For Whom DO You TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!

[DeathTouch]

I started this thread because i would like some input on why some people train is it for themselves or because they are so entertained by old martial folklore and great dragon Taming masters. Many Kwoons Which i have visited in the past have begun their presentation of the school by sitting me down and showing me pictures of themselves performing and their late masters and their lineage and so forth I call these Sifu's -"pimps". Because they use martial arts as their Prostitute to make money. I mean I understand the importance of history and all but if someone is looking to join your school what should matter is how good your training is not who you trained with. Cuz truly i dont care what the previous generation can do i want to know what you can do and how well can you do it. SO many sifu's today act as pimps sitting behind their desk raking in the cash and no longer training but then walk into places demanding respect i say beware of the arm chair warriors.

[DeathTouch]

I would like to know if anyone's Sifu goes out on the floor and works out with them and if not have you wondered WHY NOT? I know mines does and spars with all of us as well.

[Chief Fox]

My sifu leads and participates in the entire class.

[Losttrak]

Its hard to find a teacher that isnt a martial arts pimp. The real deal prolly wouldnt consider teaching a class larger than five. Just my opinion.

[Ironwind]

My instructor/family train with me all the time.
When me and my trainer visit other schools he sometimes trick me into challenging other students of the school we visit.
i dont count those as actual confrontations unless it's more than one opponent I dont think it would be fair to count the sparring one on one's.
When me and my instructor demonstrate we start off with slow motions, then we attack with quicker movements as we go along until finally I meet my top speed and he oblitertes me with combos and the throws are so fast I have no time to counter.

[Ironwind]

Myself I guess, if not for me then for my curiosity to see how far I can go.

[David Jamieson]

DT-

how about this...

who cares what you think.

who cares what you do.

you come across like a little obnoxious loudmouth.

pimp that baby :D

cheers

[DeathTouch]

Hey Lost Track,

Your Right old school Sifu's do keep the class small my class started with 28 on the first day and drowned out to 4, that was 15 years ago. Now when i teach i also teach a small class but even being with my sifu so long he still destroys me thats why i have so much respect for those sifu's who reallly train.


P.S. Kung Lick A** (Mr. Jamieson) I am entitled to post and display my opinion if u dont like it dont respond I also have your sifu's phone number so watch your mouth boy. I also have seen your pics on the net your kung fu needs all the work it can so stop typing and start training pimp.

[David Jamieson]

anytime jersey girl.

you don't frighten me, but your poor attitude and mouthiness are even less desirable. lol!

what are you gonna do? call my sifu? hahahahahaha.
I don't think it would matter to him that I think you have a poor attitude.

cheers

[anton]

Given all the bs artists, who think they're good enough to make up their own styles after watching a few videos (eg. http://monstermartialarts.com/index.html) I think I'd be the first to ask for a styles lineage/history if I was looking for an art to learn.

[blooming lotus]

he's got a point...if a sifu's not prepared to spar...bl's not a happy student ....

but then again....when it comes to old internal practioner sufi's....external practice is kinda unneccessary


sorry boys...calling a draw :cool:

[neit]

i train for myself.

[WinterPalm]

Initially I trained for myself and to gain self defense. Now I train to learn more about martial arts, the techniques, the movements, the mindsets, I wish to understand these concepts my teacher gives me and make them a part of me. Right now I also train Lion Dance so that means being a part of a team, representing my Sifu's Sifu, my Sifu, the kwoon, and myself. With that in mind, I am training because many others were allowed to learn once what I am learning and were lucky enough to become Sifu themselves. By passing down a system as intricate and in-depth as kung fu, by acquiring that system, and then passing it down to new students, such as myself, you are passing down a part of every Sifu that came before your teacher. This means that it is a knowledge one person originally created, passed onto the next person considering them worthy enough of knowing, that person in turn added their flair while maintaining the originality and through this selection process, only the students seen as capable of this were given the system.

So, in this regard, the martial art itself is bigger than everyone who practices it because it is a piece of every Sifu that came before yours. We all know the hours, days, weeks, and months (I'm not at the point where years are a factor, still young), it takes to learn a form, practice and perform it with some proficency. NEver mind learning all the details! That takes years and so when someone is teaching you, that's years of their life you're looking at, and I think you better understand that and respect that because the dedication necessary is scary, to me anyway.

I don't think confrontation should play a place here but don't you care about your own presentation Kung Lek? OR maybe what your Sifu thinks about you?

[David Jamieson]

wp-

Why would I be concerned?

I'm ok with it whatever it is.

cheers

[Fu-Pau]

I train diligently so as to conform to DeathTouch's individual view of what a kung fu practitioner should be. In fact, that is exactly what I have dedicated the last 17 years of my life to... that and being 'accepted' on an internet bulletin board...
:rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by anton
Given all the bs artists, who think they're good enough to make up their own styles after watching a few videos (eg. http://monstermartialarts.com/index.html) I think I'd be the first to ask for a styles lineage/history if I was looking for an art to learn.

lineage can be faked - how many people follow up on it to verify? Newbies who are looking to get into MA have no clue who any of these "masters" are...

Also, being in a good lineage doesn't necessarily mean much. What if your sifu can't teach well? what if he decides to McKwoon his school? I'd worry less about the lineage and more about his product - what are his students like?

[SevenStar]

I train for me. I like to compete - it keeps me on my toes and forces me to work harder, and gives me a means of continually testing myself.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar


lineage can be faked - how many people follow up on it to verify?

good question!!!!

How many people here always always look into sufi lineage?


Also on KL and his presentation......not just being a fan, but the guy posts a clip and regardless of other argument attatched to that...he presents well and from what I can judge a sh/* load better than other idiots who've posted similar and got hero wraps. :eek:

What exactly is your problem? is it because the guy has a better body...or cause he's prettier? LOL...you guys amuse me :rolleyes:

[anton]

Originally posted by SevenStar


lineage can be faked - how many people follow up on it to verify? Newbies who are looking to get into MA have no clue who any of these "masters" are...

Also, being in a good lineage doesn't necessarily mean much. What if your sifu can't teach well? what if he decides to McKwoon his school? I'd worry less about the lineage and more about his product - what are his students like?

I think you've charp choi'd the correct in the trachea there. PerhapsI should alter my statement, the validity of the arts purported history would be the second thing I check after watching the training and being satisfied with both the teaching and the effectiveness of the art. It is still important to me that the guy didn't just throw some kempo and karate moves together with what he's seen in HK action flicks and called it Shaolin kung fu... Granted this is not important to everyone, and there is nothing wrong with that. A credible lineage/history is certainly not the be-all, end-all. But to me it is also important.

[Shaolinlueb]

my sifu shows us a combination or basic once or twice and we do it. if we cant get it then he does it agian. if we don't see the little details he'll explain it. believe it or not i like the way. it allows you to recognize stuff more and easier and the applications and such.

[blooming lotus]

Before I even CONSIDER studying undersomeone, I wanna know his/her lineage ....aqnd or sufis lineage...I wanna know WHERE they studyied and under what conditions...then I wanna know what their personal m/a talents and speciality skills are...and if it's it's cma then I wanna see them not comprimise their beliefs ( and therefore wude).....and that's before I'll even sign up....

traditionalist diehard...sue me ;)

[DeathTouch]

I was gone for a few days due to a snow storm we got hit with the other night, but i just want to thank those of you who kindly stated your opinion it brought a lot of insight to hear different aspects on why we train please continue posting.

P.S. Yo Yo Hip Hop Mogul Kung Lack, im sorry you have a problem with my postings but tough titties bro i hope you grow up god bless...

[WinterPalm]

Kung Lek-You do not care about what your Sifu thinks of you? Does it not bother you that he is 'dissapointed' with the way you turned out. I believe people are not dissapointed with things that succed and therefore, dissapointed means you are a failure to the person that gave you your knowledge, if not then at least your base from which you've been allowed to blossom but have instead withered.

What's next, you don't care what your mother thinks about you? Your father? Your wife or girlfriend, siblings, friends? Then what, do you even care about how you present yourself? It seems like you are headed to a place where nobody matters because they are wrong and you are right. That means everybody and then, well, you'll be by yourself, no one to question you, teach you or even act as a friend, but you'll still be a tough guy on the forum.

What is going to happen if you decide to one day teach and the person want's to know about your lineage? Are you going to explain to them who your Sifu is? They may or may not research it and contact him but if they do, do you think they'll come back?

I don't wish to be mean to you, but these things seem in need of being said, I imagine you are quite dedicated and maybe in time you'll cool your ego and perhaps reconsider your life, or not. It doesn't matter to me but to say you don't care what your Sifu thinks of you is just dumb. That's your Sifu, man! Without our roots what do we have? Maybe a potted plant in the closet, at best.

[David Jamieson]

Kung Lek-You do not care about what your Sifu thinks of you? Does it not bother you that he is 'dissapointed' with the way you turned out. I believe people are not dissapointed with things that succed and therefore, dissapointed means you are a failure to the person that gave you your knowledge, if not then at least your base from which you've been allowed to blossom but have instead withered.

What's next, you don't care what your mother thinks about you? Your father? Your wife or girlfriend, siblings, friends? Then what, do you even care about how you present yourself? It seems like you are headed to a place where nobody matters because they are wrong and you are right. That means everybody and then, well, you'll be by yourself, no one to question you, teach you or even act as a friend, but you'll still be a tough guy on the forum.

What is going to happen if you decide to one day teach and the person want's to know about your lineage? Are you going to explain to them who your Sifu is? They may or may not research it and contact him but if they do, do you think they'll come back?

I don't wish to be mean to you, but these things seem in need of being said, I imagine you are quite dedicated and maybe in time you'll cool your ego and perhaps reconsider your life, or not. It doesn't matter to me but to say you don't care what your Sifu thinks of you is just dumb. That's your Sifu, man! Without our roots what do we have? Maybe a potted plant in the closet, at best.


Dude, what's between me and sifu is between me and sifu. Period.

And I think that if you spend your entire life concerned about what others think of you then you are wasting your time and energies.

You are the only one who feels a "need" to say anything about it and that is your issue younger brother, not mine. Sifu and I have spoken, that's all there is to say about it really.

A public forum is entirely an innapropriate place to bring these things up. And from what base do you know the story anyway? Have you talked to me? No.

regards. and be careful not to make assumptions about me or any of your older brothers from the kwoon you are at.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Since this has bee brought to my attention...I will be replying to it.

GHD

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Kung Lek



Dude, what's between me and sifu is between me and sifu. Period.

And I think that if you spend your entire life concerned about what others think of you then you are wasting your time and energies.

You are the only one who feels a "need" to say anything about it and that is your issue younger brother, not mine. Sifu and I have spoken, that's all there is to say about it really.

A public forum is entirely an innapropriate place to bring these things up. And from what base do you know the story anyway? Have you talked to me? No.

regards. and be careful not to make assumptions about me or any of your older brothers from the kwoon you are at.

exactly..and unless you are prepared to declare yourself champion, produce your belts and put them up for challenge..you probably use some work yourself...but when does a person know so much that there's no room for betterment?....Realism ha ;)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek



Dude, what's between me and sifu is between me and sifu. Period.
Not so.


You are the only one who feels a "need" to say anything about it and that is your issue younger brother, not mine. Sifu and I have spoken, that's all there is to say about it really.
We have not spoken. I did receive an email from you and after reading the first line, I found it to be obnoxious and to which I did not bother to reply to, but we have not spoken. To be an older brother to WP...you have to be a member of the Kwoon and in good standing with myself as Sifu.
WP has an issue due to your actions.


A public forum is entirely an innapropriate place to bring these things up. And from what base do you know the story anyway? Have you talked to me? No.
You say that...yet you reply in public. WP's base is from this forum and your postings as well as from myself...and I am accurate in relaying information. One is only afraid to air laundry if it is dirty. Mine is not...so I have no problem.


regards. and be careful not to make assumptions about me or any of your older brothers from the kwoon you are at.
WP has made no assumptions.

GHD

[Yum Cha]

Interesting perspective developing here.

My first Sifu was a legend in Sydney's Chinatown. He had more titles than most Chinese masters, which is saying a lot, as titles amongst these men multiply with age like liverspots. The most notable as I revew his old card was "Permanent Honorary President of the HK Chinese Martial Arts Association ltd." He taught me for 4 years as bowel cancer took hold of him, he died 4 years later, after retirement at about 65 or so. He trained us one on one, as did our older brothers, as we did our younger brothers. He never sparred with us, so you reckon we got ripped off?

The question, "For whom do you train?" can be answered in a number of ways, but if you train for anyone but yourself, you deserve what you get.

Likewise, if you train for yourself, you deserve what you get.

Yes, one deserving lot of athletes we are. For all your training, what do you learn?

Isn't this really just another hormone loaded discussion about the virtues of sparring versus non-sparring schools?

...about the virtues of a good devoted Sifu versus a conman running a 'McDojo'?

...about the hardcore fighters that think that because they can overcome art with violence they deserve the label of artist as well?

Too bad we all can't remain 25 years old forever...

[illusionfist]

...about the hardcore fighters that think that because they can overcome art with violence they deserve the label of artist as well?

Beautfiully put Yum Cha!

Peace :D

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Fu-Pau
that and being 'accepted' on an internet bulletin board...
:rolleyes:


Fu-Pau,

Seems like i saw that same quote at another martial arts forum.:D


Kung Lek,

Bro i have no idea why so many seem to have an axe to grind with you or why they choose to do it on this forum?:confused:

You did'nt ask for my help nor do you need it ,but i will respond anyway.:p


Originally posted by WinterPalm
What is going to happen if you decide to one day teach and the person want's to know about your lineage? Are you going to explain to them who your Sifu is? They may or may not research it and contact him but if they do, do you think they'll come back?

WinterPalm,

Kung Lek has since moved on and if somebody has any questions about his lineage, there will be enough people that can vouch for him and the teachings of said lineage..


jeff:)

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by jmd161

Fu-Pau,

Seems like i saw that same quote at another martial arts forum.:D


Yeah... sad really, but it had to be said (on the other forum too), where fitting in with other peoples' views seems to be so much more important to some of the posters, than expressing their own views. Also my pet hate is people who say such things as:

"I haven't seen any decent practitioners of [insert martial art], therefore (by implication) there aren't any"

:)

[jmd161]

Yeah i know what you mean bro.


Well i'll be able to show a little something at the meet up in june.:D





jeff:)

[Fu-Pau]

wish i could see it. will you be filming and posting it? or would that get you in trouble with your sifu?

[David Jamieson]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kung Lek



Dude, what's between me and sifu is between me and sifu. Period.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not so.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are the only one who feels a "need" to say anything about it and that is your issue younger brother, not mine. Sifu and I have spoken, that's all there is to say about it really.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We have not spoken. I did receive an email from you and after reading the first line, I found it to be obnoxious and to which I did not bother to reply to, but we have not spoken. To be an older brother to WP...you have to be a member of the Kwoon and in good standing with myself as Sifu.
WP has an issue due to your actions.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A public forum is entirely an innapropriate place to bring these things up. And from what base do you know the story anyway? Have you talked to me? No.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You say that...yet you reply in public. WP's base is from this forum and your postings as well as from myself...and I am accurate in relaying information. One is only afraid to air laundry if it is dirty. Mine is not...so I have no problem.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
regards. and be careful not to make assumptions about me or any of your older brothers from the kwoon you are at.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


WP has made no assumptions.

GHD


I am not afraid to air anything. You say we didn't talk, through email or otherwise? Fine, believe what you like. You say winterpalm isn't making assumptions? Fine, again believe what you like. THis is your student and you may treat him as you like for as long as he remains so.

I am no longer your student, you are no longer my sifu, I will no longer carry on this fruitless and empty conversation with you.

We're done, live with it. I have no shame or regrets about leaving your kwoon. I have moved on and I am doing fine. Thanks for your concern.

regards
David

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Fu-Pau
wish i could see it. will you be filming and posting it? or would that get you in trouble with your sifu?


Well i had'nt thought about that.That's a great idea bro thanks!:D

Nah i have permission from my sifu already to do everything i'm gonna do there.


So yeah i'll have my sihing film me working against him and everyone else there.Plus the demo i'm going to do of Black Tiger and place it on the forum.



Kung Lek,

You know i got your back bro!! You have a brother and family in Black Tiger.;)

Also i'll add this since i know how you like hip hop slang.

Don't sip that negative juice dawg! Yo back is got fo sho TRU DAT!!! You rollin with the posion clan fo life yo!! Stay tight aight?:D


Holl@ ya boy!


P.S. Ohhh i almost forgot to. Everything is everything ya heard!

jeff:)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek



I am not afraid to air anything. You say we didn't talk, through email or otherwise? Fine, believe what you like. You say winterpalm isn't making assumptions? Fine, again believe what you like. THis is your student and you may treat him as you like for as long as he remains so.

I am no longer your student, you are no longer my sifu, I will no longer carry on this fruitless and empty conversation with you.

We're done, live with it. I have no shame or regrets about leaving your kwoon. I have moved on and I am doing fine. Thanks for your concern.

regards
David

Actually, I disowned you as a student a long time ago due to your attitude and behaviour. That was after giving you many chances.

Speak means verbal communication, not written and we have not spoken...read again.

You put on so many airs...I or anyone else does not need your permission to treat anyone anyway.

Seems you must live with it since you have still been calling me your Sifu just a little while ago on this forum...get over it, I do not want a person such as yourself as my student...my standards are much higher. But your response in your above post is of no surpize to me given your background.

BTW...you use my Lion dance pics on your site which you took from our site...and then have the audacity to tell visitors to ask permission to use them...they are not yours...so remove them from your site or ask me for permission to use them.

Again you are no longer my student and will never be again as far as I am concerned...so do not use anything associated with my Kwoon.

Perhaps someday you will again develop a sense of right from wrong...maybe.

GHD

[MasterKiller]

GHD,
I was browsing your website and wondered why your Black Tiger teacher is anonymous. If it's none of my business, don't worry about it. I was just wondering....

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Thats okay MK. That is the way he wanted it.

GHD

[blooming lotus]

This is not my argument but GHD, I've had hard core disscussion on these boards with you before myself, and now for what evr reason, you and KL have parted ways....deal with it and stop perpetuating bad blood and naming it his!

I guess that's part reason of why, as a sifu I had issue you with you myself. ;)

[jmd161]

This is really an odd situation.

I understand that sifu and student sometimes fall out.It is a given with so many different attitudes being brought together.I have seen many a flamewar here and on other sites between different Lineages.

But......

I have never seen it done in this fasion between sifu and student.I am truly sad by what has taken place here today.GHD i told you once before that i had respect for you and thought you were an ok person.We might or might not agree on things.But hey! It's an internet forum right?

Who always does?

I only mention this here because you have greatly loss face here today with your actions.That was uncalled for on a public forum.I have not read every post by Kung Lek ,but in none have i ever heard/read something he's written that still did'nt show respect to you.I have been in contact with Kung Lek for sometime now ,and he has always stated with respect that you were no longer his sifu.But that he still respected you and fully trusted and followed your teachings without question.

Then for you to come on the World Wide Web and air you dirty laundry was just shameful to say the least.What kind of teacher/sifu does such a thing? Wow that is just unheard of in CMA's even with all the other crap that goes on.

Kung Lek is over it and he has moved on.The only thing he is gulity of is still remaining loyal and respectful to someone he did not have to be either to anymore.It is not my place to say this ,but after what you did it's sure alot more respectful.So now that he is over it and you!!

Can you please get over him and move on yourself?!?!


Kung Lek,

One door and chapter in your life has just closed.But another door is there that leads to a wealth of knowledge.Wai Yee Ho say's that anytime you are ready he will begin your journey into our Lineage of Black Tiger.Although GHD might not be impressed with you Wai Yee Ho thinks you would make an excellent addition to our lineage.That is saying alot not many ppl are excepted into our lineage.Over the last 10 yrs you are only the 4th person that includes me to be considered.

I will travel with my sifu soon to El Paso,California,Hong Kong,and Canada to meet with all Sil Lum Hak Fu Moon brothers of Grandmaster Wong Cheungs Lineage about the Assocation.I look forward to meeting you bro.


GHD you can choose to reply to my post ,but i have nothing more to add or subtract from this thread.I still wish you the best in what you do.I have nothing to gain or lose from this thread.But you on the otherhand.

I think you lost the respect of many a martial artist world wide with that post.I could be wrong?

But.......I doubt it on this one!



jeff:)

[DeathTouch]

So Many BLACK TIGER REJECTS ON ONE PAGE LOL, LMAO..... I can't take it no more man I love researching kung fu history and i have noticed over the last few years the upcropping of so many Phony Black Tiger Practitioners ................ From my understanding Grand Master Wai Hong is the Father of Fu Jow Pai(Hark Fu Mon) and if your not certified from his lineage it must be Shangton Black Tiger which is from the north all this other stuff is silly just let it go guys seriously........GOD BLESS

[jmd161]

Originally posted by DeathTouch
So Many BLACK TIGER REJECTS ON ONE PAGE LOL, LMAO..... I can't take it no more man I love researching kung fu history and i have noticed over the last few years the upcropping of so many Phony Black Tiger Practitioners ................ From my understanding Grand Master Wai Hong is the Father of Fu Jow Pai(Hark Fu Mon) and if your not certified from his lineage it must be Shangton Black Tiger which is from the north all this other stuff is silly just let it go guys seriously........GOD BLESS


You know children should'nt get involved in grown folks discussions.

Walk away little girl you're in the wrong place.



jeff:)

[DeathTouch]

jMD161,

YEP that sounds like the attitude of a fraud take your fakeA** lineage and throw it in souch beach aight barbie you know your sifu's a chump and so does he ill save his face by offering only his initials FW that lil girlie been Lyin since the first day he put on his sash i remember when he started trainin in NYC chinatown he did some other style i think wing chun then ran into Tak Wah and started claiming folklore so run to your sifu and cry no one told you to disrespect ,,,,,,,, i got more dirt on him than u imagine he girl man go do tae bo instead

[jmd161]

Originally posted by DeathTouch
So Many BLACK TIGER REJECTS ON ONE PAGE LOL, LMAO..... I can't take it no more man I love researching kung fu history and i have noticed over the last few years the upcropping of so many Phony Black Tiger Practitioners ................ From my understanding Grand Master Wai Hong is the Father of Fu Jow Pai(Hark Fu Mon) and if your not certified from his lineage it must be Shangton Black Tiger which is from the north all this other stuff is silly just let it go guys seriously........GOD BLESS


You know i take that back i'm not going to be like that.It's obvious you have no knowledge of Sil Lum Hak Fu Moon.

If you do so much research? Then go speak to Wai Hong himself and ask if our Black Tiger is fake.Ask him who C.Kuen Woo is? And why he had C.Kuen Woo demo Black Tiger in New York under the flags of Black Tiger directly from Hong Kong?

People love to open their mouth because they did a little research on a few websites.Fu Jow Pai is Tiger Claw Black Tiger.There is a difference.If you've done research? You should know who Su Hak Fu is and who he taught.If you've done research you should know why some Hung Gar Lineages share forms with us.

If you've done research you know that Black Tiger and Hung Gar are sister styles.If you've done research?

I would'nt be explaining this stuff to you right now would i?!?!


jeff:)

[David Jamieson]

dt- you got nothing man, look harder in regards to both wai hong and wong cheung.

You've been reading websites too much and not actually talking to people, so nuff said about that.

Respect is due to both Wai Hong and Wong Cheung's lineages.

Sifu wes, my website does not deny anyone access to any of the pictures and hasn't for some time. The reason it did before was on account of consideration for you.

I am glad you have expressed your self truly, I feel better for it.
But all pictures on my site came from my camera and cost me my dime to develop and my dime to publish. Not to even begin to mention the work i did restroring the particular lion shown in the pictures or the fact that it's me wearing it.

Until this I have done nothing but uphold your name despite our outage and to ensure that your school is viewed in teh best possible light despite our dis agreeances.

I recognize you as a highly proficient kungfu man and always will do so despite this communications new level.

Like I said earlier in this thread, whatever your thoughts are about me, I am ok with them, that's just the way it is and that's just the way I am.

I bear no ill feelings towards you, but this is a new road for me and I will take it where it goes and will not look back.

Thank you for what kungfu you did teach me though, it has value to me still.

regards
David

[jmd161]

Originally posted by DeathTouch
jMD161,

YEP that sounds like the attitude of a fraud take your fakeA** lineage and throw it in souch beach aight barbie you know your sifu's a chump and so does he ill save his face by offering only his initials FW that lil girlie been Lyin since the first day he put on his sash i remember when he started trainin in NYC chinatown he did some other style i think wing chun then ran into Tak Wah and started claiming folklore so run to your sifu and cry no one told you to disrespect ,,,,,,,, i got more dirt on him than u imagine he girl man go do tae bo instead

Death Touch,


My name is jeff clark i just gave you my sifu's name. What do you have next? Fred Woo is his american name you know that some Chinese ppl do use american names right? Then again what's so big about you knowing FW? I've told everyone from day one on any forum i visit that Fred Woo is my sifu's name.I even had it posted on a website of mine with my other sifu Gus Rubio's name.

And get your facts straight my sifu shared a school with Hung Fut.My sifu has only studied Black Tiger directly from Wong Cheung.He learnt some Choy Lay Fut from his uncle a CLF Master.And some Hung Gar from his grandfather.He has never taught either to anyone.He came to NYC in 1977 he knew no one here in the United States.He worked in resturants and was later asked to teach kung fu in Chinatown.

My sifu was approached by Wai Hong to do a demo of Black Tiger as his guest at Wai Hong's B-Day i believe it was.In either case it was a very big event.It was posted in chinese newspapers in every chinatown across the country.My sifu still has the flags and banners that Wai Hong used for the demo.If you look in one of the two articles that Kung Fu Qigong magazine did.You can see the banners yourself in a few of the pictures.

Now that you know my name and sifu's. What's your's and your sifu's? Or are you gonna hide behind that name?


jeff:)

[jmd161]

It's funny how people want to tell you about what Wai Hong said without ever having talked to Wai Hong.

We give respect to Wai Hong all the time because we have no problems with Wai Hong ,and he none with us.Infact if you speak with Wai Hong you will find that he and Fred Woo are very good friends.

You notice that Fu Jow Pai names fakes and fruads of teaching Fu Jow Pai and even uses some names.Not once ever in the past,present,or anytime in the future will you ever see them use Fred Woo's or Grandmaster Wong Cheungs name anywhere.And also no where do you see or read me claiming Fu Jow Pai Tiger Claw.


Death Touch,

I'm going to post a picture since you do so much research.Name the other people in the picture besides Wong Cheung.

http://www.black-tiger.org/Master%20meeting.gif


Better yet i'll also give you something else to research.Ask Chiu Chi Ling and Chiu Chi Wai who C.Kuen Woo and Wong Cheung are. And if their Black Tiger is real? Ask them both what their father Chiu Kao thought of Kuen Woo's and Wong Cheungs Black Tiger? Seeing that he spent alot of time at the Hong Kong Black Tiger School.



jeff:)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

jmd161...you should really stay out of things that do not concern you...the issue was between myself, KL and my student WP. Going after KL as a student for your Sifu - honestly! It is you who has to get over KL. I have nothing to get over. You guys and your 'get over'...sheesh!...get over what...there is nothing to get over, just posts that need addressing. As far as losing face...please! As far as a public forum...so I defend where I encounter it....I did not choose the venue. With KL's most recent posts (not to mention past ones)...what needed to be said...was said...thats all. What you think of it or me does not matter to me. If others think bad of me...well they do not know the whole story and they do not know me and if they want to think bad of me...then so be it...that is their choice. I have always given support where I can and where it is due.

BL..hardcore discussions with me...really...I do not recall.

David
I have not fully expressed myself here...I did so nicely in an email to you a while back to which you sent a disrespectful reply...at which point I did not bother again...until I encountered some disrespectful posts here. You certainly have a funny way of upholding a name. The only time I have interjected is when you have said disrespectful things...now I could have kept letting it slide...but that is not my way to let it go on for too long.
Regarding the pics..that was only a btw...but to address what you have said...you may have paid for the pics...but the dance is from our kwoon and should not be on your site. Any photographer has to ask permission of the subject...in this case our Lion and Lion Dance in order for them to use the photo...and it is not only you in the lion. You mean the lion you and I rebuilt do you not...only half a truth there. Those pics are also on my site and I do not attempt to prevent anyone from using them if they give credit due (which you did not do), so how did you requiring them to ask your permission be consideration for me? Consideration would have been asking permission to use them...that would have been courteous...and you know what...even with what you have done...I most likely would have said yes.
Walk your road...thats fine, never asked you not to.
Now..if you want to continue this...email or pm me.

GHD

[Fu-Pau]

Fu-Pau: <quietly leaves room, and closes door...>

[jmd161]

Awww


Fu-Pau,


Come on bro you're no fun.:)



You know it's burning you up inside to stay quiet.Come on

let it go!





jeff:)

[Face2Fist]

i m not a kf person, i m just an fan of martial arts

but to my knowledge arent martial artists suppose to be humble and respect each other styles. i

t seems to me that deathtouch is being disrepectful about other styles. what do their teachers do when they see their students disrespecting other styles?

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Face2Fist
i m not a kf person, i m just an fan of martial arts

but to my knowledge arent martial artists suppose to be humble and respect each other styles. i

t seems to me that deathtouch is being disrepectful about other styles. what do their teachers do when they see their students disrespecting other styles?


Face2Fist,

You are right that martial artist are supposed to have martial virtue and be respectful.That is the reason that i came back and posted a different response to Deat Touch.My first response was not right.I should not have replied in that manner.

But like you also pointed out the way he responded to my post is why i replied in the manner i did.Does'nt make it right but none the less that's where my response came from.

It's sad that us martial artist need someone that is not to point out how we are supposed to be accting.I thank you for your reply and i want to say i'm sorry for my actions.At the sametime why we are martial artist.We are also human.So we make mistakes and respond like most other ppl when we're upset sometimes.



jeff :)

[illusionfist]

Well, at least GHD admits he's Cameron and isn't referring to himself in 3rd person anymore...:p

Peace :D

[DeathTouch]

THE FACE IN THE GLASS


When you get what you want in your struggle for self,

And the world makes you ruler for a day,

Just go to a mirror and look at your self,

And see what the glass has to say........


For it isn't your father or mother or wife,

Whose judgement upon you will pass,

The person whose verdict counts most in your life,

Is the one staring back from the glass,

You're the person to please, never mind all the rest,

For you're with you clear up to the end,

And you've passed your most difficult, dangerous test,

If that person in the glass is your friend.

You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years,

And get pats on your back as you pass,

But your final reward will be heartaches and tears,

If you've cheated the face in the glass.

-For All of those who must face the glass-

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by illusionfist
Well, at least GHD admits he's Cameron and isn't referring to himself in 3rd person anymore...:p



There were blatant clues all over the place. Sure took you long enough to figure it out :p and even then it took someone else to say it outright before it even dawned on you. But you know...I have not stated anywhere that I am Sifu Cameron ;) Third person...hmmm...this is what Sifu Cameron has to say...most of us have screen names...that is what a screen name is for...it isn't rocket science you know. Guess I will have to go to my other ID on the board now...and you won't know :cool: ...naw why bother...but on the other hand.....

See you are still to chicken to let us know who you are...so put yer money where your mouth is :D

Peace back at ya!

GHD

[illusionfist]

Well, of course the signs were there. If they weren't, I don't think this discussion would have happened.

As for me being chicken and not revealing who I am- I never said I wasn't somebody or referred to myself in the 3rd person acting like I was a representitive or go-between for somebody else. Not revealing the truth isn't the same as not telling the truth.

Peace :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
Regarding the pics..that was only a btw...but to address what you have said...you may have paid for the pics...but the dance is from our kwoon and should not be on your site. Any photographer has to ask permission of the subject...

So did you ask David's permission to leave the pics on your site after he had left you? Just curious.

Interesting thread happening here....

[Toby]

Yeah, I was interested in the photo thing too, even if it is off-topic. When we had wedding photos done, we never owned the photos, even though we paid for them. They were still his and we had to sign some sort of agreement that meant we couldn't reproduce the ones we bought etc and that he could use any of our shots for whatever he wanted (promoting himself, tradeshows, etc). I'm led to believe this isn't an unusual thing with professional photogs :mad:. Paid a god**** fortune for our shots, too.

[WinterPalm]

This discussion seems done, however, nobody cares to answer the original question. But I think we can see who trains for themself, and who trains for other reasons. If ideals are held higher than egos, like they are supposed to be in the practice of martial arts, then attacking someone that has reached a very high level of proficency for having an opinion about someone that has insulted them, you are only showing the ignorance. We all say that a Sifu is a respectable person and one to look up to, so treating one badly and then praising them is ridiculous. Or say a Sifu has a student, that student then represents the Sifu and the system, but that student makes a fool of himself and possibly his Sifu. Like a child with a responsibility that can't handle it.
All of these issues came up because I questioned Kung Lek's odd behavior, being a martial artist isn't about being tough and cool but having restraint and respect, or we're just gangsta martial artists with overflowing egos and a bit of talent. Humility should be a factor as well.
This was all made public because I questioned Kung Lek, who was questioning someone else's conduct. So I questioned his unprovoked attack on the person and this has blossomed from it. SO don't attack GHD for bringing this into the open or as an inappropriate place, he just stated his feelings as a Sifu, and I suppose they needed to be said.
I think that as being himself, and saying the sort of things he says, Kung Lek has represented his Sifu poorly and thus all of these things were necessary. I can't speak for GHD but I imagine distancing himself from the conduct of Kung Lek has been a good thing.

[David Jamieson]

This discussion seems done, however, nobody cares to answer the original question. But I think we can see who trains for themself, and who trains for other reasons. If ideals are held higher than egos, like they are supposed to be in the practice of martial arts, then attacking someone that has reached a very high level of proficency for having an opinion about someone that has insulted them, you are only showing the ignorance. We all say that a Sifu is a respectable person and one to look up to, so treating one badly and then praising them is ridiculous. Or say a Sifu has a student, that student then represents the Sifu and the system, but that student makes a fool of himself and possibly his Sifu. Like a child with a responsibility that can't handle it.
All of these issues came up because I questioned Kung Lek's odd behavior, being a martial artist isn't about being tough and cool but having restraint and respect, or we're just gangsta martial artists with overflowing egos and a bit of talent. Humility should be a factor as well.
This was all made public because I questioned Kung Lek, who was questioning someone else's conduct. So I questioned his unprovoked attack on the person and this has blossomed from it. SO don't attack GHD for bringing this into the open or as an inappropriate place, he just stated his feelings as a Sifu, and I suppose they needed to be said.
I think that as being himself, and saying the sort of things he says, Kung Lek has represented his Sifu poorly and thus all of these things were necessary. I can't speak for GHD but I imagine distancing himself from the conduct of Kung Lek has been a good thing.

This was made public because you assumed what I have done is wrong and that your sifu is right and you never said word one to me.

I still respect Sifu Cameron as a martial artist, but i don't agree with his perspective that I was obnoxious. THere is a huge difference there.

It wasn't me who opened an old wound wp it was you. I will defend at the opening as well.

If you know anything about anything which you don't, because you are bound to sifu Cameron and therefore have to take his side, you are blinding yourself.

and by the way, I have always since day 1 been upfront about who i am here and what I've trained and if you read enough of my posts you will find that I have not disrespected sifu cameron in any of them.

this is indeed the first time i have ever retorted to him publicly.
But if you want to drag this out, I'll have to tell you that I am reallyt not interested in playing stupid little head games with and regarding ghosts from the past.

regards
David

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by illusionfist
Well, of course the signs were there. If they weren't, I don't think this discussion would have happened.

As for me being chicken and not revealing who I am- I never said I wasn't somebody or referred to myself in the 3rd person acting like I was a representitive or go-between for somebody else. Not revealing the truth isn't the same as not telling the truth.



Neither did I...Not once did I say I spoke with Sifu C and this is what he said....what I said was This is what Sifu C has to say...no problem in that guy... Now if your nitpicking and perpetual obsession with this is all done...have a nice day....btw you still have not said who you are!

GHD

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek


This was made public because you assumed what I have done is wrong and that your sifu is right and you never said word one to me.

I still respect Sifu Cameron as a martial artist, but i don't agree with his perspective that I was obnoxious. THere is a huge difference there.

It wasn't me who opened an old wound wp it was you. I will defend at the opening as well.

If you know anything about anything which you don't, because you are bound to sifu Cameron and therefore have to take his side, you are blinding yourself.

and by the way, I have always since day 1 been upfront about who i am here and what I've trained and if you read enough of my posts you will find that I have not disrespected sifu cameron in any of them.

this is indeed the first time i have ever retorted to him publicly.
But if you want to drag this out, I'll have to tell you that I am reallyt not interested in playing stupid little head games with and regarding ghosts from the past.

regards
David

I said to email me or pm me if you wanted this to continue...but since you still choose this venue...I can post the e mail you sent me if you wish...what you say is not true or accurate...I can also show you your posts that refute your statement of not being disrespectful in them. Yes in others you were okay...but you have this love hate relationship to myself where one post is okay and another is disrespectful...and it is not the first time you have "retorted to me publicly" and WP did not open up anything, rather it was your post to him that had me wondering why you would refer to him as a brother when you clearly did not want to be associated with my kwoon and so I post "a student has to be in good standing with the Sifu and kwoon to refer to somone as a younger brother", then you get all in a huff and write a rude post telling me to "get over it" which forced me to say I disowned you as a student a long time ago due to your attitude and behaviour and there is nothing left to get over...now you still continue with untruths...just let it go....if you were not interested in this continuing then why post in this thread again.

GHD

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Serpent


So did you ask David's permission to leave the pics on your site after he had left you? Just curious.


:confused:
The lion dance is from my kwoon, I allowed the pics to be taken...I also reimbursed him by taking out to lunch, free t shirts etc for using his camera and costs associated with developing...besides he was a student in my kwoon...I taught him lion dance and he was performing it for my kwoon...pics belong to myself and the kwoon...all he required was a little courtesy to ask if he could post them on his site.
This no big deal really...like I said it was just a btw.

GHD

[David Jamieson]

Sifu Wes-

This cycle needs to end.

I did answer your email to me and I will admit, it was in short form. This was because I knew we did not see eye to eye.

You disowned me from your school and that is fine. These things happen for these very reasons. I am not going to pass judgement on you for the decisions you make in regards to your school and your student body.

It is your school after all.

I understand full well that the Kungfu you teach is authentic and genuine and completely applicable both at a self defence level and at a health level.

I will no longer refer to any of your students as brothers, they are not my brothers and I don't seek their respect. They can expect the same from me.

As for ambivalence, I think that is a two sided coin. But again, that is neither here nor there anymore. I do not wish to continue this and will leave it at this.

You and your kwoon will continue on to preserve the arts that you practice and teach and that is what is most important. My perspective on it doesn't matter in the least.

I will remove any and all inferences to you and your school and your kungfu from my site at the earliest possible convenience.

Regards
David

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Truely a sad situation.

GHD

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon


:confused:
The lion dance is from my kwoon, I allowed the pics to be taken...I also reimbursed him by taking out to lunch, free t shirts etc for using his camera and costs associated with developing...besides he was a student in my kwoon...I taught him lion dance and he was performing it for my kwoon...pics belong to myself and the kwoon...all he required was a little courtesy to ask if he could post them on his site.
This no big deal really...like I said it was just a btw.

GHD

Hmm. Interestingly that you makes you something of a hypocrite.

Seems to me, from a purely unbiased perspective, that David is being more straight here than you are. Anyway, it's your problem, so why don't you both stop posting it all over a public forum and either take it up in private or let it go.

[Fu-Pau]

Sheesh...
Are you guys senior kung fu practitioners? or school children?
"did not"
"did too"
"did not"
"did so"
.... good grief!

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Serpent


Hmm. Interestingly that you makes you something of a hypocrite.

Seems to me, from a purely unbiased perspective, that David is being more straight here than you are. Anyway, it's your problem, so why don't you both stop posting it all over a public forum and either take it up in private or let it go.
The topic you speak of is not that important but...I don't know how on earth you draw that conclusion and I hardly think you are unbiased... recall when you wanted some other guy on this forum to give me a slap for you. No one forced you here...don't like it...don't read it. The venue was not chosen by myself though. I am finished with this thread.

GHD

[Kymus]

My father, when I was very young, did Kempo and Wing Chun. He got me interested in the Martial Arts and since then it's been a passion for me. I do all this because I love it and it brings me much joy. Oh yeah, and coincidentally, 99% of my male friends train in Martial Arts also.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

The topic you speak of is not that important but...I don't know how on earth you draw that conclusion and I hardly think you are unbiased... recall when you wanted some other guy on this forum to give me a slap for you. No one forced you here...don't like it...don't read it. The venue was not chosen by myself though. I am finished with this thread.

GHD

I am unbiased, as I don't particularly like Kung Lek or yourself - you both rub me up the wrong way quite often, so it's been quite amusing to see you squabble like old women on here. However, you seem to be contradicting yourself here and David doesn't. That's all I was pointing out.

I don't recall asking someone to give you a slap for me - but I'll take your word for it. Maybe you can hook up with David and slap each other. It would probably make everybody feel better. ;)

[Ben Gash]

Serpent, it was me you asked to give him a slap when he challenged me (or not, whatever).
I'm finding this very amusing.Of course poor David will never get to learn sets nine and ten now :(

[Serpent]

Ah, righto, Ben. Man, I must have taken a few too many blows to the head - my memory is starting to fail! ;)

This is pretty funny, huh. Wonder if it'll end or if GHD will insist on getting in the last word again?

[WinterPalm]

Serpent, it was me you asked to give him a slap when he challenged me (or not, whatever).

Ben, what is this supposed to mean. You know that GHD did not challenge you, if he did, it would not have been on a public forum and you would have known. He is a very clear and straight forward man. I don't think Sifu's take challenges lightly, as well he does not seem like the person to utter such a childish thing as a challenge.
You know full well the misconception of his earlier statement and raise it here. Why? Maybe to make him look bad? However, you only succedd in making yourself look childish. Your opinions are yours and if you dislike someone, for whatever reasons, that is your story, but to come out and say something like that is in poor taste.

Maybe instead of saying these things you could contribute to the topic at hand.:eek:

[Ben Gash]

Winterpalm STFU when you don't know what the hell you are talking about. GHD made a challenge and then backed down when he realised it was going to be met. As he suggested at the time I spoke to my Sifu about what he meant by discussing things in the old way, and he said "a fight".
A clear and straightforward man? GHD appeared on this forum (under another handle) 3 or 4 years ago (and talking about himself in the third person even then) and made a series of highly inflammatory remarks built from lies and slander regarding my Sifu, and was then forced by my sifu to issue a contrite apology via Kung Lek!!! The whole affair was absolutely farcical.
Are these the actions of a clear and straightforward man?
Why did I bring the challenge up? I didn't, GHD did, as he obviously still has ill feeling towards Serpent over the affair (he must still have ill feeling torwards me, but he knows I'm willing to trade blows with him), and I had to clarify for Serpent where the problem lay.
Why don't I offer anything constructive to the discussion? There is nothing to discuss here! This whole thing is just a p*ssing match between GHD and Kung Lek.
I could make some statements about GHD, but they would undermine Kung Lek in a matrix style "most people aren't ready to be told" kind of way, and unlike yourself (winterpalm) and GHD, I won't put that kind of stuff on an open forum.
How's this for a constructive suggestion? Kung Lek, take up JMD161's offer, I feel it would be in your best interests as a person, a martial artist and as a sifu (whether now or in the future).
BEN

[Gold Horse Dragon]

What a bunch of horse pucky. As far as your Sifu...making me do anything via KL...man what drugs are you on anyway...you have one big imagination there kid. Your Sifu is posting here...lets see what he has to say regarding your statements. Now I can tell you he is not going to back up what you say as fact...because it is just in your imagination regarding the nature of the posts, anyone making anyone do anything and the third person thing. As far as a challenge regarding you - I wouldn't waste my time...what WP said regarding that is fact and anyone else can check that thread. You need to get some maturity...Like I said before Laddie- you do not understand traditional. I know however that your Sifu does, so I highly doubt he would have said that if you had explained the post to him correctly...but if you still want to strut your juvenile excess testosterone...well then Laddie... you know where my kwoon is, days and hours of operation...now is that plain enough for your mind. Now you can chose to continue to act immaturely or you can act like a grown up...your choice.

GHD

[Serpent]

Aha! I remember it now - the whole discussion about settling things the old way. And here we are again - life is truly cyclical.

So Ben, when are you flying from the UK to the US to give this guy a slap then? ;)

[CaptinPickAxe]

...crap...all of it...

[Ben Gash]

:cool:

[DeathTouch]

Hey GHD <


You come off as a sh*t head you sound like a sh*t head and you should be ashamed of yourself as well as your ill legit kwoon. You call yourself a sifu and your on a forum crying like a baby YOUR SUCH A FRAUD AND DONT EVEN REALIZE IT.

When the tiger is gone the monkey is king. (guess who's the monkey P*ssy) LOL

[blooming lotus]

boys :rolleyes: :p

[DeathTouch]

Blooming Lotus ,

your right sometimes its not worth the carpeltunnel , thanks for your observation

[WinterPalm]

Deathtouch, you are way out of line. I can't believe I'm posting to this, I don't think what you've said deserves a response, the words say enough about you, on the other hand, you are insulting my Sifu and doing so in such a disrespectful and disgusting way.
I only hope your Sifu isn't aware of how you conduct yourself, or maybe he should be notified:D , if you have a sifu, that is.:eek:

[Serpent]

*pulls up deck chair and popcorn*

[DeathTouch]

so dont reply Winter Palm

[freehand]

Quote:
___________________
I mean I understand the importance of history and all but if someone is looking to join your school what should matter is how good your training is not who you trained with.
_______________________

Problem is, when the beginner looks into the schools in his area, he may not be able to evaluate what he's looking at. One way to get around that is to show that the teacher is certified by a previous generation sifu who had established his reputation.

Not all schools spar. My foundation art, Kung Fu San Soo, is a traditional fighting art which does not spar; we believe that sparring teaches bad habits. But my teacher did lead every class and walked around as the students practiced, demonstrating the techniques. No one doubted his ability. And he worked out frequently with the upper belts during class, if it wasn't crowded.

He teacher was Jimmy H. Woo, who in his youth was an enforcer for his great-uncle, the governor of Guangdong province. Being certified by Jimmy Woo meant something.

Dang this cold virus! No working out this week...