Found a cool website with a lot of reviews and info on supplements

[Viper555]

www.bodybuildingforyou.com


Stumbled across this site when I did a search for info on NO2 and thought some of you guys might want to check it out. I've looked over some of it and it seems to have a lot of good info on it. Although I do have one question about something that was on it. I forgot where it was exactly but it said that taking in too much protein could cause severe damage to your liver. I was just curious as to how much protein you would need to take in to do something like that? Anyone got any idea?

[IronFist]

Cool site. I'm checking it out now. I know some people on here use Prolab's N-Large 2, myself included, so here's (http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/protein/n-large-2-review.htm) a link to their review of that.

Except I have to disagree with something they said:

wait... I can't highlight to copy and paste from their review. Does anyone else have that problem?

Anyway, they said that the chocolate and vanilla flavors taste good? Um... the vanila tastes nasty by itself. That's why I have to put lots of strawberries in it. I'm afraid to try any of the other flavors.

Also, they give a link to buy it at $50 for a 10lb tub. DPS nutrition has a 10lb tub for $40 or so after shipping.

Alright. Someone else see if they can't highlight there.

btw, this site seems to just be a review by what's listed in the ingredients. It's not actually testing the products to see if they meet label claims. I posted a link to a site that did that a few months ago or so, so search for it if you want to see it. They hadn't done many reviews when I posted it, tho.

[IronFist]

I wonder who runs that site. Some of it it almost sounds like it was written by someone in high school.

He says things like, "in one article I read," which makes it sound like it's one guy.

And then he says "...almost costed twice as much." Last time I checked, "costed" wasn't a word.

This is from the "Creatine powder vs. serum" page. He does, however, point out that he read some studies that said that creatine serum wasn't as stable as the powder, and that some samples tested contained more creatinine than creatine. That's good that he pointed it out, but I would have been more direct and said something like "Don't waste your money on creatine serum because it's less stable and potentially less potent as well as more expensive."

[IronFist]

How many posts can I make in a row in one thread? :D

He also says you're supposed to load creatine, so it doesn't seem like he's done too much research at all.

[IronFist]

omg!!! lol at this!!!!!!!!!!! (from this (http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/creatine/muscletech-cell-tech.htm) page)


(About Cell Tech)
"Of course they work, you'd be seriously mistaken to think MuscleTech would make something so expensive that doesn't deliver results."

^ ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So cost = effectiveness, huh?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahaha.

no.

At least he goes on to say that Cell Tech is "not really" worth the money.

[Viper555]

lol

Yeah, some of the things that he puts on their don't make much sense and make you wonder if he knows what hes talking about or not. I did agree with the NO2 review though since when I used to take it I got the same results as he said you would. Still curious as to how much protein you would have to take in to damage your liver severely? Wonder why he didn't go ahead and tell you when he wrote that?

[Viper555]

Quick question about the creatine, are you not supposed to load creatine? On all the creatine i've ever bought it says to load up for the first 5 days.

One other thing check out the beginners guide to supplementation and tell me what you think of the products he has listed there. I was think about getting some of the glutamine but im not sure if it's worth it or not.

BTW, I can't copy and paste from that site either.

[Viper555]

I just read their bodybuilding supplements 2 article and they had a review of protein bars in their. They start out telling you that most of the bars failed their test and had less protein or more carbs and fat then they claimed. The review then goes on to tell you where to buy protein bars and ends. :\ Why didn't he tell us which ones failed and which ones passed to back up this info? For all we know he could have just made that up.

[Viper555]

My 3 main questions about the supplements he has on his site are:

1)Is glutamine worth it?
2)Is Ribose worth it?
3)What do you think of Tribulus?

All of these were in his bodybuilding supplements article. He makes all of them sound great but has anyone here actually tried them? Do they really do what they're supposed to or is it just another gimick to get some quick cash?

[SevenStar]

They tell you to load creatine because they make more money off of you when you have to run and buy some more. You don't have to load - there's no scientific evidence that supports the thought that creatine loading is necessary for you to benefit from it. Actually, there was a study done somewhere that showed over a several month period of time that results were the same between the group that loaded and the group that didn't...without loading, maximum creatine levels will be reached in a few weeks.

[Viper555]

So I'm guessing there's no reason to cycle off of creatine for three weeks and then get back on it like it also suggests?

[IronFist]

Yeah, your body can't really use more than 5g of creatine per day. So if you load with 20-30g, you're just peeing out the extra 15-25g. Companies tell you do do this so you'll use a lot and run out quicker and then have to go buy more so they'll make more money.

Just start with 5g and take that every day throughout your cycle.

I don't know about cycling it. I've always heard you're supposed to. I don't know if creatine is naturally produced in the body or what. You'll have to ask someone else about that.

1)Is glutamine worth it?

I've heard studies that say glutamine supplmements do nothing at all for you. I forgot the source, tho, and I forgot how much they gave people for the test.

But the supplement companies want you to believe that glutamine helps reduce soreness, helps protein synthesis or something, and helps your immune system.

I'll see if I can find that info again.

2)Is Ribose worth it?

What's Ribose? Isn't that a sugar?

3)What do you think of Tribulus?

Again I don't remember exactly what I read, but I think I read that the tribulus supplements don't contain nearly enough tribulus to do anything. I read that about the Biotest product, so don't buy their stuff. I generally tell people to stay away from Biotest stuff because a lot of it is under dosed, and because I don't like their marketing and how t-mag.com tries to casually mention Biotest products in their articles. And also how their one guy (TC Luoma) said he was all huge and ripped and would never show a picture (except for a cartoon that was supposed to be him) and then when he finally posted a picture he was a skinny little dude. There's no problem with being skinny, but don't lie and say you're a ripped mass monster to sell products if you're not.

Back on subject.

He makes all of them sound great but has anyone here actually tried them? Do they really do what they're supposed to or is it just another gimick to get some quick cash?

Probably a gimmick. What are your goals? Chances are, the only supplement you might need would be protein powder, and only if your daily requirements are above what you can get from food naturally. Oh yeah, you should take a multivitamin, too!

If I come across the studies I mentioned I'll post them in this thread.

[IronFist]

btw, I think it's hilarious on that site how he has DIY (do it yourself) recipies for Muscle Tech products. Muscle Tech is such a ripoff!!! They take like creatine and sugar, combine it, give it a fancy sounding name like "advanced creatine transport system" or something and then jack up the price. That "advanced transport system" is simple sugar. You can get the same effect by mixing regular creatine in with fruit juice and save yourself like $60.

[Viper555]

http://bodybuildingforyou.com/supplements-reviews/d-ribose-supplements.htm


There's a link to the ribose article I read. It seems to do the exact same thing that creatine does but just goes about it a different way. It is also double the price. I was just wondering if maybe I missed something here considering that it cost so much more and has some hype behind it but appears to have the same outcome as creatine......

Anyway, the only supplements I use right now are creatine and 100 whey protein(and protein plus power bars). My goals right now are to get rid of my remaining body fat(ive gone from 17% to 8.5% in the last 6 weeks)and to put on about 10 more pounds of muscle in the next couple of months. I would also like to get my bench press up to about 300 by the end of the year but that's going to be a challenge.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Viper555
(ive gone from 17% to 8.5% in the last 6 weeks)

!! What was your weight before and after? Do you have pics? That's a pretty huge jump for only 6 weeks.

[Viper555]

Unfortunately all I have left is the after pics. Turns out that about 3 days ago my mom reformated the disk with the before pics on it because she didn't think I needed them. Talk about timing.

I think the reason I made such a big leap is because I wasn't on a diet before and I did almost no cardio. Basically I lifted weights and ate at pizza hut, mcdonalds, all those places. In week 1 I changed my diet to a low fat high protein high carb diet and started running a mile and a half 3 times a week. My diet stayed the same until week 4 but I started running 2 miles instead. About half way through week 4 I started a new diet with low carb low fat high protein(got help with it from Cheese Dog). In week 5 I started high intensity interval training to replace the LDR and that is where I noticed the fastest drop in body fat percentage. I would like to have in around 5-6% in a few more weeks and I think I just might be able to do it.

Heres what I was when I started:
17% BF
160lbs with 132lbs LBM
34.5in. waist

What I am right now:
8.5% BF
148lbs with 136lbs LBM
28.75in. waist

All I know is that a diet with low carbs, low fat, and high protein mixed with lifting weights and interval training works wonders. I would totally recommend the interval training to anyone who wants to drop some body fat quickly.

[SevenStar]

dayum - that's a pretty drastic change.

[SevenStar]

oh yeah, creatine is produced naturally by the body.

[blooming lotus]

could've sworn I've been soap boxing the same tune for a while..while some folks have sworn the sky is green. Glad you found something that works. How is easy is this ? Just watch fluids and electralites because when you're doing these types of regimes on low body fat over too longer a period, it could cause drama you don't want to have to deal with.

[Viper555]

I only plan on doing the interval training 3 times a week until I get to 5-6% BF. Once i'm there i'm just going to do it once a week to maintain it. I also have to run a mile and a half in ROTC every week so basically i'll only have to run twice a week. I've got two weeks of rest coming up here soon too where I don't do any strenious exercise at all.

BTW, I forgot to mention that I also stopped drinking soda altogether and started drinking 8-10 glasses of water a day.

[blooming lotus]

how do you feel fitness wise?you seriously believe that 1or2 x a week is gonna maintain that for you? well very cool...but you should try on the fitness and endurance you get from maintaining over longer periods....you're right...on low bf...it's gts toey...maybe nxt round ;)

[Viper555]

I'm not sure if it will or not. Would be nice though. If it doesn't i'll just bump it up again. Another thing is that I'll be lifting 4 times a week instead of 3 next cycle and in semptember i'm going to start taking BJJ(twice a week)so i'm hoping that with all of that one or two times a week of running will be enough.

As far as how I feel fitness wise, I feel great. I have way more energy then I used to and I'm probably in the best shape of all the people in the ROTC at my school(thats not saying too much though).

[IronFist]

"Maintaining" 5-6% bodyfat is a bad idea. It's also very hard to do.

[Viper555]

Why is it a bad idea? I have a friend who has an extremely high metabolism, guy eats nonstop, and hes been at 4% BF all of his life. He's got way more energy than me and never seems to get tired or anything. Seems to be extremely healthy.

[blooming lotus]

Iron, you are such an old school sceptic...i've gotta laugh...If it's not in your book..it just doesn't work and to hell with new information


don't bother, no matter what you tell he knows better anyway.....;) ;)

Lucky we have you Iron or we might succumb to this nasty new concept of gaining insight













:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

just so you know it's not all satirical bombasism, I have extremely low bf most of time, am smaller than most of the instructors I know and out cardio/endurance them every time...( except my army recruiting officer...LOL...that dude one was fit mofo) ...and usually without breaking a sweat.....



:D

[IronFist]

^ :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing pics of you guys at "5-6%" bodyfat. It's not that most people can't get low bodyfat, it's just that their estimate of the percentage is wrong. All the time I hear people say "oh, I was at 1% for this competition" or "yeah my friend gets down to 2.5% bodyfat for the stage." Geez. No they don't. You know who has 1% bodyfat? A cadaver. :rolleyes:

Guess what, if you're calipers or scale tells you that you're at 6% bodyfat, you're probably not. If you bother to go get hydrostatically weighed in the big water tank and THAT tells you you are 6%, THEN I will listen to you.

This (http://www.bodybuildinglive.com/articles/pics/200208_comp_hamdullah2.jpg) is what 5-6% looks like. Good luck getting there, much less maintaining that.

Viper555 said:

and hes been at 4% BF all of his life.

He must be pretty sick then. At 4% bodyfat you'd have all sorts of problems, especially if you maintained it for any length of time.

Anyway, I'm done.

[Viper555]

Well he has been and he's had no problems so far. He pretty much looks like the dude in the pic(not as big though) where you can see all the details of each and every muscle. It's kind of annoying though that he doesn't even have to work for it though.

[blooming lotus]

I am at the moment post 3 hard mths sars-like recovery...and just getting back to full routine...but I do have a pic I dug up..just taking it easy in the pic...but you can (if you look closely) see my at the time very ripped mid. I stand by my comments and normally maintain ther-ish...but in fairness and for max health sake..I gotta admit...a small % raise and cushoin can be a very beautiful thing!!

I'll be back with the snap 'ron ;)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
but you can (if you look closely) see my at the time very ripped mid.

I'm sorry, did you forget to attach the pic or something?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
beautiful thing!!

I'll be back with the snap 'ron ;)

....as in lateron

I'm a busy gal...you can expect it...;)

[IronFist]

Oh. I misread your post as I'll be "right back." Oops.

[blooming lotus]

ok one more...for arms sake and doing daughter justice :D

[Toby]

That you in the front? j/k. Full marks for having the guts (no pun intended) to post a pic.

[blooming lotus]

tempted to delete it ...but i'll stand anyway;)
... remember though, it was for discussion on body fat and training methods...

Iron...I think now in considering antagonist vs agonist muscluar development in ab training, may explain earlier argument

[IronFist]

I see you took down one of the pics.

Looking at the pics, and I can really only see your arms, you look like you're like me in the sense that you couldn't get fat even if you tried (knock on wood). Unless you're anorexic, your low bodyfat level looks genetic (as opposed to being the result of a diet). I'm saying this in part because of your thin wrists and fingers. People who naturally carry weight tend to have thick wrists and fingers, regardless of where their body fat levels are currently at. Your anterior (front) deltoid is also visible in the bottom pic.

Anyway, about our previous conversation of what causes abdominal definition, in your case pretty much anything you do will allow your abs to show (since you can't see them in the pic, I'm assuming they are visible since before you said they were), as you're an ectomorph and have naturally low bodyfat levels. Basically, your abs are visible because of that, and not because of the ab work you do. So, if you do your thousands of reps per day, or even if you went down to 2 sets of 5 reps per week, they would still be visible.

And none of that changes the fact that high repetitions have absolutely nothing to do with fat loss or definition. :D


Iron...I think now in considering antagonist vs agonist muscluar development in ab training, may explain earlier argument

Which muscles are you referring to? Do you know what the antagonist muscle of the rectus abdominus is?

I'm at least impressed that you actually posted pics, which was reduced to a pic, because before you were all (paraphrased) "I'm a model I charge people to look at me (etc.)" :D :p

[blooming lotus]

I never said I charge them, I said they pay me alot to do it ;)

High reps = cardio workout which speeds up metabolism, burns fat and leads to fat loss :D

Ps. Naturally low bf my A*s...LOL.....Do you know how hard I work to look like that?!? Nice try though :p

Re : rectus abdominus & antagonist. To be honest...no..I can't tell you the antagonist, however I'm pretty sure that because I train the way I do ( and this is what I mean by angles and varied vertibrae, speeds, range etc), I am hitting those antagonists every session and end up with more wholistic muscular developement? ......and consequentially higher cross-muscular force generation and utilise more energy and muscular potential per kg....as oppose to straight crunches where dynamics are focus on tranverse with less angular range....???

Ps. 1st pic deletion was an accident (oops)

[IronFist]

High reps = cardio workout which speeds up metabolism, burns fat and leads to fat loss


No. But you can keep thinking that. :D
edit - doing more reps is obviously more "cardio" than doing low reps, but doing a lot of reps of crunches or whatever can hardly be considered a "cardio" exercise.


Ps. Naturally low bf my A*s...LOL.....Do you know how hard I work to look like that?!? Nice try though

Ok. I was just going by your arm. Most people with thin wrists can't get fat. Or maybe you're the exception.

You're not hitting antagonist muscles to the abs by doing crunches. They would require seperate back work. I don't know what your workout looks like.


I am hitting those antagonists every session and end up with more wholistic muscular developement?

If by "more wholistic muscular development" you mean "working more muscles," then yes, you might be.


......and consequentially higher cross-muscular force generation and utilise more energy and muscular potential per kg....as oppose to straight crunches where dynamics are focus on tranverse with less angular range....???

Uh, yeah.

n/m. I just deleted a bunch of stuff that I wrote. Why don't you post your ab routine and I'll tell you if you're working any antagonist muscles or not.


. 1st pic deletion was an accident (oops)

oooookay... not that it matters, but the small boxes you have to check to delete a post make it kind of hard to do so accidently.

[Toby]

Originally posted by IronFist
Most people with thin wrists can't get fat.I've got thin wrists ;). Your theory sucks :mad: :D.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
I've got thin wrists ;). Your theory sucks :mad: :D.

Really? Ok maybe I'm totally off on that. That was just my own theory based on what I've seen. Most people I've seen who used to be fat and lost a lot of weight still kind have big wrists. Like if you pinch the skin on their wrists it's still pretty thick as opposed to being mostly skin that you pull up.

I guess I was wrong?

[Toby]

No, you're probably right. I know what you mean, anyway. I've got skinny wrists, but due to bone structure and genetics, not being skinny or fat. I'm not fat, really ;). BMI (yeah, I know) of 26.9ish.

[blooming lotus]

Ok..here's the ab routine but you realise that this is highly sensitive information and I may have to kill you after you've read it?...here goes

I do 2 hrs or 3000 reps on an ab-doer..consisting of lateral, rotational and linear movements at different speeds, tensions and vertabral stress points from laying to crunched positions , arms/shoulders extended palms out, down, twisted and up... for maybe reps of 200 intense speed to up to 500 slower....incorperating as much oblique and back action as possible...then I flip over on front, extend legs ...toes/ flT OF FOOT DOWN aND do leg raises at different angles etc....then I do decline push-up and chest raises from same pos...then flip back and 1 & 2 leg raises at angles pending what I feel I missed first time round. Then I would normally get into a few hrs of boxing ( hand and foot strike work)...and then often go to floor for more of same-ish sorta-work :D :D :D

do you think I got em?????:p

[IronFist]

I do 2 hrs or 3000 reps on an ab-doer..

lol omg!! :rolleyes:


then I flip over on front, extend legs ...toes/ flT OF FOOT DOWN aND do leg raises at different angles etc....

I don't quite understand that part in the middle there.


do you think I got em?????

Probably not. Ab work doesn't hit the back muscles unless you do it really, really wrong, in which case you're setting yourself up for injury.

I think you need to rethink your ab workouts. Your abs are visible in spite of your workout, not because of it.

The "World's Fittest Man" or whatever can do like 5,000 or 10,000 crunches at once or something like that he doesn't even have a sixpack. Unless you're training to beat him, there's no reason to do 2 hours of crunches.

[blooming lotus]

Your comments are the funniest thing I've ever heard.......


well recently anyway ;) ... You are obviously STILL not getting what I'm explaining to you...maybe we need to hook up trade demos ....guarantee i'll have you convinced by the time we split ;)

LOL...

:p

[D_Messenger]

Mrs. Lotus, what Mr. Fist is saying is
to get stronger abs -> and to do hypertrofy on them (sorry if i misspelled) you gotta do hard exercise, heavy exercise with few repetitions basicly
AND also that if you wanna do something of cardio nature to show your muscles by removing the fat -> there are plenty more effective of a higher and more intense cardio nature exercises that will burn more fat than doing 3000 reps of that stuff you said.

[Toby]

BL, how do you have the time to do all that? I wouldn't want to (IMHO) waste 2 hrs just on one exercise when there were other things I could be doing. Anyway, props to you for having the mental strength to do it. How long have you been doing it? Bored yet?


Iron, I think she means the plank position, then raising legs alternately. I used to do those, with leg and arm raises. One leg, one arm, then diagonally opposite legs and arms together.

[blooming lotus]

how long? yrs dude. bored? Never!

Actually what I meant was that the ab-doer (not sure if your familiar with it) is a seated piece of apparatus. After first pt sess, flip with mid-lower abdomin supported on seat, arms extended front, legs hyperextended to back (feet on handles for extra resistance) then alternatively incline and decline, pulse, etc. I also use this for bis and tris (extentions and curls etc) , also laying flat, only lower back supported on seat doing bent leg inclines and declines using handle to support and add resistance. The reason I do this and for so long is because being so tiny, if I do a high resistence workout using weights, I get extremely massed extremely quickly. I hate that and it opposes my objectives, so this way I get to have my resistence but without the weights...even though in alot of ma training, at least half of my my form training and other is done slowly and resistence present anyway. I was watching (lol) an early morning fitness show this morning andthey were demonstrating excercises laying on front doing arm and leg extensions and a particular type of crunch that was aiming to hit both transverse abdominals, and rectus abdominals as well as other lower back muscles. Iron says it isn't so, they say it is, I say it is...so as far as I'm concerned, the I's have it .....whatever works for you ha ;)

[Viper555]

Jesus christ........how often do you do that?

[blooming lotus]

up to twice a day some days...but genereally at least once. It's a good resaon to spend time in front of the tv...I just keep forgetting to watch :D

[Viper555]

My abs cramp just thinking about that

Props to you for being able to keep something like that going for such a long time.

[Toby]

Oh, sorry, I've never seen an ab-doer. I've always tuned out when the ads come on :D.

Blooming, just one more point - strength workouts with weights don't build mass. Volume of reps builds mass. I've got an Ironmind catalogue with some awesome pics in it of Olympic lifters. Most of those guys aren't big at all, except the heavy divisions. Certainly don't look like they could lift the weights they do. Heard of the PTP workout that a few of us do? 2 sets of 4-6 reps on each exercise, done every day. Not going to build any size on that.

[IronFist]

lol @ this thread.

For the last time, high reps of abs does not equal cardio.


I get extremely massed extremely quickly

Doubtful. Why do I say this?

1. Because 99.9% of MEN do not gain muscle easily.

2. Men have like 20 times the testosterone of women.

3. You are a woman.

4. Gaining muscle is as much a function of diet as it is of the proper type of training.

5. From looking at your pictures, you are not following a bodybuilder type diet.

Therefore, you do not gain muscle easily.

Don't confuse a pump (when a muscle temporarily fills with blood while training and gets bigger) with it actually getting bigger. People get pumps all the time when they're doing 4-15 reps on a set. It's not your muscle growing. It's your muscle filling with blood to help accomodate for all the extra work you're making it do. Newbies confuse this with muscle growth. It goes away in a few hours.

[blooming lotus]

LOL back at chya :D :D ....

:rolleyes:

Listen Iron, I know my body ok, I know how it responds to what is done to it.......but thx for the chat :cool:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
Oh, sorry, I've never seen an ab-doer. I've always tuned out when the ads come on :D.

Blooming, just one more point - strength workouts with weights don't build mass. Volume of reps builds mass. I've got an Ironmind catalogue with some awesome pics in it of Olympic lifters. Most of those guys aren't big at all, except the heavy divisions. Certainly don't look like they could lift the weights they do. Heard of the PTP workout that a few of us do? 2 sets of 4-6 reps on each exercise, done every day. Not going to build any size on that.

Im sorry ...i missed that :o :D

Now that sounds like something I could use...as far Iron telling me heavey weights won't gain me muscle....welll thats just rediculous...isn't that why folks lift weights?...I am a qualified pt and intsructor myself.........IRoN, Your commenta was silly !!!!!!!!!

[Toby]

BL, the PTP workout (and other strength workouts) are more about training your mind and body than building size. This is really material for a new thread, but PTP is based on the idea of training your neurological efficiency. It's your brain that holds you back from making big lifts. The example that's given is when you hear (urban myths?) stories of people with temporary superhuman strength, like women lifting something heavy to save their child etc. Apparently regular people use only 20-30% of their potential strength with our natural "circuit breakers" stopping us from going further to prevent injury. PTP is about training the "circuit breakers" to let you lift more. Nothing about size increase at all. I don't have any links to online pics of some of the kind of people I mentioned in my last post, but I'll bet Iron does.

[IronFist]

Even tho I said I was done with this thread...




Originally posted by blooming lotus
Now that sounds like something I could use...as far Iron telling me heavey weights won't gain me muscle....welll thats just rediculous...isn't that why folks lift weights?

Lifting heavy weights doesn't = gains in mass.

They key to gaining muscle size is the correct amount of VOLUME, not weight. Weight is important, but it's not the key. Volume = weight x reps x sets.

Here's a quick lesson in physiology. Pay attention.

(note: xRM = x rep max = a weight you can only lift x times)

(Low volume)
Heavy weights (1-6RM) + few reps (1-6) + few sets (2) + long rest between sets (3-10 min) = Vastly increased strength with no gain in muscle size. Poor endurance.

(High volume)
Heavy weights (1-6RM) + few reps (1-6) + many sets (5-20) + short rest between sets (1-2min) = Increased strength and some muscle size gain. A little better endurance than the previous one, but still not very good.

(Low-medium Volume)
Pretty heavy weights (6-12RM) + moderate reps (6-12) + few sets = marginal gains all around, not very good for anything really.

(High Volume)
Pretty heavy weights (6-12RM) + moderate reps (6-12) + medium sets (5-8) + short rest between sets = Good size gains and alright strength gains. Pretty good endurance gains.

(High working volume, but the weight is too low to do anything)
Light weights (12+RM) + anything = increased endurance in that motion = generally speaking, useless for any practical type of training, unless you're entering a contest to see who can do the most lightweight reps of an exercise.

^ Of course all of that is grossly generalized, but you get the point.


...I am a qualified pt and intsructor myself.........IRoN, Your commenta was silly !!!!!!!!!

Great. Me too. What does that mean? Nothing. If you're in the industry you should know that 99% of trainers out there don't know what they're talking about most of the time.

As for you ab exercise machine, I don't know anything about it so I don't know what muscles you're working or not. All of ab gadgets I've seen on TV have been completely worthless tho (worthless in the sense that they don't let you do anything you couldn't do without them).

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
I don't have any links to online pics of some of the kind of people I mentioned in my last post, but I'll bet Iron does.

I don't have any right now, but the simple fact that a 140lb guy can deadlift over 500 pounds should prove to anyone that training heavy weights doesn't automatically make you big.

[blooming lotus]

LOL...you know dude, I think i'm just going to have to let this one go and agree to disagree.....I realy DONT have the rest of my freakin life to argue it out...and since you've pointed it out, ahha, have come to know alot of personal trainers and instructors are most definately ful-of-sh*t and clueless to boot ;) ;) hey, at least we agree on something right :p

[Viper555]

BL, everything that Iron said about weights is true. Give it a go yourself if you don't believe him. I've done all of those at one point or another and have had the same results as what he says you will. I think you may be misunderstanding what he is saying. He's not saying that a powerlifter wont gain any muscle, they do gain some but they don't get as big as someone who does a hypertrophy weightlifting program. So basically what he said was:

Hypertrophy= Bigger muscles with low strength gains
Powerlifting= More strength but slower muscle growth and smaller muscles

You can argue against it all you want but if you go and try those I'm willing to bet you will get the results he said you would(unless there is something physically wrong with you).

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Viper555
He's not saying that a powerlifter wont gain any muscle, they do gain some but they don't get as big as someone who does a hypertrophy weightlifting program.

Actually, once they're past the "initial growth phase" or whatever, it is possible for a powerlifter to not gain any mass. Ok, not gain any SUBSTANTIAL mass.

Remember mass gains come from diet.

It doesn't matter if you're on the perfect bodybuilding weight lifting program... if you don't eat right you won't grow.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
.
Remember mass gains come from diet.

It doesn't matter if you're on the perfect bodybuilding weight lifting program... if you don't eat right you won't grow.


now you're onto it :D ...I was wondering when you were going to bring up diet?......ok...so if I was to trade part of any of my cardio workouts for a high resistance, low rep workout A. my body would be needing different fuel, B. My metabolism would change and C. I WOULD GAIN MUSCLE MASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:p

and because I was comprimising on what I already know to be a good wholistic developement programme, I would according to the way it's currently geared...comprimise my game ;)

[IronFist]

now you're onto it ...I was wondering when you were going to bring up diet?....

Eh? I've been saying for years on this forum that you won't gain any mass without the proper diet.


so if I was to trade part of any of my cardio workouts for a high resistance, low rep workout A. my body would be needing different fuel,
Perhaps


B. My metabolism would change and

Probably. When you say "Cardio workouts" do you mean actual cardio? Or do you mean your 2 hours of ab exercises? If you mean actual cardio, then your metabolism would change. If you mean your 2 hours of ab exercises, then no, it wouldn't change very much at all.


C. I WOULD GAIN MUSCLE MASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No. Especially not with a low rep weight workout like you mentioned above, unless you're doing very high sets to keep the volume up. But you didn't list numbers for the amount of reps or sets so I don't know exactly what you mean.

[Pork Chop]

Been watching this thread and have been reluctant to say anything because I guess I would be considered a "fatbody" by a lot of people.

The one thing I'd like to interject is a bit of personal experience. At the end of a lot of my boxing workouts we "do abs". I mostly do them because it's a nice, little, relaxing cool down at the end of the workout and I'm not the type to skip out on exercises unless I just can't do them.

Our ab workouts range anywhere from 50 to 100 reps per exercise, around 7 exercises, done nonstop. The 10 or so minutes doing that might not compare to 2 hours of it, but it's pretty high rep.

I can keep up with the other guys in the gym most who have that six pack, and outlast a few of them. I do this pretty regularly; so it's not like a one time thing.

I gotta back up Iron's position that it's not that aerobically taxing, doesn't do too much for actual ab strength, or ab definition. I can't really speculate on 2 hours worth of it, but the number of muscles those exercises hit isn't all that large. An efficient exercise: burning the most calories over a period of time, would incorporate a lot of muscles.

If I had 2 extra hours to work cardio & definition every day; I'd spend it on the elliptical crosstrainer, either doing interval type work on a high setting or just cruising on a medium level.

Given that; if I made one lasting change that was geared to improving my definition, it would be refining my diet to a "T".

Oh yah, I also have to back up the "genetics excuse". I know plenty of people who eat more than I do, work out a whole lot less (if at all), and have much "fitter" looking bodies.

The viewpoint that looks down on "fatbodies" if they don't meet that Men's health ideal of shredded abs and a 28 inch waist is a bit .... angering. As if appearance dictated performance; and if you don't look good you're "worthless".

If these body "standards" were true, then every guy out there with rippling abs and a bodyfat %age under 15 should be able to destroy me at every speed & endurance related athletic endeavor, and that's just not the case.

In the meantime I'm just going to do what I can to improve my athletic performance and aesthic appearance; trying not to waste my time giving credence to people who think I'm "worthless" and "weak" because I won't be in any underwear ads.

[blooming lotus]

dude, no-one here is caling anyone worthless OR weak. :rolleyes: we are discussing the alternate ways to train and respective benifits.....no offence to the fatboyz...just run my better lean ;) and you're right...the trained opponent gererally (unless he sucks) will nearly always have the upper and against the rest of the population:p

last call on abs....
when I work out, I work right through the serratus anterior, external oblique, rectus abdominus/transverse abdominus and bring as much pelvic diaphragmic utilisation into the repetoire as possible. I also train using interval intensity variation. I have no idea of how a person could target more core.....again, asthetic value side-effect

Now on the weight regime and added mass issue, one more time for Iron......

while I don't really have any personal need to continue this conversation I do feel that you deserve and would appreciate the opportunity to voice your knowledge....

Firstly, the cardio that I would need to trade time off on is things like boxing, skipping, aerobics, and footwork etc......I still disagree with your theory that ab-workout isn't cardio, but then again you're not here to witness and can't quite comprehend so it's irrelevant......

The weight workout I was refferring to is:

3x sets of 15-12-8 + 1 at max

If I were doing weights, I would like to stay balanced and proportioned so I would go bench, lats, tricep flys/extensions, traps or shoulder raises, hammy curls/weighted glute contractions/ weighted pulley aductor extensions, calf raises/lifts, and whatever else I felt was needed for the days balance or objective......

Really Iron, been there done that workout however according to your personal objectives, I have no doubt it could increase your perfprmance and may be worth incorperating....I prefer to go high cardio though because otherwise I'm needing more protein for recovery and more carbed building material....= more mass !!!!!!!!!!:D.....besides...who's got time to eat that much????!!!!!

Until I hit Shaolin/dengfeng, I'm pretty happy wth what I have cheers

;)

[IronFist]

Bmore Banga said:

In the meantime I'm just going to do what I can to improve my athletic performance and aesthic appearance; trying not to waste my time giving credence to people who think I'm "worthless" and "weak" because I won't be in any underwear ads.

I know a lot of people who have more bodyfat than me and are in better shape, too :D You're right. Apperance does not equal ability.

Blooming Lotus said:

.....besides...who's got time to eat that much????!!!!!


I know how you could free up about 2 more hours for eating :D

As long as what you're doing works for you, that's good. I just think that you could free up 2 more hours in you day because your not going to lose any conditioning or anything by reducing your huge ab workout.

When I was a freshman in high school I used to do 400 crunches per day (not much compared to your workout) because I thought that's what you needed to do to get a six pack. I eventually got visible abs, but it had nothing to do with my 400 crunches a day. Of course, that was 8 years ago and now my only ab work comes from heavy deadlifting, squatting, and benching, and I still have visible abs (knock on wood).

[blooming lotus]

LOL@losing the ab routine


I know alot of peeps can spend hrs doig abs for very little benifit, I used to be one of those folks.....explore the abdoer and get creative...then come back and we'll chat
:p :D :cool:

[shaolin kungfu]

I thought visible abs were more a result of low body fat. I mean, some of my friends that don't work out at all have visible abs, simply because they're skinny. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[Toby]

You're 100% right.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
I thought visible abs were more a result of low body fat.

That's correct.

[Pork Chop]

Wasn't pointing the finger at anybody with my statements, I was just covering my viewpoints on the issue as a whole.

The statement goes back to people who rush to say "that guy ain't got abs, so he can't know what he's talking about". Kinda like how John Baystyles (sp?) gets so many people buying his videos, while you'd have a hard time convincing someone who didn't already know to get into John Davies.

Abdoer sounds a lot more involved than your typical ab calisthenic (crunches, bicycles, leg lifts, etc). I'll definitely give it a look if I get the opportunity.

Skipping rope is one of those things I don't count as strictly cardio because it has so many benefits that carry over to the skills outside of just improving aerobic capacity & burning calories. I tend to lump stuff like jogging, biking, & elliptical in that category. Same with other calisthenics like burpies/squat thrusts, pushups, mountain climbers, & explosive squats- while I would consider making a seperate workout for those exercises, I usually only work them in the context of the class/fight workout.

I like this back and forth and I'd like to think I'm pretty open minded to both sides. If what you're doing's working for yah, keep at it. :)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by BMore Banga

The statement goes back to people who rush to say "that guy ain't got abs, so he can't know what he's talking about". Kinda like how John Baystyles (sp?) gets so many people buying his videos, while you'd have a hard time convincing someone who didn't already know to get into John Davies.


I like to blame that as the reason why commercial gyms won't hire me as a personal trainer. The average person associates huge bodybuilders with fitness knowledge. Since I'm not a huge bodybuilder I must not know anything. :rolleyes:

I swear tho, I see trainers making people do THE STUPIDEST THINGS!!!!!!!!!!! wtf is that all about?

[blooming lotus]

...like 2hr ab workouts :D

seriously though, people have different ideas of what health and fitness is and how to achieve it...they're not neccessarily wrong, they're just creating different "pictures"

[IronFist]

Yeah, but how helpful can improper instruction and useless exercises be?