movie. Chinwoo-er, you should check that one out. It definitely is the flower amongst the thorns of your lament.

mickey

[mickey]

My counting is off today!

That was THREE reasons!! (Laughter)

mickey

[Nick]

I knew that it originally meant China Hand, but I'm a bit confused... Okinawa isn't part of Japan?

Later...

[No_Know]

" WAIT!! I know of Japan but "OKINAWA?!??" Okinawa is the southern most prefecture (or state) of Japan. Since, Okinawans have their own culture, language, and traditions which began eons ago (well around 1200/1300 A.D. and possibly earlier) when Okinawa was known as the Ryukyu Kingdom."-http://www.virtualginza.com/ (Bottom of page)

Okinawa WAS seperate, as in Not part of Japan. Okinawa currently seems to be part of Japan (Kyushu) Now.indicator of not part of Japan (http://www.well.com/user/nobumasa/opinion.html)

To show it is now considered part of Japan Today~ When can matter.
Administrative divisions; fourth under Government (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html)

[Pork Chop]

Thanks for the links No_Know. Haven't seen some of those sites in years. Completely in "homesick" mode now though. :( hehe

Sadly Okinawan language (Uchinaguchi) seems to be dying- heard of a few small preservation efforts led by some dedicated folks, but time will tell if it's enough. Other aspects of the culture seem to be flourishing though (like eisa dance).

If you ever want to read up on some cool Trojan Horse kinda political intrigue and subterfuge, I suggest reading up on how the Japanese got Okinawa in the first place- nice little history lesson.

[BlueTravesty]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
you guys argue about the most moronic things. why on earth would they make a movie of kung fu vs ju jitsu? kung fu vs karate is far more entertaining. sure ju jitsu would be more effective I guess but ITS A BLOODY MOVIE not a real fight. honestly.

oh and whoever said that fist of legend sucked needs to die. painfully and slowly. "OMG HE IS BREAKING ROCKS..... HE STOLE FROM KUNG FU!?!?!?!?!" give it a rest you twat. I've no doubt that the japanese break rocks and push nails into boards as well. or maybe he DID "steal" it from the chinese because hes a dastardly bad guy?

*checks own post, frowns, and nods*
No, I didn't say he stole it from kung-Fu... and OMG definitely wasn't in there. I think it was YOU who said that. It's ok though, I'll assume it was one of your other personalities that posted that and let bygones be bygones.

my point, which I didn't wish to beat anyone over the head with, was that toward the end it seemed to objectify "Hard vs. Soft" with Jet Li's character seeming to symbolize the soft and "evil badly-dubbed Japanese general guy" the hard. Despite the fact that "Hard" Qigong was a part of China's MA repetoire for quite some time. Stealing anything from Chinese martial arts wasn't in there. If it were my point, I would have totally eschewed the already widely accepted, and hardly-up-for-debate fact that Karate is comprised of Chinese martial arts and Okinawan indigenous fighting techniques.

Peraps borrowing from your penchant for misquotation, that could probably have been said as "OMG Y TEH JANAPESE SI USIN GKUNGFU!!!???LOLOLOLOLOL" or something like that.

Oh... and as for Fist of Legend being a bad movie, I remember saying "I LOST" not "THIS MOVEI R TEH SuX0RZ", and even if I had, that's my opinion. Perhaps this opinion was shaped by the fact that the dub was casted by a bunch of horribly untalented voice actors whose bitterness over not being real actors shows through in every line of dialogue. And maybe the idiotic "fast-forward" during certain fight scenes was part of the dub and not the original, or else, you were able to tolerate it. Congratulations, I'm happy for you. I have to admit the fight against Funakoshi was really good. And the scenes where Chen Zheng trains the guys at Jing Wu were good. The others were too overdone with too many clipped camera angles. And the fast-forward effect during some of those fight scenes gave it a sort of "Little Rascals" feel, which I just didn't like.

By the way, just so you don't have to misquote me on THIS post also, there's a handy button that will appear under it. It's called the "quote" button. You can click that to quote portions of this post, and use it in reply!

I'm just here to help :rolleyes:

[Nick]

How different is their language? Or is it merely a dialect?

Later...

[Pork Chop]

Completely different, with different grammar... these days tho, for most young Okinawans it's some slang words mixed in with their Japanese vernacular. Mainlanders will try to tell you it's just a dialect.

So it is kind of getting forcibly wiped out.

But like I said there are some folks trying to preserve it as a full language.

[No_Know]

Secret Master, The Brooklyn or Bronx Zoo collection. Might be Wu Tang (clan) collection. Honor of their respective countries start of the Chin Woo Association.

Japanese versus Chinese, Deul to the Death--a sword movie.The two countries have their best swords people fight for an honor that the countries use to claim superiority of a time.

Japanese versus Chinese Shaolin versus Ninja-Run Run Shaw. A comparisons of Japanese styles and weapons to Chinese, mostly weapons , fit nicely into the story/as part of the story.

[Fu-Pau]

Shaolin versus Ninja... Bit dated now, but a good movie :)