Principals and concepts of WCK

[Gangsterfist]

Okay anyone here who has trained WC knows its full of concepts and principals.

I am curious to which ones work for you guys? Which ones do you find outdated or old technology? Which ones should be modified and how?

By really work I mean you have used them in real life situations where you had a real full contact fight with a mugger, or guy at a bar, or your girlfriends exboyfriend.

Simultaneous attack/defense has worked pretty well for me a few times in real fight situations.

[anerlich]

This is an interesting subject, and while I don't really think that any of the principles in TWC are obsolete or out of date, my Sifu has always advised me to consider carefully whether or not each maxim has an accompanying weakness associated with it, if you take it too uncritically.

Examples:

Too much concentration on centreline and the "straight ine shortest distance between two points" can lead you to a "tunnel vision" mentality where you are vulnerable to flanking and hooking attacks.

Too much reliance on chi sao and touch sensitivity can leave you vulnerable to long range attacks launched from outside contact range.

Taking "simultaneous block and attack" too far or too literally can result in responses without power, or inefficiency ... often it is better for the defence to slightly precede the attack to allow most effective use of body mechanics.

Taking either "softness" or "hardness" too far can lead to ineffectual technique.

Assuming your system is complete, perfect or the best is very dangerous. Look for the holes, you WILL find them. Don't look, the guy you fight will find them.

Not quite what you wanted probably, but I've never been mugged, hardly ever go to bars, and my wife's first husband was a shorta$$ wimp who wore elevator shoes and was always (unsuccessfully) chatting up other women at parties :D

Hopefully this might get some interesting discussion going.

[Gangsterfist]

Another thing about concepts of WC that perked my interest lately is about whether or not you can consider certain techniques wing chun or "wing chun minded" ones.

So if my arms are trapped against my body by my opponet (you never want to be in this position, but it can happen) and I rush in immediately with a head-but is that considered wing chun? It was my closest weapon, and I struck my opponet with it. That is a wing chun concept, but does wing chun ever really emphisize using your head as a weapon? Maybe as a last ditch effort, but my situation probably wasn't a last ditch effort one.

So does that mean a hook punch can be wing chun? Or a round kick? Or a flying kick? or a certain grapple move?

Just some thoughts...

[tiger_1]

my friends for wc traning im see tree fasess : like first wingchunger must first see wing chun must see idea, hiden side must fill wing chun inside , two wingchunger with HARD WORK must learn how can use wing chun , and must be one parth with wingchun ,and tree wingchunger must be createur must have own kung fu inside , must be executor with wing chun tehnic ; for princips and rules in wing chun must important :with all tehnic must strong atact to oponent center line without that all tehnic in wing chun is noting , wing chunger must use beimo troug. in work must think fr tze dz. and how important is . - AND FOR MANY JUNG WINGCHUNGERS THO CANT SEE STRONG SIDE OF WING CHUN AND THO DNT BELIVE IN WING CHUN IM LIKE TO SAY SOMTING : IN PAST IM HAVE USED WING MANY TIME , ALLSO IM USE WING CHUN IN SITUATIONS ;LIVE DEATH IN ARMED FIGHT IN WARRS SITUATIONS , CLOSE ARMED FIGHT AND NABER , SUPPORT FROM CHUN TEHNIC , AND POWER IS ENORM OR : AFTER THAT SITUATIONS YOU CAN SAY INSIDE SELFE MANY TIMES TANX FOR WING CHUN FOUNDERS , WING CHUN SPIRIT IN REAL FIGHT IS BIG ENORM. - tiger_1 ( my all experience talking to me somting : all positions in wing chun ,all spirit in wing chun , all support for great speed and onthers is noting else but great creations and progres wing main or must dangerous weapon in kung fu world -BONG SAO ):cool: :cool: :cool:

[reneritchie]

Most of the concepts in WCK are extracts from much older Chinese strategy (and in some cases can be found word for word in works like Art of War or 36 Strategies).

They're pretty time tested, and as with any age-old-advice, general (and sometimes contradictory) enough to remain rather timeless. ('maximum efficiency through minimum effort', 'rest and let the enemy fatigue', etc.)

Thus, I'm not sure any concepts can actually be out-dated or fail, but rather we can run into problems with either our interpretations of them (c.rappy translations abound) or understandings of them.

For example, I've yet to actually find a saying which related 'shortest distance is a straight line', but I do have 'hard and soft combine in use'.

And headbutts are in the WCK sets, at least how I learned, and how my teacher's teacher learned back in the 1930s. :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Aside from your wife's ex-husband's exploits...your post, Andrew, made excellent wing chun sense - or perhaps I should say...

excellent "what could possibly go wrong with wing chun" sense.

[Gangsterfist]

Just curious where does WCK show headbutt techniques besides the last sets of the biu jee form?

[Ernie]

the weakness in wing chun is simple , [[ labels ]]
my wing chun, your wing chun, this wing that wing chun , the first wing chun , and the funiest one of all ''pure'' wing chun.

when there are labels there are rules when there are rules there are limitations that bind you to a '' label''

everything that makes wing chun strong is a weakness when you need it like a crutch, or you have to prove it cuz so n so says its that way

[Gangsterfist]

I am by no means a purist. I cross train and use other martial arts besides wing chun. WC just happens to be one of my favorites, and I have my own personal reasons.

When I question if something is wing chun, it is simply to analyze it. If something is not wing chun and it works, well then I use it. When explaining techniques to others in my class that work and are not "wing chun minded" I explain its not typical wing chun. This is so that they know its not typical wing chun. Later on if they decide to pass down the art, they can also explain what techniques are and aren't so wing chun minded. This will preserve the art for what it is. Now I am not saying wing chun is a set system. Every sifu will change things here and there with their wing chun and may even teach slightly different. That is perfectly fine, and expected on my behalf. However, going around and explaining to certain people how a non-wing chun technique is WC can start needless arguments. I also explain this to my junior class mates so they don't think wing chun is the ultimate fighting art when they reach a certain level.

This is an open discussion and your opinions are your own. When I discuss techniques that are wing chun minded, it is to analyze or perhaps apply certain philosophy behind it. I like to keep distinct knowledge about certain things to better explain them and analyze them. I question what I do and what I train for. If you do not, that is your own descision. By questioning these things I get a better understanding of what I am able to do in reality, and know what I am not able to do. To me this is important.

So this was basically just a discussion not by all meant to label anything, and I appollogize if it seems that way. I was curious of what concepts apply to reality and what have changed. If anything once you get to a certain point in your training you should ultimately unlearn what you have learned. Accept the fact that you may not be able to attack the center that you may not be able to stick to your opponet, and so on. So don't let my posts on this thread lead to an elitist outlook on wing chun.

[Ernie]

g fist
don't think your a purest '' wouldn't label you :D ''
i just answered in a round about but honest way, once you try and put a label on what wing chun is or is not , it limits ones natural expression , and then the robots rise up :)
wing chun is simply a training system , a tool , to be used and controlled by the owner of that tool , you drive your car your car doesn't drive you , you might study every little detail for a life time about how your car is made and research it's roots and track down the first cave man that made the stone wheel , and study his technique and maybe even try and imitate his life and live in a cave .
but it doesn't mean you can drive your car . in the begining you drive with both hands on the wheel and check your mirriors and follow all the cave man rules '' trapped by the technique '' but after you get the feeling and experience you can drive with your feet if you want to .

the weakness is the strength until it's all natural and adaptive
can't peg it down to this or that concept or technique , those things all change as you shed the cave man robotic skin.